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Destiny: Wot I think (Destiny)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, June 13, 2014, 13:18 (3814 days ago)

I guess I should start with the good and work my way to the bad. Deej said if I ranted on here, I’d been banned from the final, so no caps or forceful language here - just hard hitting analysis. There is a really great game buried here, but it’s underneath a lot of stuff that has the potential to spoil a lot of the content when the full game comes out. Yes, I’m talking about the investment system and boss design.

Graphics are great no complaints. A nice touch is that in orbit you are around the last place you left. So after playing PvP you can be on the dark side of the moon.

If you strip away the investment and progression systems, then you have a really fun first person shooter. The strike and the story mission are great, mostly because they are designed and the spaces you’re navigating have encounters designed for them. The space in Destiny is actually really huge, and in the Alpha so much of it is empty. I’m guessing that every area in the final will have story missions, strikes and raids taking place in them, so all this wonderful world doesn’t go to waste. The drawn distance and 2^2km limit aren’t an issue. The game seems to transition completely seamlessly between spaces with no loading at all, and you see other parts of the world simulated as skybox when you get too far away, so the illusion of size is still preserved. It's perfect.

The weapon system is actually pretty fascinating. It was really confusing how it was going to work until I saw it in action. Basically, you can carry 27 weapons at a time, 9 from each type, and have 3 in slot ready to use. You can at any time swap out a weapon for another, like if you are going from an outdoor space to an indoor space you can swap your special from a sniper to a shotgun. You essentially have a full arsenal at your disposable like a traditional 90s FPS game. The difference, is that when you switch a special or heavy weapon, you lose all your ammo (and you have to enter the menu to make the swap). There are ammo synth packs that you can buy which completely fill your ammo for a given weapon type, so this is not a big deal. However, they have a 4 minute cooldown. This means you’ll be switching either no more often than every 4 minutes, or after encounters when there’s lots of ammo on the ground.

I can guess that weapon management like this is going to be a big deal, especially with the different damage types. You’re probably going to have to have a wide variety of weapons at your disposal, using guns tailored to specific missions or specific parts of missions. You can store even more at the tower. Forget Halo 2, Destiny is the game about guns guns and mo’ guns.

This isn’t as spontaneous as in Halo, and I feel like a lot of Destiny is going to be based on planning rather than improvisation. You could pretty much play Halo and take what guns you think you want on the fly, but I’m guessing in Destiny, especially at higher levels that’s going to be less and less successful and you’ll need to know your shit.

The combat itself feels good, and is a lot of fun. Crank it up to Legend because the enemies on Brave aren’t as great. I’ll get to the levels and damage when I talk about the investment system. Headshots aren’t instakill, they just do critical damage, and various enemies have different critical hit areas. Like how with the flood in Halo 2 you'd ‘headshot’ in them the chest. Especially in the Strike, some of the encounters were set up really well with enemies shooting you from long distance while other charge in, making the experience pretty dynamic (and teamwork very helpful).

There are abilities that aren’t your super, and I wish there were more and a larger variety of them to choose from to make different builds for each class essentially. Particularly fun is the throwing knife the hunter has. If you melee and there’s nobody close you throw a knife, which if it’s a critical hit is does a ton of damage. If you add the knife juggler ability, which resets the skill’s cooldown to zero after a critical hit, it really changes the way you approach things since if good you can string together knife criticals across enemies doing a tons of damage. It doesn’t appear most of the skills change combat in that way though, but maybe that’s because it’s not content complete. Most are ‘passive’ skills.

It just wants to be played co-op, and is really a lot more fun to do it that way. I didn’t have any network problems or lag ever, and my internet sucks. Still, the ability to explore the world offline would be welcome. It's a cool world.

It’s so big though, that you really need to have planned and designed challenges for the spaces. Story missions and Strikes accomplish this, but explore mode doesn’t. Explore mode isn’t very fun, because you are doing tasks that are dumb, in areas that are largely empty and feature scattered groups of enemies. You can think of the experience like Halo ODST: the story missions and strikes are the levels, but explore mode is the mombassa streets. It’s just not that much fun wandering around doing the same types of MMO type quests. You are either killing all the enemies (and possibly collecting what they have), or you are capturing a territory essentially by ‘scouting’ or ‘evaluating’. Some of it is so pointless, all you get is your ghost saying ‘Good Job’ after completion. There’s no sense your actions had an effect on anything.The beacons are always in the same place, but I’m assuming that’s an alpha only thing.

