On Crucible and lack of determinism (Destiny)

by yakaman, Sunday, October 26, 2014, 09:07 (3919 days ago)

TL;DR
I think Crucible's core game play is good, but networking issues have an inordinately negative effect on the overall experience.

Now, on to the rambling...

I have a relatively poor internet connection. I get dropped some, but not too much. My SP experiences are pretty smooth and very enjoyable (awesome, really), but Destiny's Crucible produces more WTF moments per minute than any other online MP I have ever played. Weird-ass shit constantly, like:

  • getting shot through walls (well discussed)
  • getting melee-ed through floors (see "shot through walls")
  • getting auto-rifled for a half-second before dying (well discussed)
  • ineffective attack/melee - bullets stop doing damage, or melee has no effect
  • fusion-rifling people in the chest for little/no damage
  • being fusion-rifled one-shotted across the map while partially blocked by a window
  • shotgun one-shotted from mid-range
  • being shot at 4-5 times by a shotgun at close range and not taking a lick of damage
  • being killed by a grenade when well outside of area of effect
  • killing like 3-4 guardians in close-quarters melee without taking damage

OK - I think most of the above are understood to be latency/lag effects, and conceptually I understand why they exist. I also understand that Bungie cannot be held responsible for my terrible internet connection. What I'm unsure of is why these effects are so dramatic in Destiny? Why do they dominate my Crucible experience so thoroughly? Is it because of dedicated servers? Is it an outcome of the specific architecture of Destiny? Is it a function of connection-speed gap, where perhaps some connections (i.e. fiber, cable) are getting much better/faster while others (i.e. DSL) stay roughly the same?

For me, the outcome of this latency/lag is a disconnection between cause and effect in Crucible. The cycle of play-die-learn is broken; I'm literally fighting the indeterminacy of the gameplay more than I am other guardians. In this match, for this opponent, are we in real-time (balanced)? Am I ahead in time? Am I behind?

I always wonder how my encounters play out for the other player(s). When I've got the drop on someone, but inexplicably land only about 1/4 shots - allowing my opponent to pivot, rush, and shotgun me in the chest (from, like, 20 feet away), what does my opponent think? Do they wonder why I let them get that close? Do they wonder if I ran out of ammo? Do I appear to be shooting into a corner? Do they think I'm butt-ass wasted? Are they convinced they're so awesome?

Note that sometimes I'm on the other side of things - benefitting from the weirdness. Killing guardians while clearly missing them, and surviving encounters I have no business surviving. In SP, I typically finish strikes in the Vanguard playlist with a significantly greater number of kills than both of my teammates. I used to take pride in this, but now can't help but wonder if I'm good at the game or simply have some connection advantage.

It is my opinion that my acute frustration with Crucible is simply a function of the determinism, which is a function of my connection. From this, I'm tempted to draw the conclusion that much of the community's greater frustration with Crucible comes from the same place - but of course, I do not know for sure.

The disconnection between skill/learning and outcome - perceived or real - radically diminishes the satisfaction that normally accompanies an MP experience. It creates randomness in a place where there shouldn't be any. If an ability or weapon or vehicle is overbalanced but consistent, a player can make adjustments. Unpredictable randomness cannot be adjusted for.

I see a lot of comments here where person A will say "Condition A is so annoying and seems wrong" and person B will respond "just execute Response A or B and counter it, it's pretty simple". I think person A would probably have converged on Response A, B, or even C if their experience with Condition A was repeatable. I believe this is why there are such (seemingly) dramatically differing opinions on Crucible - whether it is good or bad, balanced or not, difficult or easy.

I'd love to hear from anyone that has had a quantum change in connection for/during Destiny (or other MP games) and if it made a difference. Finally, at last, we come to my ulterior motive: if I'm going to try to convince my wife that we need a 2nd internet connection, and cable to boot, I'd like to know it's worth it. ;-)

Avatar

On Crucible and lack of determinism

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Sunday, October 26, 2014, 15:39 (3919 days ago) @ yakaman

I'm of the belief that everyone should have an Internet only deal with their cable companies, as most things that come with packages are things you could do online (phone calls and TV) for much cheaper...
So yeah, better internet!


On the topic of getting shot through walls... A number of weapons come with Armor Piercing as a perk, which specifically allows one to shoot through walls. The Epitaph sniper and Final Rest fusion rifle are two that come to mind, and I love sniping people while one of us is behind cover. So satisfyin, man....

But I can definitely see how a strong presence of this can be perceived as network issues. As you can get gunned down by a person who clearly has no clean shot at you... But it's totally by design.
Inb4 people complain about this perk...

On Crucible and lack of determinism

by yakaman, Monday, October 27, 2014, 08:39 (3918 days ago) @ Korny

I'm of the belief that everyone should have an Internet only deal with their cable companies, as most things that come with packages are things you could do online (phone calls and TV) for much cheaper...
So yeah, better internet!

I agree with this. Internet (data) is quickly becoming more important, more fundamental, than TV/phone. We're in a new development, and for some reason, getting cable internet here is going to take an act of god. It's 1997 all up in this mother.


On the topic of getting shot through walls... A number of weapons come with Armor Piercing as a perk, which specifically allows one to shoot through walls. The Epitaph sniper and Final Rest fusion rifle are two that come to mind, and I love sniping people while one of us is behind cover. So satisfyin, man....


But I can definitely see how a strong presence of this can be perceived as network issues. As you can get gunned down by a person who clearly has no clean shot at you... But it's totally by design.
Inb4 people complain about this perk...

