Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive (Destiny)
The beta is done and dusted, the game is under 6 weeks away, but for some reason we're still in the dark about core gameplay concepts. From today's Eurogamer article about raids in Destiny:
Destiny's exact level cap has yet to be stated, but Smith talks of content designed for characters higher than level 20 that you'll need to continue working towards.
Why, this late in the game, won't you just tell us what the level cap is? This is not a spoiler! Worse, this seems to be symptomatic of an ill-advised desire to keep details under your hat for some ‘big reveal’, only when you actually do reveal them people just nod and say ‘Ok’. In short: there's no benefit to keeping them to yourself.
Mere days before the beta started, DeeJ was typically tight-lipped about what the level cap in the beta would be:
It's not something we've revealed yet. But all will become apparent within a matter of days.
…implying that maybe it wasn't set in stone, or that it might change during the course of the beta. But no; it was 8. The level cap was 8. For the whole beta. So why not just say that? Why exactly would you waste peoples’ time by suggesting it might be more complicated than that? I'm wondering just how many collective hours players in the beta wasted hoarding level 9+ items in their vault, in vain hope they might get to use them in the beta.
A little bit of mystery is fine, but I'm sick and tired of this faux-enigmatic attitude. It's not helpful, and if you keep it up it's inevitably going to make gamers feel short-changed when the truth emerges (already there have been many conversations about how the breadth of the explorable worlds feels like a bait-and-switch). Is it so much to ask that you treat your customers like adults?
The beta is done and dusted, the game is under 6 weeks away, but for some reason we're still in the dark about core gameplay concepts. From today's Eurogamer article about raids in Destiny:
Destiny's exact level cap has yet to be stated, but Smith talks of content designed for characters higher than level 20 that you'll need to continue working towards.
Why, this late in the game, won't you just tell us what the level cap is? This is not a spoiler! Worse, this seems to be symptomatic of an ill-advised desire to keep details under your hat for some ‘big reveal’, only when you actually do reveal them people just nod and say ‘Ok’. In short: there's no benefit to keeping them to yourself.Mere days before the beta started, DeeJ was typically tight-lipped about what the level cap in the beta would be:
It's not something we've revealed yet. But all will become apparent within a matter of days.
…implying that maybe it wasn't set in stone, or that it might change during the course of the beta. But no; it was 8. The level cap was 8. For the whole beta. So why not just say that? Why exactly would you waste peoples’ time by suggesting it might be more complicated than that? I'm wondering just how many collective hours players in the beta wasted hoarding level 9+ items in their vault, in vain hope they might get to use them in the beta.A little bit of mystery is fine, but I'm sick and tired of this faux-enigmatic attitude. It's not helpful, and if you keep it up it's inevitably going to make gamers feel short-changed when the truth emerges (already there have been many conversations about how the breadth of the explorable worlds feels like a bait-and-switch). Is it so much to ask that you treat your customers like adults?
A lot of what Destiny is, is very hard to explain and much better experienced to truly understand.
I don't see how giving us whatever details we demand is treating us like adults.
What?
A lot of what Destiny is, is very hard to explain and much better experienced to truly understand.
You need to experience the level cap to understand what it is?
I don't see how giving us whatever details we demand is treating us like adults.
There's a massive gulf between making ‘demands’ and the way Bungie has drip-fed details about the game. When I talk about being treated like adults, it's largely driven by knowledge of how other game developers communicate with their fans and customers. When you put companies that are more open on one end of the scale and those that are closed and reluctant to share details on the other, the latter does start to seem patronising.
What?
by Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) 
, London, Ontario, Canada, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 07:16 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
You need to experience the level cap to understand what it is?
Arguably yes, in relation to other RPGs/MMOs/etc. For some folks "level cap" means the character can't improve beyond that point and you're just casting about for better loot; that's not how it works in Destiny, and I'd argue that fixating on a number is like the bizzare fixation on Matchmaking ranks back when Halo actually showed a number for them.
-- Steve thinks this kind of fussing over minor (yes, minor) details arises before every Bungie release. You'd think he'd be resigned to it by now.
What?
You need to experience the level cap to understand what it is?
Arguably yes, in relation to other RPGs/MMOs/etc. For some folks "level cap" means the character can't improve beyond that point and you're just casting about for better loot; that's not how it works in Destiny
That doesn't seem to chime with my understanding of how levelling works based on what Bungie have said, but maybe that's part of the problem, that they haven't been clear about that either. One article I read suggested that once you hit the level cap you continue to gain experience that can be used to create motes of light, another currency to use on items and other upgrades. But otherwise the standard MMO pattern of hitting the level cap and then focusing on improving your gear seems very much to be how Destiny's endgame will work. What have you read that seems to contradict that?
I'd argue that fixating on a number is like the bizzare fixation on Matchmaking ranks back when Halo actually showed a number for them.
There's no comparison; one of these is a relative indicator of skill, the other is a point on a linear progression line that everyone can eventually reach, just in different timeframes.
Does it *really* matter?
by TTL Demag0gue , Within the shadow of the Traveler, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 08:09 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
You need to experience the level cap to understand what it is?
Arguably yes, in relation to other RPGs/MMOs/etc. For some folks "level cap" means the character can't improve beyond that point and you're just casting about for better loot; that's not how it works in Destiny
That doesn't seem to chime with my understanding of how levelling works based on what Bungie have said, but maybe that's part of the problem, that they haven't been clear about that either. One article I read suggested that once you hit the level cap you continue to gain experience that can be used to create motes of light, another currency to use on items and other upgrades. But otherwise the standard MMO pattern of hitting the level cap and then focusing on improving your gear seems very much to be how Destiny's endgame will work. What have you read that seems to contradict that?
I'd argue that fixating on a number is like the bizzare fixation on Matchmaking ranks back when Halo actually showed a number for them.
There's no comparison; one of these is a relative indicator of skill, the other is a point on a linear progression line that everyone can eventually reach, just in different timeframes.
You're the kind of person who thumbs straight to the back of book to read the ending first, aren't you? ;-P
Would you rather have Bungie spoon-feed you every scrap and tid-bit of information right now about how Destiny's leveling mechanics work, or would you rather wait and experience it first-hand? As I understand it, they're continuing to be cagey with the details because they'd rather the community delve in and figure all this stuff out for themselves. As the receiver, it's more fun to tear the wrapping off the present yourself rather than have someone else do it for you. As the giver, it's more enjoyable to hand someone the wrapped present and watch their eyes light up as they discover what it is. Personal opinion, of course.
I get that not everyone works like this -- some people don't like suspense -- but personally I'd much rather Bungie continue to play things close to the chest, guarding the answers to those questions, so that I can learn about and enjoy Destiny on my own.
Does it *really* matter?