Explore mode could be really cool though, since while mission waypoints are highlighted and revealed to you, I found a bunch of loot chests completely out of the way and hidden. This gives me hope, as what if explore mode had things such as characters, story arcs, and other things to discover. Imagine instead of just doing stupid MMO quests, you actually explore and find a crashed ship with a computer that you can analyze. Or maybe a character still in it. This could propel the story forward, and unlock strikes and story missions. Or maybe really cool weapons are hidden in loot chests. If explore mode can be about exploration, with no handholding and lots of actual cool stuff to find, then it could be really really sweet. That’s they key. All this sweet stuff in explore mode has to be like that sweet puzzle in Bioshock Infinite. As it is now, you get bad weapons in loot chests and boring quests, and it’s really not a lot of fun. This is why the Alpha leak video made the game look like it sucks. Because for the most part, explore mode does suck.

The tower is nice an all, but in reality all it does is make the mundane and cleanup tasks you have to do take longer. You get weapon drops you need to identify before using them, and this can only be done at a certain dude in the tower. There’s a reason Diablo did away with this and now just lets you right click to identify an item anywhere: it basically just adds unnecessary steps and strings the task out. You should be able to enter the menu, and hold square to identify the item. You can dismantle items anywhere, so why not identify? It’s the same thing with commerce. It’s just time consuming needlessly to walk around from person to person. A better solution would be a store menu you can access while in orbit, that has everything from everybody. It would be way easier. Look at Final Fantasy XIII, even they realized the convenience of menu shopping, and that actually traveling to your merchants doesn’t add anything to the experience. Need to buy something? Select the tower, wait for it to load, travel to the merchant (if you can remember who has what you want), buy it, then leave. Or do it my way, go to orbit, open the shop menu, and buy, leaving more time for strikes. I get that the tower is probably supposed to have character progression and story details happen there, but that could still happen. Just move the commerce into something more streamlined.

My worry for the story though, is that all these bits will come in piecemealed. I’m hoping the story missions will lead into each other and pretty much play like a campaign. What would be a shame is if it ended up like the Starcraft 2 campaign, which because of the nature of being able to select missions in any order, the missions don’t significantly effect the story until you get close to the end and they then have a fixed order. The strikes, raids, and explore should all be back, side, or behind story. Think of it like Deus Ex. There’s a main story, but tons of side stuff to deepen or twist it. I’m wondering if there will be a main storyline with everything else as side stuff, or if it will have everything be side stuff like in SC2. Only Bungie knows right now.

You’re reading and you think the game sounds cool, but I haven’t talked about the investment system yet. This is potentially going to be a problem, and make the game less fun. First of all, when you change the difficulty level, the enemies level up. Instead of making the enemies more aggressive, more numerous, and of different types, they become more powerful. This is a problem because your ability to do damage is pretty dependent on your gear and level. There’s an underground space in the game which contains a few enemies that have ??? as their level. Shoot them, and you do 1 damage. I don’t care how good you are, but you can’t kill them. That’s… bullshit.

That’s the extreme case, but it will impact your ability to play normal stuff. Try playing the first story mission on Legend when you are level 3. It’s doable, but kind of tedious since the Wizard has lots of HP and you have no heavy. You can use your golden shot 3 times and not kill it. However, once you are level 8, go back and play it on Legend, and you will absolutely breeze though it.

I think difficulty needs to be separate from leveling. Basically, enemies should be the same level regardless of difficulty you are on. If you do a strike and set it to Brave, the enemies should be the same level as Legend. The only difference is that there should be more of them, they should be of different types, and they should be smarter. What difficulty you play on should be dependent upon your skill, not how much damage you can do. That’s why difficulties are around in the first place: so regardless of your skill, you can find the game challenging. When you base the ability to play on higher difficulties on your damage output, when you are starting out and have low damage output, you are forced to play easy stuff even if you are really good. Then you get bored. This is where the mix of MMO and FPS collide, and sour instead of enhancing the experience.