Armor-piercing is legit, and all good. I'm talking more about getting strifed by a fusion rifle while clearly back behind the wall. I was not aware that there was a fusion rifle that included the perk.

In any case, the main reason for my post is that I believe Bungie to be good developers, and that they know what they're doing (duh). Therefore, when encountering something as mystifying as the weirdness I am seeing, I must conclude that they designed it well, and that my system doesn't quite meet "minimum requirements".

I wonder how latency ends up affecting or canceling damage.

by Jabberwok, Sunday, October 26, 2014, 17:52 (3919 days ago) @ yakaman

- No text -

Avatar

I don't think it does

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, October 26, 2014, 18:33 (3919 days ago) @ Jabberwok

I seem to always make the hit, even almost a full second after I'm dead.

I don't think it does

by yakaman, Monday, October 27, 2014, 08:48 (3918 days ago) @ ZackDark

I seem to always make the hit, even almost a full second after I'm dead.

Yeah, this. For example, just today I activated Radiance, rounded a corner and saw a guy crouched about 30 feet away. Then...

  • I jumped in the air towards him.
  • Threw a solar grenade right on top of him. He did not move.
  • He began firing his auto rifle at me
  • I landed and melee'd him (remember, with Radiance active)
  • He continued to shoot
  • I died
  • ...
  • He died

I think that had my internet been snappy, he would have been deader than fried chicken when I landed an melee'd him. Like, way dead. I believe I should have taken barely any damage before he died. I think he was "dead" for a full 2 seconds, but was allowed to continue to apply damage to me even though he was a dead man walking.

In the end, all of the damage I did was applied. I would argue that the damage he inflicted in the meantime is the issue. But this is where I can understand the problem - if my Xbox doesn't close the loop fast enough, how can the server apply the effects appropriately?

Avatar

Oh Contraire, Latency is a Big Deal

by Kahzgul, Monday, October 27, 2014, 14:07 (3918 days ago) @ ZackDark

How else do you explain a postmortem melee kill if not by latency affecting damage? It shouldn't physically be possible to punch someone to death after you've already died. With zero latency, you'd just be dead and he'd be on a killing spree.

And I've played games where one player was constantly running straight ahead and then teleporting backwards. This player would take no damage, because even though I was shooting what I thought was him, it was actually space he didn't occupy. He was immortal, if a little bad at navigating the map. I have no idea what it looked like on his end, but on my end he was an unkillable idiot who kept running into walls. If I saw him, I ran.

I've also played games where I lost every 1v1 fight. My full clip to anyone else's half clip and I barely scratched him, every time. It looked like my gun was just suddenly nerfed. What I think was going on was that my system had a poor connection to the server and I was a half second behind of everyone else. In all of these cases leaving matchmaking and joining a new room solved the issues.

We've also all played against someone who you killed, and they keep running for a minute and then just fall over. Then, ten seconds later, you get the points awarded to you. That's latency.

Lastly, and most annoyingly, are the people who are far enough behind in lag that you have time to fire a second rocket at them before they die. SO FRUSTRATING. Or hit them with 3 golden gun shots.

The net code in Destiny is smoother than other games I've played, but it still leaves a lot to be desired. On the one hand I'm glad people with crap internet can still play a relatively normal match, but on the other hand I wish they would stop punching me from beyond the grave!

Avatar

Oh Contraire, Latency is a Big Deal

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 27, 2014, 14:29 (3918 days ago) @ Kahzgul

How else do you explain a postmortem melee kill if not by latency affecting damage? It shouldn't physically be possible to punch someone to death after you've already died.

Scorch.

Avatar

Oh Contraire, Latency is a Big Deal

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, October 27, 2014, 14:31 (3918 days ago) @ Kermit

Scorch burning kills lists the kill as a little flame symbol, not the regular melee symbol. You can definitely get real postmortem melee kills too.

Avatar

Hunters don't have Scorch

by Kahzgul, Monday, October 27, 2014, 16:11 (3918 days ago) @ Kermit

But I still get plenty of postmortem melee kills.

Avatar

Oh Contraire, Latency is a Big Deal

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, October 27, 2014, 16:25 (3918 days ago) @ Kahzgul

Well, I rarely run into cases where latency cancel or diminish my damage output, so that's what I was going for. I think the netcode tries very hard to negate latency and that's why all the shenanigans happen.

Avatar

Oh Contraire, Latency is a Big Deal

by Durandal, Tuesday, October 28, 2014, 13:33 (3917 days ago) @ ZackDark

I think they have a sort of damage buffer, where if you and the other guy melee or kill each other within so many milliseconds then it both counts. I have killed people and been killed nearly simultaneously by shotgun/melee, which theoretically should not happen.

This was an issue in Halo as well, where at first it would give priority to whoever had better ping, so you would do a near simultanious melee and one would stand with no damage and the other would fall. They eventually patched to to a similar system where both would fall.

On Crucible and lack of determinism

by yakaman, Thursday, November 06, 2014, 09:19 (3908 days ago) @ yakaman

I'd love to hear from anyone that has had a quantum change in connection for/during Destiny (or other MP games) and if it made a difference. Finally, at last, we come to my ulterior motive: if I'm going to try to convince my wife that we need a 2nd internet connection, and cable to boot, I'd like to know it's worth it. ;-)

Well, to coincide with my XBox One purchase next weekend, I've got Cable Internet scheduled for install on November 17th, with advertised speeds of "Up to 100 Mbps downloads" and "Up to 10 Mbps uploads".

Hells to the yes. Now, when I suck at online Multi-player, there'll be no one to blame but myself! :)

Wait.

:(

Back to the forum index
RSS Feed of thread