Even though I am certain that we will see more of this canon develop throughout the game, I wanted to see what were some thoughts on this "canon" piece prior to game release.

From what we know, it is true that humanity had expanded its reach to the Moon, Mars, Venus, and possibly beyond--we have yet to see if Humanity had any impact on Jupiter and Mercury.

The Traveler expanded our lifespan and gave us access to "technologies" and advances beyond what humanity had been able to achieve on its own. This we know.

What I am intrigued by is whether humanity fought an actual "war" against the Darkness or if we were simply taken by surprise and crushed within moments. Was the past experience against the Darkness like the Human-Covenant War in HALO which took 30 years, or was it a very short and crushing conflict in which we didn't even put up a fight?

One reason why I ask is because, as a true nerd, I am writing a blog of journal entries on my Guardian's past. However, I noticed that walking through Old Russia and the Moon, I didn't see a lot of battle and war junk lying around. I know that we only saw small geographical areas of an entire continent; however, if an actual war was fought, then I would expect to see more "scars" of that conflict.

What I am led to believe is that the conflict was very swift and ended quickly. However, I struggle with this because human population must have been huge at that point (especially considering a tripled lifespan) and, unless the Darkness can annihilate life in an instant, I haven't seen much of all that humanity at all.

Your thoughts.

You picked up on a lot of neat clues. Good job! :)

My view is that we fought the actual Darkness for a few reasons:

1. The Darkness is "returning" not "coming." That's been a part of Destiny for almost as long as we've known about the game.
2. While The City is getting some kind of protection from The Traveler it is also getting a lot from the basics: Big walls and big guns. The Twilight Gap for instance is shown as actively shooting down enemies even in the modern day.
3. In the Golden Age we had already built Warminds. We already had solar system patrols ready to engage enemies. I don't see the Golden Age as an age of militarization but its clear it also wasn't a Star Trek utopia. The interesting question is why have these things? The Traveler is said to have shared knowledge with Humanity. Could it have told us of the Darkness?
4. I'd like to think that the damage to The Traveler is something that our current enemies aren't really capable of. We don't have a ton of proof of that but it feels to me that it would require something a lot meaner and tougher to attack The Traveler than the aliens we're fighting right now.

So to expand on what you mentioned:

1) Do you believe it was a long (more than a year) or short conflict against the Darkness?If Humanity fought the Darkness, then it probably wasn't a spontaneous disaster that swallowed up humanity. Like I said, we are talking about billions and billions of lives ended...in an instant?

2) It would seem that the Darkness is an actual entity with "weapons" at its disposal. Like you said, nothing that we have seen in the Beta or trailer have shows us a weapon powerful enough to cause damage to the Traveler.

Obviously this is all talk with hardly any factual stuff to go on, since BUNGIE hasn't given us much to go on. However, I like seeing how plots and stories develop. I am in the military and I enjoy studying military history and systems so this element of scifis and fantasy worlds always intrigues me.

3. In the Golden Age we had already built Warminds. We already had solar system patrols ready to engage enemies. I don't see the Golden Age as an age of militarization but its clear it also wasn't a Star Trek utopia. The interesting question is why have these things? The Traveler is said to have shared knowledge with Humanity. Could it have told us of the Darkness?

Do we have any evidence that the Traveller actually spoke with Humanity? Perhaps we learned technologies from the Traveller simply by the fact that the Traveller existed or from creations of the Traveller like the Ghosts? In which case we couldn't have known about the darkness until it was too late.

Minor spoiler if you haven't read this book
The book series The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson reminds me a little bit of what we know about the Traveller sacrificing itself for Humanity. I wonder if we are in a similar situation to that.

Not a 30+ year war like in Halo for sure, but longer than a three day war most likely. Some things we do know:

- The conflict took long enough that people in Russia were able to pack up and drive in mass to the Cosmodrome seeking escape on a colony ship.There are a lot of cars, especially as seen in the 2013 E3 demo. So we can expect that these people at least had a warning that something bad was coming.

- That some of Humanity did in fact escape The Darkness to end up building The Reef somewhere in our solar system (like in the asteroid belt) suggest that the forces arrayed against Humanity weren't 100% all powerful as the Covenant generally were in space engagements where they often overcame humanity's superior numbers.