Boss and mini boss design is likewise based on your ability to do damage. Bosses and minibosses have way to much HP. It’s absurd. Bosses are supposed to be lethal and intense, not a grind to kill. Worse, is that neither the walker nor the big orb boss vary their AI or attack pattern. If you are level 6 doing the level 6 strike, without access to a heavy weapon, you and your team are going to be pecking away at these bosses for tens of minutes, all the while dodging the same attacks because you figure them out pretty quickly. It becomes a test of patience, not skill. I understand that Bungie wants crews to have to figure out how to kill bosses, and bring in that MMO vibe, but fighting them needs to actually be fun. Given that you can always revive your allies, it’s not really going to present a challenge so much as a battle of attrition. If you prepare for these bosses, by coordinating on the leg with heavy weapons for the walker, and by having one person take of the enemies while the other two take turns shooting the orb with their heavys, it’s not so bad and doesn’t take too long. Bungie needs to make bosses fun to try to kill if you aren’t prepared. Basically, if you aren’t prepared the boss should be fun to fight but wipe you out. If you are prepared, it should be fun to fight and you kick its ass. The solution is to up the lethality, lower the HP dramatically, and give the bosses better AI and more dynamic behavior and attack patterns. I am nearly certain that the final game will have better bosses. It just has to.

That to me gives me glimpse of where it looks like high level content in this game is going. I don’t necessarily like it. The signs are there that it’s leading towards MMO type bosses that take insane gear and lots of time to take down. I’m not against having boss fights be puzzles and you and your team having to figure them out. Figuring out the strat, and what weapons to use is fine, and it can be fun. But getting it wrong should mean you die and fail, not slog on for tens of minutes. So yes, while I was able to figure out how to beat the alpha bosses in reasonably quick and easy ways, that's only because I ended up level 8. Try doing it at level 6. It's not possible. I guarantee you there are going to be bosses in the final game, that will require certain damage output and level in addition to strategy. Strategy takes a leap of intuition to formulate. Leveling up just takes time.

So what do I think? This MMO with FPS elements has tons and tons of potential, but also places where it could stumble hard. That being said, I've been really really enjoying myself. Is that because the game is great? Is that because the level cap is so easy to hit in the alpha that it's hiding the woes of the investment system? Probably both.

This is a buy. Whether it's played casually or played harder is entirely dependent on how much content the investment system spoils. I have no patience for bullshit, but I'm pretty sure even if my worse case scenario comes true there will be enough that isn;t bullshit for the game to be fun.

Tune in Monday for a rampancy videocast where you can see all the modes in action from someone who doesn't suck (maybe at PvP :-p)

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Destiny: Wot I think

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Friday, June 13, 2014, 14:23 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

...First of all, when you change the difficulty level, the enemies level up. Instead of making the enemies more aggressive, more numerous, and of different types, they become more powerful. This is a problem because your ability to do damage is pretty dependent on your gear and level. There’s an underground space in the game which contains a few enemies that have ??? as their level. Shoot them, and you do 1 damage. I don’t care how good you are, but you can’t kill them. That’s… bullshit.

I agree with this.

The other day while watching one of the posted streams the person playing posted the following:

1: um i think my guns are too weak lol
2: The wizard is pissed...
1: prolly shouldnt have attempted at such low level on hard
1: when you kill it it's the end of the mission...
2: how does the difficulty choice work?
1: ill do some free roam
...
1: it lowers your weapons stats on harder difficulties
1: but i dont remember seeing those exploding hive on easier modes
1: maybe it adds more stuff too i dunno


This surprised me. It would really suck to get through the hardest level only to find that your weapons won't work on the one enemy left to finish the mission.

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Agreed

by DaDerga, Baile Átha Cliath, Friday, June 13, 2014, 14:27 (3814 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Not a fan of agency being taken from the player's hands. If your capable enough, if you have the skill, you should be able to challenge and not be locked out as a result of level or gear.

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Destiny: Wot I think

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, June 13, 2014, 14:49 (3814 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

...First of all, when you change the difficulty level, the enemies level up. Instead of making the enemies more aggressive, more numerous, and of different types, they become more powerful. This is a problem because your ability to do damage is pretty dependent on your gear and level. There’s an underground space in the game which contains a few enemies that have ??? as their level. Shoot them, and you do 1 damage. I don’t care how good you are, but you can’t kill them. That’s… bullshit.


