Destiny is about the loot! The endgame is about getting great rewards!

Oh wait, but only one per week. We'll lock you out of these rewards since playing the game too much is somehow bad.

I hate MMO mechanics so much.

Saw this post before reading the WU. But now that I have read the WU...

Raids are like Destiny's weekly challenges, a la cooperative. And except not so much about rinse and repeat (like in Reach, where they just changed X and Y). And there's both a Normal and Hard level you can complete it at.

You can have 3 characters. So what if *one* character is locked out for that calender week? GO PLAY WITH THE OTHER TWO AND GRIND YER GEAR! Verses Reach, where you had one dude.

So really, 3 characters TIMES 2 difficulties EQUALS 6 play throughs for your precious raid gear a week.

There are other ways to get gear besides raids too...

HIiiiiiiiiiiiiii kornman00! :D

Saw this post before reading the WU. But now that I have read the WU...

Raids are like Destiny's weekly challenges, a la cooperative. And except not so much about rinse and repeat (like in Reach, where they just changed X and Y). And there's both a Normal and Hard level you can complete it at.

You can have 3 characters. So what if *one* character is locked out for that calender week? GO PLAY WITH THE OTHER TWO AND GRIND YER GEAR! Verses Reach, where you had one dude.

So really, 3 characters TIMES 2 difficulties EQUALS 6 play throughs for your precious raid gear a week.

There are other ways to get gear besides raids too...

There was also that "per encounter" bit which has me thinking it isn't like you're going to run the Raid and only get one special item, you'll walk away with a couple.

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Destiny is about the loot! The endgame is about getting great rewards!

Oh wait, but only one per week. We'll lock you out of these rewards since playing the game too much is somehow bad.

I hate MMO mechanics so much.

It is better than that. And realistically it sounds to me like beating the Raid on Hard (with a normal life) will take a week.

Plus it does say per encounter. If there are 3 encounters in the Raid, the math means we could get 6 pieces of gear in one week for each character. Sounds like plenty of room for playing in the week even for the most hardcore.

BTW, if you play 6-8 hours a day (or more) 7 days a week... Doesn't that constitute a "grind" anyway? There is NO way any developer could build content meant to be consumed at that speed without speed bumps. [Side Note: I did pull my numbers out of no where... So, some grace for error please. ;) Just trying to start the discussion.]

I could be wrong, but given the little bit we know about the raid - it sounds to me that for 95% of Destiny players, we won't even notice the lockout mechanic across all 3 of our character slots.

On a side note, how much time per week do you guys have to dedicate to this game? I have a full time job, a wife, and a 6 month old - and a community of real life friends who we spend time with (fortunately 3-4 of them are Guardians themselves. ;)

I estimate on average I will have between 6-15 hours per week to play (more early on). What about you guys? Cody, how much time will you have to invest each week?

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I agree, this is dumb. Why not just allow players to continue playing but without receiving any rewards. If it's a fun game mode, people will keep playing it regardless of whether they receive rewards.

My impression was you could play areas again. You just wouldn't get the biggest rewards again until the weekly reset. The lockout referred to the rewards, I think, and not stopping you from playing the raid itself. Even then, I'd expect Destiny's normal loot systems to keep working. You'd still be gaining experience toward the next unlocks, you'd still be picking up random (and potentially very high level!) weapon and armor engrams, and most importantly, you'd still be having a blast fighting through difficult challenges with friends and allies.

I estimate on average I will have between 6-15 hours per week to play (more early on). What about you guys? Cody, how much time will you have to invest each week?

Good question. I don't really know. I also have to determine whether I actually want to invest time in Destiny beyond just the story missions and occasional crucible.

It would be a shame if the investment elements blocked my access to the raid with stupid time locks, or effective time locks with repetitive tasks in order to power my character up enough to do it.

Oh, I guess I totally misread Cody's post. This might actually be something beneficial, people might actually replay raids either to practice or too help their friends. Unlike Warcraft, where you are locked into a specific instance for a week.

Good question. I don't really know. I also have to determine whether I actually want to invest time in Destiny beyond just the story missions and occasional crucible.

Cody, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but isn't this statement and what you are originally complaining about in this thread directly contradicting each other? Maybe I am misreading. Can you clarify, please?

Cody, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but isn't this statement and what you are originally complaining about in this thread directly contradicting each other? Maybe I am misreading. Can you clarify, please?

Not really. What makes you say so?

There could even be a gear/level requirement to have a decent chance of completing the raid as well. I do remember Luke saying that nightfall missions have some sort of level requirements due to enemies being of higher level. What if raid bosses are such a high level that you need to max your light level to stand a chance against them? Gear level may be a hidden obstacle that hasn't been considered yet, how many people will have the time/patience to grind for the necessary gear?

I took the first message to be complaining about only getting to do the raid once per week and this comment was that he didn't care about raids, but upon re-reading I guess he's saying he's more concerned about the loot?

There could even be a gear/level requirement to have a decent chance of completing the raid as well. I do remember Luke saying that nightfall missions have some sort of level requirements due to enemies being of higher level. What if raid bosses are such a high level that you need to max your light level to stand a chance against them? Gear level may be a hidden obstacle that hasn't been considered yet, how many people will have the time/patience to grind for the necessary gear?

That's the problem. Getting gear and leveling up isn't 'hard'. If that's where most of the difficulty comes from, that would be sad.

FYI gear is absolutely a requirement. You need to progress beyond level 20, and light is the only way.

I took the first message to be complaining about only getting to do the raid once per week and this comment was that he didn't care about raids, but upon re-reading I guess he's saying he's more concerned about the loot?

I'm anticipating that the story, crucible, strikes, and raids will themselves be worth my time. The question I had was whether getting ready for the raid would be worth my time, or if doing so would be a boring stupid grind.

