I expect better :-( (Off-Topic)
by kidtsunami 
, Atlanta, GA, Thursday, May 01, 2014, 09:07 (3866 days ago)
Yeah, this is just sad.
Bungie banning someone (from Bungie.net) for 8 months for posting about racism in light of the other obnoxious abuse that goes on there is concerning.
Found it here.
I understand that the mods aren't technically Bungie, but they're given power by Bungie. I don't think the solution to addressing the problematic and hostile environment over there is to ban people who fight problematic and hostile things.
Apologies for raining on the post Strike reveal glow.
I expect better :-(
by TDSpiral 
, TDS Gaming Shack, WA, Thursday, May 01, 2014, 09:55 (3865 days ago) @ kidtsunami
Huh?
So someone posted an article they wrote about racism in advertisement to Bungie.net (for some reason- don't really see the relevancy to Bungie or its games), she got banned for 8 months, and now she's accusing Bungie of being racist and feeling threatened. Am I missing something to this?
She realizes Bungie isn't one white dude, right? This just seems like some real scummy shit she's pulling, honestly. Social justice is an important issue, but its people like her that really fuck things up for everybody.
Maybe I'm off-base here though, because it seems like there are some details missing. Either way, the people that are just taking her word for it and saying things like "way to blow it Bungie, not getting my money"... I have no kind words for them.
I expect better :-(
by kidtsunami , Atlanta, GA, Thursday, May 01, 2014, 10:40 (3865 days ago) @ TDSpiral
edited by kidtsunami, Thursday, May 01, 2014, 11:03
Huh?
So someone posted an article they wrote about racism in advertisement to Bungie.net (for some reason- don't really see the relevancy to Bungie or its games), she got banned for 8 months, and now she's accusing Bungie of being racist and feeling threatened. Am I missing something to this?
Hmm, lost this post when DBO went down. Going to lists to make it quicker.
- Reason she was given for getting banned was "Disrespect/Threaten"
- The community, moderated by the same people who banned her, has routinely harassed her without repurcussions
- If Off-Topic was the reason for the banning, *ouch* plenty of people on Bungie.net talking about nonsense better watch out
She realizes Bungie isn't one white dude, right? This just seems like some real scummy shit she's pulling, honestly. Social justice is an important issue, but its people like her that really fuck things up for everybody.
- Not about who works for Bungie
- About the community that they moderate on their own website
- I don't see how "people like her really fuck things up for everybody", I think it's the bigots who say racist or sexist things clowning around in the gaming community that fuck things up for everybody
Maybe I'm off-base here though, because it seems like there are some details missing. Either way, the people that are just taking her word for it and saying things like "way to blow it Bungie, not getting my money"... I have no kind words for them.
yeah, not concerned with people saying "not getting my money", I'm more concerned about the idea that the people who need policing are the ones who are standing up against injustice.
EDIT: Originally had a note that she's welcome to be on my fireteam anytime, I throw down with people who stand up against obnoxious crap
I expect better :-(
by TDSpiral , TDS Gaming Shack, WA, Thursday, May 01, 2014, 20:18 (3865 days ago) @ kidtsunami
Huh?
So someone posted an article they wrote about racism in advertisement to Bungie.net (for some reason- don't really see the relevancy to Bungie or its games), she got banned for 8 months, and now she's accusing Bungie of being racist and feeling threatened. Am I missing something to this?
Hmm, lost this post when DBO went down. Going to lists to make it quicker.
- Reason she was given for getting banned was "Disrespect/Threaten"
- The community, moderated by the same people who banned her, has routinely harassed her without repurcussions
- If Off-Topic was the reason for the banning, *ouch* plenty of people on Bungie.net talking about nonsense better watch out
She realizes Bungie isn't one white dude, right? This just seems like some real scummy shit she's pulling, honestly. Social justice is an important issue, but its people like her that really fuck things up for everybody.