I agree with this.

The other day while watching one of the posted streams the person playing posted the following:

1: it lowers your weapons stats on harder difficulties

I think this is a misinterpretation of the difficulty selection screen. The bar graphs display a percentage for each weapon. That's not how much it's being lowered, but how powerful relative to par it is. So if you switch to Legend and it says "Machine gun, -33%", that doesn't mean your gun is being lowered by a third, it means that Bungie thinks your gun is ⅔ as powerful as it should be in order to perform comfortably on that difficulty.

You can be on Legend and have it display positive percentages, meaning you are more powerful than you need to be.

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Destiny: Wot I think

by TTL Demag0gue ⌂ @, Within the shadow of the Traveler, Friday, June 13, 2014, 14:51 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think this is a misinterpretation of the difficulty selection screen. The bar graphs display a percentage for each weapon. That's not how much it's being lowered, but how powerful relative to par it is. So if you switch to Legend and it says "Machine gun, -33%", that doesn't mean your gun is being lowered by a third, it means that Bungie thinks your gun is ⅔ as powerful as it should be in order to perform comfortably.

Exactly. I generally upgrade my weapons in those cases and find my attack power relative to the enemies is much more balanced.

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Destiny: Wot I think

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, June 13, 2014, 15:07 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think this is a misinterpretation of the difficulty selection screen. The bar graphs display a percentage for each weapon. That's not how much it's being lowered, but how powerful relative to par it is. So if you switch to Legend and it says "Machine gun, -33%", that doesn't mean your gun is being lowered by a third, it means that Bungie thinks your gun is ⅔ as powerful as it should be in order to perform comfortably on that difficulty.

Yeah I am pretty sure this is how it works, going to a more powerful weapon changed my percentage for my auto rifle from -15% to +7%.

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Destiny: Wot I think

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Friday, June 13, 2014, 16:00 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

...First of all, when you change the difficulty level, the enemies level up. Instead of making the enemies more aggressive, more numerous, and of different types, they become more powerful. This is a problem because your ability to do damage is pretty dependent on your gear and level. There’s an underground space in the game which contains a few enemies that have ??? as their level. Shoot them, and you do 1 damage. I don’t care how good you are, but you can’t kill them. That’s… bullshit.


I agree with this.

The other day while watching one of the posted streams the person playing posted the following:

1: it lowers your weapons stats on harder difficulties


I think this is a misinterpretation of the difficulty selection screen. The bar graphs display a percentage for each weapon. That's not how much it's being lowered, but how powerful relative to par it is. So if you switch to Legend and it says "Machine gun, -33%", that doesn't mean your gun is being lowered by a third, it means that Bungie thinks your gun is ⅔ as powerful as it should be in order to perform comfortably on that difficulty.

You can be on Legend and have it display positive percentages, meaning you are more powerful than you need to be.

That is either an odd way to show things, or there is a possible clarity issue with how information is being displayed/read. Even though this idea makes my inner graphic artist scream, I can't say anything more about it, due to lack of reference. I would have to find a recorded stream to say more.

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Destiny: Wot I think

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, June 13, 2014, 16:12 (3814 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

That is either an odd way to show things, or there is a possible clarity issue with how information is being displayed/read. Even though this idea makes my inner graphic artist scream, I can't say anything more about it, due to lack of reference. I would have to find a recorded stream to say more.

Here you go.

[image]

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Thumbnail, Cody!

by TTL Demag0gue ⌂ @, Within the shadow of the Traveler, Friday, June 13, 2014, 16:15 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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Fix'd

by Beorn @, <End of Failed Timeline>, Friday, June 13, 2014, 16:17 (3814 days ago) @ TTL Demag0gue

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Destiny: Wot I think

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Friday, June 13, 2014, 16:26 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

"Gear effectiveness tells weather your equipment is up to the challenge"

*All in the red*

I would say that to be a pretty decent warning. Yet - now I would have to grind (or what have you) to get better weapons so that I can play the harder level. But if enemies are just more powerful - then what would the point be? The person in the stream mentioned not seeing the "exploding hive" so I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and guess the harder levels might also have added versions of enemies to mix things up.

