Now that we finished Gatekeeper and Atheon, yeah, it’s a great reprisal of a great raid. The new Oracle mechanics are great, and I genuinely love the Relic juggling for Gatekeeper.

What I was able to do was really fun (up to Gatekeepers), and having the difficulty cranked up with Contest mode was definitely what I like. It really forced us to iterate and make those small adjustments that add up to success.

The mechanic changes were cool (I'm excited about what I've read about Gatekeepers/Atheon) and seem pretty natural. The improved graphics and sound were great - the thunder echoing in the distance as the encounters ramped up was especially noticeable, and not something I remembered from the original. Being forced to warp through the door at the end of the jumping puzzle was a little disappointing though, did that happen to everyone?

I’ve seen footage of that door opening in the new version, and it looks awesome. Not sure why we all got the Joining Allies thing, but it was a bummer to have that happen on the first run.

Being forced to warp through the door at the end of the jumping puzzle was a little disappointing though, did that happen to everyone?

We walked through as a group, actually, and it was pretty impressive. I didn't know there was a Joining Allies mechanic, but I'm glad we inadvertently avoided it!

Opening the door feels like it has more enemies in numbers, and also adds a Cyclops at each plate that wreaks havoc.

Confluxes are shorter waves but add Wyverns (big new powerful Vex chicken things added in Beyond Light).

Oracles now must be shot in order. The Oracles ring out in sequence twice, then they all spawn at once and must be killed in order. It starts with 3 spawning, then adds 1 each round until the full 7 are up. Templar is basically the same, only keeps the Oracles needing to be killed in correct sequence, although only 3 spawn. The Relic no longer cleanses in the Templar encounter, so you have to use the pool in the center. You can no longer shoot yourself out of the detain bubble and must have someone else shoot you out.

Gorgon maze is basically the same. There are 3 new switches that must be found and shot to open the door to the secret chest.

Gatekeeper is now juggling the Relic between right and left Portals to kill a shielded Minotaur that can only be killed by the Relic who is going to sacrifice at Confluxes in each side. You do this a few times until the central Conflux spawns in the present, then defend it from a few waves and done.

Atheon is again mostly the same, but it carries over Oracles needing to be killed in order. The home team watches the Oracles spawn in and calls out the order for the away team to shoot. There are three rounds of three Oracles before damage phase. Detain carries over here, making the center platform strat a bit more dangerous, as if someone gets detained there, it detains everyone and no one is left to shoot anyone else out.

I think that’s it. It looks stunning, the revamped Vault looks incredible

Regarding the updated mechanics: I’m torn. At first glance, all the changes seem fine or even good. But my concern is that they’ve pushed VoG into the same callout-heavy direction that many subsequent raids have gone, and in my experience that has a negative impact on the long-term enjoyment factor of a raid. I’m of the belief that the first few times through a raid should be an exciting challenge, but at a certain point they work best as a fun way to socialize with friends while chasing sweet loot. Raids like the original VoG, Crota, Scourge of the Past, and Deep Stone Crypt all work beautifully in this regard. They’re just simple and loose enough that an experienced raid group can relax a bit, chat and laugh together in between callouts. But when raids become too mechanically ornate and callout-heavy (Last Wish, King’s Fall, Crown of Sorrow, Spire of Stars), the simple need to keep comms clear for vital callouts reduces the ability to socialize as a group. It makes completing the raid the first time feel like a greater accomplishment, but greatly diminishes my desire to repeat it over and over with friends.

You definitely have a point there. As a musician, though, I thought you'd breeze through those :p

I feel like they need a middle ground. Contest can be annoyingly difficult. Normal mode always feels like a cakewalk. Which, there’s room for that. But I always hate where raids end up, where everyone has their role and it ends up being an hour of mostly just standing in the e cactus correct position, killing enemies as they spawn because we know exactly when and where they’re going to come from.

I still think raids need more combat difficulty, and Contest provides that. I think Contest with a full set of raid armor with raid mods might approach the sweet spot.

Although I still wish we could see a raid that was more combat focused in general. I’d like to see combat become the primary focus, with something mechanical as an extra thing to manage (I’ll always go back to Skolas here, which I still believe is one of the best blends of combat and extra mechanics to manage). As it stands, the mechanics of the puzzle are the focus, while combat is just the thing that happens around the edges, and the combat already feels fairly trivial in Normal mode VoG.

Man, I guess when they redo king's fall it's gonna sound like this listening to all the new callouts:

I’ll get the contest mode gripe out of the way first: I like the fact that an extra challenging version of the raid with a prestigious reward exists on day 1, but I think “normal mode” should also be active and selectable. Let the sweats and the streamers go hard with challenge mode, and let everyone else who just wants to enjoy the raid go into normal mode.

I think the world's first hoopla (free advertising) interferes with that idea.

That out of the way, VoG is still a fantastic raid. The updated visuals are gorgeous, and the loot is exciting. There’s an atmosphere of mystery and exploration that no other raid matches, IMO.

Regarding the updated mechanics: I’m torn. At first glance, all the changes seem fine or even good. But my concern is that they’ve pushed VoG into the same callout-heavy direction that many subsequent raids have gone, and in my experience that has a negative impact on the long-term enjoyment factor of a raid. I’m of the belief that the first few times through a raid should be an exciting challenge, but at a certain point they work best as a fun way to socialize with friends while chasing sweet loot. Raids like the original VoG, Crota, Scourge of the Past, and Deep Stone Crypt all work beautifully in this regard. They’re just simple and loose enough that an experienced raid group can relax a bit, chat and laugh together in between callouts. But when raids become too mechanically ornate and callout-heavy (Last Wish, King’s Fall, Crown of Sorrow, Spire of Stars), the simple need to keep comms clear for vital callouts reduces the ability to socialize as a group. It makes completing the raid the first time feel like a greater accomplishment, but greatly diminishes my desire to repeat it over and over with friends.

It’s way too early for me to know where this new VoG lands on that spectrum. But it certainly requires more callouts than the original version, and I’m not sure I like that, long term.

Don't disagree with any of the rest of your post. My two favorite raid experiences are doing it blind and being able to do it nearly blindfolded.

Thanks for the invite last night! So... I'm really terrible at reorienting myself in the Atheon fight for the callouts. Aside from feeling useless there, I'm really happy with the changes.

I’m still not sure I could effectively reorient the call-outs in my head to shoot them from the entrance platform. And I’m usually pretty good at being able to keep track of that sort of thing.

I could make the reoriented callouts from outside, but the perspective from within the portal is just skewed enough that even figuring out which Oracle is the correct one is more difficult than I would have expected.

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I mean, all I had to do was run an Atheon checkpoint once. Guess I should run the rest of the raid too.

Some people got Hawkmoon their first time too.

I mean, all I had to do was run an Atheon checkpoint once. Guess I should run the rest of the raid too.

Someone I was running with last night did the “skip final fight” cheese, got Mythoclast on their first “run”, genuinely had no idea what it was, and was also the only one who ended up getting it.

Here’s hoping Bungie doesn’t fix that cheese until I get mine. :P