If at first you grind, grind again.

"Specifically, exotic items will become available for an upgrade to keep them in line with the new top-tier gear.

Here’s how it works. Upgrading exotic weapons and armor is completed by interacting with the weekend vendor, Xur. When he arrives every Friday morning, he will now have a new option to upgrade one of your equipped exotic items. Each week, he’ll offer some (but not all) exotic items as being available to upgrade.

You’ll need three things. First, you need to own the original version of that exotic item, and turn it in to exchange for the upgraded version. It doesn’t matter if this old version of the item is brand new or fully upgraded. To complete the upgrade, you’ll also need to turn in an exotic shard. This recently introduced new material is available for purchase for seven strange coins from Xur, or by breaking down another existing exotic item in your inventory. Finally, each exotic upgrade costs a hefty dose of cash – around 7000 glimmer as of my playthrough of the expansion in mid-November. After turning all three of these things into Xur, he’ll hand you a brand new version of your item with a higher defense or attack value cap.

It’s important to note that this process resets the upgrades on your exotic item, but you’ll now have a new higher damage or defense cap to work towards – so you’ll need to decide if you’d rather keep your fully upgraded old version of a weapon or armor piece, or start over. With that said, the process of upgrading exotic items is now faster, and does not require ascendant materials. Instead, the last slot requires one additional exotic shard, as revealed in Monday’s patch."

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I don't want to have to grind a fucking exotic weapon again just so it stays viable.

Whoever came up with that idea needs their damn head checked. They're either an idiot or a sadist.

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They're either an idiot or a sadist.

Why not both?

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I mean typically I try to keep my criticism of Bungie constructive and respectful but this is just too stupid and indefensible.

I remember Deej saying something about how emotional reactions players have towards the game are important to him. There is my raw gut feeling about the xp reset to upgrade your weapons. You should be working towards the new cap the old cap, not from the start.

Just because there is a light level 32 doesn't mean everyones characters get reset to level 1. Why does that happen to weapons and armor then?

Even flavor wise this is a fucking stupid decision. If the idea is that a weapon or armor becoming stronger over time is because the guardian using it is learning more about it and unlocking its true potential why do they start over from square one after visiting Xur?

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I mean typically I try to keep my criticism of Bungie constructive and respectful but this is just too stupid and indefensible.

I don't normally notice when it takes forever on those last damage upgrades, but relearning already earned and signature abilities...is it really that hard to program the upgrades to carry over?

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I mean typically I try to keep my criticism of Bungie constructive and respectful but this is just too stupid and indefensible.

I don't normally notice when it takes forever on those last damage upgrades, but relearning already earned and signature abilities...is it really that hard to program the upgrades to carry over?

Um, they should just automatically upgrade the attack value on Exotics like they did for the Mythoclast.

Move the carrot too many times and I'm just going to order a pizza.

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I mean typically I try to keep my criticism of Bungie constructive and respectful but this is just too stupid and indefensible.

I don't normally notice when it takes forever on those last damage upgrades, but relearning already earned and signature abilities...is it really that hard to program the upgrades to carry over?

Um, they should just automatically upgrade the attack value on Exotics like they did for the Mythoclast.

Move the carrot too many times and I'm just going to order a pizza.

Well I mean...I'll still eat the carrot. But I won't like it! And our relationship will sour! And I'll come home later after work and you'll start seeing other people and soon dinner will be a thin veneer and we'll barely talk to each other...

Wait sorry, that's my relationship with my spouse since Destiny came out, nevermind.

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I mean typically I try to keep my criticism of Bungie constructive and respectful but this is just too stupid and indefensible.

I don't normally notice when it takes forever on those last damage upgrades, but relearning already earned and signature abilities...is it really that hard to program the upgrades to carry over?

Um, they should just automatically upgrade the attack value on Exotics like they did for the Mythoclast.

Move the carrot too many times and I'm just going to order a pizza.

Ideally there would either be no upgrading guns at all, or there could be a system where perk upgrades are acquired by doing specific fun and interesting things in the game.

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Ideally there would either be no upgrading guns at all, or there could be a system where perk upgrades are acquired by doing specific fun and interesting things in the game.

Actually, that would be a great way to do the missives.

You get your new exotic unupgraded right away, and each time you complete part of the missive, you unlock one of the perks.

Damnit. That's way better.

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Ideally there would either be no upgrading guns at all, or there could be a system where perk upgrades are acquired by doing specific fun and interesting things in the game.

Actually, that would be a great way to do the missives.

You get your new exotic unupgraded right away, and each time you complete part of the missive, you unlock one of the perks.

Damnit. That's way better.

Yup, but the steps should be:

1. Not explicitly listed and instead rely on you to pay attention to the narrative / universe. The side quest chain could hint you along, but it should require some investigation and exploration on your part.

2. Not be stupid "Do X, Y Number of times". Design entire missions and challenges around this idea.

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Yup, but the steps should be:

1. Not explicitly listed and instead rely on you to pay attention to the narrative / universe. The side quest chain could hint you along, but it should require some investigation and exploration on your part.

i.e. ask Master Google. :P

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Yup, but the steps should be:

1. Not explicitly listed and instead rely on you to pay attention to the narrative / universe. The side quest chain could hint you along, but it should require some investigation and exploration on your part.

i.e. ask Master Google. :P

If you want to cheat, that's up to you. The players who want to do that will, where the rest will figure it out on their own because they enjoy it. There's nothing you can do about that in this day and age.

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...is it really that hard to program the upgrades to carry over?

No, it shouldn't be.