- There's the quote from the Grimoire: "Ask yourself: what threatened your Golden Age ancestors so much that they constructed the Exos to defend themselves?" Exos, as we're finding out, are really really advanced. To the point of being fully intelligent and having lifespans that stretch back to the Golden Age some hundreds of years ago. We're looking at a minimum of years of design for them I'd think.

With so little information it's hard to make an educated guess, but I'd think the war lasted a few years but less than a decade. Long enough for there to be Golden Age Warminds and weapons (the legendary guns we'll use are said to be from our Golden age) and Exos. I do think that once whatever defenses we had were finally broken through things went quickly from there. The miles of burnt out cars in Old Russia suggest something like a nuke that killed a lot of people in the same way at the same time, for instance.

I'm gonna have to pick up that book today :)

Is it a fantasy? (I guess I can look it up on Wikipedia but then that wouldn't be any fun).

I don't think we have any evidence the Traveler did much of anything. I don't even know if the Traveler lives inside the big ball in the sky or if he IS the sphere in the sky.

I am looking forward to some DESTINY fiction of some sorts, whether graphic novels or book novels.

3. In the Golden Age we had already built Warminds. We already had solar system patrols ready to engage enemies. I don't see the Golden Age as an age of militarization but its clear it also wasn't a Star Trek utopia. The interesting question is why have these things? The Traveler is said to have shared knowledge with Humanity. Could it have told us of the Darkness?

Do we have any evidence that the Traveller actually spoke with Humanity? Perhaps we learned technologies from the Traveller simply by the fact that the Traveller existed or from creations of the Traveller like the Ghosts? In which case we couldn't have known about the darkness until it was too late.

Yes. Bungie has said a few times that it shared information with us. I don't have any direct links or quotes at hand unfortunately, but the implication seemed to be that The Traveler did more than just show up and terraform worlds for us. Now, if it actually spoke or if it emailed over a .zip file or whatever we don't know. We really really don't know if it told us about The Darkeness. I kinda think it didn't. If we'd known extinction was coming we'd have built fortresses on other worlds instead of cities and academies.

- There's the quote from the Grimoire: "Ask yourself: what threatened your Golden Age ancestors so much that they constructed the Exos to defend themselves?" Exos, as we're finding out, are really really advanced. To the point of being fully intelligent and having lifespans that stretch back to the Golden Age some hundreds of years ago. We're looking at a minimum of years of design for them I'd think.

I have a hunch that this threat may have been the Cabal. It seems apparent that they are the "conventional" expansionist-military antagonists, bent on conquest and territory. Isn't there reference to standing against them at the Twilight Gap?

With so little information it's hard to make an educated guess, but I'd think the war lasted a few years but less than a decade. Long enough for there to be Golden Age Warminds and weapons (the legendary guns we'll use are said to be from our Golden age) and Exos. I do think that once whatever defenses we had were finally broken through things went quickly from there. The miles of burnt out cars in Old Russia suggest something like a nuke that killed a lot of people in the same way at the same time, for instance.

This is pretty good stuff you are pulling up. It's funny how much you can miss by not paying super close attention to everything. I guess every player gets as much as they want from the story as they want to get into.

So I agree:
The Warminds
The Exos
The legendary armor and weaponry
All of these are clues of a prolonged war of attrition (maybe).

I also agree with your last point: It seems like once the last line of defense broke, all of Earth was overwhelmed soon after that. Like a full blitzkrieg once there was no formal defense to hold against the Darkness.

I have my money on the .zip file. I'm just saying. Seems like the smart thing to do.

We know... or suspect... that London stood after the Traveler ended the war from that quote of... whichever Exo character it was... in the Tower where they said they were there when the Fallen burned London. We, of course, also have the concept art of Old Chicago and the definite locations of The Buried City on Mars and some architecture left on Venus. Whatever killed us either didn't want to destroy everything, didn't have the realistic capacity to destroy everything, or was stopped before it had the chance.

Hmm. I would be interested in finding out where it says this. I am looking forward to Mars and the Cabal. It seems like they will be a pretty crazy enemy, even for very tactically sound fire teams.