What you said at the end made me think of a new slogan, maybe for the DBO clan.

"The Darkness is coming. Light is the only way."

Awwwwww yeah. Badass.

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I'm fine with the rewards only being attainable once a week. I bet it's a balancing act to keep people who have more time from getting a ridiculous edge over everyone else.

If somehow you read that you couldn't play the Raid more than once a week... you need to work on reading comprehension, my friend. Also, I think the pick-up and put-down nature is why they didn't include matchmaking; the latter decision sounds much more reasonable now.

The Darkenss?

I'm fine with the rewards only being attainable once a week. I bet it's a balancing act to keep people who have more time from getting a ridiculous edge over everyone else.

Then why not limit you to 10 crucible matches a week? After all, how fair would it be for someone who has more time to invest to get better and know the maps more than everyone else?

That's not a good reason.

Then why not limit you to 10 crucible matches a week? After all, how fair would it be for someone who has more time to invest to get better and know the maps more than everyone else?

That's not a good reason.

Actually, they limit the amount of Crucible marks you can earn in a week to ten times that, so you're just being hyperbolic. And again, this is not preventing you from playing the raid. That's another strike against your analogy.

It's not about keeping the players from getting too far ahead, it's to keep their characters from doing so. Dislike it all you want, you don't seem to have good arguments for it being a bad system. Probably because it isn't bad, just not your cup of tea, which is fine, but you are acting like your opinion of it is objectively correct.

I'm fine with the rewards only being attainable once a week. I bet it's a balancing act to keep people who have more time from getting a ridiculous edge over everyone else.

Then why not limit you to 10 crucible matches a week? After all, how fair would it be for someone who has more time to invest to get better and know the maps more than everyone else?

That's not a good reason.

Those aren't the same things. You can go back into the Raid as many times as you like, you just won't be rewarded for each encounter already completed that week on each Guardian. There is the limit of Crucible marks too, which is roughly the same as it leads toward the fancier end of gear from that activity.

Then why not limit you to 10 crucible matches a week? After all, how fair would it be for someone who has more time to invest to get better and know the maps more than everyone else?

That's not a good reason.

Actually, they limit the amount of Crucible marks you can earn in a week to ten times that, so you're just being hyperbolic. And again, this is not preventing you from playing the raid. That's another strike against your analogy.

I see what you are saying, however the late game is supposed to be all about the loot and rewards, and the loot has a huge impact on your ability to play high level content since it's the only way to boost your level. So in a sense, limiting my rate of gear acquisition very much affects my ability to play content such as nightfall strikes or the Hard mode raid.

That's a fair point. Probably the intention is to get you to play other activities instead of repeatedly Raiding, while still leaving the Raid open for people who find it a lot of fun, or have a few different groups willing to play it.

That's a fair point. Probably the intention is to get you to play other activities instead of repeatedly Raiding, while still leaving the Raid open for people who find it a lot of fun, or have a few different groups willing to play it.

You are probably right about that, but I'd rather I get to choose what activities to play. Do you really think people would complete bounties or explore missions if there were no reward? What about playing levels over again with slightly different modifiers?

I'd rather be able to move onto and play something NEW when I've mastered the old. As far as I am concerned, lockout type mechanics are on the same level as farmville.

That's a fair point. Probably the intention is to get you to play other activities instead of repeatedly Raiding, while still leaving the Raid open for people who find it a lot of fun, or have a few different groups willing to play it.

You are probably right about that, but I'd rather I get to choose what activities to play. Do you really think people would complete bounties or explore missions if there were no reward? What about playing levels over again with slightly different modifiers?

Um, yes? There's this little game you may have heard of called Halo...

I think you just proved his point even more.

So the question may come down to whether or not raids are actually fun, I take it. If the raid is so hard or obnoxious or grindy, and if you can only get that loot the one time in a week, it begs the question for whether or not people will even want to continue playing it after they get their loot, or if they even care enough to try and get the additional loot week after week after week if it's just highly ridiculous.

Bungie's already made it clear that it isn't meant for everyone. Does this dissuade grinders, potentially? I wonder who their target user is with this thing. Someone who just wants some super challenge? Or will it be so grindy and so ridiculous that it'll really just serve to alienate? Someone who only wants the lootiest of the loots? Will it be worth their time, especially if constantly turned off after one successful completion? Obviously I guess there are no real answers until we see how it goes, but I'd love to know the stats of how many people continue to raid six months after launch. Or how many repeat raiders, etc.

I think you just proved his point even more.

Two points:

1. Cody seems to think this lockout is going to affect his ability to proceed further in the game. I think he's either wrong, or doesn't yet have enough information to be right. As I said elsewhere, I highly doubt that normal engram drops and experience earning will stop when you replay a section of a raid. If the rewards for beating sections of the raid are necessary to go forward... well you'd have them on your second play through, right? They can't lock you out from earning something again if you haven't earned it once.

Yes, sure, maybe he won't have good enough armor and guns to move forward, but it seems highly unlikely that will have anything to do with the raid reward lockout. It'll just be his normal complaints against Investment Systems...

2. My point about Halo was that people have replayed levels of Halo: Combat Evolved for some 13 years now with no in game rewards or level modifiers other than difficulty. It leaves me thinking "???" when it is suddenly a problem that the bonuses at the end of (sections of?) Destiny's Raids are locked out for a time. If Destiny's gameplay is fun, if the missions are challenging, then what do the rewards matter?

Cody says: "Destiny is about the loot! The endgame is about getting great rewards!" but I don't see it that way. I think you can even find a few Bungie quotes that say something similar but it's not why I am going to play Destiny. Throughout the history of Halo people have often had things I haven't. High level armor pieces in Halo 3, Reach and Halo 4. Flaming helmets, Recon armor, super high level... uh levels (Redeemer, Inheritor... those labels). I never went after any of that stuff but all the games were still fun and still worth playing.