On one hand, this is good because it answers my questions about what makes an older exotic worth keeping as new content is released.

On the other hand, this is a pretty blunt way of getting you to keep playing the game that is not very encouraging.

I think the model would work better if they just required you to add an additional exotic shard to your already existing weapons. We know for a fact they can change the skill trees, so why not just add an additional node when it comes time to carry it over for new expansions and levels. Just tack on a shard requirement to get the increased damage\defense.

That seems like the best compromise to me.

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...is it really that hard to program the upgrades to carry over?

No, it shouldn't be.

On one hand, this is good because it answers my questions about what makes an older exotic worth keeping as new content is released.

On the other hand, this is a pretty blunt way of getting you to keep playing the game that is not very encouraging.

I think the model would work better if they just required you to add an additional exotic shard to your already existing weapons. We know for a fact they can change the skill trees, so why not just add an additional node when it comes time to carry it over for new expansions and levels. Just tack on a shard requirement to get the increased damage\defense.

That seems like the best compromise to me.

I think if you just did a patch that increased all exotics' attack, and didn't make people grind them back up, you wouldn't really decrease the amount people played, provided you gave them new enemies to shoot. It seems like a woefully unnecessary grind; I'm going to play the game the same amount regardless because it's fun, I'll now just have to spend more of that time doing something I did before already and didn't enjoy the first time.

Woof. I don't really mind grind but this is some next level shit right here.

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How is it that 500 levels in Titanfall seems better than this?

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Actually they changed the campaign level lobby. Once you play through them the first time, they are then chosen randomly. You can no longer choose which level you want to play.

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Remove what you've already been given or have equipped, from the loot pool.

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Remove what you've already been given or have equipped, from the loot pool.

It hurts to think about, right?

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I think the model would work better if they just required you to add an additional exotic shard to your already existing weapons. We know for a fact they can change the skill trees, so why not just add an additional node when it comes time to carry it over for new expansions and levels. Just tack on a shard requirement to get the increased damage\defense.

That seems like the best compromise to me.

Yes, I was just discussing this with one of my teammates & I had the same thought. I think adding a new 'damage upgrade circle' for an exotic shard would be the best way. If not that then let us apply a scaled amount of our current weapon's experience to our newly exchanged one (such that we don't lose our perks)?

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I think the model would work better if they just required you to add an additional exotic shard to your already existing weapons. We know for a fact they can change the skill trees, so why not just add an additional node when it comes time to carry it over for new expansions and levels. Just tack on a shard requirement to get the increased damage\defense.

That seems like the best compromise to me.

Yes, I was just discussing this with one of my teammates & I had the same thought. I think adding a new 'damage upgrade circle' for an exotic shard would be the best way. If not that then let us apply a scaled amount of our current weapon's experience to our newly exchanged one (such that we don't lose our perks)?

They just did an increased attack level for Mythoclast, upping base numbers. Why is that not the policy for all exotics?

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Because that would make the new weapons less special. Part of the focus with this expansion is on chasing the new, better gear. If all our existing exotics automatically became top-tier weapons, the new guns would be far less desirable.

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bones glued on.

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lol

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On the other hand, this is a pretty blunt way of getting you to keep playing the game that is not very encouraging.

Show of hands, how many of you were planning to stop playing the game? Yeah, it'll take a few days per exotic but those were days you were going to be playing anyway. Bemoaning this seems kinda silly when there are real bugs and significant balance issues that need to be addresses.

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Yeah, it'll take a few days per exotic but those were days you were going to be playing anyway.

I think the issue most people are taking is not that they have to play more to get more. In fact, that is what everyone is saying they would prefer. I would much prefer to play more and unlock further damage.

The issue is that you have to give up all the abilities (mainly signature abilities that we all love) in order to keep your exotic weapon still viable. If you don't undergo this loss and subsequent grind, you basically experience a nerf, because the people and enemies you encounter will have damages boosted.

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Yeah, it'll take a few days per exotic but those were days you were going to be playing anyway.

I think the issue most people are taking is not that they have to play more to get more. In fact, that is what everyone is saying they would prefer. I would much prefer to play more and unlock further damage.

The issue is that you have to give up all the abilities (mainly signature abilities that we all love) in order to keep your exotic weapon still viable. If you don't undergo this loss and subsequent grind, you basically experience a nerf, because the people and enemies you encounter will have damages boosted.

"Grind" of course being used in the DBO tradition to mean "playing the game." You'll get you signature abilities back and upgrading exotics is supposed to be faster than before. I'm just happy that any exotic I have will stay relevant if I want it to. Being forced to play the game I was already playing is such a non-issue to me.

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Just because the gameplay is enjoyable means you have to bend over backwards for dumb decision making.

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Not to mention having to grind out xp on a weapon is frustrating enough as it is.

In Halo I can pick up a brute shot or a needler and be just as effective with it as I can an AR or DMR, as long as my skill is there. Same thing in WoW even.

The weapon xp thing is just dumb.

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Not to mention having to grind out xp on a weapon is frustrating enough as it is.

In Halo I can pick up a brute shot or a needler and be just as effective with it as I can an AR or DMR, as long as my skill is there. Same thing in WoW even.

The weapon xp thing is just dumb.

Yeah, I was looking for a reason to dovetail my play mostly into crucible and the occasional nightfall. This seems like a good time: play through the new strike/raid, get some fun stuff from that, then just hop on a couple nights a week to play crucible, where the only gear I wear is my coordinated dead orbit outfit that I want to wear because I enjoy how it looks, and the only gun I use is already good to go and doesn't need to be 300+.