I donno. My thoughts on this is right mixed.

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Destiny: Wot I think

by TTL Demag0gue ⌂ @, Within the shadow of the Traveler, Friday, June 13, 2014, 16:30 (3814 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Legend has vastly higher numbers of Fallen than does Brave. I don't think it's any harder to kill them on Legend difficulty than it is on Brave, just that there are larger and more frequent waves of them, some of which spawn behind you on Legend, to interrupt your attack on Sepiks, who may or may not be stronger on Legend than on Brave. I've only run the Strike once for each difficulty setting, so I don't have a lot of data for comparison on that one.

Destiny: Wot I think

by kapowaz, Wednesday, June 18, 2014, 01:29 (3810 days ago) @ Cody Miller

The bar graphs display a percentage for each weapon. That's not how much it's being lowered, but how powerful relative to par it is. So if you switch to Legend and it says "Machine gun, -33%", that doesn't mean your gun is being lowered by a third, it means that Bungie thinks your gun is ⅔ as powerful as it should be in order to perform comfortably on that difficulty.

You can be on Legend and have it display positive percentages, meaning you are more powerful than you need to be.

That UI could definitely be clearer. The percentages are completely unexplained in-situ; I actually thought they meant something else entirely different!

Destiny: Wot I think

by electricpirate @, Friday, June 13, 2014, 17:26 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

So that was surprisingly balanced :).

No PS4 over here, so I can't comment on everything.

From what I've seen though, I agree with you (gasp) on the bosses. Especialy the eye duder. Way too spongy while remaining easy enough to defeat. I kind of think that's the key right? How easy he seem and just takes a ton of damage and if you die, you have to do it all over again.

For the regular enemeis, I watched some under leveled gameplay, and it seemed like a good player can make an impact. I feel like the percentages may become the new Dark Souls level 1 run. IE, Strike X, Legend Difficulty at -80.

Watching the raid some more I felt like a couple things could make it more interesting. Mostly just a legit fail state of some kind. Like a time limit That could really spice things up.

For the explore mode, I think the key to that, is public events. I didn't even see you mention them in the writeup? These places for cool events that spike difficulty and bring in something cool. We'll see.

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Destiny: Wot I think

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, June 13, 2014, 17:57 (3814 days ago) @ electricpirate
edited by Cody Miller, Friday, June 13, 2014, 18:11

For the explore mode, I think the key to that, is public events. I didn't even see you mention them in the writeup? These places for cool events that spike difficulty and bring in something cool. We'll see.

Well, when you first start explore is a blast because there's a lot of things to explore in the alpha. It's really massive. There's literally more level space and play area than some complete FPS games. The quests just aren't fun. Public events are basically like a massive version of the regular explore quests.

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Destiny: Wot I think

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Saturday, June 14, 2014, 03:36 (3814 days ago) @ electricpirate


Watching the raid some more I felt like a couple things could make it more interesting. Mostly just a legit fail state of some kind. Like a time limit That could really spice things up.

Seems like the little missions in Explore mode have that. It's something I've wanted for a while-- nonleathal fail states. So those generator defense bits, you can not die but fail to achieve the objective and your ghost gives this little "well, we'll get 'em next time" message.

TLDR

by GrimBrotherIII, Friday, June 13, 2014, 18:42 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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Summary

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, June 13, 2014, 18:46 (3814 days ago) @ GrimBrotherIII

He liked many aspects of Destiny, still has legitimate concerns over the more MMO pieces, but overall thinks it is a buy.

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TLDR

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, June 13, 2014, 20:03 (3814 days ago) @ GrimBrotherIII

Game good, investment bad.
[image]

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I love this.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Friday, June 13, 2014, 20:17 (3814 days ago) @ bluerunner

Game good, investment bad.
[image]

I wasn't eating cheerios, but I did gain some cheer!
Just... yes. :D

Thank you Gentlemen for your excellent synopses.

by GrimBrotherIII, Friday, June 13, 2014, 22:25 (3814 days ago) @ bluerunner

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Poor choice on your part

by Avateur @, Friday, June 13, 2014, 21:49 (3814 days ago) @ GrimBrotherIII

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Thank you!

by Mr Daax ⌂ @, aka: SSG Daax, Friday, June 13, 2014, 19:40 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Good info. As someone with no Alpha access, I appreciate the info and input.