- Not about who works for Bungie
- About the community that they moderate on their own website
- I don't see how "people like her really fuck things up for everybody", I think it's the bigots who say racist or sexist things clowning around in the gaming community that fuck things up for everybody
Maybe I'm off-base here though, because it seems like there are some details missing. Either way, the people that are just taking her word for it and saying things like "way to blow it Bungie, not getting my money"... I have no kind words for them.
yeah, not concerned with people saying "not getting my money", I'm more concerned about the idea that the people who need policing are the ones who are standing up against injustice.EDIT: Originally had a note that she's welcome to be on my fireteam anytime, I throw down with people who stand up against obnoxious crap
I apologize, I was in a salty mood when I posted this morning, so my tone was definitely much more negative than I intended. I understand why she would be upset that a lot of people get away with some hostile shit on Bnet- that community, no more than most gaming communities, has a lot of bile. Her ban, for all I know, does not seem deserved.
However, I did want to readdress what I said about "fucking things up for everybody" with posts like these. I feel like many "social justicers" trivialize MANY issues and that causes some folks to not take anything they say seriously. They're doing more harm than good at that point. I don't believe that she's purposefully trying to be unhelpful, but her post about this just made me think that she's the kind of person who likes to stir up controversy.
I expect better :-(
by kidtsunami , Atlanta, GA, Friday, May 02, 2014, 01:39 (3865 days ago) @ TDSpiral
Huh?
So someone posted an article they wrote about racism in advertisement to Bungie.net (for some reason- don't really see the relevancy to Bungie or its games), she got banned for 8 months, and now she's accusing Bungie of being racist and feeling threatened. Am I missing something to this?
Hmm, lost this post when DBO went down. Going to lists to make it quicker.
- Reason she was given for getting banned was "Disrespect/Threaten"
- The community, moderated by the same people who banned her, has routinely harassed her without repurcussions
- If Off-Topic was the reason for the banning, *ouch* plenty of people on Bungie.net talking about nonsense better watch out
She realizes Bungie isn't one white dude, right? This just seems like some real scummy shit she's pulling, honestly. Social justice is an important issue, but its people like her that really fuck things up for everybody.
- Not about who works for Bungie
- About the community that they moderate on their own website
- I don't see how "people like her really fuck things up for everybody", I think it's the bigots who say racist or sexist things clowning around in the gaming community that fuck things up for everybody
Maybe I'm off-base here though, because it seems like there are some details missing. Either way, the people that are just taking her word for it and saying things like "way to blow it Bungie, not getting my money"... I have no kind words for them.
yeah, not concerned with people saying "not getting my money", I'm more concerned about the idea that the people who need policing are the ones who are standing up against injustice.EDIT: Originally had a note that she's welcome to be on my fireteam anytime, I throw down with people who stand up against obnoxious crap
I apologize, I was in a salty mood when I posted this morning, so my tone was definitely much more negative than I intended. I understand why she would be upset that a lot of people get away with some hostile shit on Bnet- that community, no more than most gaming communities, has a lot of bile. Her ban, for all I know, does not seem deserved.
However, I did want to readdress what I said about "fucking things up for everybody" with posts like these. I feel like many "social justicers" trivialize MANY issues and that causes some folks to not take anything they say seriously. They're doing more harm than good at that point. I don't believe that she's purposefully trying to be unhelpful, but her post about this just made me think that she's the kind of person who likes to stir up controversy.
Cool, I apologize also, to Bungie, DBO, and you. I got worked up and I came to the place where I could express my frustration. I'm happy with the responses I got and I'm consistently impressed with the way Bungie handles some of the touchier subjects (hence why I expect so much...).
I'll try to keep a cooler head from now on.
I expect better :-(
by Grizzlei , Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Friday, May 02, 2014, 10:11 (3864 days ago) @ TDSpiral
However, I did want to readdress what I said about "fucking things up for everybody" with posts like these. I feel like many "social justicers" trivialize MANY issues and that causes some folks to not take anything they say seriously. They're doing more harm than good at that point. I don't believe that she's purposefully trying to be unhelpful, but her post about this just made me think that she's the kind of person who likes to stir up controversy.
The best thing about social justice concerns is that it does in fact stir up controversy. Controversy gets people talking and makes them aware of issues that they might not have been privy to before or have previously misunderstood. It's the efforts of people like Jay in the past and today that allows me to live just a little bit more comfortably in any place I may find myself, being a woman, who's also transgender and bisexual.