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"Grind" of course being used in the DBO tradition to mean "playing the game." You'll get you signature abilities back and upgrading exotics is supposed to be faster than before. I'm just happy that any exotic I have will stay relevant if I want it to. Being forced to play the game I was already playing is such a non-issue to me.

"Grind" here being you do the exact same progression over again to attain something you have already attained. Surely you see the difference between calling repeating missions "grinding" and building something that you have already built "grinding".

You are acting like having to give up abilities that make a gun fun is nothing more than "playing the game". I really can't put myself in your shoes here to see what you are thinking, I think everyone would agree that there is miles of difference between giving up a weapon and having to rebuild it and simply having the play multiple missions. The latter is only a part of the former.

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On the other hand, this is a pretty blunt way of getting you to keep playing the game that is not very encouraging.

Show of hands, how many of you were planning to stop playing the game? Yeah, it'll take a few days per exotic but those were days you were going to be playing anyway. Bemoaning this seems kinda silly when there are real bugs and significant balance issues that need to be addresses.

I already play way less than I did when it first came out. In fact, now the game is to see how much I can efficiently progress for a 2 hour session.

Bemoaning about having to literally do something you already did (just to remain on equal footing with other players) is not silly, it is irritating.

I put my time in to max out my favorite gun.

If I want to keep using my favorite gun as levels change, I have to start from square one again.

That is terribly inefficient, and not fun.

Imagine that in Destiny, the level cap for your character is increased from 30 to 40. You are at level 29 right now. In order to get to 40, you have to start you character back at level 1. You have to re-unlock your character abilities, and you can't use your armor until you get back up to at least 20.

This is what they are asking you to do for your exotics.

Do you understand the frustration now?

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On the other hand, this is a pretty blunt way of getting you to keep playing the game that is not very encouraging.

Show of hands, how many of you were planning to stop playing the game? Yeah, it'll take a few days per exotic but those were days you were going to be playing anyway. Bemoaning this seems kinda silly when there are real bugs and significant balance issues that need to be addresses.

Normally I agree with you over the Cody argument, Raga, but damn. I dislike it when developers disregard the time I put into something. It's not even that they're forcing me to do bounties and farming to get this stuff up. It's that I already did do that. Makes me feel a little chafed.

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I'd much rather weapons are not reset. I'd really rather armor not reset since I rely on things like my Hunter's always active radar or my Titan's blinding bubble. I will grumble a bit during the time my abilities are locked away. But at the same time I can honestly say I will have fun getting those upgrades back because I have fun playing the game in general.

I suppose I'm willing to trade re-upgrading a few exotics once every three months in exchange for my favorite guns remaining relevant. I do appreciate the counter argument that forcing a reset is undoing the time and effort someone put in to maxing items out though. :)

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Yeah this is one of the situations where we should have our cake and eat it too dammit.

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I suppose I'm willing to trade re-upgrading a few exotics once every three months in exchange for my favorite guns remaining relevant.

It doesn't help that we can't upgrade any of them at the same time. Such is the way of the MMOG; I guess we should be grateful we can keep them at all.

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I guess we should be grateful we can keep them at all.

Nope, you don't need to thank Bungie for not wanting to make totally new content (which is what totally new weapons would require). They are not doing you a favour; they are saving themselves work.

Have you noticed that many of the new weapons are old weapon shapes with bone-effect paper mache stuck on?

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I guess we should be grateful we can keep them at all.

Nope, you don't need to thank Bungie for not wanting to make totally new content (which is what totally new weapons would require). They are not doing you a favour; they are saving themselves work.

Have you noticed that many of the new weapons are old weapon shapes with bone-effect paper mache stuck on?

I mean hell, half of the guns in the game are reskins with more damage and perks. But that's the way almost every MMO is. I'm just glad it's not going the way of Diablo 2 where everybody had the exact same runeword sword by the end of it.

My exotic fusion rifle can stay relevant/useful. My problem is Bungie not recognizing I already did the work to upgrade it, and equating my exotic as equal to that of some other dude who never used it or upgraded it at all. It offends my righteous sense of justice. And I will Butthurt about that, most definitely.

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but they see it as their time not yours.

You both value that time but in diametrically opposed ways.

They see the time you spend playing as: time spent playing. You see it as an investment of effort. They are annulling that effort or, at least, a large chunk of it.

For whatever reason they have a target of X player hours per month to meet. It is nice that they got x hours from you last month but that was last month. They have next month to consider and the ones after that. Your previous hours have no further worth to them.

I don't know if it is only an internal target or if they have a commitment to Activision. Maybe their target is x% of players playing Destiny over a given time period. If you spend all your time grinding in Destiny then you wont have energy or time to play other games.

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and I've only been not playing for two^H^H^H three days but I don't feel any urge to start again.

I didn't make a decision to stop. I just collected some bounties, went to orbit, reviewed my bounties to decide what to do and couldn't pick an option that I wanted to do.

I couldn't find anything that I hadn't done to death dozens of times. I couldn't find anything that I could face doing again. The very thought of each of them made me feel a bit sick. I could not make myself pick any of them.

I just turned off the game.

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Good job! That's exactly what I've been advocating for months now. If you don't find it fun play something you do enjoy. I've been mixing my Destiny time with Skyrim and Child of Light recently for instance. :)

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and the only other game I gave up on was Reach and for exactly the same reason. The grind for reward poisoned the fun. (I got that black visor and it tasted of ashes.)

I still played ODST right up until Destiny came out and played a few games after. The original game is still played. I hated h2. Halo 3 doesn't get as much love but I never sickened of it.

