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This game is incredibly confusing (Destiny)

by Jordan117 @, Ala-blam!-a, Thursday, July 24, 2014, 16:47 (3779 days ago)

Maybe it's my fault for never being into the WOW/Diablo/RPG genre. Or for not paying much attention to the PR build-up to this beta. But as somebody who has primarily played Halo, Bioshock, Fallout 3, and The Last of Us with a dash of casual indie stuff, the mechanics of this game are incredibly confusing.

The overall story makes sense, such as it is. Golden Age, darkness comes, everything collapses, now the Last City is struggling to make a last stand. The environments are also strongly designed and full of character. And the gameplay itself is competent and fun.

But this solid core experience is accompanied by a blizzard of systems and terms and menus and sidestory elements that are overwhelming and impenetrable to a relative newcomer.

There's XP and Levels and Light and Loot. Subclass Upgrades and Armor Shaders and Crucible Reputation. Discipline. Intellect. Vanguard Marks. Consumables. Talent Points. Orbs of Light. Glimmer.

There are apparently over a hundred weapons, all with either technical or oddball names and half a dozen stats. Halo's armory, while extensive, was well-balanced and sensibly differentiated between Human/Covenant and short/mid/long-range with a handful of special weapons, but who's to tell a Khvostov 7G-02 from a 13098V Incognito from a Super Good Advice? How to choose which to equip without knowing how they handle in a fight? And do you find these weapons, anyway? Buy them? Unlock them? And how many can you own or equip simultaneously? (All the above goes for vehicles and armor, too, which have their own complex stat system).

There does appear to be some sort of trading or market mechanism, and each NPC has their own Reputation and update schedule and complicated bartering interface. But how do you buy/trade stuff? Or find stuff to sell? What makes a good deal? Is there a full-fledged player economy beyond the NPC stuff?

Then there's Grimoire -- some sort of trading card game (?) It says go to Bungie.net for more info, but the multi-layered Tarot deck there only makes things even more baffling.

And so much of the universe, while hinting at something coherent, is presented without any context or explanation. I see humans, but who are these Awoken and Exos? Is The Speaker in charge of The Tower, or just some kind of oracle? What's New Monarchy, or Dead Orbit, or the Future War Cult? "You know we're right"... about what exactly? It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know anything about these factions or people, which makes it really hard to care. And I still can't reliably distinguish between the various enemy races, or the various sub-races in each. I'm sure there's a wiki I can pore through, but basic information like this should be made clear in the game.

Fallout 3 did a great job slowly introducing you to its universe and the people, organizations, and gameplay systems you needed to master. Same with Fable. I'm not a complete noob at this sort of thing. But even a short time playing Destiny has left my head spinning. I really hope the final game is more cinematic and cutscene driven in story mode, at least at the beginning. Because the beta's "Hi, I brought you back to life, now start shooting stuff" was totally inadequate at introducing this vast new world.

Anybody who does grok all this care to share some kind of "Destiny for Dummies" primer that explains what all this stuff is and how it works together?

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This game is incredibly confusing

by Grizzlei ⌂ @, Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Thursday, July 24, 2014, 16:58 (3779 days ago) @ Jordan117
edited by Grizzlei, Thursday, July 24, 2014, 17:02

And so much of the universe, while hinting at something coherent, is presented without any context or explanation. I see humans, but who are these Awoken and Exos? Is The Speaker in charge of The Tower, or just some kind of oracle? What's New Monarchy, or Dead Orbit, or the Future War Cult? "You know we're right"... about what exactly? It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know anything about these factions or people, which makes it really hard to care. And I still can't reliably distinguish between the various enemy races, or the various sub-races in each. I'm sure there's a wiki I can pore through, but basic information like this should be made clear in the game.

This is only a little fraction of the game's whole story so you shouldn't be concerned that nothing is explained right away. The Cosmodrome in Old Russia is the first available section in the game it seems. Everything good takes some time to realize its fullest potential.

The Speaker may or may not be the leader of the Tower, but it is likely that they hold a significant position in its operation alongside the Vanguards. What we do know is that the Speaker is the embodied voice of the Traveler.

New Monarchy and those other groups that aren't important at all are factions. Each of them are more than the colors and logos that seem to differentiate them right now. They all have unique motives, aspirations, and capabilities.

Also, to be frank, it is quite easy to notice the differences in the enemy ranks. The only two that could be likened to each other are the Fallen Vandals and the Hive Acolytes, but even then, hovering over their body provides you a detailed HUD pop-up featuring their type, health, shields, and level. Only in the heat of the moment where you're bogged down by enemy baddies are you really likely to be unable to distinguish between them and that's a good thing.

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This game is incredibly confusing

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Thursday, July 24, 2014, 17:13 (3779 days ago) @ Jordan117
edited by General Vagueness, Thursday, July 24, 2014, 17:26

Maybe it's my fault for never being into the WOW/Diablo/RPG genre. Or for not paying much attention to the PR build-up to this beta. But as somebody who has primarily played Halo, Bioshock, Fallout 3, and The Last of Us with a dash of casual indie stuff, the mechanics of this game are incredibly confusing.

The overall story makes sense, such as it is. Golden Age, darkness comes, everything collapses, now the Last City is struggling to make a last stand. The environments are also strongly designed and full of character. And the gameplay itself is competent and fun.

But this solid core experience is accompanied by a blizzard of systems and terms and menus and sidestory elements that are overwhelming and impenetrable to a relative newcomer.