First and foremost I'm going to play Destiny because the core gameplay during the beta was fun. Secondly, I'm going to play because so far I've really enjoyed the universe Bungie has been setting up and I've liked pulling the information together and presenting it to the community. Anything beyond that like special emblems or guns or whatever is a bonus to me that I'll happen to get while playing a fun game. Certainly its nothing to complain about.

2. My point about Halo was that people have replayed levels of Halo: Combat Evolved for some 13 years now with no in game rewards or level modifiers other than difficulty. It leaves me thinking "???" when it is suddenly a problem that the bonuses at the end of (sections of?) Destiny's Raids are locked out for a time. If Destiny's gameplay is fun, if the missions are challenging, then what do the rewards matter?

Because. Rewards. Are. Required. To. Play. High. Level. Content.

You power up your character through rewards.

2. My point about Halo was that people have replayed levels of Halo: Combat Evolved for some 13 years now with no in game rewards or level modifiers other than difficulty. It leaves me thinking "???" when it is suddenly a problem that the bonuses at the end of (sections of?) Destiny's Raids are locked out for a time. If Destiny's gameplay is fun, if the missions are challenging, then what do the rewards matter?

Because. Rewards. Are. Required. To. Play. High. Level. Content.

You power up your character through rewards.

That doesn't mean that these particular rewards are required.

2. My point about Halo was that people have replayed levels of Halo: Combat Evolved for some 13 years now with no in game rewards or level modifiers other than difficulty. It leaves me thinking "???" when it is suddenly a problem that the bonuses at the end of (sections of?) Destiny's Raids are locked out for a time. If Destiny's gameplay is fun, if the missions are challenging, then what do the rewards matter?

Because. Rewards. Are. Required. To. Play. High. Level. Content.

You power up your character through rewards.

That doesn't mean that these particular rewards are required.

These also aren't the only rewards that are locked out. Limited crucible marks, nightfall rewards, etc.

2. My point about Halo was that people have replayed levels of Halo: Combat Evolved for some 13 years now with no in game rewards or level modifiers other than difficulty. It leaves me thinking "???" when it is suddenly a problem that the bonuses at the end of (sections of?) Destiny's Raids are locked out for a time. If Destiny's gameplay is fun, if the missions are challenging, then what do the rewards matter?

Because. Rewards. Are. Required. To. Play. High. Level. Content.

You power up your character through rewards.

Getting obnoxious is certainly uncalled for. Especially when I attempted to address your exact concern in the unquoted Point 1. Let me repeat myself and expand a bit:

• If the raid rewards include something like a special key that is required to move forward then you should have that key on your second play through. If Bungie forces you to wait a week to gain such a special item then something would indeed be wrong.
  
  
• While you won't earn specific Raid only armor pieces or weapons on the second time through it seems highly likely that you will continue to earn glimmer, continue to earn experience towards unlocking new parts of your character's chosen focus, and continue to earn new level 20+ armor and gear by simply killing enemies, just like in the beta. We have no information stating that these normal game systems will be disabled even during the raid reward lockout.
  
  
• If that's the case, then the raid reward lockout will have minimal effect on your ability to play high level content.

I think these raid rewards will be like the Iron Banner rewards we've already seen. Custom guns and armor with custom themes and colors that are not required to continue the raid or any other high level content. I think they will be for bragging rights but will be equaled by other high level gear that will not be the subject of a raid reward lockout.

These also aren't the only rewards that are locked out. Limited crucible marks, nightfall rewards, etc.

Except that all it means is that if you need to get a lot of gear in a short time, play diverse modes. Because there are only so many rewards in Raids, I think repeating it often for the high-tier rewards would just be a way of glimmer farming? I'd give Bungie enough credit to have balanced it well, man.

I dunno, man. It certainly sounds like the Exotics are restricted as end-mission rewards, as opposed to engram drops. Maybe that's what Cody is specifically complaining about.

However, to counter his argument, it doesn't sound like Exotics are particularly REQUIRED for end-game play, since, well, they are the rewards from the end-game, and as such obviously can't be expected to be requirements. You know, if you still haven't gotten it, you wouldn't be able to get it. Makes no sense.

I dunno, man. It certainly sounds like the Exotics are restricted as end-mission rewards, as opposed to engram drops. Maybe that's what Cody is specifically complaining about.

However, to counter his argument, it doesn't sound like Exotics are particularly REQUIRED for end-game play, since, well, they are the rewards from the end-game, and as such obviously can't be expected to be requirements. You know, if you still haven't gotten it, you wouldn't be able to get it. Makes no sense.

I can't imagine that a high level Destiny player is going to be stalled for a week because he already got an exotic weapon but can't get a second one.

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Worse than that, say you are super lucky and have 5 friends who all want to play raids, have a copy of destiny, and all have it on the same console you do. Now say one or two of them play the raid that week with some other people and get locked out.

Now you are shit out of luck. Looks like you have to wait a week to play that game mode and hope that you friends will only stick to your group next week.

Worse than that, say you are super lucky and have 5 friends who all want to play raids, have a copy of destiny, and all have it on the same console you do. Now say one or two of them play the raid that week with some other people and get locked out.

Now you are shit out of luck. Looks like you have to wait a week to play that game mode and hope that you friends will only stick to your group next week.

No, no. It is a reward lockout, not a gameplay lockout. In the Q&A on last week's Weekly Update it says:

Q: How does looting work in Destiny Raids?

Luke: The loot you get is private to you - just like the rest of the game.

Obtaining loot from a given encounter means that character is not eligible to receive loot from the same encounter again in a given calendar week. This is often referred to as a "Lockout."