For the Halo games that I like, that didn't have rewards for play, I never sickened of them and never needed to take time away from them to restore my enthusiasm for them.

There were weeks were I ran Coastal Highway three times a night all week. There is a checkpoint in Data Hive, I finished CH, listened all the way through the game's credits, reached the start menu and restarted at my checkpoint. The game gave me no rewards, unlocked no upgrades and I thoroughly enjoyed playing it.

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I think it's laughabe to give up on a game because of cosmetic, non-required upgrades.

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I think it's laughabe to give up on a game because of cosmetic, non-required upgrades.

These aren't cosmetic upgrades, they're stat and ability upgrades. And is it laughable? I stopped playing Diablo II after one too many permadeaths. Sometimes it's the loss of something you work hard for that turns a grind sour. You might keep playing destiny if you lost all of your characters, for instance, but I probably wouldn't.

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Pretty sure Ragashingo was referring to Reach there.

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Pretty sure Ragashingo was referring to Reach there.

Ohhhhhhh that makes sense.

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you do seem to be having a lot of fun laughing at those who aren't enjoying the game, why stop now.

I bet you are feeling very superior right now.

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I want people to have fun. If that means giving up on Destiny or Bungie then great. More power to you! I do hope you gave up on Reach for more than its cosmetic items though...

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I want people to have fun. If that means giving up on Destiny or Bungie then great. More power to you! I do hope you gave up on Reach for more than its cosmetic items though...

That's right, have another snigger.

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I want people to have fun. If that means giving up on Destiny or Bungie then great. More power to you! I do hope you gave up on Reach for more than its cosmetic items though...

That's right, have another snigger.

So it's not enough I want you to be happy in whatever you do. I have to agree with your every reason too? I'll keep that in mind.

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Quote the words I used to ask or demand that you agree with me

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That's a good sign to stop or to reel it back into discussion about the games. Don't make it personal.

-Your friendly-neighborhood moderator.

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Sometimes someone's subtext can be a lot more negative or hurtful than what they are saying.

But . . . you still have a point. I just wanted to make one too :)

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Sometimes someone's subtext can be a lot more negative or hurtful than what they are saying.

But . . . you still have a point. I just wanted to make one too :)

You're totally right. But this is also the Internet, and most of us are communicating with folks we've never met before. Sometimes the subtext isn't intended or is misinterpreted. One person might think the other person is sadistically laughing at them while that other person is thinking the first is on a pedestal waving a finger at them. And both might not have meant to convey that or to fall into those roles. Assumptions can lead to more hurt.

It's a tricky thing. So I find it's better to take a break and chill off, and try to get back to the real discussion. But I'm not trying to diminish the issue. :)

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I stopped caring about the cosmetic upgrades cause that's all they were, and then I just played Invasion :)

Harder to do that in Destiny, the investment system rewards you with things that change how you play. And there is no invasion ;-;

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and the only other game I gave up on was Reach and for exactly the same reason. The grind for reward poisoned the fun. (I got that black visor and it tasted of ashes.)

Yeah. I have no idea why this simple litmus test isn't applied to game activities.

- Would you do it if there was no reward given? If the answer is no, it doesn't belong in your game.
- Is the activity intrinsically fun? If no it doesn't belong in your game.

Someone's job should be to do this to everything you ask the player to do, and reject what doesn't pass the test.

Let's look at some of Destiny's activities:

Raid - Passes both
Crucible matches - passes both
Nightfall Strikes - Potentially passes both if the modifiers are interesting.
Daily story missions - Fails the first test.
Strike playlists - fails the first test.
Upgrading weapons - fails both
Upgrading armor - fails both
Bounties - fails both
Patrol Missions - fails both
Exotic Bounties - fails both

If you look at the game though, the Crucible is the only thing that passes the test that does not require you to do a bunch of the things that fail.

This is the biggest problem with the game.

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and the only other game I gave up on was Reach and for exactly the same reason. The grind for reward poisoned the fun. (I got that black visor and it tasted of ashes.)

Yeah. I have no idea why this simple litmus test isn't applied to game activities.

- Would you do it if there was no reward given? If the answer is no, it doesn't belong in your game.
- Is the activity intrinsically fun? If no it doesn't belong in your game.

Someone's job should be to do this to everything you ask the player to do, and reject what doesn't pass the test.

Let's look at some of Destiny's activities:

Raid - Passes both
Crucible matches - passes both
Nightfall Strikes - Potentially passes both if the modifiers are interesting.
Daily story missions - Fails the first test.
Strike playlists - fails the first test.
Upgrading weapons - fails both
Upgrading armor - fails both
Bounties - fails both
Patrol Missions - fails both
Exotic Bounties - fails both

If you look at the game though, the Crucible is the only thing that passes the test that does not require you to do a bunch of the things that fail.

This is the biggest problem with the game.

*sigh*
You know very well that's all subjective. You can't credibly call them out on not putting a high priority on making something be fun and worth doing for its own sake unless you can show that they don't think this stuff is fun or worth doing for its own sake.
Their motto ("We make games we want to play") implies they do in fact check those things-- nothing implies that their idea of fun and yours will line up.
I think there's a point to be made somewhere in here, but you're couching it again in this "my views > your views" standpoint that you can't seem to get away from for more than a few months.