- There's the quote from the Grimoire: "Ask yourself: what threatened your Golden Age ancestors so much that they constructed the Exos to defend themselves?" Exos, as we're finding out, are really really advanced. To the point of being fully intelligent and having lifespans that stretch back to the Golden Age some hundreds of years ago. We're looking at a minimum of years of design for them I'd think.

I have a hunch that this threat may have been the Cabal. It seems apparent that they are the "conventional" expansionist-military antagonists, bent on conquest and territory. Isn't there reference to standing against them at the Twilight Gap?

Very possible. I too get this sense that the Cabal are not affiliated with The Darkness and are just in it for themselves. But that might be true of the Fallen and Vex too. So far, I think The Hive are the only ones we know are working for The Darkness.

Well, if one city was to remain after the Darkness, I would put my money on London. They fought off the Luftwaffe in WWII after all.

I was hoping my relatives in Puerto Rico and Mexico City would make it, but I guess you got to pick your battles. Sigh.

Hmm. I would be interested in finding out where it says this. I am looking forward to Mars and the Cabal. It seems like they will be a pretty crazy enemy, even for very tactically sound fire teams.

It says it here.

So far, I think The Hive are the only ones we know are working for The Darkness.

I remember reading somewhere (I'm trying to find it now) that the Vex are believed to have warped from another place in the universe to our system. The same source mentioned that the Vex were mass-produced somewhere in unknown space. It would make sense for the Vex to be affiliated with someone outside themselves.

And yes, I wouldn't mind the Cabal being their own empire trying to reap the rewards of a weakened humanity.

With so little information it's hard to make an educated guess, but I'd think the war lasted a few years but less than a decade. Long enough for there to be Golden Age Warminds and weapons (the legendary guns we'll use are said to be from our Golden age) and Exos. I do think that once whatever defenses we had were finally broken through things went quickly from there. The miles of burnt out cars in Old Russia suggest something like a nuke that killed a lot of people in the same way at the same time, for instance.

Can I get a source on this? Not because I doubt you and want to be an asshole - I'm actually curious about where it was said.

The book series The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson reminds me a little bit of what we know about the Traveller sacrificing itself for Humanity. I wonder if we are in a similar situation to that.

Explain. I'm not sure I'm tracking with you on that connection. :)

I'm gonna have to pick up that book today :)

Is it a fantasy? (I guess I can look it up on Wikipedia but then that wouldn't be any fun).

Epic fantasy, actually. There's two volumes out right now in the The Stormlight Archive -- The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance. Prepare yourself for massive tomes, though. Sanderson is not for light-weights. :)

Good to know! I appreciate the heads up!

So this statement here from Bungie is very interesting.

"In our darkest days, Humans, Exos, and Awoken found the Traveler where it made its last stand, low above Earth, silent and immobile. We built this City – our last – within its protective Shield, fighting countless wars to keep its peace. From that dark age, the Guardians of the City were born."

So, breaking that down:
1) The Traveler makes his last stand right above Earth.
2) Humans, Exos, and Awoken flood under his shield and begin to build The City.
3) Humanity fought "countless wars" to keep the City protected and standing.
(What would make the writers say "Countless wars"?)
4) The Guardians are a product of the defense of the City. Ergo, there were NO Guardians before the City was built.

Also, interestingly enough:

" Titans, Hunters, and Warlocks have finally returned to our long-lost worlds, only to find out we are not alone."

So this leads me to believe that many of these other species were not present when the Darkness first attacked Humanity and the Traveler.

Guardians predated the City. They helped build and defend it.

I have my money on the .zip file. I'm just saying. Seems like the smart thing to do.

Probably used a .sit file, so humanity had to download Stuffit.

Right but if the Guardians are the "Guardians of the City," then you cannot exist before the City does. Does that make sense? If you are a Knight of the Round Table, there first has to be a round table.

However, I do understand that Guardians, such as the Titans, helped build the walls of the City. So I guess, none predates the other. They came to exist along the other. City and the Guardians of it.

So this statement here from Bungie is very interesting.

"In our darkest days, Humans, Exos, and Awoken found the Traveler where it made its last stand, low above Earth, silent and immobile. We built this City – our last – within its protective Shield, fighting countless wars to keep its peace. From that dark age, the Guardians of the City were born."