You're the kind of person who thumbs straight to the back of book to read the ending first, aren't you? ;-P
No.
I'm the kind of person who reads the rules for a board game first rather than fumbles through a game pausing every now and then to consult them.
This is nothing to do with spoiling a story. I'm not even sure where you'd get that from.
Would you rather have Bungie spoon-feed you every scrap and tid-bit of information right now about how Destiny's leveling mechanics work, or would you rather wait and experience it first-hand?
I will experience levelling first hand regardless of how they tell me about the mechanics. Knowing that I've hit the level cap and how it will impact my gameplay experience in advance will be more useful than the sudden ‘Oh.’ moment when you hit it unexpectedly and realise that there are no more story missions to play, and that I need to start gathering a 6-person team for a Raid.
As I understand it, they're continuing to be cagey with the details because they'd rather the community delve in and figure all this stuff out for themselves. As the receiver, it's more fun to tear the wrapping off the present yourself rather than have someone else do it for you. As the giver, it's more enjoyable to hand someone the wrapped present and watch their eyes light up as they discover what it is. Personal opinion, of course.
Yeah yeah, it's a mysterious fantastic journey christmas present blah blah blah.
I get that not everyone works like this -- some people don't like suspense
I like suspense. I don't like pretense.
Does it *really* matter?
by Chris101b , Thursday, July 31, 2014, 19:25 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
I'm the kind of person who reads the rules for a board game first rather than fumbles through a game pausing every now and then to consult them.
It sounds like you are the type that would call up the boardgame company before the boardgame is released and demand to know the rules ahead of time.
You say that you want to read the rules before you play. Fortunately, most of the Bungie games come with both a manual inside the box, and (usually) a strategy guide. And the cool thing is that everything you read in both of those is going to be 100% final. If you want to know every detail about the game, then wait until it releases, and then read up to your hearts content.
Blasting Bungie and saying that what they are doing is WRONG and DISRESPECTFUL is stupid. They don't owe you any information, heck they don't even owe you a game. You will get your information one way or another. It isn't Bungie's fault that you are impatient.
Does it *really* matter?
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 11:24 (3772 days ago) @ TTL Demag0gue
Would you rather have Bungie spoon-feed you every scrap and tid-bit of information right now about how Destiny's leveling mechanics work, or would you rather wait and experience it first-hand? As I understand it, they're continuing to be cagey with the details because they'd rather the community delve in and figure all this stuff out for themselves.
He could always buy the strategy guide. I wish Bungie would have went with Future Press instead of BradyGames, but oh well :-p
Does it *really* matter?
Would you rather have Bungie spoon-feed you every scrap and tid-bit of information right now about how Destiny's leveling mechanics work, or would you rather wait and experience it first-hand? As I understand it, they're continuing to be cagey with the details because they'd rather the community delve in and figure all this stuff out for themselves.
He could always buy the strategy guide. I wish Bungie would have went with Future Press instead of BradyGames, but oh well :-p
Considering the complexity, it would be cool if DBO had it's own "Noob Guide to Destiny" or something, covering the basics.
For example, I talked to a guy that didn't know enemies had different levels, didn't understand the number on their health bar indicated anything. He was confused why enemies were taking different damage.
Just sayin'..
Does it *really* matter?
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 12:16 (3772 days ago) @ petetheduck
Would you rather have Bungie spoon-feed you every scrap and tid-bit of information right now about how Destiny's leveling mechanics work, or would you rather wait and experience it first-hand? As I understand it, they're continuing to be cagey with the details because they'd rather the community delve in and figure all this stuff out for themselves.
He could always buy the strategy guide. I wish Bungie would have went with Future Press instead of BradyGames, but oh well :-p
Considering the complexity, it would be cool if DBO had it's own "Noob Guide to Destiny" or something, covering the basics.For example, I talked to a guy that didn't know enemies had different levels, didn't understand the number on their health bar indicated anything. He was confused why enemies were taking different damage.
Just sayin'..
Sounds like a project for someone who can capture and cut (like me), and someone who can narrate with a good voice (which is not me.)
Who wants to team up?
Does it *really* matter?
Would you rather have Bungie spoon-feed you every scrap and tid-bit of information right now about how Destiny's leveling mechanics work, or would you rather wait and experience it first-hand? As I understand it, they're continuing to be cagey with the details because they'd rather the community delve in and figure all this stuff out for themselves.
He could always buy the strategy guide. I wish Bungie would have went with Future Press instead of BradyGames, but oh well :-p
Considering the complexity, it would be cool if DBO had it's own "Noob Guide to Destiny" or something, covering the basics.For example, I talked to a guy that didn't know enemies had different levels, didn't understand the number on their health bar indicated anything. He was confused why enemies were taking different damage.
Just sayin'..
Sounds like a project for someone who can capture and cut (like me), and someone who can narrate with a good voice (which is not me.)
I was actually thinking a written guide. I always hate trying to get information, especially a very specific piece of information, out of a long video.
Does it *really* matter?
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 14:33 (3772 days ago) @ petetheduck
Would you rather have Bungie spoon-feed you every scrap and tid-bit of information right now about how Destiny's leveling mechanics work, or would you rather wait and experience it first-hand? As I understand it, they're continuing to be cagey with the details because they'd rather the community delve in and figure all this stuff out for themselves.
He could always buy the strategy guide. I wish Bungie would have went with Future Press instead of BradyGames, but oh well :-p
Considering the complexity, it would be cool if DBO had it's own "Noob Guide to Destiny" or something, covering the basics.For example, I talked to a guy that didn't know enemies had different levels, didn't understand the number on their health bar indicated anything. He was confused why enemies were taking different damage.
Just sayin'..
Sounds like a project for someone who can capture and cut (like me), and someone who can narrate with a good voice (which is not me.)
I was actually thinking a written guide. I always hate trying to get information, especially a very specific piece of information, out of a long video.
I feel you man. I think the Mike Miller Halo 2 guide probably did it best. It's text, but with supplemental videos, for concepts that are best seen in motion.
What?
by Anton P. Nym (aka Steve) , London, Ontario, Canada, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 08:27 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
Arguably yes, in relation to other RPGs/MMOs/etc. For some folks "level cap" means the character can't improve beyond that point and you're just casting about for better loot; that's not how it works in Destiny
But otherwise the standard MMO pattern of hitting the level cap and then focusing on improving your gear seems very much to be how Destiny's endgame will work. What have you read that seems to contradict that?
I played the beta. During it I rapidly hit the level 8 cap on two characters... but I still gained new powers, attributes, and other stuff afterward even discounting new gear. Upgrading my grenades and knives, new powers for the Golden Gun, all those little circles underneath the main level indicator kept filling up as I played and I'd unlock new abilities. I don't know if they're tied to XP or to actual play (knives get better the more you use knives, frex) but my character kept getting more powerful without the level progression bar budging a millimeter.
