Perhaps think less KotOR and more Fallout 3. Using a sniper rifle in real time you could easily get long range kills by simply aiming down the scope and shooting the bad guys. It didn't matter if you had points in small guns (the skill that controlled sniper rifles) or not. It was only in the more RPG like VATS mode that accuracy and misses would come into play. I expect Destiny to be like that. Guns will likely work Halo style. If you pull the trigger with someone properly in your sights then you will hit them. Levels will (hopefully) only control what happens once you hit them. How much damage or shield penetration or stun or whatever your shots do.

So, GV, first of all: wall of text... You should try to separate your paragraphs by an empty line. It helps diminishing the wall of text feeling (IMO, of course).

Anyway, I'm glad you found some solace in getting this out of your chest. I do agree that grinding can be very obnoxious, but I think Borderlands (especially the second one) pulled it off pretty well. There was some "cheapness" in fight mechanics (as I think you would think of it) that caused damage dealt and received not be simply based on the weapon itself, but also numerically scale on the level gap between you and your enemy.

I would also like to point out to you that KotOR is a RPG heavily based on tabletop RPGs. As such, combat was based on chance (the mentioned "dice rolls") and scaled by your skillset (if you didn't have the proper skill, for example, it would severely diminished). While I am having quite a blast romping through KotOR II right now, I understand your point.

I recommend you looking into Borderlands and check how leveling up works there. I don't think you would find it too obnoxious and I honestly think it is likely for Destiny to take that direction.

An RPG is actually exactly the direction I was hoping Bungie would travel down. An FPS-RPG hybrid is also okay, by my books. Though I was really hoping for something more Elder Scrolls-esque.

Still, this combines most of the elements Bungie seems to be good at: FPS gameplay and storytelling. We'll see how they implement the RPG style progression in the game, but I'm cautiously optimistic.

Caveat: Posting inebriated after a party.

When I got an Xbox, I got some games for it that I heard were good. One of them was SW: KotOR. My first impressions were good but as I read the manual and it started talking about dice for no apparent reason I was put off. I still tried the game and it seemed like it would in fact be a nice romp around a galaxy. Then they gave me a gun, but when I tried to shoot it, it didn't matter how much I adjusted my aim and position and it barely mattered how close I was, the shots didn't go where I was aiming most of the time. Before too long I realized (or was told by a character, I don't remember) that I'd have to level up shooting to aim better. I gave the game about five more minutes, put it away, and never looked back.

KotOR's gameplay is about stats and equipment, preparation - not dexterity. Complaining about it is like complaining checkers isn't like football.

Anyway, you missed out on a fantastic game. Your loss.

Once again Vanquish, being the masterpiece that it is, gets leveling up stuff right.

If you haven't played Vanquish, then here's how it works. You can carry 3 weapons, and grenades. If you pick up a weapon you already have, your ammo is refilled. If you pick up a weapon level powerup, whatever weapon you have equipped gets more powerful, for instance doing more damage, holding more ammo, faster lock ons, etc. These powerups are not random - they drop in specific circumstances. For instance, kill a group of enemies very quickly, and you'll get a drop. If you don't you get nothing.

But there is another way to level up your weapon. If you pick up a weapon you already have, and you have full ammo for it, then the weapon increases in power. This is how most of the weapon leveling is done.

Now, this is awesome because you are presented with a choice. Since you can only hold 3 weapons, not only do you have to balance which weapons you have to do each part of the game, but you also have to think about leveling them up. Do you swap weapons so you have the perfect combination for a portion of the level, or do you keep non optimal weapons to level up? Also, because you need full ammo to level them up, you have to balance using / not using vs leveling up. Grenades in particular are so useful, that you need to find parts of the game you can do without grenades to level them up.

This is great because it plays well to each individual play style, and gives you a lot of flexibility to find what's right for you. There is no best way to go about leveling up or not leveling up your weapons. You may choose to do so not at all or sparingly so you can have the flexibility of having whatever weapon you want during the game. You can level up whatever weapons suit your style.

But in no way is it mandatory, nor is it grinding, because it's a strategic decision. There's nothing strategic about grinding away to get a higher level; there's no downside other than your time being wasted.

So, you can do leveling up in cool ways, and it's not necessarily bad.

to put it briefly, Cody and Leviathan, thanks, it's good to hear how it can work, and your confidence gives me confidence

The intersection of "PLayer skill" (you) vs. "Character skill" (your level in game) is a classic game design tradeoff. Looked at linearly, Kotor, Baldur's gate, or old school JRPGs sit at one end (all that matters is character skill), while Halo (pre 4) and quake/UT sit at the other.

Developers have been getting better at maximizing the middle though. Many Free to play action games require a ton of skill and teamwork, but still with large amounts to unlock, and ways to grow your character. Planetside 2, or tribes for example. In the single player space, Dark Souls/Demon Souls also do an excellent job of letting your character grow, while requiring you to play better.

As for destiny, tackling this divide seems to be one of the main design goals. At the media event Jones described 7 pillars, 4 of which seem to tie directly into what you are worried about.

A bunch of fun things to do. Bungie calls Destiny "a sandbox with a lot of tools" that puts players in situations "where they can be successful." Jones says Bungie has been deliberate about creating a broad range of activities for players to enjoy in groups or alone, in casual or intense scenarios.

Rewards players care about. "Imagine you could spend an hour and accomplish something," Jones says. "We have a lot of great things [in Destiny] to find, earn and make. Everything you do generates these rewards to customize your character."

A new experience every night. Bungie wants players to have a different experience every time they play, planning rare, time-limited and emergent activities. Jones hopes that players will sign on for a game of Destiny, but get distracted by the variety of content and activities within.

Enjoyable by the tired, impatient and distracted. Bungie believes that players don’t play games to "work hard, read or go the internet to figure out our bullshit." The core experience, Jones says, has to be delivered as simply and easily as possible. And that pillar led Bungie to "throw out a bunch of dearly-held ideas."

http://www.polygon.com/2013/2/17/3993058/destiny-bungie-first-look-preview

The last one directly applies to what you are saying. It implies that Bungie won't build a complicated stat systems, and they are looking for things to be easily explainable. In other words, intuitive predictable response to your actions, more like Halo, but unlike a game based on dice rolls. (FWIW I'm the kind of person who likes to play games that make me go out on the internet and look stuff up.)

The others deal with another major problem in Role Playing games: Grinding. Grinding is the act where you repeat a section of the game not because you enjoy it, but because it will get your character stronger. These items are pretty explicitly rejecting that. Notice, "Accomplish something in an hour" and "Variety of content" "A new experience every night." Here, Jones clearly rejects grinding, and strengthening your character without doing something rewarding.

I'm really curious to see how, and if these goals are achieved.

They can always sell double EXP gain as part of the season pass, like Gears of War Judgment

please don't do this.

As we discussed the other day, while I do object to such systems being in a competitive multiplayer environment like that of Halo, I don't have any problem with them in a single-player/co-operative environment. I'm picky with my RPGs and mechanics are a big deal, but if anyone can merge FPS gameplay with RPG elements and open-world quasi-MMO elements, it'd be Bungie.