Same thing with the Crucible was seen in the beta. After four days of heavy play I managed to fill the progress circle and the game told me I wouldn't earn more Crucible Marks... it didn't stop me from playing. :)

Same thing with the Crucible was seen in the beta. After four days of heavy play I managed to fill the progress circle and the game told me I wouldn't earn more Crucible Marks... it didn't stop me from playing. :)

When you reach level 20, and your entire progression and thus ability to play the higher level content relies on such rewards, it kind of will stop you from playing :-p

Same thing with the Crucible was seen in the beta. After four days of heavy play I managed to fill the progress circle and the game told me I wouldn't earn more Crucible Marks... it didn't stop me from playing. :)

When you reach level 20, and your entire progression and thus ability to play the higher level content relies on such rewards, it kind of will stop you from playing :-p

Where has it ever been said that your entire progression after level 20 relies on rewards?

I'm here trying to helpfully correct people who misinterpreted your post and you're making up extra doom and gloom out of thin air! Worse, I've brought this up twice now in this thread and you keep saying these things with no source or link or quote.

Maybe I've missed something, and I'll be happy to acknowledge that I'm wrong, but I can't imagine that we'll hit level 20 and we will never get better gear out of an engram drop and there will never be better gear for sell at the Tower. The way you tell it, all the investment systems that I enjoyed in the beta will switch off once I hit level 20. That just feels wrong to me.

Same thing with the Crucible was seen in the beta. After four days of heavy play I managed to fill the progress circle and the game told me I wouldn't earn more Crucible Marks... it didn't stop me from playing. :)

When you reach level 20, and your entire progression and thus ability to play the higher level content relies on such rewards, it kind of will stop you from playing :-p

Where has it ever been said that your entire progression after level 20 relies on rewards?

Level 20 is the soft cap. Light raises your level with a cap at 30. Light is only on gear. You cannot gain levels past 20 without getting gear.

Same thing with the Crucible was seen in the beta. After four days of heavy play I managed to fill the progress circle and the game told me I wouldn't earn more Crucible Marks... it didn't stop me from playing. :)

When you reach level 20, and your entire progression and thus ability to play the higher level content relies on such rewards, it kind of will stop you from playing :-p

Where has it ever been said that your entire progression after level 20 relies on rewards?

Level 20 is the soft cap. Light raises your level with a cap at 30. Light is only on gear. You cannot gain levels past 20 without getting gear.

That doesn't stop you from playing though (I know you said it "kind of" stops you from playing, but that can be taken different ways). It's also nice how you still don't give a source-- I know you're correct, I saw it officially, but to continually not give a source when asked hurts your argument and makes people inclined to think it's badly researched, or worse.

Same thing with the Crucible was seen in the beta. After four days of heavy play I managed to fill the progress circle and the game told me I wouldn't earn more Crucible Marks... it didn't stop me from playing. :)

When you reach level 20, and your entire progression and thus ability to play the higher level content relies on such rewards, it kind of will stop you from playing :-p

Where has it ever been said that your entire progression after level 20 relies on rewards?

Level 20 is the soft cap. Light raises your level with a cap at 30. Light is only on gear. You cannot gain levels past 20 without getting gear.

Yes, I agree. Which is why I addressed and addressed and addressed and addressed, that issue in this thread. Four times already I've specifically brought up the idea that you'll still earn high level gear though normal gameplay methods. Here, I'll quote the relevant sections:

Even then, I'd expect Destiny's normal loot systems to keep working. You'd still be gaining experience toward the next unlocks, you'd still be picking up random (and potentially very high level!) weapon and armor engrams...

Cody seems to think this lockout is going to affect his ability to proceed further in the game. I think he's either wrong, or doesn't yet have enough information to be right. As I said elsewhere, I highly doubt that normal engram drops and experience earning will stop when you replay a section of a raid.

While you won't earn specific Raid only armor pieces or weapons on the second time through it seems highly likely that you will continue to earn glimmer, continue to earn experience towards unlocking new parts of your character's chosen focus, and continue to earn new level 20+ armor and gear by simply killing enemies, just like in the beta. We have no information stating that these normal game systems will be disabled even during the raid reward lockout.

I think these raid rewards will be like the Iron Banner rewards we've already seen. Custom guns and armor with custom themes and colors that are not required to continue the raid or any other high level content. I think they will be for bragging rights but will be equaled by other high level gear that will not be the subject of a raid reward lockout.

Maybe I've missed something, and I'll be happy to acknowledge that I'm wrong, but I can't imagine that we'll hit level 20 and we will never get better gear out of an engram drop and there will never be better gear for sell at the Tower. The way you tell it, all the investment systems that I enjoyed in the beta will switch off once I hit level 20. That just feels wrong to me.

My claim here is that rewards, such as those given out for beating sections of raids, are a way to progress past level 20 but not the only way. In essence, I think the game will work the say way below level 20 and above level 20 except for the experience cap. You clearly think that I'm wrong since you just told someone that the rewards lockout would stop them from playing higher level content.

Prove it.

Prove that your entire progression after level 20 relies on rewards vs picking up gear via engrams or buying gear at a store. If you can't do that you shouldn't be telling people that their ability to play the higher level content relies on such rewards.

If you can't prove it then stop saying it.

Prove that your entire progression after level 20 relies on rewards vs picking up gear via engrams or buying gear at a store. If you can't do that you shouldn't be telling people that their ability to play the higher level content relies on such rewards.

If you can't prove it then stop saying it.

Buying legendary gear = using currencies like marks or strange coins, etc. These are activity rewards.
I guess you could get a legendary engram drop, but good luck relying solely on that.
Bungie has said that the daily and weekly activities have rewards you will want.