-- Steve thinks Bungie's not talking about the level cap because it's not so huge a deal in Destiny as it is in other MMOs. If anything, he'd like them to talk up the reasons why that's so... but it's heavy going to describe in box quotes.
A lot of what Destiny is, is very hard to explain and much better experienced to truly understand.
You need to experience the level cap to understand what it is?
Yeah, I imagine seeing how different gear and abilities play into what it's like to go on a Level 22 strike is something deeper than what can easily be described and subsequently understood by the audience.
I don't see how giving us whatever details we demand is treating us like adults.
There's a massive gulf between making ‘demands’ and the way Bungie has drip-fed details about the game. When I talk about being treated like adults, it's largely driven by knowledge of how other game developers communicate with their fans and customers. When you put companies that are more open on one end of the scale and those that are closed and reluctant to share details on the other, the latter does start to seem patronising.
Well of course there's a gulf between making demands and the way Bungie has drip-fed details about the game, mostly to do with the subject of either of those statements, the people making demands and Bungie.
1. Bungie is releasing details about the game when and how they would like to, likely to make sure excitement about the game builds a certain way as well as make sure it's communicated in an easy to understand way.
2. You are demanding more details/information. How else would you describe what your post is? You're complaining about not getting more information?
Are you going to complain that you don't have a list of the bosses from the game? That there isn't a confirmed list of what every weapon and it's rarity is? My problem is that the scope of the details you want appears arbitrary and I see no good reason why it's important that you get it.
Also I take issue with your definition of patronising, I don't think it means what you're trying to say.
What?
1. Bungie is releasing details about the game when and how they would like to, likely to make sure excitement about the game builds a certain way as well as make sure it's communicated in an easy to understand way.
2. You are demanding more details/information. How else would you describe what your post is? You're complaining about not getting more information?
I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding with what I'm taking issue with, so perhaps I explained myself badly. This happened last time when DeeJ told me that my ‘impatience’ was appreciated, too — it's not impatience, and I'm not demanding more information. What I'm irritated by is the tone of communication which continues to be: we'll tell you some stuff but leave loads of it vague and wishy-washy, regardless of how basic and non-controversial it is because hey that's just how we roll.
Are you going to complain that you don't have a list of the bosses from the game? That there isn't a confirmed list of what every weapon and it's rarity is? My problem is that the scope of the details you want appears arbitrary and I see no good reason why it's important that you get it.
Other than the specific example of the level cap, I haven't actually really ‘demanded’ details on anything. And I do think there are loads of details which do justify being kept secret for players to discover for themselves (I wrote some examples in my initial reply, then deleted them because I thought it was too nitpicky; I guess it would have been more helpful to illustrate what I meant).
So then: level cap: not a spoiler; exotic weapons in the game spoiler!; number of raids/strikes in the game not a spoiler; location and details about what happens in raids/strikes: spoiler!.
Also I take issue with your definition of patronising, I don't think it means what you're trying to say.
My interpretation is that they think they know what's best for us. I dispute that; when you're talking about a massive scale game, then the chances are that a team of a few hundred is going to be wrong about a few things once a few million players get their hands on it and start working out the details. I think you have to accept this as truth, because that is what has happened with every large-scale game once it gets out into the public. Perhaps it's going a little too far to say that this is Bungie's overwhelming tone, but it certainly shows in flashes, and I think patronising is definitely the word I'd use to describe it when it happens.
So then: ... number of raids/strikes in the game not a spoiler
It's also pretty meaningless.
- Halo CE: 10 levels
- Halo 2: 13 levels
- Halo 3: 9 levels
- ODST: 8 levels
- Reach: 9 levels
Which game is the longest? Which game is the best? Which can you have the most fun with?
A list like that doesn't tell you the answer to any of those.
You also can't properly list what 'Lone Wolf' is in Reach without it also being a spoiler nor can you properly list what ODST's Hub World is.
Simple
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 11:21 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
You need to experience the level cap to understand what it is?
I know you've played Diablo man. Think of it like this:
In Diablo 2, you can put 20 skill points into a skill. 20 is max. But you can boost it past that by getting +to skill items. Thus, you could boost a skill to level 30 if you had items that gave you +10 to that skill.
Level in Destiny works the same way. That wasn't so hard.
P.S. Thanks for making it harder to avoid Destiny spoils :-p
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 06:13 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
Or maybe they should go dark until September 9. I mean, how much more convincing do they have to do?
I am sure there is a schedule in place for revealing certain details about the game. It's how adults have marketed these things for a long time now. You build excitement steadily, else you end up with a Watch Dogs type situation.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
Or maybe they should go dark until September 9. I mean, how much more convincing do they have to do?
In some ways I wish they did just go dark. But the marketing machine is in full gear now, so that's not going to happen.
To be clear: this is not about selling the game to me. I'm already invested. This is about the relationship between Bungie and the fans, which feels very much like it has a schoolmasterly, we know what is best for you tone, which grates for me. I appreciate it won't matter to everyone (particularly those who want to discover stuff for themselves), but in my opinion there are certain classes of information that don't justify being kept as guarded secrets.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 08:28 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
Or maybe they should go dark until September 9. I mean, how much more convincing do they have to do?
In some ways I wish they did just go dark. But the marketing machine is in full gear now, so that's not going to happen.To be clear: this is not about selling the game to me. I'm already invested. This is about the relationship between Bungie and the fans, which feels very much like it has a schoolmasterly, we know what is best for you tone, which grates for me.
To you, but not to me and I'd say it prevents the worse crime of overpromising, which Bungie has done in the past, and I suspect they have learned from the experience.
I appreciate it won't matter to everyone (particularly those who want to discover stuff for themselves), but in my opinion there are certain classes of information that don't justify being kept as guarded secrets.
That's a judgment call, and I'd say that those classes of information also are not really selling points, and Bungie should really be revealing only what they need to reveal to sell the game. I think they hit that point with the beta, actually. I don't think they need to tell anyone another thing.
Telling us something like the level cap will just prompt vigorous debate about whether it's high enough, with all debaters being equally clueless about what's it like to play this game at that level. It's not treating us like children to not tell us. It's treating us like adults who have a modicum of patience, adults who have a relationship with the developer and understand that when they say it's better to know less going in, they do know better than us. They want us to judge the game when we play it, not judge it based on a mental construct we create from information we cobble together and easily misconstrue. Especially with a new IP for a hybrid game that is similar but different from other games we know, the less said the better.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
To you, but not to me and I'd say it prevents the worse crime of overpromising, which Bungie has done in the past, and I suspect they have learned from the experience.