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*sigh*
You know very well that's all subjective. You can't credibly call them out on not putting a high priority on making something be fun and worth doing for its own sake unless you can show that they don't think this stuff is fun or worth doing for its own sake.
Their motto ("We make games we want to play") implies they do in fact check those things-- nothing implies that their idea of fun and yours will line up.
I think there's a point to be made somewhere in here, but you're couching it again in this "my views > your views" standpoint that you can't seem to get away from for more than a few months.

Name ONE person who would like to farm materials for an hour to upgrade their gun. Nobody? If it were fun, why'd they change it and let you buy materials now?

Because it wasn't fun, people complained and they fixed it. They are caving on a ton of their decisions to make the game more fun. You cannot with a straight face say that you would routinely do patrol missions if you got no reward or there were no bounties for them. Or go out of your way to kill 2 things at once 20 times with a fusion rifle.

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Name ONE person who would like to farm materials for an hour to upgrade their gun. Nobody? If it were fun, why'd they change it and let you buy materials now?

Because it wasn't fun, people complained and they fixed it. They are caving on a ton of their decisions to make the game more fun. You cannot with a straight face say that you would routinely do patrol missions if you got no reward or there were no bounties for them. Or go out of your way to kill 2 things at once 20 times with a fusion rifle.

I thought there was an imbalance to the number of materials you would need to upgrade versus the ease of finding them, and thankfully Bungie is adjusting for that going forward, but Patrol is by far the thing I play most.

I love to explore and I find the missions relaxing before going to bed. With each Patrol, I usually find a nook I hadn't seen before. Just yesterday, I found two Ghosts! It helps that I love just examining the art direction, too.

I always skip that fusion rifle bounty you mentioned (and rarely use fusion rifles altogether), but I use the rest of the bounties to mix up my patrols. Even after completing them though, I'll keep patrolling for fun.

I also rarely put actively acquiring materials above anything else I was doing. I did so many patrols already that I tended to be filled to the brim with glowing things. I think I only really 'farmed' for Helium coils once when I first got an Exotic and was impatient and excited to empower it.

So there you go.

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I love to explore and I find the missions relaxing before going to bed. With each Patrol, I usually find a nook I hadn't seen before. Just yesterday, I found two Ghosts! It helps that I love just examining the art direction, too.

I said patrol missions. :-p You're just exploring!

P.S. Have you made it past the level 26 minotaurs in the Citadel? There's really cool stuff in there, including the best shadow wall in the game.

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I love to explore and I find the missions relaxing before going to bed. With each Patrol, I usually find a nook I hadn't seen before. Just yesterday, I found two Ghosts! It helps that I love just examining the art direction, too.

I said patrol missions. :-p You're just exploring!

Heh, in my quoted text right there, I said patrol missions too! Hah.

P.S. Have you made it past the level 26 minotaurs in the Citadel? There's really cool stuff in there, including the best shadow wall in the game.

Do you mean up the beam up of light?

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Yep, I was going to say. The amount of time I've spent just patrolling is not insignificant. Oh, and I gathered enough materials to upgrade my gun again? Great!

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I always skip that fusion rifle bounty you mentioned (and rarely use fusion rifles altogether), but I use the rest of the bounties to mix up my patrols. Even after completing them though, I'll keep patrolling for fun.

At least we can all agree that that one is the worst. Seriously, 20 times? How often do they think that happens? I cheese the bounty every single damn time because the likelihood of it happening in normal gameplay is so low. I think 5 might have been a more reasonable target. Or 1.

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*sigh*
You know very well that's all subjective. You can't credibly call them out on not putting a high priority on making something be fun and worth doing for its own sake unless you can show that they don't think this stuff is fun or worth doing for its own sake.
Their motto ("We make games we want to play") implies they do in fact check those things-- nothing implies that their idea of fun and yours will line up.
I think there's a point to be made somewhere in here, but you're couching it again in this "my views > your views" standpoint that you can't seem to get away from for more than a few months.

Name ONE person who would like to farm materials for an hour to upgrade their gun. Nobody? If it were fun, why'd they change it and let you buy materials now?

That depends on your definition of farming. I've run around old Russia, and even just The Steppes, the area you spawn in, for an hour, two hours, more even, just shooting, stabbing grenading, and super-ing enemies and picking up spinmetal and chests and upgrading anything that unlocks, and enjoyed it a lot, more than I would've expected a few months ago.

Because it wasn't fun, people complained and they fixed it. They are caving on a ton of their decisions to make the game more fun. You cannot with a straight face say that you would routinely do patrol missions if you got no reward or there were no bounties for them.

I can tell you that because I do them without thought of reward all the time. Bigger motivators include the flashing and beeping getting a little annoying after a while, my natural inclination to have every widget and flip every switch, getting me to move around the world (because, again, I have nothing better to do, and I'm not great at making decisions), and possibly telling me something new. (The example I like to bring up for that last one is "go scan [x]", where x is a previously unidentified object. It fits scenery, gameplay, and canon together, if only on a surface level, and that makes the world feel more real. It tells me: this is an object with a name or designation; it has some kind of significance; the City wants to know about it, so they care about what it signifies; and they're sending me to find out about it, which sounds like a reasonable task to have me do since I'm in the area and I can handle whatever danger there might be.)

As for them changing the currency exchange, since ascendant materials aren't required to upgrade exotic items now, and since it sounds like Vanguard and Crucible marks will soon matter much less to whether or not you can buy a given legendary item (the amount of time and effort it takes to go up a rank is more than enough to max out your marks), environmental materials are a bigger bottleneck on item progression than before and will become even more of one, so it makes sense to make them easier to get, and since marks will seemingly be less useful it makes sense to provide a new way to use them.