I could be completely wrong. Let's talk a week or so after Destiny has come out, since you are probably right in that there's not really much more left to say until we know something.

They are activity rewards. There are also several different activities you can do. Not being able to do the Raid multiple times in a week is not going to hobble a Guardian if they can get gear from other things. I mean, unless somehow they can handle the Raid but not Strikes, or something?

You'll kill stuff to get Light on your brand-new Exotic. And what's a better place to find things to kill in huge numbers very fast than a Raid? ;)

You'll kill stuff to get Light on your brand-new Exotic. And what's a better place to find things to kill in huge numbers very fast than infinitely respawning enemies in explore? ;)

FTFY

You'll kill stuff to get Light on your brand-new Exotic. And what's a better place to find things to kill in huge numbers very fast than infinitely respawning enemies in patrol? ;)

FTFY

FTFY

We still got a week. The name will probably change 2 or 3 times more.

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Not hard nor fast enough. (inb4 TWSS)

Did anyone check if stronger enemies had higher XP gains? I'm sure higher levels didn't factor in, but how about classes?

Not hard nor fast enough. (inb4 TWSS)

No one was going to make that joke, Zack. No one.

No, no. It is a reward lockout, not a gameplay lockout.

Yeah, I have read most of this thread and agree that you are entirely right. But putting a lock on rewards in a game type that takes multiple hours to complete a single run through is fundamentally different than simply removing marks in the crucible or removing a reward at the end of a level.

If I were in a situation where I got nothing at the end of a potential raid, I might just play the crucible with those friends instead. Or play campaign. Or do any of the number of short-term-reward activities that the game offers.

Maybe it is just me, but if those huge rewards are turned off, I can't see myself spending the time on the Raid instead of doing something that I actually get rewarded for. And I have a feeling that my "5 friends" would do the same.

For me it's less about progression and more about wanting to actually play with 5 other people on a multi-hour activity that will not get me any reward.

Unless Raids give the same level of rewards as typical Crucible/Campaign play (in addition to their completion reward) I would much rather play the former and leave my "5 friends" without the ability to even try the Raid.

Maybe it is just me, but if those huge rewards are turned off, I can't see myself spending the time on the Raid instead of doing something that I actually get rewarded for. And I have a feeling that my "5 friends" would do the same.

Yeah, it's a weird issue. In a game without progression systems, if the raid is awesome, I imagine I'd play the raid a lot. In a game with progression systems, I imagine I'd feel a compulsion to go do something else, even if the gameplay experience was inferior.

I wound up enjoying Reach a lot more once I got myself to ignore the credit system. That'll be harder in a game where the progression actually has a gameplay impact.

This is possibly my single biggest worry approaching Destiny.

I wound up enjoying Reach a lot more once I got myself to ignore the credit system. That'll be harder in a game where the progression actually has a gameplay impact.

This is possibly my single biggest worry approaching Destiny.

You and me both pal. It's make or break.

Unless Raids give the same level of rewards as typical Crucible/Campaign play (in addition to their completion reward)

I don't see how anyone could think it wouldn't. I mean, the games of Crucible and the missions have completion rewards, they're seemingly completely separate from what is earned during play. So you'll still get loot during it, even with a lockout.

Yeah, I have read most of this thread and agree that you are entirely right. But putting a lock on rewards in a game type that takes multiple hours to complete a single run through is fundamentally different than simply removing marks in the crucible or removing a reward at the end of a level.

...No it isn't? It's only removing the completion rewards, which are exactly what marks and end level rewards are. That is fundamentally the exact same thing.

Why is there such a huge thread about a Halo map on DBO?

(Has this joke been made yet? Am I LTTP on this?)

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Why is there such a huge thread about a Halo map on DBO?

(Has this joke been made yet? Am I LTTP on this?)

Who here misses vehicle boarding in Destiny?

Me. I already suggested it in my Beta write-up, and someone came up with a pretty good reason for why it's probably not in the game. Oh well I guess. :(

Who here misses vehicle boarding in Destiny?

Not me! I've managed to hold out the last decade without being convinced that vehicle boarding is a strictly good thing, although I respect that Halo's 2 onward are built with it in mind.

A massive part of the problem here is the reduction in your appraisal of the game that you haven't yet played down to essentially "this will be a waste of my time if I'm not able to earn all of the things, all of the time", which really seems contradictory to your stance that all investment is contrived and makes for bad games.

One would think you wouldn't want a static experience. But I guess some of us just have to burn all the way through to the endgame content off the break.

A significant point that I think is being overlooked here is that the effort kind of infuses the reward with worth beyond the simple stat boosts. What you put into earning it is what makes it valuable. If you're just going to sprint through the game with your eye on the prize, I find it hard to believe you're going to get as much out of performing exactly the same actions as someone who doesn't share your mentality.

Chew your steak. Savor each bite. Don't be the dog that gorges and then whines for more.

~m

So you'll still get loot during it, even with a lockout.

Unless I'm remembering the Beta completely wrong, the random stuff you earned during gameplay (not what you got at the end of the mission) was no where near as useful. The way I saw it was that completion/success was the important part, not participation. Which I think is a very good mechanic for a game like this.

If that is the case, then I would much rather get worthwhile rewards from completing other activities than play more Raids. And to Cody's point, when you reach end-game play, it is those completion rewards that will allow you to progress.

However if the reward for participation (read: even in failure) is comparable to beating a Raid . . . my problem evaporates. But I think a system like that is going to be very flawed and make Raids nearly useless except for a different style of gameplay.

You talk like... you know... playing the game is a chore. If that's really the case is suggest you find a game you actually like to play.

Yeah, I have read most of this thread and agree that you are entirely right. But putting a lock on rewards in a game type that takes multiple hours to complete a single run through is fundamentally different than simply removing marks in the crucible or removing a reward at the end of a level.