Good point: I know we promised that the level cap would be 30, but it's actually going to be 20…
![[image]](http://i.minus.com/iOfqC2Ibg5sze.gif)
Telling us something like the level cap will just prompt vigorous debate about whether it's high enough, with all debaters being equally clueless about what's it like to play this game at that level. It's not treating us like children to not tell us. It's treating us like adults who have a modicum of patience, adults who have a relationship with the developer and understand that when they say it's better to know less going in, they do know better than us. They want us to judge the game when we play it, not judge it based on a mental construct we create from information we cobble together and easily misconstrue. Especially with a new IP for a hybrid game that is similar but different from other games we know, the less said the better.
That's a rational basis for defending certain kinds of information-withholding, but I'm not sure it applies to everything. A debate about whether the level is high enough is utterly without foundation when we have no experience of what the game feels like at level 20. The main reason for wanting to know something as mechanical as that is in that you know how close you are to that number. I'd say it's akin to having a download progress bar or not; I don't think it's necessarily going to lead to premature judgements.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 08:53 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
To you, but not to me and I'd say it prevents the worse crime of overpromising, which Bungie has done in the past, and I suspect they have learned from the experience.
Good point: I know we promised that the level cap would be 30, but it's actually going to be 20…
Telling us something like the level cap will just prompt vigorous debate about whether it's high enough, with all debaters being equally clueless about what's it like to play this game at that level. It's not treating us like children to not tell us. It's treating us like adults who have a modicum of patience, adults who have a relationship with the developer and understand that when they say it's better to know less going in, they do know better than us. They want us to judge the game when we play it, not judge it based on a mental construct we create from information we cobble together and easily misconstrue. Especially with a new IP for a hybrid game that is similar but different from other games we know, the less said the better.
That's a rational basis for defending certain kinds of information-withholding, but I'm not sure it applies to everything. A debate about whether the level is high enough is utterly without foundation when we have no experience of what the game feels like at level 20. The main reason for wanting to know something as mechanical as that is in that you know how close you are to that number. I'd say it's akin to having a download progress bar or not; I don't think it's necessarily going to lead to premature judgements.
For the vast majority of those who care, I sincerely doubt the level cap will be unknown by the time they hit it, if there actually is a level cap. In the meantime, we've spared ourselves a bunch of useless speculation about what the level cap means for this game.
This just in... Bungie's official response!
See you September Ninth!
(Which is in 39 days FYI.)
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
The beta is done and dusted, the game is under 6 weeks away, but for some reason we're still in the dark about core gameplay concepts. From today's Eurogamer article about raids in Destiny:
Destiny's exact level cap has yet to be stated, but Smith talks of content designed for characters higher than level 20 that you'll need to continue working towards.
Why, this late in the game, won't you just tell us what the level cap is? This is not a spoiler! Worse, this seems to be symptomatic of an ill-advised desire to keep details under your hat for some ‘big reveal’, only when you actually do reveal them people just nod and say ‘Ok’. In short: there's no benefit to keeping them to yourself.
I suspect there isn't a level cap.
It hasn't really been discussed here, but on other forums, the thought is:
Level 1-20: You level up based on experience
Level 20-?: You level up based on what gear you have equipped
Apparently this is normal for MMOs, but since I don't play them, it's a bit of a foreign concept. I think they said it's based on some kind of Light rating that's been seen in some videos on the character screens.
Mere days before the beta started, DeeJ was typically tight-lipped about what the level cap in the beta would be:
It's not something we've revealed yet. But all will become apparent within a matter of days.
…implying that maybe it wasn't set in stone, or that it might change during the course of the beta. But no; it was 8. The level cap was 8. For the whole beta. So why not just say that? Why exactly would you waste peoples’ time by suggesting it might be more complicated than that? I'm wondering just how many collective hours players in the beta wasted hoarding level 9+ items in their vault, in vain hope they might get to use them in the beta.
Maybe they were worried Alpha players might skip the Beta if they thought it was the same level cap and that somehow implied the same experience/content. Just like they didn't reveal that the Beta was going to go open, they probably have a legitimate agenda for these kind of things, including failing to give details on the Playstation exclusive content timeline. Bungie is just not very open, but fortunately they're making an awesome game regardless.
A little bit of mystery is fine, but I'm sick and tired of this faux-enigmatic attitude. It's not helpful, and if you keep it up it's inevitably going to make gamers feel short-changed when the truth emerges (already there have been many conversations about how the breadth of the explorable worlds feels like a bait-and-switch). Is it so much to ask that you treat your customers like adults?
Lack of details can lead us to anticipating more than will actually be delivered, but, I mean, I think that's our own fault. I don't remember seeing anything Bungie said regarding the Explore areas that wasn't delivered by Old Russia and the Moon. If you can point to something specific, ..?
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
I suspect there isn't a level cap.
Level 1-20: You level up based on experience
Level 20-?: You level up based on what gear you have equippedApparently this is normal for MMOs, but since I don't play them, it's a bit of a foreign concept. I think they said it's based on some kind of Light rating that's been seen in some videos on the character screens.
Almost. It'd be more accurate to say that you progress throughout the course of the game, but in the pre-level cap stage your progression is primarily in terms of gaining levels (which comes with a concomitant increase in power), but once you hit the level cap your progression comes in the form of improved gear (which also improves your relative power).
That light rating thing is a mystery to me too, and I'd love to know what it meant; in fact it's a perfect example of the kind of information that I don't understand why Bungie doesn't just come out and explain. Every single player (more or less) will need to understand the mechanics to do with it eventually, just as they will have to understand the level cap. It's not a mysterious gift to be unwrapped: it's a game mechanic that we need to (eventually) understand.
Maybe they were worried Alpha players might skip the Beta if they thought it was the same level cap and that somehow implied the same experience/content. Just like they didn't reveal that the Beta was going to go open, they probably have a legitimate agenda for these kind of things, including failing to give details on the Playstation exclusive content timeline. Bungie is just not very open, but fortunately they're making an awesome game regardless.
I suspect not revealing that they'd make the beta open to everyone eventually was all part of the pre-order hype machine. The relatively tiny number of Alpha participants though makes me doubt that they kept the level cap a secret purely for their benefit. It remains an opaque and mysterious decision to me.
Lack of details can lead us to anticipating more than will actually be delivered, but, I mean, I think that's our own fault. I don't remember seeing anything Bungie said regarding the Explore areas that wasn't delivered by Old Russia and the Moon. If you can point to something specific, ..?