We "trivialize" these issues because our detractors and assorted bigots tirelessly highlight the fact that they don't know anything with their purposefully ignorant views, but also scour biased sources to assemble an argument. Thinking they're not worthy of being taken seriously because they do pick apart these issues line by line is pretty disheartening. It's just one of many methods used by activists with proven results.
The best thing about social justice concerns is that it does in fact stir up controversy. Controversy gets people talking and makes them aware of issues that they might not have been privy to before or have previously misunderstood. It's the efforts of people like Jay in the past and today that allows me to live just a little bit more comfortably in any place I may find myself, being a woman, who's also transgender and bisexual.
<3 this post (though I know nothing about Jay)
Controversy always happens when you talk outside of what's accepted as "mainstream" or "common sense." It's a feature, not a bug.
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No.
The best thing about social justice concerns is that it does in fact stir up controversy.
That is basically a reworded "There's no such thing as bad publicity."
Controversy gets people talking and makes them aware of issues that they might not have been privy to before or have previously misunderstood.
The problem is that nobody starts each debate anew. If you pursue frivolous and outright ridiculous fights under the banner of "Social Justice", then people are going to remember that. It'll take MORE work to bring them around the second time.
No.
by Grizzlei , Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Saturday, May 03, 2014, 11:55 (3863 days ago) @ Quirel
edited by Grizzlei, Saturday, May 03, 2014, 11:59
That is basically a reworded "There's no such thing as bad publicity."
It's basically not, actually, unless you believe raising concern is improper and detrimental unless it adheres to a particular set of circumstances which others have deemed appropriate.
The problem is that nobody starts each debate anew. If you pursue frivolous and outright ridiculous fights under the banner of "Social Justice", then people are going to remember that. It'll take MORE work to bring them around the second time.
It's hard to start each debate anew when the injustice persists around the clock, often with verbally abusive or mentally and physically violent outcomes to many situations that people face persists daily. Frivolous is totally right. Outright ridiculous? Absolutely! I shouldn't have to fight for respect and equal treatment against people who face little to no challenge in their lives. We raise concerns with whatever tools and methods we can. Why should we care about what they think if they expect us to "bring them around the second time" to ensure their support in movements for equality and respect? Support like that is of little value when it is so easily swayed.
Having a respectful debate is more than often pointless no matter how civil your opponent acts in spite of their intolerance. Their arguments are based in baseless lies and accusations, and in ages old bigotry and ignorance. Nobody should have to fight for their favor in an attempt to sway deeply embedded feelings that have long since done their damage. That's up to them and them alone if they want to change. Not us.
Wait
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, May 03, 2014, 13:38 (3863 days ago) @ Grizzlei
Having a respectful debate is more than often pointless no matter how civil your opponent acts in spite of their intolerance. Their arguments are based in baseless lies and accusations, and in ages old bigotry and ignorance. Nobody should have to fight for their favor in an attempt to sway deeply embedded feelings that have long since done their damage. That's up to them and them alone if they want to change. Not us.
The nihilistic in me screams "What's the point, then?".
Having a respectful debate is more than often pointless no matter how civil your opponent acts in spite of their intolerance. Their arguments are based in baseless lies and accusations, and in ages old bigotry and ignorance. Nobody should have to fight for their favor in an attempt to sway deeply embedded feelings that have long since done their damage. That's up to them and them alone if they want to change. Not us.
The nihilistic in me screams "What's the point, then?".
Hope for a better tomorrow, for the ones that come after me.
No.
It's basically not, actually, unless you believe raising concern is improper and detrimental unless it adheres to a particular set of circumstances which others have deemed appropriate.
If civility and restraint can prevent friendly fire, lynch mobs, and censorship committees, then yes. It's long overdue.
I shouldn't have to fight for respect and equal treatment against people who face little to no challenge in their lives. We raise concerns with whatever tools and methods we can.
And some tools and methods aren't worth using because they damage you more than your opponents.
Come on. Surely there's been some demonstration you've seen by someone on your side, who you wish had stayed home that day.
Why should we care about what they think if they expect us to "bring them around the second time" to ensure their support in movements for equality and respect? Support like that is of little value when it is so easily swayed.
Because that 'easily swayed' support is what made the civil rights movement so successful in the first place.