...No it isn't? It's only removing the completion rewards, which are exactly what marks and end level rewards are. That is fundamentally the exact same thing.

Hhm, maybe I didn't make my point very clear. There is mountains of difference in removing the completion reward from a long-term task and removing the completion reward from a short-term task. I see two main ways that it is different.

First, in short-term tasks the participation rewards (XP, etc.) are somewhat comparable to completion rewards. Therefore if you remove the completion reward from that, you can get stuff almost as good. However in long-term my understanding is that the completion rewards are significantly better than participation rewards. Thus removing completion rewards from long-term tasks drastically reduces its allure, while the same only slightly hurts short-term tasks.

Second, I have gotten the impression that Raids will take a certain degree of grinding/wandering. Luke Smith has said that there will be very few instructions in Raids, eg. you have to figure out how to open a door without any directions. To me this means that an average 15 minutes in Raids may be significantly more boring than 15 minutes in the Crucible. For me, at least, the whole point of grinding/wandering is moot if I am not rewarded in a reasonable way. Getting XP can be done in the Crucible without having to grind/wander. Removing the reward from grinding makes me not want to grind, but the same cannot be said about 15 minutes of fun.

A massive part of the problem here is the reduction in your appraisal of the game that you haven't yet played down to essentially "this will be a waste of my time if I'm not able to earn all of the things, all of the time", which really seems contradictory to your stance that all investment is contrived and makes for bad games.

One would think you wouldn't want a static experience. But I guess some of us just have to burn all the way through to the endgame content off the break.

A significant point that I think is being overlooked here is that the effort kind of infuses the reward with worth beyond the simple stat boosts. What you put into earning it is what makes it valuable. If you're just going to sprint through the game with your eye on the prize, I find it hard to believe you're going to get as much out of performing exactly the same actions as someone who doesn't share your mentality.

Chew your steak. Savor each bite. Don't be the dog that gorges and then whines for more.

~m

Right. I don't get this "I must have a reward now or the game is a failure" mode of thinking. Sooner rather than later the game is going to run out of new content for you to play so the game itself should be fun. If all you're doing is grinding to the next reward then, in my opinion, you're doing it wrong.

You talk like... you know... playing the game is a chore. If that's really the case is suggest you find a game you actually like to play.

You usually get rewarded (pay, food, a bed) for chores. I guess replaying Raids is even worse than chores....

I kid. The game is fun but, to me, I won't replay Raids because they aren't going to be worth my time. Grinding is rarely fun for me.

Though honestly, I shouldn't even be talking. I don't have 5 friends all getting Destiny on the same console so I doubt I will ever play a Raid...

Unless I'm remembering the Beta completely wrong, the random stuff you earned during gameplay (not what you got at the end of the mission) was no where near as useful. The way I saw it was that completion/success was the important part, not participation. Which I think is a very good mechanic for a game like this.

I got my better gear, for the most part, through random green engrams. (I love you, Sahara AR-3.)

However if the reward for participation (read: even in failure) is comparable to beating a Raid . . . my problem evaporates. But I think a system like that is going to be very flawed and make Raids nearly useless except for a different style of gameplay.

Shouldn't they just be a different game mode that you play because it's fun? And the rewards for participation won't equal the ones for success, but that doesn't mean they'll be negligible.

Well, if you already beat the Raid and are thus locked out of the completion rewards, you won't need to try and figure out how to do it again. Your other points stand, though I would like to mention that the completion rewards are for Encounters within Raids, not just at the very end.

I found hijacking/boarding in Halo useful and also inexplicably amusing. Oh well, I'll live.

I got my better gear, for the most part, through random green engrams. (I love you, Sahara AR-3.)

It's my understanding that this isn't the case for higher levels. I could be wrong though, but I think it is common in games.

Shouldn't they just be a different game mode that you play because it's fun? And the rewards for participation won't equal the ones for success, but that doesn't mean they'll be negligible.

Yeah, I just personally don't want to do all the work of getting 5 friends together on the same type of console to get all grindy together in a Raid where I don't get useful things when I could have similar fun in the Crucible or Campaign. I think that I won't be alone in this.

Honestly though, my opinions are probably tainted because I doubt I will be playing Raids. Just offering my two cents at this point.

...Don't be the dog that gorges and then whines for more.

~m

+1!

I kid. The game is fun but, to me, I won't replay Raids because they aren't going to be worth my time. Grinding is rarely fun for me.

I replayed the same strike in the beta at least four or five times -- it didn't feel like grinding to me because I was playing it with different groups of friends/DBO acquaintances each time. Same goes for running around the same ol' areas of Old Russia in Explore mode on numerous different occasions with different groups. I can't imagine that the raid(s) -- which I expect to be both extremely challenging and set in areas that feel more unique and majestic compared to the other standard areas of the game -- will feel any more like grinding as I work my way through them again and again.

Though honestly, I shouldn't even be talking. I don't have 5 friends all getting Destiny on the same console so I doubt I will ever play a Raid...

Oh but you do! If you are here on DBO, you have at least 5 friends on any given console!

- No text -

A massive part of the problem here is the reduction in your appraisal of the game that you haven't yet played

I've been playing it since June dude.

A significant point that I think is being overlooked here is that the effort kind of infuses the reward with worth beyond the simple stat boosts. What you put into earning it is what makes it valuable. If you're just going to sprint through the game with your eye on the prize, I find it hard to believe you're going to get as much out of performing exactly the same actions as someone who doesn't share your mentality.

First of all you know my stance on rewards. Actually playing the game should be the reward, not a couple of flipped bits on a server.