Check out this IGN article from last year, specifically this paragraph:
He then walked away from the wall to Old Russia the demo would ultimately take place in, backpedaling towards a cliff's edge. Below was a vast valley with a river winding through it and though the audience's good-natured pleas to leap off the cliff fell on deaf ears, the point was not that Bakken didn't do it but that he could. He could've walked all along the wall to Old Russia if he wanted, or down through that valley and out to those mountains miles away. The breadth of gameplay space is staggering…
Okay, this wasn't somebody from Bungie saying this, but it seems astonishing that they'd sanction somebody implying that the game had this scope when it manifestly doesn't. In the absence of information to the contrary, Bungie let the fiction that we'd be exploring massive, open areas take root, only for us to be disappointed when we discovered the truth.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
Lack of details can lead us to anticipating more than will actually be delivered, but, I mean, I think that's our own fault. I don't remember seeing anything Bungie said regarding the Explore areas that wasn't delivered by Old Russia and the Moon. If you can point to something specific, ..?
Check out this IGN article from last year, specifically this paragraph:
He then walked away from the wall to Old Russia the demo would ultimately take place in, backpedaling towards a cliff's edge. Below was a vast valley with a river winding through it and though the audience's good-natured pleas to leap off the cliff fell on deaf ears, the point was not that Bakken didn't do it but that he could. He could've walked all along the wall to Old Russia if he wanted, or down through that valley and out to those mountains miles away. The breadth of gameplay space is staggering…
Okay, this wasn't somebody from Bungie saying this, but it seems astonishing that they'd sanction somebody implying that the game had this scope when it manifestly doesn't. In the absence of information to the contrary, Bungie let the fiction that we'd be exploring massive, open areas take root, only for us to be disappointed when we discovered the truth.
That's actually a great example, but yeah, didn't come from somebody from Bungie.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
That's actually a great example, but yeah, didn't come from somebody from Bungie.
The more I think about it, though, the more I have to wonder how this description came into existence. For a games journalist to just assume that the game permitted this doesn't make sense to me; they must have asked, and somebody at Bungie must have nodded or otherwise indicated that it was the case. Whether it was wilfully withholding the truth, or feeding somebody something that wasn't true, they permitted the fiction to be published.
As has been written elsewhere (I forget who said it) we'll probably learn the truth of all this in 10 years’ time, much like we eventually did with Halo 2. I suspect once that happens we'll learn that (once again) their vision and their ability to deliver on it weren't entirely in alignment…
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
by Phoenix_9286 , Thursday, July 31, 2014, 09:57 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
That's actually a great example, but yeah, didn't come from somebody from Bungie.
The more I think about it, though, the more I have to wonder how this description came into existence. For a games journalist to just assume that the game permitted this doesn't make sense to me; they must have asked, and somebody at Bungie must have nodded or otherwise indicated that it was the case. Whether it was wilfully withholding the truth, or feeding somebody something that wasn't true, they permitted the fiction to be published.
BAM. Should be linked to the appropriate time. This was, if memory serves, one of the last public demos of the Old Russia space at E3 2013, and as one of the last, they had a little more fun with it and deviated from the script.
While he says all of what's behind him is playable space and real geometry and one day they hope to send us there, I can't help but wonder if perhaps we misinterpreted his remark. He's not lying, one day they MIGHT send us there. Or perhaps he was telling something of a white lie. The remark is true, he's just demonstrating in the wrong direction. After all, what's behind him is far more visible and expansive than what's in front of him, which is a giant wall. He could've even meant the area just around the wrong of the wall, which, like we saw in the Beta, was fairly expansive for no real reason. Or he could've just been making a false remark and was reprimanded for it later.
Ultimately it doesn't bother me so much. I remember being really psyched about that comment, and then completely forgot about it until you brought it up. In a lot of ways I'm disappointed Destiny is as constrained as it is right now, but with any luck that'll change over time.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
While he says all of what's behind him is playable space and real geometry and one day they hope to send us there, I can't help but wonder if perhaps we misinterpreted his remark. He's not lying, one day they MIGHT send us there. Or perhaps he was telling something of a white lie. The remark is true, he's just demonstrating in the wrong direction. After all, what's behind him is far more visible and expansive than what's in front of him, which is a giant wall. He could've even meant the area just around the wrong of the wall, which, like we saw in the Beta, was fairly expansive for no real reason. Or he could've just been making a false remark and was reprimanded for it later.
It does make me wonder. If Bungie were even remotely open they might talk about what they really meant, but they're a bit like Apple in that regard: they only ever tend to acknowledge their mistakes a while after the fact, and control the PR in the medium term. Years later we get to hear oh god that was *such* a fuck up! on some behind-the-scenes footage somewhere.
But it's kind of too late, expectations are set. Here's the top comment on that video:
![[image]](http://snap.kapowaz.net/5u7wm.png)
Good luck putting that one back in the box, Pandora.
Woah
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 11:39 (3772 days ago) @ Phoenix_9286
edited by Cody Miller, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 11:46
BAM. Should be linked to the appropriate time. This was, if memory serves, one of the last public demos of the Old Russia space at E3 2013, and as one of the last, they had a little more fun with it and deviated from the script.
Things to note:
-He picks up a drop, and it's an exotic. No need to identify! Nice!
-No damage numbers
-Seems like better lighting effects
-There are things called talent points
-They show off a planet with rings :-p
I kind of want this version of the game :-p
Woah
by Phoenix_9286 , Thursday, July 31, 2014, 13:44 (3772 days ago) @ Cody Miller
BAM. Should be linked to the appropriate time. This was, if memory serves, one of the last public demos of the Old Russia space at E3 2013, and as one of the last, they had a little more fun with it and deviated from the script.
Things to note:-He picks up a drop, and it's an exotic. No need to identify! Nice!
-No damage numbers
-Seems like better lighting effects
-There are things called talent points
-They show off a planet with rings :-pI kind of want this version of the game :-p
Prerelease always looks mo' betta.
I was never clear on the engrams, are the green drops ALWAYS going to be an engram you need decrypted? Or is it random? Because I swear I picked up green ones and they behaved like normal loot.
I was never clear on the engrams, are the green drops ALWAYS going to be an engram you need decrypted? Or is it random? Because I swear I picked up green ones and they behaved like normal loot.
I THINK as loot drops it will always be an engram. I know I've gotten non-encrypted greens in a chest.
Woah
by Phoenix_9286 , Thursday, July 31, 2014, 14:42 (3772 days ago) @ Xenos
I was never clear on the engrams, are the green drops ALWAYS going to be an engram you need decrypted? Or is it random? Because I swear I picked up green ones and they behaved like normal loot.
I THINK as loot drops it will always be an engram. I know I've gotten non-encrypted greens in a chest.
With any luck that'll either be something the manual covers, or it'll be made a little more clear.
And speaking of chests, I frequently felt like people in your fire team would inevitably get gipped.
- Yay, I got 125 glimmer, a white armor piece, and a green weapon!