Well, that, and the scenario I described above for old Russia gets materials relatively quickly but it's also a scenario I admit most people probably wouldn't find that fun (which is a shame, to me, because those people are missing out on a very simple, continuous kind of fun), and while I'm swimming in spinmetal and have tons of helium and spirit bloom and a good deal of relic iron, I've seen a lot of people complaining about not having enough, which probably has to do with them finding gathering it to not be fun (and because relic iron is perplexingly hard to spot and spirit bloom kind of blends into foliage). If it's not fun for the majority of players it makes sense to reduce the need for it-- but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have any fun inherent to it, and it doesn't mean Bungie didn't think it was fun. It might mean they should've thought about it and playtested it more, but then you get into grey areas and weighing opinions and it gets messy fast, and eventually someone has to make a decision. I think they made, if not the right decision, at least a reasonable and respectable decision-- and I respect that they may have changed their minds, or that they might be putting the players' enjoyment ahead of some their original goals and decisions, since player enjoyment should be the primary goal.

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NOT fun - purgatory but without remission. Purgatory without remission? That's hell!

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Implementing this seems kinda silly when there are real bugs and significant balance issues that need to be addresses.

fixed that for you
but seriously, it's probably not cutting into that
Is it that big a deal? It depends how much damage we're talking about, and how much you need it, and whether you have to have every possible upgrade and advantage whether it's significant or not.
Personally I don't care because I don't care enough to restart my exotics weapons just for this, and I probably will restart my exotic armor because screw it, I have other armor and half the reason I have my exotics is they look cool. I wish they were doing the Iron Banner style reforging thing instead, though, I really would like some things changed without having to wait for a drop or for Xur to have what I want (or, depending on how it works, they could just beef up The Last Word's impact and/or accuracy, it's outclassed by rare weapons, it's ridiculous).

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On the other hand, this is a pretty blunt way of getting you to keep playing the game that is not very encouraging.

Show of hands, how many of you were planning to stop playing the game?

Me? I'm at the point where I've conquered all Destiny's challenges and am ready to move on. If it wasn't for the new upcoming raid, I'd have been done last week after flawless raider.

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I don't want to have to grind a fucking exotic weapon again just so it stays viable.

Whoever came up with that idea needs their damn head checked. They're either an idiot or a sadist.

Blame their decision to release the game in pieces via DLC rather than one complete package.

This is one of the reasons why DLC is inferior. When you release DLC you have a problem: the new stuff has to be better than the old stuff, or nobody would want the new stuff. If that's true, then the old stuff either becomes obsolete, or you have to upgrade it. If all the content were released all at once, everything could simply balance out with everything else. We could have had 3 raids that all max out at level 30 but give different stuff, and all the gear could be maxed at 300. It would have been easy to integrate everything in with everything else and not have to worry about the need for stuff to be better than other stuff because it's new.

It's bullshit. If I upgrade my exotic, it should keep all the upgrade nodes it already has. You should not negate anything the player has done, ever. Only build upon it. They should teach that at game design 101, because this decision should earn them an F.

The Crota raid better be amazing.

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"new legendaries can be purchased using commendations which come from reputation packs"

No word on whether faction rep counts for these commendations, but I'll be faction repping up to 99% and holding there until the xpac hits.

I HATE having so many currencies in this game, especially with the absurdly limited amount of storage that we have.

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"new legendaries can be purchased using commendations which come from reputation packs"

No word on whether faction rep counts for these commendations, but I'll be faction repping up to 99% and holding there until the xpac hits.

I HATE having so many currencies in this game, especially with the absurdly limited amount of storage that we have.

This part... I still don't know what to say. If I read it correctly, it means you can only buy one weapon or piece of armor for each time that you rank up above rank 3, which takes forever. I really don't get the thinking there, and I'm inclined to say it's really stupid.

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The decisions all make sense when viewed in that light. They present you with a myriad of small problems whose answer is always: spend a bit more time playing to solve them.

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The decisions all make sense when viewed in that light. They present you with a myriad of small problems whose answer is always: spend a bit more time playing to solve them.

These aren't really interesting problems to solve though. Why spend the time when the problems aren't challenging?

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They are all the same problem: how do I get resource x?

X is:

ascendant blah
spin metal
glimmer
whatever

Each of those things is a resource or you could call them currencies. Point is that there are so many to hide the fact that all you are doing is exchanging time played for a resource/currency.

It looks like you are trying to achieve lots of things but the underlying truth is that you buy resource with time.

And yes, to answer your question, you aren't doing it because solving the problem is interesting, you are doing it for two reasons:

the resource let's you do things that do interest you (the fun)
our brains are wired to engage in grind - once we start it is hard to disengage

Not all scientists agree on how this works, the literature is not settled but...

Dopamine used to be seen as a reward hormone. The idea was that you get a hit once you achive the goal as a rewarded for doing the grind.

But when people looked at when the dopamine was being released it wasn't after the goal was achieved, it was during the grind.

The old idea was that an organism would work out that the grind would achieve a good end and the organism would grind in anticipation of reward.

The thing is that not all organisms are bright. You would need all organisms to be bright enough to make the connection and plan ahead before a dopamine reward mechanism could evolve. If dopamine worked as a reward hormone.

Dopamine and dopamine like transmitters go way back in evolutionary terms and pretty much every organism needs to do some form of grind to get enough resources.

A mechanism that makes the grind its own reward is more likely to arise than a mechanism that depends on foresight before it could work.

So we are probably hardwired to just get on with shit without too much complaint. It is our higher cognitive faculties that lead us to question why we are doing this.