Having a respectful debate is more than often pointless no matter how civil your opponent acts in spite of their intolerance. Their arguments are based in baseless lies and accusations, and in ages old bigotry and ignorance.
It's a basic principle of debating that you're not trying to convince your opponent, you're trying to convince your audience. Civility gets you further than pure outrage.
Nobody should have to fight for their favor in an attempt to sway deeply embedded feelings that have long since done their damage. That's up to them and them alone if they want to change. Not us.
But you're still fighting, because those deeply embedded feelings are worth swaying.
I expect better
by General Vagueness , The Vault of Sass, Monday, May 05, 2014, 11:11 (3861 days ago) @ Grizzlei
The best thing about social justice concerns is that it does in fact stir up controversy.
I would think the bet thing about social justice concerns is that someone is actually concerned, or, you know, getting them addressed and actually increasing social justice.
To address this and a bunch of posts, I think people are missing what TDSpiral meant (which is understandable because he could've been significantly clearer). It seemed to me like he was saying he thought this person (the one with the article) was more interested in creating controversy than getting results, and it seems like Deej said that was the case, at least in this person's actions on b.net.
We "trivialize" these issues because our detractors and assorted bigots tirelessly highlight the fact that they don't know anything with their purposefully ignorant views, but also scour biased sources to assemble an argument. Thinking they're not worthy of being taken seriously because they do pick apart these issues line by line is pretty disheartening. It's just one of many methods used by activists with proven results.
I don't know what anyone in this thread means by "trivialize"; it sounds like a different usage than I'm used to but I can't really tell. From the usage I'm used to, that person (the one who got banned mistakenly) was doing the opposite of trivializing issues (i.e. shrinking, minimizing, belittling, representing them as insignificant), if anything she may (she just may) have been portraying them as bigger than they are-- but then, when you do that consistently, it might make something seem trivial to others, because they get used to it being yelled at them and they group it in with the background noise of life.
I expect better
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Monday, May 05, 2014, 11:21 (3861 days ago) @ General Vagueness
...but then, when you do that consistently, it might make something seem trivial to others, because they get used to it being yelled at them and they group it in with the background noise of life.
Yeah this has happened to me several times in life. I know several activists who will always tell me about the latest cause they are fighting for, which is great, but if that kind of thing is ALL they talk about it is very hard to keep caring. That doesn't mean I don't care about their issues, it just means I don't care to listen to them constantly talk about them.
Wait...?
Taking note that I'm just skimming off the top here...
Why would you go to Bungie.net to make a post about racism? ಠ_ಠ
Taking note that I'm just skimming off the top here...
Why would you go to Bungie.net to make a post about racism? ಠ_ಠ
Maybe it's a hostile toxic environment that could use some cleaning up. And the people who should get banned are people who drop antagonistic racist/sexist comments like it's fun.
ಠ_ಠ
Wait...?
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, May 01, 2014, 11:13 (3865 days ago) @ kidtsunami
So she is indeed threatning the staus quo in there. :p
Yeah, I'm not sure how to feel about this. I have no idea what the post was like nor how the reaction to it was, but 8 months does sound excessive even for the twistiest version of what she said she posted.
So she is indeed threatning the staus quo in there. :p
Haha nice.
Yeah, I'm not sure how to feel about this. I have no idea what the post was like nor how the reaction to it was, but 8 months does sound excessive even for the twistiest version of what she said she posted.
Yeah, I'm definitely conflicted. I'm a huge Bungie fan and know there are a lot of sweet amazing people that work there. I just also appreciate that they are in a position of enormous power in the game community and I firmly believe that those with the most power are the ones with the greatest responsibility to set a positive example for the community.
I see the ban not as a malicious act, but rather a very unfortunate part of a poorly managed system that makes the community hostile and fairly unpleasant.
Wait...?
by Grizzlei , Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Friday, May 02, 2014, 10:26 (3864 days ago) @ kidtsunami
edited by Grizzlei, Friday, May 02, 2014, 10:47
Yeah, I'm definitely conflicted. I'm a huge Bungie fan and know there are a lot of sweet amazing people that work there. I just also appreciate that they are in a position of enormous power in the game community and I firmly believe that those with the most power are the ones with the greatest responsibility to set a positive example for the community.