- I only got 125 glimmer and a white weapon.
- I don't know why you're complaining, all I got was 125 glimmer. :(
I'd kinda like to see some information behind how the separate loot streams work and are decided upon, because it seems to me if we're all in the same area when the chest is opened, and we all pull from it at the same time, we should all get equivalent items.
It sucks to be the guy on the team that keeps getting weapon drops from chests while everyone else is only getting glimmer. It sucks more that you can't share the wealth.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
by Chris101b , Thursday, July 31, 2014, 19:43 (3772 days ago) @ Phoenix_9286
I think all of that IS playable, but that they deactivated it for the Beta. In the video here is what he says word for word:
.... A place that I like to call older Russia. So all of this is playable space that we hope to one day get to send you to. It is all real geometry. You could go there, we could go there right now, but we have a schedule to keep.
I don't think that he would say this so clearly if he wasn't actually sure. We know that they beta was just a taste of what we could play in the full game, and I know for a fact that there were still a bunch of areas that were inaccessible. I'm pretty sure that we are going to be able to go there.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
Does anyone remember from the Alpha if that space was accessible?
I don't see how it could be. There's an insta-kill barrier blocking it from player access.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
by Chris101b , Thursday, July 31, 2014, 23:25 (3772 days ago) @ car15
I'm betting that they made it inaccessible for the Alpha and the Beta but will make it available in the full game. Just like they did with many other areas in Old Russia. They had doors that were blocked off that should be open in the full game.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 23:40 (3772 days ago) @ Chris101b
Heh. That would be amazing. I didn't look at it long as I figured it was just a background / skybox part... but maybe it wasn't :)
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
by Phoenix_9286 , Thursday, July 31, 2014, 23:40 (3772 days ago) @ Chris101b
And out where he was pointing was a fairly expansive piece of map that not only could you not return to, but there were no obvious ways down, and it didn't appear on the Director.
As you've already established, they can open that door back up, that's a not a big deal. But I doubt they made up a different Director just for the Alpha and Beta. It could be marked as another area on Earth, and maybe it is.
Personally, I'd rather err on the side of caution. It'd be nice to have all that to explore, but I'm not getting my hopes up it'll happen.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 08:11 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
I think there are some very good points being made here. I totally understand the need to keep info close to the chest during development, but it does frustrate me when certain things are kept mysterious for no apparent reason.
Like when Bungie first showed the gameplay demo at E3 2013, and everyone was like "Oh cool, you've got Peter Dinklage in the game" and Bungie's response was "we're not talking about the cast at this time". But... it was clearly Peter Dinklage... we all heard it! If you're not willing to talk about that detail, why show it?
I think the thing we all need to remember is that any Bungie employee that goes into an interview has a list of things they are allowed to talk about. Anything not on that list gets the "we're not talking about that at this time" response. They're not trying to be mysterious, or anything like that. They're just sticking to the stuff they're allowed to discuss.
But I do agree it can come across as silly and frustrating to the fans.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
Like when Bungie first showed the gameplay demo at E3 2013, and everyone was like "Oh cool, you've got Peter Dinklage in the game" and Bungie's response was "we're not talking about the cast at this time". But... it was clearly Peter Dinklage... we all heard it! If you're not willing to talk about that detail, why show it?
Very good example — I'd forgotten about that. And ultimately we're none the wiser as to why they kept that secret, it doesn't seem to make sense with hindsight. It just seems like needless faux secrecy.
I think the thing we all need to remember is that any Bungie employee that goes into an interview has a list of things they are allowed to talk about. Anything not on that list gets the "we're not talking about that at this time" response. They're not trying to be mysterious, or anything like that. They're just sticking to the stuff they're allowed to discuss.
Undoubtedly this is the case with a lot of things that could impact on the revenue of the franchise. And early on I get that they wanted to keep some competitive advantage over other game studios that might want to do something similar. But later on these rules start to seem draconian and aloof.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 08:25 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
It's also a technique to avoid mixed messaging. Look at what happened when Microsoft employees went off the rails during the Xbox One announcement: loads of confusion caused by conflicting statements. Bungie (and any other studio) want to avoid those problems, so they limit the info being discussed at any given event. It just comes across as being cagey.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 08:35 (3772 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
It's also a technique to avoid mixed messaging. Look at what happened when Microsoft employees went off the rails during the Xbox One announcement: loads of confusion caused by conflicting statements. Bungie (and any other studio) want to avoid those problems, so they limit the info being discussed at any given event. It just comes across as being cagey.
And it's a good policy too. Look how much we as a community freak out when they use "Raid" or "Raids." Something I doubt they thought they had to be clear on, and now probably wish they had been more clear on it.
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
And it's a good policy too. Look how much we as a community freak out when they use "Raid" or "Raids." Something I doubt they thought they had to be clear on, and now probably wish they had been more clear on it.
Again, I feel like they could have headed this off at the pass:
There will be one raid in the initial retail release at launch. We plan to add more in expansion packs over the coming years.
What's so hard about that?
There will be one raid in the initial retail release at launch.We plan to add more in expansion packs over the coming years.
Less is more. :)
Ok, Bungie: time to stop being evasive
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 08:31 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
It may be something we WANT to know, but it's not really something we NEED to know. I played countless RPGs as a kid and never knew a thing about the leveling system or the level cap before I picked up any of them. Really I think the only concern would be how clear the system will be in the game. As long as they've done their job right it will be clear enough that we don't need to know ahead of time how it works.
Also, from what I've read (which is every article or tidbit about Destiny I can get my hands on) I think it's actually pretty apparent how the leveling system will work in a general way. Level 20 is the cap for "regular" leveling. This is apparent because multiple screenshots have shown a level on the player card higher than 20, however we've also seen screenshots with level 20 in the character screen, but their player card has a higher level. From everything I've gathered this is because of Light (not to be confused with motes of light which are a currency) which a piece of armor gives us to level us past level 20.
Most of this information can be seen here: http://destinynews.net/light-level/ which seems to agree with my hypothesis.
The information we have definitely doesn't give every detail about how this system will work, but like I said above, as long as it's explained to us well in the game I don't see any reason why we NEED to know now.
Want vs Need
by marmot 1333 , Thursday, July 31, 2014, 09:23 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
The primary goal of Bungie's messaging is making sure that people easily know and understand that:
- We're making a new game / a new IP
- It's available on 4 different consoles
- It's an FPS
- It's a shared world shooter
Anything beyond that is for the super fans. (By virtue of being here and reading this, that's you.)
I don't see why anyone would need to know what the level cap is before playing; it didn't bother me that the level cap was ambiguous going into the beta. I'm sure within an hour of the game coming out, there will be information on the internet about the level cap. Personally, I will try my best to avoid any discussion until I have finished the at-launch story missions and maybe even all the at-launch strikes.