Destiny: Wot I think

by Avateur @, Friday, June 13, 2014, 21:50 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Really excellent post. Thanks for putting a lot of this down, and I think it really helps describe what I've been feeling while watching. I'm still not really sure what to think, and want to get going on the Beta to get a better feel for all of this. Either way, you really elaborated on a lot and spoke to some things I haven't seen, played, or known about. It's also pretty cool to know that you think this is worth buying.

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Seconded; thanks, Cody.

by SonofMacPhisto @, Friday, June 13, 2014, 21:57 (3814 days ago) @ Avateur

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Destiny: Wot I think

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, June 13, 2014, 22:05 (3814 days ago) @ Avateur

Really excellent post. Thanks for putting a lot of this down, and I think it really helps describe what I've been feeling while watching. I'm still not really sure what to think, and want to get going on the Beta to get a better feel for all of this. Either way, you really elaborated on a lot and spoke to some things I haven't seen, played, or known about. It's also pretty cool to know that you think this is worth buying.

You may like watching the Rampancy vidcast when it comes out next week. You'll get to see a wide variety of weapons (including the fusion rifle, which rocks even though Claude thinks it's bad), game modes, and the sheer massiveness and seamlessness of Old Russia.

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The Fusion Rifle does indeed rock.

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, June 13, 2014, 22:09 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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The Fusion Rifle does indeed rock.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Saturday, June 14, 2014, 01:06 (3814 days ago) @ Xenos

Oh crap. I've disassembled all mine.

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The Fusion Rifle does indeed rock.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Monday, June 16, 2014, 14:50 (3811 days ago) @ Kermit

I was unable to find one that didn't feel like it was fighting me.

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Fusion rifles are great! :)

by TTL Demag0gue ⌂ @, Within the shadow of the Traveler, Saturday, June 14, 2014, 03:27 (3814 days ago) @ Xenos

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Destiny: Wot I think

by Zeouterlimits, Ireland, Saturday, June 14, 2014, 04:49 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Very good points and enjoyable read Cody, thanks.
Haven't gotten to play the beta, but have watched a bunch of DBO & GAFfers play, my impressions have lead to similar thoughts.

I feel like going to the Tower wouldn't be such of an issue if the load times weren't quite as sizeable [but as a general game design decision, I agree about the shops being easier to access].

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I shall call it an FPSRPG

by RC ⌂, UK, Saturday, June 14, 2014, 06:30 (3814 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It's really not an MMO no matter how many people throw that around. The defining characteristic is the 'massive' and the most you'll see in Destiny is maybe 14 at the Tower (at least in the Alpha). It's leaning to a highly cooperative and online FPSRPG but it still ain't no MMO.

The weapon system is actually pretty fascinating.

I can guess that weapon management like this is going to be a big deal, especially with the different damage types. You’re probably going to have to have a wide variety of weapons at your disposal, using guns tailored to specific missions or specific parts of missions.

I think you're right here. I had barely considered the damage types before you mentioned this. Has anyone figured out what the different damage types do yet?
I've seen weapons with:

  • Kinect (standard)
  • Solar (orange flame)
  • Arc (light blue spikey circle)
  • Void (purple swirl)

This could make things interesting at higher levels but I feel like it's underplayed so far.

Explore mode isn’t very fun, because you are doing tasks that are dumb,

I think it's good to relax with, honestly. Just wander around, killing random mobs, hitting random objectives in an unstructured way. Don't think about it too much.

It’s the same thing with commerce. It’s just time consuming needlessly to walk around from person to person. A better solution would be a store menu you can access while in orbit, that has everything from everybody. It would be way easier.

Going to different merchants would make sense if there was some sort of micro-market economy going on but there isn't. You can't sell back weapons or armour. Ships and speeders are just 'discarded' despite being so expensive (and apparently rare in the case of good lightspeed-capable ships) - it felt so wasteful.