Troubling for you though should be that a lot of the achievements won't actually be hard, but will have the illusion of being hard. A bounty that has you get 50 precision kills for example is fake hard. Getting a precision kill is easy. You are really just doing 50 easy things, which seems hard because it takes some time. That's an actual bounty that I completed in the Beta. I'm sure the raid and strikes will have a skill component, but gearing up for those is what's going to be fake hard, with collecting / grinding exotic currency, marks, glimmer, light, etc to gear yourself up for them.

A massive part of the problem here is the reduction in your appraisal of the game that you haven't yet played

I've been playing it since June dude.

I think he was referring to the retail version of the game that has not yet been released Cody.

Right. I don't get this "I must have a reward now or the game is a failure" mode of thinking. Sooner rather than later the game is going to run out of new content for you to play so the game itself should be fun. If all you're doing is grinding to the next reward then, in my opinion, you're doing it wrong.

I agree 100%, but that's not how Bungie has pitched the game. They have pitched level 20+ play and the daily and weekly activities as all about the reward.

You talk like... you know... playing the game is a chore.

It was sometimes.

I usually picked the bounties that I was going to do anyway. My primary weapon was a scout rifle so 50 precision kills was going to happen no matter what. The bounties I liked best were the "do x without dying" ones. Those were fun because now I pushed myself to play the game a bit better. Even then though I didn't dwell on the bounties. I usually forgot which ones I had until I checked them back at the tower.

I know you do t like the investment system to get in your way, but it's fine to get minor rewards for what you're doing anyway isn't it?

I got my better gear, for the most part, through random green engrams. (I love you, Sahara AR-3.)

It's my understanding that this isn't the case for higher levels. I could be wrong though, but I think it is common in games.

Certainly we'll have to see, but my hope is the game drops random engrams near your level, whatever that level happens to be. Since we were only level 8 we'd only get drops up to level 10 or so. At level 18 I hope to get level 18, 19, and 20 gear. And not just standard stuff but upper level stuff. The big rewards are hopefully about having something unique that you can show off because it doesn't drop at random and not so much about boosting stats.

I replayed the same strike in the beta at least four or five times -- it didn't feel like grinding to me because I was playing it with different groups of friends/DBO acquaintances each time.

I totally agree for Strikes and Campaign. If Raids are as grindy/grueling as they sound though, I doubt I will agree with Raids. When I play other similar games, I love grindy/grueling, but only while it has a positive output on my game/character.

I agree 100%, but that's not how Bungie has pitched the game. They have pitched level 20+ play and the daily and weekly activities as all about the reward.

Copout.

Don't lay this on them. *You're* the speedrunner here, you've been making arguments in the same direction for quite a while.

You of all people pretending to be beholden to the way they've marketed the game is a joke. They've clearly designed with long-term play in mind. Of course they're going to plan out different experiences at different levels.

You've planned on sinking plenty of time into Destiny for a while. Not like a few soundbites from gameplay demonstrations is going to change that for you.

~m

A massive part of the problem here is the reduction in your appraisal of the game that you haven't yet played

I've been playing it since June dude.

I think he was referring to the retail version of the game that has not yet been released Cody.

Cody well knows what I meant. And he knows that claiming to have played the game by experiencing the Alpha and Beta is not going to stand up in debate. The best one can claim at this juncture is that they understand the core gameplay experience.

And even after having played the beta, he knows that in six months Destiny will again not be the same as launch. Lars said in an interview a good while ago that we should expect things to change over the life of the game. It's been said many times since then, as well.

~m

I've been playing it since June dude.

False.

First of all you know my stance on rewards. Actually playing the game should be the reward, not a couple of flipped bits on a server.

And yet you're here today making arguments about how being locked out of running Raids multiple times in the same week with the same character is somehow akin to Prometheus being bound to the rock, or some shit.

You're really coming off as talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Troubling for you though should be that a lot of the achievements won't actually be hard, but will have the illusion of being hard. A bounty that has you get 50 precision kills for example is fake hard. Getting a precision kill is easy. You are really just doing 50 easy things, which seems hard because it takes some time. That's an actual bounty that I completed in the Beta. I'm sure the raid and strikes will have a skill component, but gearing up for those is what's going to be fake hard, with collecting / grinding exotic currency, marks, glimmer, light, etc to gear yourself up for them.

Not troubling at all. Those are longevity goals. I'll get 200 precision kills eventually, no rush. I don't need to get 200 precision kills in a row or anything.

Your hyper-reductionism is mind-boggling sometimes, man. It's almost as if you're setting out to deliberately drain the fun out of your experience. Before release, even.

~m

And even after having played the beta, he knows that in six months Destiny will again not be the same as launch. Lars said in an interview a >good while ago that we should expect things to change over the life of the game. It's been said many times since then, as well.

~m

Right.

One interesting thing that will happen, perhaps as soon as December with The Dark Below, is that there will be more Raids that can be reasonably completed in a week. Ok, so maybe you and your friends have the time to completely lockout The Vault of Glass. What about The Vault of Glass, The Dark Below? In one week? With all three of your characters? If rewards are so important you'll be using more than one character, right?

Basically, this problem should eventually solve itself.

I agree 100%, but that's not how Bungie has pitched the game. They have pitched level 20+ play and the daily and weekly activities as all about the reward.

Copout.

Don't lay this on them. *You're* the speedrunner here,

Speedrunning sucks. FYI.

And even after having played the beta, he knows that in six months Destiny will again not be the same as launch. Lars said in an interview a good while ago that we should expect things to change over the life of the game. It's been said many times since then, as well.

~m

I care about what the game is on launch. You get one chance to make an impression.

As I mentioned before, adding content as you go doesn't have the same impact as if it's all there up front. There's less sense of wonder. You can't walk up to a girl in a bar, do your spiel, get rejected, then come back later with "Oh! I forgot to tell you…". The impression is already made.