In this thread there have been some examples of mixed messages: Raid/Raids, Dinklage/unconfirmed (although that may very well have been due to some contractual agreement about using his name, not that they were trying to hide/obscure it). These examples show that even simple concepts can easily become ensnared in confusion, arguments, and outright misinformation ($500 million, anyone?). Thanks to the internet echo chamber, some things do get repeated ad nauseam, but it's hard to predict which bit of information will spiral out over the web in that way.
Bungie wants to keep their message simple, appealing, and easily accessible. They've said time and again they want to leave things for the player to find, to keep things mysterious.
The game itself is both complex enough that it's hard to explain, and has a straightforward, gestalt nature that is easily understandable when someone actually plays it.
I'm not trying to be combative, but some of your (kap) posts on these topics come across as entitled. I guess I just want to say: You want this information, but you don't need it.
Want vs Need
I'm not trying to be combative, but some of your (kap) posts on these topics come across as entitled. I guess I just want to say: You want this information, but you don't need it.
I'm having a hard time separating me, the messenger, from me, the gamer here. I'm trying to write stuff like this from an abstract, impersonal perspective: it's not so much what I personally want, it's what I think a lot of players would benefit from. So, if I'm coming across as entitled, that's probably just me putting myself across poorly. The only thing that I feel entitled to, as an adult with finite income and time to invest in games, is that whatever I choose to invest isn't treated with indifference.
But going back to this concept of want vs need, I find that a spurious argument, given that we're talking about an entertainment medium. Ultimately everything is a ‘want’ from that perspective, to some degree. That said, there are certain subjects where there is synergy between Bungie's goals and the desires of their target audience, and these tend to be in areas to do with setting expectations. It benefits both players and Bungie to be clear about what the game will entail, and what it won't.
The risk in not being clear about things like this, is that fans always tend to end up speculating. There are examples of this scattered all across this forum, and if the speculation is what embeds itself in the collective psyche of players, then Bungie might find they're fighting an uphill battle dispelling the myths. Perhaps those myths were more alluring than the reality? As I've said before, I don't want people to fixate too much on the level cap specifically as it's only an example of this kind of behaviour; there are plenty of others.
I think there are plenty of positive examples out there of how game developers can engage with their respective communities so as to share their thinking on direction and how they want to build games, without them spoiling the experience or encouraging an entitled mindset amongst the players. It would be great to see Bungie rise up and join this illustrious group.
Want vs Need
by marmot 1333 , Thursday, July 31, 2014, 11:02 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
But going back to this concept of want vs need, I find that a spurious argument, given that we're talking about an entertainment medium. Ultimately everything is a ‘want’ from that perspective, to some degree.
Fair enough. I was thinking of 'needs' as some of the top bullet points I made: what type of game is it? What system do I need to have to play it?
I was thinking of 'wants' as anything kind of beyond that: Story stuff, enemy stuff, MP stuff, progression information stuff.
I most definitely support your exposition, extrapolation, and inquisitiveness.
When it comes to information releases, Bungie has had long-scale game plan in mind, even since the game got leaked early. I'm sure there was a spreadsheet or a whiteboard somewhere with weeks-till-launch and what information got released when. They have definitely been drip-feeding us information for a long time now, slowly, slowly, but surely.
For me the Beta was incredibly exciting: this game that I had read about, thought about, for over a year: I was finally playing it, with my own two paws!
Want vs Need
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 11:53 (3772 days ago) @ marmot 1333
edited by Kermit, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 12:42
When it comes to information releases, Bungie has had long-scale game plan in mind, even since the game got leaked early. I'm sure there was a spreadsheet or a whiteboard somewhere with weeks-till-launch and what information got released when. They have definitely been drip-feeding us information for a long time now, slowly, slowly, but surely.For me the Beta was incredibly exciting: this game that I had read about, thought about, for over a year: I was finally playing it, with my own two paws!
I feel the same way. In regards to the slow-drip method of dispensing information, that's the Bungie way, and it's actually something that I admire. It requires a certain amount of trust from their fans, but they've earned that trust from me. I like when a company, be they Apple or Bungie, has the courage of their convictions and the confidence that they are building something special that they like and are excited about. My experience tells me that if they like it, I will, too. To me, they've earned the right to let the company name on the business card do a lot of the talking for them. They could lose that right, certainly, but until they do I delight in the not-knowing. They've demonstrated to me that they're smart and they have what Steve Jobs called taste. A lot of game companies actually do treat fans like children, while they play the over-indulgent, doting parents. We'll give you this and that, and if you throw a big enough tamtrum, we'll put peanut butter on your spaghetti, because who doesn't like peanut butter, right? I'd much rather have a company full of talent and vision that delivers something we didn't know we wanted on launch day over a more transparent company that delivers what they delivered last year but with the claim that this time they REALLY listened to the fans.
Want vs Need
It requires a certain amount of trust from their fans, but they've earned that trust from me. I like when a company, be they Apple or Bungie, has the courage of their convictions and the confidence that they are building something special that they like and are excited about.
I find the comparison with Apple to be interesting, because in certain ways it's true, but in others it's different. For one thing, once Apple does release something, they don't skimp on the details (yes, I know the game hasn't actually been released yet, but we're so close we can almost smell it. Do you smell it? ‘Cos I can smell it) — it's either completely secret, or it's completely in the open. Not so with Bungie.
Also, for years now developers have complained about Apple having exactly the kind of aloof, vague and unhelpful attitude towards their third-party developer community that I'd say Bungie suffers from at times, but at this year's WWDC it seems that Apple has done a complete about-face and is embracing a far more open attitude. The reaction from developers was overwhelmingly positive, and is best summed up in this tweet:
My 2¢: for the past few years it's felt like Apple's only goal was to put us in our place. Now it feels like they might want to be friends.
It's stuff like makes me certain that a less aloof attitude would be positive for Bungie. Showing the fanbase a little bit of the thinking that goes into the process builds engagement and investment; for all the people who are saying they enjoy the mystery, I don't think that will go away, we'll just get a different perspective on things when they do share them.
Want vs Need
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 16:20 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
I find the comparison with Apple to be interesting, because in certain ways it's true, but in others it's different. For one thing, once Apple does release something, they don't skimp on the details (yes, I know the game hasn't actually been released yet, but we're so close we can almost smell it. Do you smell it? ‘Cos I can smell it) — it's either completely secret, or it's completely in the open. Not so with Bungie.
What is Bungie not going to tell us once the game is out? The other stuff, about Apple opening things up a bit is a better example. This one though is veering off into "let's pretend to know what Bungie will say in the future" land. :(
Want vs Need
What is Bungie not going to tell us once the game is out?