I see the ban not as a malicious act, but rather a very unfortunate part of a poorly managed system that makes the community hostile and fairly unpleasant.
I've long since disassociated Bungie and the wonderful talented people who work under their banner with the forums they host and the people they charge to maintain the peace there. Most posters I see are the typical immature, bashful and often intolerant bunch you'll find on any large forum, particularly ones for gaming. Thoughtful arguments, like those Jay has posted repeatedly often concerning despicable behavior on Bungie.net, are buried under a mountain of screaming by those people who she's raising concern over.
That's why I prefer it here and in other tight-knit communities where acting stupidly and the reputation that follows it carries more weight.
Yeah, I'm definitely conflicted. I'm a huge Bungie fan and know there are a lot of sweet amazing people that work there. I just also appreciate that they are in a position of enormous power in the game community and I firmly believe that those with the most power are the ones with the greatest responsibility to set a positive example for the community.
I see the ban not as a malicious act, but rather a very unfortunate part of a poorly managed system that makes the community hostile and fairly unpleasant.
I've long since disassociated Bungie and the wonderful talented people who work under their banner with the forums they host and the people they charge to maintain the peace there. Most posters I see are the typical immature, bashful and often intolerant bunch you'll find on any large forum, particularly ones for gaming. Thoughtful arguments, like those Jay has posted repeatedly often concerning despicable behavior on Bungie.net, are buried under a mountain of screaming by those people who she's raising concern over.That's why I prefer it here and in other tight-knit communities where acting stupidly and reputation that follows it carries more weight.
Yeah, you've nailed why I've stuck around here so long. So many other communities have come and gone for me, the bungie.org has always made me feel very comfortable.
I expect better :-(
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Thursday, May 01, 2014, 11:59 (3865 days ago) @ kidtsunami
I have very little to say about this for one reason:
Her post along with all comments either way were deleted. I only have the word of one person.
I do think if it happened exactly as claimed, it's terrible, and I hope someone at Bungie is looking into it to confirm and if necessary rectify the situation, but without the full story I'm not going to call them out for doing something wrong.
I expect better :-(
If I had to guess, I'd say the thread was locked because she created a thread linking to a story she wrote herself.
You're not allowed to self-advertise on NeoGAF, for example. An eight-month seems to be harsh, but I don't know the full details.
I expect better :-(
by DeeJ , Bungie, Thursday, May 01, 2014, 13:03 (3865 days ago) @ kidtsunami
Her ban was overturned. I doubt Jay will update her Facebook page with that development. It was a the right thing for us to do, and it was done. Sadly, Jay has expressed to me personally that she has no interest in our company or our games. She leverages our forum and our group system to foster an audience with an appetite for controversy. Our moderators did what they did last night based on past negative experiences with her conduct. While this was not her first ban, it was an error in judgment, and we corrected it.
http://www.bungie.net/en/View/bungie/conduct
Our Code of Conduct is linked to every view of our forum. That's what Bungie believes about racism or justice or the right of every citizen of our community to be respected. Our forum is moderated by a brave staff of volunteers. Like the rest of us, they're not perfect, but I'd trust them to protect the Tower on my watch.
We make games. It's our hope that the people who visit our website are interested in that process and the experience it provides. The Internet is a rough corner of an imperfect world. We do our best to maintain civility and respect for all.
I like pie.
Love, DeeJ
=/ *NM*
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, May 01, 2014, 13:11 (3865 days ago) @ DeeJ
On the bright side, pie is indeed a very good thing.
On the bright side, pie is indeed a very good thing.
Cobbler is the master race of pastries.
Cobbler is just weak crisp.
by uberfoop , Seattle-ish, Thursday, May 01, 2014, 14:40 (3865 days ago) @ bluerunner
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Thanks for the Update DeeJ. Wishing everyone the best.
by breitzen , Kansas, Thursday, May 01, 2014, 13:22 (3865 days ago) @ DeeJ
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Wow, well I just love how you respond to things. <3
by kidtsunami , Atlanta, GA, Thursday, May 01, 2014, 14:58 (3865 days ago) @ DeeJ
I expect so much of Bungie because you deliver.
Thanks for clearing things up!