And yet you're here today making arguments about how being locked out of running Raids multiple times in the same week with the same character is somehow akin to Prometheus being bound to the rock, or some shit.

You're really coming off as talking out of both sides of your mouth.

How hard is this to understand my objection?

1. I want to play the cool content
2. To play the cool content you need rewards
3. Rewards for many activities are on lockout
4. Playing cool game content will ultimately be on lockout
5. OTHER REWARDS ARE ON LOCKOUT NOT JUST THE RAIDS - Nightfall stuff, crucible marks, etc

Because rewards are so vital to your being able to play the cool stuff, and because you are forced to earn them slowly, the game is actively fighting you from being able to do cool things. Like every MMO ever.

I care about what the game is on launch. You get one chance to make an impression.

As I mentioned before, adding content as you go doesn't have the same impact as if it's all there up front. There's less sense of wonder. You can't walk up to a girl in a bar, do your spiel, get rejected, then come back later with "Oh! I forgot to tell you…". The impression is already made.

The game will evolve over time (negatively or positively, maybe even both ways at the same time), same as your perception of what about you might attract the girl. Relying solely on first impressions, while natural, is non-optimal.

You can't walk up to a girl in a bar, do your spiel, get rejected, then come back later with "Oh! I forgot to tell you…". The impression is already made.

You get many girls by going up to them and telling your entire life story in one sitting? That doesn't tend to work well from my experience, but hey maybe I'm doing it wrong...

-- Steve thinks there's a world of difference between "one shot" games and "slow burn" games. Destiny would appear (hopefully) to be the latter.

Question: In all your negivity and worst case scenario-ing did you consider this post from Luke Smith? (I hear he has something to do with Raids) Key points:

I fully expect groups to beat Normal mode in the first week its available.

Once your group learns the encounters, you will be able to get through the Raid significantly faster than 3 hours.

How about this section of the last Weekly Update:

In two days of playing - where they broke for meals and had some ramp up time with the game on day 1, here's what happened:

Two groups made it to the final encounter. Neither group defeated it.

One group made it to the final encounter, but had to be skipped through an earlier encounter.

One group washed out and elected to go back to playing Strikes, Missions and Patrols.

The designer of the raid expects groups to beat it within a week of it being available and players new to Destiny were nearly able to beat it in under two days... so what are you worried about? In other places he has talked about using strikes to level up to take on the raid. Strikes aren't subject to lockout as far as I know.

If the reward lockout is reset weekly, and the raid will be able to be beaten in under a week... exactly which cool content will ultimately be locked out? From what I can tell, from sourced quotes, your list will look a lot more like this:

1. I want to play the cool content
2. I will be able to play the cool content

Disagree? Then put up or shut up.

You have some understandable complaints in this thread (and some I have trouble understanding), but by my understanding the raids are the end-game content, there's other end-game content but there's nothing that's strictly after them or higher than them. If that's the case, being locked out from rewards will only mean you have to wait up to a week to get your rewards from beating them on hard, because once you've beaten them on normal and hard anything else is optional grinding. Actually, in fact, if there's nothing beyond the hard versions of raids you don't even need the rewards from them because there's no higher goal to use them on. The "Nightfall" public events might change for you as you level up or they might change for everyone or higher-level content might appear, but failing that, I don't think you have anything to complain about relating to raids except having to wait maybe a week one time.

I agree 100%, but that's not how Bungie has pitched the game. They have pitched level 20+ play and the daily and weekly activities as all about the reward.

Copout.

Don't lay this on them. *You're* the speedrunner here,

Speedrunning sucks. FYI.

And? I see you're back to cherry-picking something to respond to, instead of addressing the point being made.

See, I could have told you that it would suck without even having to sprint my way through any part of the game a thousand times. But you set yourself a challenge and met it. Good for you, honestly. But that's aside from the point being made here about your demand for a reward and how it contradicts your dirge about investment. It's also not addressing your lame Bungie-marketed-it-that-way defense.

~m

But that's aside from the point being made here about your demand for a reward and how it contradicts your dirge about investment.

I'm not sure how it really contradicts.

1. I do not like investment systems, because they stand between you and the fun parts of the game.
2. You need rewards to power your character up past level 20.
3. Many cool things require you to be greater than level 20.
4. Rewards are therefore required to do many cool things.
5. Many rewards are locked out, timed, rare, or are acquired after grinding. This includes Raid rewards, nightfall rewards, exotic currency and marks, etc.
6. Therefore doing cool things will require more of a hassle in the long run than if there was no investment system.

You can still have the thrill of discovery, uniqueness of weapons and gear, character progression, and everything else Destiny offers without having an investment system. Therefore, the investment system and reward lockouts together only harm the game ultimately. In fact, doing it without an investment system would ENHANCE these attributes of the game.

But that's aside from the point being made here about your demand for a reward and how it contradicts your dirge about investment.

I'm not sure how it really contradicts.

1. I do not like investment systems, because they stand between you and the fun parts of the game.
2. You need rewards to power your character up past level 20.
3. Many cool things require you to be greater than level 20.
4. Rewards are therefore required to do many cool things.
5. Many rewards are locked out, timed, rare, or are acquired after grinding. This includes Raid rewards, nightfall rewards, exotic currency and marks, etc.
6. Therefore doing cool things will require more of a hassle in the long run than if there was no investment system.

You can still have the thrill of discovery, uniqueness of weapons and gear, character progression, and everything else Destiny offers without having an investment system. Therefore, the investment system and reward lockouts together only harm the game ultimately. In fact, doing it without an investment system would ENHANCE these attributes of the game.

That's what you're getting at, right? one way or another it takes too long to get to what you want to do and/or what's actually fun? and having an artificial roadblock slows things down more?