Do you think that on release day they will immediately post a thorough explanation of how character levels will work, or will we all have to find that out for ourselves?
The other stuff, about Apple opening things up a bit is a better example. This one though is veering off into "let's pretend to know what Bungie will say in the future" land. :(
You've lost me…?
Want vs Need
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 18:24 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
What is Bungie not going to tell us once the game is out?
Do you think that on release day they will immediately post a thorough explanation of how character levels will work, or will we all have to find that out for ourselves?
The funny thing is I somewhat agree with you. Bungie's slow drip style isn't my favorite either. Why were things like how saves transfer a secret for so long when Bungie now tells reporters "it was the plan all along to keep saves in the same console family." Or why did it take so long for just the very basics of the gameplay (open worlds + story missions) to be revealed, especially when Bungie kept saying that they weren't sure they'd gotten the message across about what Destiny was. The message hadn't gotten across because they'd neither shown us their game nor describe their game, and certainly said nothing about explore mode. Historically, I was pretty annoyed by the mid-Halo era of [redacted] in weekly updates as well.
But this? Levels and level caps? It's just another part of the game same as equipping armor and weapons or approaching any enemy formation. It's not going to be complicated. It doesn't need a day one immediate explanation. We will figure it out by playing the game a few hours or days and that will be that. And, If they ever increase the level cap I would bet my miniature Ghost I have preordered that they'll explain what effects an increase will have BEFORE it happens.
I think it's just fine to not like Bungie's style of communication, but I think you've chosen the wrong issue to try and demonstrate that dislike.
It requires a certain amount of trust from their fans, but they've earned that trust from me. I like when a company, be they Apple or Bungie, has the courage of their convictions and the confidence that they are building something special that they like and are excited about.
I find the comparison with Apple to be interesting, because in certain ways it's true, but in others it's different. For one thing, once Apple does release something, they don't skimp on the details (yes, I know the game hasn't actually been released yet, but we're so close we can almost smell it. Do you smell it? ‘Cos I can smell it) — it's either completely secret, or it's completely in the open. Not so with Bungie.Also, for years now developers have complained about Apple having exactly the kind of aloof, vague and unhelpful attitude towards their third-party developer community that I'd say Bungie suffers from at times, but at this year's WWDC it seems that Apple has done a complete about-face and is embracing a far more open attitude. The reaction from developers was overwhelmingly positive, and is best summed up in this tweet:
My 2¢: for the past few years it's felt like Apple's only goal was to put us in our place. Now it feels like they might want to be friends.
It's stuff like makes me certain that a less aloof attitude would be positive for Bungie. Showing the fanbase a little bit of the thinking that goes into the process builds engagement and investment; for all the people who are saying they enjoy the mystery, I don't think that will go away, we'll just get a different perspective on things when they do share them.
It's a different situation. Developers need a certain amount of info from Apple to do their job. (See the subject line.) Let's take it as a given that Bungie has tested the heck out of Destiny, so they've got feedback from gamers and to that extent making the game has been a collaborative endeavor. Beyond that, they need only share enough with us to sell us the game--at this stage anyway.
Another analogy is film directors. There are only a handful of directors whose movies I'll go see without reading reviews of their films, but I cherish them, because I get to experience what they offer having no or few preconceived notions going in. I'm the same way with Bungie games.
No thanks, I'm good.
by Leviathan , Hotel Zanzibar, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 09:51 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
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No spoilers in subject lines, please
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Darth Vader is Luke's Father
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 12:20 (3772 days ago) @ petetheduck
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Seriously, That's Impossible
by MrPadraig08 , Steel City, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 13:33 (3772 days ago) @ RC
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Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
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Even for a computer.
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 13:43 (3772 days ago) @ MrPadraig08
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You Could Try Asking?
In the aftermath, we know you have questions. If you know us well, you know that we might save a lot of them to be answered in September by the game.
You Could Try Asking?
![[image]](http://snap.kapowaz.net/youwantitwhen.png)
You'd never read the answer anyhow. :p
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 15:16 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
- No text -
You Could Try Asking?
Hence the use of "try".
You Could Try Asking?
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, July 31, 2014, 20:17 (3772 days ago) @ kapowaz
You laugh, but the one and only question I ever sent Bungie was answered:
A perfect example of what I'm talking about
This image was posted over on Reddit:
![[image]](http://i.imgur.com/tqZUkf5.png)
There's a pretty lengthy conversation surrounding it, too, and this is the top comment:
Fucking thank you. I'm tired of everyone being confused and accidentally spreading wrong information.
Why are people ‘accidentally spreading wrong information’? Maybe because there is no official information? Incidentally, how do we even know that the description in the above is accurate? Where are they getting it from? Did Bungie post a detailed description of how levels and motes of light/light work that we all missed? Or are they gleaning it from little comments in interviews over the past few days and filling in the gaps? It's this kind of thing that leads to misinformation, and it's precisely why Bungie should be explicit about how the mechanics work.
A perfect example of what I'm talking about
by RC , UK, Friday, August 01, 2014, 06:16 (3771 days ago) @ kapowaz
This image was posted over on Reddit:
http://i.imgur.com/tqZUkf5.png
There's a pretty lengthy conversation surrounding it, too, and this is the top comment:
Fucking thank you. I'm tired of everyone being confused and accidentally spreading wrong information.
Why are people ‘accidentally spreading wrong information’? Maybe because there is no official information? Incidentally, how do we even know that the description in the above is accurate? Where are they getting it from? Did Bungie post a detailed description of how levels and motes of light/light work that we all missed? Or are they gleaning it from little comments in interviews over the past few days and filling in the gaps? It's this kind of thing that leads to misinformation, and it's precisely why Bungie should be explicit about how the mechanics work.
Or maybe people should stop posting images with information pulled out of their ass and acting like it's authoritative.
EDIT: ... and other people should stop believing them. It's all incredibly childish.
Yeah, it's not Bungie's fault people spread misinformation
by kidtsunami , Atlanta, GA, Friday, August 01, 2014, 06:37 (3771 days ago) @ RC
Even when Bungie DOES reveal details, people still parrot incorrect information.
Seems Straightforward Enough
You can't grow your characters beyond level 20 by conventional means - collecting experience points. Once you reach 20 you'll see XP collected into Motes of Light instead.
It's these Motes of Light which you can then craft into special armour - courtesy of the Speaker character in the game's Tower social hub.
This armour will boost your character stats higher (the highest shown so far is level 29), although the character menu itself will still show 20 as your upper limit.
These weapons have a light statistic - what we don't know is how these light numbers translate into a character level.
...Once someone bothers to articulate it properly. It's the bolded part that you'd also like to have explained and I can understand why, if you are that way inclined, the evasiveness on this can be irritating somewhat.