Before I get into details, a lot of what I'd say comes back to a response to this: I think this is on purpose. Firstly, exploration is a major thing in RPGs, and secondly, there's a fairly common approach to RPGs that involves throwing the player into the deep end of the world and letting them find their own way to something solid, and I think they're going for that, despite, as you suspected, answering a lot of this in the media. I mean you start off finding out you've been dead a long time, your Ghost even tells you you'll see a lot of things that don't make sense, your character would be bewildered and confused, and this is a valid approach to making the "you are your character" thing stick in your head. Personally I think it's not really a good approach for most people unless someone tells them that's the approach being taken, because they tend to take it all as themselves and focus on what they personally don't know or don't understand, but people who are good sports or easygoing or have an exploratory streak seem to get with it once they find out it's on purpose and it's not about them, per se.

There's XP and Levels and Light and Loot. Subclass Upgrades and Armor Shaders and Crucible Reputation. Discipline. Intellect. Vanguard Marks. Consumables. Talent Points. Orbs of Light. Glimmer.

There are apparently over a hundred weapons, all with either technical or oddball names and half a dozen stats. Halo's armory, while extensive, was well-balanced and sensibly differentiated between Human/Covenant and short/mid/long-range with a handful of special weapons, but who's to tell a Khvostov 7G-02 from a 13098V Incognito from a Super Good Advice? How to choose which to equip without knowing how they handle in a fight? And do you find these weapons, anyway? Buy them? Unlock them? And how many can you own or equip simultaneously? (All the above goes for vehicles and armor, too, which have their own complex stat system).

You can carry 27 weapons, 9 of each type. You can apparently buy, build, or find them. As for the variety and differentiation, they seem to be going for a Borderlands-style tons of guns approach, although not in a piece-by-piece way, so you just kind of have to figure it out or look it up, or get settled with something you like, I think. The super/special abilities are more powerful and interesting anyway, although there's a lot of overlap with them and the gunnery.

There does appear to be some sort of trading or market mechanism, and each NPC has their own Reputation and update schedule and complicated bartering interface. But how do you buy/trade stuff? Or find stuff to sell? What makes a good deal? Is there a full-fledged player economy beyond the NPC stuff?

No it's just NPCs selling things, they haven't said anything about players being able to sell or trade things.

Then there's Grimoire -- some sort of trading card game (?) It says go to Bungie.net for more info, but the multi-layered Tarot deck there only makes things even more baffling.

You just read it.

And so much of the universe, while hinting at something coherent, is presented without any context or explanation. I see humans, but who are these Awoken and Exos? Is The Speaker in charge of The Tower, or just some kind of oracle? What's New Monarchy, or Dead Orbit, or the Future War Cult? "You know we're right"... about what exactly? It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know anything about these factions or people, which makes it really hard to care. And I still can't reliably distinguish between the various enemy races, or the various sub-races in each. I'm sure there's a wiki I can pore through, but basic information like this should be made clear in the game.

This stuff, more than anything else, I think you're supposed to find out on your own, with "on your own" having a large heaping of the Grimoire in it.

Anybody who does grok all this care to share some kind of "Destiny for Dummies" primer that explains what all this stuff is and how it works together?

You probably figured this out but pretty much everything in the pause screens can be hovered on to pop up a description, and if it wasn't clear or I wasn't clear, a lot of information on the world and things in it is in the Grimoire (and before you argue it should be in the game, I agree with you). I can't tell you much more because I haven't looked at a ton of stuff and I've only gotten about to where you first get a weapon, I think, I keep having things to do and having things mess with me playing and I spent a lot of time just looking around and reading all the descriptions and flavor text for categories, items, upgrades, etc. Good luck.

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This game is incredibly confusing

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Thursday, July 24, 2014, 21:18 (3779 days ago) @ Jordan117

I think you should keep in mind that this is a beta, and it's likely the full game will have introductions and tutorials for most or all of these things.

Light, for instance - we have some vague idea of what it does (something to do with allowing you to damage very high-level enemies), but as it apparently doesn't come into play until the endgame after you hit level 20, there's zero explanation of it in a beta where you cap out at level 8.

This game is incredibly confusing

by kapowaz, Friday, July 25, 2014, 01:56 (3778 days ago) @ Jordan117

I agree with a lot of this; it's possible to parlay knowledge of MMOs into the game, but I have to imagine for somebody who's never played any of that type of game it could be overwhelming. And I have a lot of the same questions about story things, as they feel very opaque right now.

Then there's Grimoire -- some sort of trading card game (?) It says go to Bungie.net for more info, but the multi-layered Tarot deck there only makes things even more baffling.

Maybe it'll become more clear in the full release (since so many cards seem to have placeholder content) but the interface and purpose of this thing seems utterly baffling. If the intention was to provide more flavour/backstory in dribs and drabs as you gradually accumulate more kills of a certain kind, then the implementation was botched.

I keep saying it, but this stuff should not be external to the game; if there's no good reason why it needs to be outside the game, then putting it on the website or mobile app exclusively just puts up needless barriers to access. If it's a single paragraph of text talking about the Fallen, I'm unlikely to stop what I'm doing to go read it on my phone. It's also unlikely to be satisfying enough that I'll go seek it out later, particularly with that unfathomable cards interface.

Bungie has done such a good job of storytelling in previous games, it's quite shocking that it's so poor in this one. Of the two alternative ways the Grimoire content could be shared with the player that immediately come to mind, one is from a Bungie game! Both Halo 3: ODST and Diablo 3 used audio-transcripts that can be played back whilst you continue fighting, giving you a sort of narration of story. Something like this that keeps you in the game would be so much more engaging and interesting, and I suspect will aid with all players getting to experience the story in entirety, instead of just those patient enough to work out the Grimoire system.

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