So, breaking that down:
1) The Traveler makes his last stand right above Earth.
2) Humans, Exos, and Awoken flood under his shield and begin to build The City.
3) Humanity fought "countless wars" to keep the City protected and standing.
(What would make the writers say "Countless wars"?)
4) The Guardians are a product of the defense of the City. Ergo, there were NO Guardians before the City was built.

Close, but:

The first Titans built the Wall, and gave their lives to defend it. Now, you stand in the same high place, steadfast and sure, protecting all who shelter in your shadow. You hail from a long line of heroes, forged from strength and sacrifice. Our enemies may be deadly and merciless, but so are you.

So Guardians predated The City... or at least The City as we now know it. I think the Traveler settled over a city... just the only one it could reach after the battle and that city became The City.

They came from the wild lands, gathering in secret enclaves, slipping through the howling ruins of shattered cities, hoping to find the coast, find a ship, pick up the trail of an impossible dream. From the deep black came the Awoken, their eyes haunted. Exos marched in the refugee columns, cloaked in moss and shattered memories. And among them came the Ghosts, beginning their search. It was a time of vast suffering and terrible evil. But there was one hope: the promise of a refuge beneath the Traveler.

I figure Earth was left in a state of chaos after The Traveler drove away The Darkness. Billions dead, but still not a small number left alive. London, Old Chicago, and other cities not razed might have changed into the battlegrounds of warlords. I'd expect massive shortages of food, water, power. There might have been slavery and all kinds of abuses going on as those with power and with guns tried to gain whatever margin of safety they could. And remember, we know that The Fallen at least were making raids... all the more reason to consolidate whatever power you can.

As the second Grimoire quote says, even The Traveler would have become a hoped for promise. Ten years after the collapse people might still be wondering about what happened to The Traveler. Thirty years out with no one having seen it would become that the older generations knew about but something the younger had no first hand knowledge of. Hundred of years later (our Ghost says he been looking for us for centuries) and The Traveler would be all but a legend for people who didn't live under it.

On the brighter side, we'd have Ghosts all around the world reviving Guardians. Word of The City would get out, even if it was only a promise, a hope, or a legend. People would flock towards a supposed last safe city... if they were allowed to. If they could make the journey. Even in 2014 I would have to strain all my resources to relocate my life to Puerto Princessa where we think The Traveler is located. Imagine trying to do it with no airlines, no friendly cities, no reliable power or water or shelter. And with "terrible evil" lurking about in the forms of your fellow man as well as marauding space pirates or worse!

For a bit more on these things see my Speculation Saturday series. I think you'll find them interesting if you haven't already read them. :)

Right but if the Guardians are the "Guardians of the City," then you cannot exist before the City does. Does that make sense? If you are a Knight of the Round Table, there first has to be a round table.

Except, that in both cases, the Guardians and the Knights could exist before the objects that unified them under a single banner. I'm not sure why you'd think they couldn't...

This is pretty well written. Well done. I will most certainly make my way over to the page linked.

TravelerKnowledge.hex.sit.dmg

And yes... Humanity had to scramble for an old copy of Stuffit Expander :p

I'm not trying to use logic for this. This isn't a matter of logic but of how BUNGIE is putting together a fake universe. Don't insult me passive aggressively.

All I am saying is that if there were "Guardians" BEFORE the city and the Guardians that exists now are "The Guardians of the City" then one could say that they are two separate entities, even if the members of each group are exactly the same.

You have access to the same information about DESTINY that I do, so don't insult my intelligence. After all, all that we are doing here is speculating.

I'm not trying to use logic for this. This isn't a matter of logic but of how BUNGIE is putting together a fake universe. Don't insult me passive aggressively.

All I am saying is that if there were "Guardians" BEFORE the city and the Guardians that exists now are "The Guardians of the City" then one could say that they are two separate entities, even if the members of each group are exactly the same.

You have access to the same information about DESTINY that I do, so don't insult my intelligence. After all, all that we are doing here is speculating.

No need to get prickly. I really wasn't trying to be at all insulting. (Damn the lack of intonation in text!) :)

That said, I kind of see the point you were driving at with your fourth point. It's essentially an issue of semantics. Without a City to guard, there could be no Guardians, at least not of the City. They were certainly still Guardians, however, as defenders of humanity.