But once we have bought into the need for the grind, if even for a while, then we get into the habit and carry on even though it isn't, making us happy. We are trapped in our biology. And people who make investment systems know this.

In addition, once we achieve a certain level of success we do not want to slip back. We are invested. So if changes are made to return us to a less successful state then we will redouble our efforts to get back to our former level. This works as long as we can feel that it will only take a bit more work, if it's just a bit more of what we have already been doing.

Our intellects are an enemy to the investment system, if we start saying to ourselves, "wait a minute...".

Although we understand all this we are still slaves to our biology and the main fun of Destiny is in the weapons. We want to try them all out. An exotic doesn't deliver its signature ability until quite late in its tech tree. That is no accident; by the time you unlock it you have become invested in the weapon.

There is nothing haphazard or accidental about the decisions that bungie has made. They didn't hire investment systems experts for nothing.

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This is obviously well thought out and educated but it assumes quite a bit, especially an unvarying "we". For example, guns aren't in the top five reasons I play the game. And since I have fun with the gameplay and the world, I'm not going out of my way to level gear. It just happens naturally. I'm patient, I upgrade when I can and if I'm not having fun I quit for the night, regardless of some statistic or the progress of a little green bar.

I get where people may not like the game. I get where someone might think Bungie made mistakes. But vilifying the developer as some evil genius mastermind manipulating all of us because you personally don't like their game? Well, you lose me there. :)

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This is obviously well thought out and educated but it assumes quite a bit, especially an unvarying "we". For example, guns aren't in the top five reasons I play the game. And since I have fun with the gameplay and the world, I'm not going out of my way to level gear. It just happens naturally. I'm patient, I upgrade when I can and if I'm not having fun I quit for the night, regardless of some statistic or the progress of a little green bar.

If you can play that way, then that's fantastic. But some of us, who like the challenge of the high end content, have to keep up with everybody else playing it since you can't do it solo, and doing it unspoiled the first time is the most fun you can have with this game.

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This is obviously well thought out and educated but it assumes quite a bit, especially an unvarying "we". For example, guns aren't in the top five reasons I play the game.

Nevertheless we are humans and all have dopamine neural circuitry and are subject to our own biological natures. So the vast majority of what I said does apply to all of us. I also mentioned that the literature was not settled. So I don't recognise the charge that I was being too sweeping in using "an unvarying we". I wasn't saying that there was no other possible interpretation for what Bungie is doing.

But, investment systems are understood and are a field in game making. There are experts in it and Bungie hired some. When people ask, "why can't an exotic's signature feature be unlocked earlier?", my answer would be, "because then you would not be so invested in the weapon".

They are called investment systems for a reason. They could be called, "unlocking stuff systems" or "upgrading things systems" but that doesn't reflect the idea of having gamer tie-in. If you can persuade yourself to just put a little more effort in to get what you want then you will put in more effort and get used to the amount of work that you are expending.

And since I have fun with the gameplay and the world, I'm not going out of my way to level gear. It just happens naturally. I'm patient, I upgrade when I can and if I'm not having fun I quit for the night, regardless of some statistic or the progress of a little green bar.

I get where people may not like the game. I get where someone might think Bungie made mistakes. But vilifying the developer as some evil genius mastermind manipulating all of us because you personally don't like their game? Well, you lose me there. :)

I am not saying that they are cunning foxes because I don't like the game. I am not saying that investment systems prey on inherent aspects of our biology because I don't like the game and I am not saying that there is definite method in what Bungie is doing because I don't like the game.

Would you like to argue that bungie didn't research this stuff when they set out to include an investment system? Were the experts they hired actually not experts? Did it all just happen by accident? Was every decision arbitrary or accidental?

I'm not saying that you are saying those things. I'm just engaging in Reductio ad absurdum to encourage you to think about this, to look beyond some notion that I am saying what I am saying because I, supposedly, don't like Destiny. When I say that Bungie hired experts who know what they are doing I am not saying that because I don't like the game. I am saying it because it is true.

I am also pointing out to people that some of the things they question did not happen by accident. Some people have asked why the signature features of an exotic are unlocked late in the tech tree. My answer is because the time taken to unlock them makes you invested in them.

It could be that you used unvarying we to mean that I thought that every person who plays Destiny is in it for the guns. I am not saying that. But you can't craft every post like a lawyer.

Destiny as a game is definitely majorly focussed on the gear. I would say that exploration was way down on Bungie's list. But maybe that is a discussion for another thread.

My post was addressed to Cody who would probably agree with me that the guns/gear and their levelling up are definitely the major thrust of the game. I was answering his question using what I think is a shared frame of reference (shared between myself and Cody).

Please don't take that as any form of, "don't butt in on our conversation". I didn't mean that at all. I'm just trying to explain why I used we when talking about the guns. I am explaining the context in which I used the we.

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That's BEYOND overkill!

If adding one Exotic Shard node isn't enough, add 3 "Damage Increase" nodes to reflect the higher damage cap. But COMPLETELY resetting the whole skill tree? ::HEADDESK::

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If adding one Exotic Shard node isn't enough, add 3 "Damage Increase" nodes to reflect the higher damage cap. But COMPLETELY resetting the whole skill tree? ::HEADDESK::

I had the exact same thought also (again in the same conversation with a teammate). Clear out the last 3 damage increases, or perhaps apply a scaled amount of exp to those last 3 damage increases.

If I've had the same two different (but similar) thoughts about this as you & Revenant then I'm sure Bungie did. What did they find so distasteful about these solutions?

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That's BEYOND overkill!