You’re reading and you think the game sounds cool, but I haven’t talked about the investment system yet. This is potentially going to be a problem, and make the game less fun. First of all, when you change the difficulty level, the enemies level up.

This happened in Halo to and I never found it to be a problem.

Instead of making the enemies more aggressive, more numerous, and of different types, they become more powerful.

There is definitely some variation on types. On the story mission, you get these white, exploding Hive Thralls that rush you on Legend, while just the standard Thralls are on Brave. I just went in there with a knife on Brave but quickly learned I needed to keep them at a distance on Legend.

This is a problem because your ability to do damage is pretty dependent on your gear and level. There’s an underground space in the game which contains a few enemies that have ??? as their level. Shoot them, and you do 1 damage. I don’t care how good you are, but you can’t kill them. That’s… bullshit.

A lot of RPGs scale enemies with the player. Most obvious when you restart the game with your end-game character (NG+) and the start is still a reasonable challenge rather than everything being rice paper.

Obviously that clashes with Bungie's goals of blocking off certain areas with super-high level enemies, low level players being awed by higher ones, and enemy balance in cooperative situations.

I wonder if the scale could be compressed a bit, at least.

Boss and mini boss design is likewise based on your ability to do damage. Bosses and minibosses have way to much HP.

I hate the Devil Walker. I really hope there is something I'm missing - like with damage types - because it always drains all my ammo when I fight it. I really wish the Devil Walker moved a bit more - it seems like a turret sometimes.

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I shall call it an FPSRPG

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, June 14, 2014, 12:37 (3814 days ago) @ RC

I hate the Devil Walker. I really hope there is something I'm missing - like with damage types - because it always drains all my ammo when I fight it. I really wish the Devil Walker moved a bit more - it seems like a turret sometimes.

You can shoot that big gun off the top of it to make things a little easier.

I shall call it an FPSRPG

by Veegie, Saturday, June 14, 2014, 18:46 (3813 days ago) @ Cody Miller

You can shoot that big gun off the top of it to make things a little easier.

I... did not know this.

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No excuse

by DaDerga, Baile Átha Cliath, Saturday, June 14, 2014, 18:59 (3813 days ago) @ Veegie

- No text -

I shall call it an FPSRPG

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, June 18, 2014, 09:43 (3810 days ago) @ Veegie

You can shoot that big gun off the top of it to make things a little easier.

I... did not know this.

This made me laugh. :)

I shall call it an FPSRPG

by scarab @, Monday, June 16, 2014, 14:43 (3811 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It doesn't seem to matter much, it's easy to avoid, plenty of warning and there are places to stand where neither of its ranged attacks can hit you.

I try to farm ammo from the lesser units, kill the ones in the pit and they usually drop something. Entice the ones on the right to come after you and kill them for their ammo. (My directions are from where you start, facing towards where the tank will drop)

If I run out of ammo I revert to tossing the occasional grenade and resurrecting my team mates. Somewhere on my travels to revive a team mate I will run over some ammo.

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I shall call it an FPSRPG

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Monday, June 16, 2014, 14:57 (3811 days ago) @ RC

I hate the Devil Walker. I really hope there is something I'm missing - like with damage types - because it always drains all my ammo when I fight it. I really wish the Devil Walker moved a bit more - it seems like a turret sometimes.

Every time I fought that sucker, I would use all my ammo. When a few fallen would come out of the woodwork, I would get at them, hoping they would drop some decent ammo. Most of the time it was standard.

Good thing grenades are infinite.

Destiny: Wot I think

by kapowaz, Wednesday, June 18, 2014, 01:23 (3810 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I'm interested to hear what you think how player skill differentiates itself. In other MMO games you don't have concepts like headshots in combat (the damage you do is more determined by your gear) but it sounds like more of a hybrid approach here; you (presumably) do location-specific damage as well as having your overall output be determined by gear. But what differentiates a good player from a great player? The scenario you describe where a boss takes a long time to kill presumably will be variable based on this player skill, but it's unclear to me how the gameplay offers opportunity to do optimal or just okay damage. Is there such a thing as a skill rotation (using certain abilities when off cooldown, in a particular order)? This is interesting to me because it affects PvP as well as the co-op experience.