Agreed. I apologize. I take some pride in trying to be logical and rational so your statement hit me in a rough spot.

And yes, that is the point I was getting at. They could have both been Guardians but it is an issue of semantics.

Cool.

Agreed. I apologize. I take some pride in trying to be logical and rational so your statement hit me in a rough spot.

Heh, I don't generally run around with sharp sticks. Really! :)

And yes, that is the point I was getting at. They could have both been Guardians but it is an issue of semantics.

I'm actually really curious to learn more about the chronology of the Guardians, both just before the Collapse and then again just after. Should be fun to turn over some of those stones.

I hope we actually get that at some point, either through the game or through novels or something. I hope BUNGIE doesn't leave us in the dark about canon and context forever.

I hope we actually get that at some point, either through the game or through novels or something. I hope BUNGIE doesn't leave us in the dark about canon and context forever.

I've heard several of the developers mention in videos that learning more about the Collapse will be a significant part of what we do as Guardians, so I'm not too concerned they'll leave us out in the cold there. I do expect, though, that we won't necessarily learn a whole lot in this first installment of the game -- and I'm perfectly okay with that. :)

For sure! I'm expecting BUNGIE and Activision to spend their $100,000,000 in as much content and story as I can handle. Bring it!

Links to goodreads:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7235533-the-way-of-kings?from_search=true
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17332218-words-of-radiance?from_search=true

Both books are 1000+ pages. Although a few of those pages are drawings. I actually really like the drawings because they help me to imagine what the world looks like.

Links to goodreads:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7235533-the-way-of-kings?from_search=true
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17332218-words-of-radiance?from_search=true

Both books are 1000+ pages. Although a few of those pages are drawings. I actually really like the drawings because they help me to imagine what the world looks like.

And even though they are 1000+ pages, the reads are significantly easier than say Wheel of Time. For example as opposed to the many many main characters and 100's of supporting characters, Way of Kings and Words of Radiance (known as the Stormlight Archives) has 3 main characters and maybe two dozen supporting characters.

We get hints in the Stormlight Archive that the last time the world was in jeopardy, the Almighty (who is actually a being from another world if you look at the Cosmere) sacrificed himself to protect humanity from Odium who I think of as the Darkness. The death of the Almighty seems to have caused the spren to appear who are able to grant humanity amazing powers and abilities. They seem somewhat like the ghosts in that respect (though obviously with some differences). The humans who bond with these spren (Knights Radiance) must defend the last safe city (Urithiru) where all of the Knights Radiance live.

Wow. That is creepy similar to the context of Destiny. I hope it does t get them into trouble down then road.

- No text -

3. In the Golden Age we had already built Warminds. We already had solar system patrols ready to engage enemies. I don't see the Golden Age as an age of militarization but its clear it also wasn't a Star Trek utopia. The interesting question is why have these things? The Traveler is said to have shared knowledge with Humanity. Could it have told us of the Darkness?

Do we have any evidence that the Traveller actually spoke with Humanity? Perhaps we learned technologies from the Traveller simply by the fact that the Traveller existed or from creations of the Traveller like the Ghosts? In which case we couldn't have known about the darkness until it was too late.

Just to return to this, I found the evidence by accident tonight. Some guy named Jason Jones said this during an interview:

We don’t know if the Traveler was a ship, or a god, or a moon, or whatever, but we know this thing came and we know that it settled on Mars and that it began to share its amazing technology with us, and a city grew up around it, and all this.

There are parallels, sure, but the two stories are very different, in my opinion, hence my need to have the connection between the two spelled out. The parallels that exist are also relatively common themes in fiction.

If we'd known extinction was coming we'd have built fortresses on other worlds instead of cities and academies.

Very irresponsible of the Traveller; it had an ethical obligation to warn us so not just irresponsible: unethical! Nice to know what sort of entity we are dealing with.

True. I am guessing there is more to the Traveler's intentions than we are aware of. Sigh.

We can't know yet, they had a genocidal, mass murderer as a hero in h2 so we can't take anything for granted.

Are you referring to Master Chief?