Your description of boss combat sounds disappointing, but it's hard to say if this is because - as an alpha - the boss encounters aren't fully tuned yet, or if they're actually broken by design. In WoW almost all bosses have what's referred to as an 'enrage timer'; even if you're surviving and chipping away at the boss's health, if you don't defeat it within that time limit, the boss will suddenly and quickly kill all of you. It's a necessary feature to prevent otherwise underpowered characters from being able to defeat a boss, plus it also acts as a 'gear check'; a way of ensuring that players have a certain mandatory level of power before allowing them to proceed. As well as that, by having an enrage timer hanging over you, there's a sense of peril to every encounter: you either win in the next 5 minutes, or you die.

It doesn't sound like this exists in Destiny (yet) which based on your experience sounds like a mistake. Hopefully that's just because it's only alpha.

I'm surprised to hear you have little to say about the player investment system so far, but you've touched on something I always wondered about: just how much your character's gear level impacts on the difficulty of combat. The answer appears to be: substantially, which is disappointing but not that surprising. What it does mean is that areas of the game will be either trivial (and thus, probably ignored) or impossible (and similarly ignored) at different stages as you level. Again, based on my experience of WoW (a game with millions of players) this leads to 'ghost towns' in the underpopulated areas, whilst everyone focuses on the content they can actually play. It'll be interesting to see how much this affects co-op play in the final game, and whether it might result in areas feeling devoid of (human) life.

The tower sounds like it could be frustrating with the way you have to literally walk around to perform otherwise mundane actions. This kind of thing always walks a fine line between tedium and immersion, but whereas in other games vendors and the like exist in a shared, busy place that has many purposes it sounds as though the only real reason to visit the tower is to perform actions that would be easier done with a menu. There's no voice chat yet, I take it? I'm wondering just how many players will bother to hang out in the tower rather than head out and do something more fun in the wilds. In WoW there's lots of reasons to sit around in a capital, but it seems like there's far fewer here.

Anyway, good write up - lots of detail there to absorb. I'd better go get a PS4 so I can try it out when the beta launches.

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Destiny: Wot I think

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Wednesday, June 18, 2014, 07:20 (3810 days ago) @ kapowaz

There's no voice chat yet, I take it?

Voice chat was definitely in the Alpha, but it is a fireteam only voice chat, which from what Bungie has stated previously will be the way it stays unless you form a party on your respective playform instead of in game.

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Destiny: Wot I think

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, June 18, 2014, 11:40 (3810 days ago) @ kapowaz
edited by Cody Miller, Wednesday, June 18, 2014, 12:11

But what differentiates a good player from a great player? The scenario you describe where a boss takes a long time to kill presumably will be variable based on this player skill, but it's unclear to me how the gameplay offers opportunity to do optimal or just okay damage. Is there such a thing as a skill rotation (using certain abilities when off cooldown, in a particular order)?

No, your knowledge / skill can definitely make fights go faster. The Forbes write up said they were in the strike for 3 hours, however I've done it on legend in a little over 30 minutes (this was with good people with voice chat). But damage output is damage output. Go try to kill stuff in the caves behind the dried up ocean. You do 1 damage.

I'm surprised to hear you have little to say about the player investment system so far, but you've touched on something I always wondered about: just how much your character's gear level impacts on the difficulty of combat. The answer appears to be: substantially, which is disappointing but not that surprising. What it does mean is that areas of the game will be either trivial (and thus, probably ignored) or impossible (and similarly ignored) at different stages as you level. Again, based on my experience of WoW (a game with millions of players) this leads to 'ghost towns' in the underpopulated areas, whilst everyone focuses on the content they can actually play. It'll be interesting to see how much this affects co-op play in the final game, and whether it might result in areas feeling devoid of (human) life.

It seems like explore mode puts out guys your level, so I think you'll always be reasonably challenged. I'm not sure, again, given the low spread of possible levels in the alpha. I didn't touch much on the investment system, since it's impossible to see how much content is spoils given the low level cap. It most certainly WILL spoil content in the full release, the only question is how much and to what degree. The investment system is a mistake, but nowhere near as bad as it could have been.

What can mitigate it significantly is if there ends up being a large amount non grindy stuff to do in explore mode.

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