If adding one Exotic Shard node isn't enough, add 3 "Damage Increase" nodes to reflect the higher damage cap. But COMPLETELY resetting the whole skill tree? ::HEADDESK::

I am glad I haven't spent any exotic shards upgrading my Exotics yet. At least now I know to wait. Still, this should have been in the patch notes so folks didn't waste shards getting their exotics to 300 only to have to use another two to get it to the new max.

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hmmmmmmm.

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It reminded me more of this episode, but mine is definitely not safe for work.

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Stand by for DeeJ

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Gets some coffee.

Rolls into work.

Opens up r/destinythegame.

"Ah goddamnit, what the hell's going on."

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I'm really pumped for some Titanfall tonight.

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Will be interesting to see how much of it turns out to be misinformation.

I was torn on the initial (possibly incorrect, we'll see) info. On the one hand, I was sort of glad that Destiny wasn't going to TOTALLY throw us under the bus the way Borderlands did, where once the level cap increased all your old gear became completely useless. In that game, you had to go re-obtain all your gear, just to basically get to where you were before. On the other hand, having to level things up all the way again, in addition to having to grind a bunch of mats just to have the privilege of doing so, would still be annoying.

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Makes you wonder why Bungie doesn't require a chance to read over the article before it's published to correct any factual mistakes like this. It would stop any undue confusion and frustration before it starts and maintain the reputation of the reviewing site as one that gets the details right.

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"Game Informer got it straight. Player reactions to some of the information is what is wrong."
https://twitter.com/DeeJ_BNG/status/540227884636315648

Oh noes!

So... uhh, wha? Are we just misunderstanding something here?

Edit: added quote.

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"Game Informer got it straight. Player reactions to some of the information is what is wrong."

I have to hand it to him, that is some next level trolling.

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So... uhh, wha? Are we just misunderstanding something here?

The only thing I can think of is this bit:

"It’s important to note that this process resets the upgrades on your exotic item, but you’ll now have a new higher damage or defense cap to work towards – so you’ll need to decide if you’d rather keep your fully upgraded old version of a weapon or armor piece, or start over."

It might be that this part was intended to communicate that the process simply de-selects the upgrades (turns them green again) rather than actually setting the XP back to 0. If that were the case, GI would technically be correct (maybe), just very badly worded.

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So... uhh, wha? Are we just misunderstanding something here?

The only thing I can think of is this bit:

"It’s important to note that this process resets the upgrades on your exotic item, but you’ll now have a new higher damage or defense cap to work towards – so you’ll need to decide if you’d rather keep your fully upgraded old version of a weapon or armor piece, or start over."

It might be that this part was intended to communicate that the process simply de-selects the upgrades (turns them green again) rather than actually setting the XP back to 0. If that were the case, GI would technically be correct (maybe), just very badly worded.

the word "start over" doesn't insinuate that. maybe that is what they meant, but to me "start over" means "start over".

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http://www.bungie.net/7_The-Dark-Below-Preview/en/News/News?aid=12442

>New Exotic Upgrading Exotic Gear in The Dark Below will have higher Attack and Defense values than current Exotic Gear. For players and their current caches of Exotics, a path will exist to bring them forward into The Dark Below.

Starting December 9th, Xûr will offer players the opportunity to upgrade Exotics to the higher Attack and Defense values Upgrading an Exotic in this way will require an Exotic Shard The upgrade will reset the progression invested into the item Each week, Xûr will possess a selection of upgrades for existing Exotics in his inventory

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So... uhh, wha? Are we just misunderstanding something here?

The only thing I can think of is this bit:

"It’s important to note that this process resets the upgrades on your exotic item, but you’ll now have a new higher damage or defense cap to work towards – so you’ll need to decide if you’d rather keep your fully upgraded old version of a weapon or armor piece, or start over."

It might be that this part was intended to communicate that the process simply de-selects the upgrades (turns them green again) rather than actually setting the XP back to 0. If that were the case, GI would technically be correct (maybe), just very badly worded.

the word "start over" doesn't insinuate that. maybe that is what they meant, but to me "start over" means "start over".

In the context of my original theory, it could have meant "start over with picking upgrades" rather than "start over with earning experience." Does that clarify it? It seemed feasible to me that someone who didn't put a lot of time into Destiny might not have been aware that you're always able to change upgrades. Such a person might have seen an upgrade reset that kept XP as "starting over."

Of course, other info that's been posted since I wrote that has proven my theory disappointingly wrong. :(

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So... uhh, wha? Are we just misunderstanding something here?

The only thing I can think of is this bit:

"It’s important to note that this process resets the upgrades on your exotic item, but you’ll now have a new higher damage or defense cap to work towards – so you’ll need to decide if you’d rather keep your fully upgraded old version of a weapon or armor piece, or start over."

It might be that this part was intended to communicate that the process simply de-selects the upgrades (turns them green again) rather than actually setting the XP back to 0. If that were the case, GI would technically be correct (maybe), just very badly worded.

Speculation is that the upgrade perks get reset, but the base-level damage of the weapon does not.

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hahahahahhaha

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hahahahahhaha

Honest to God, that's one of the greatest lines I've ever seen. WP DeeJ.

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Poor choice of words, friends. Sorry.

I'm seeing a lot of fear and misinformation coming out the reporting. When I said "wrong" I meant "inaccurate."

Hoping that those of you who know me can attest to the fact that I defend the players' opinions every day.

Moving right along...

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Fair enough. Twitter isn't the best medium for communication imo.

That being said I assume the exotic leveling system is getting some internal attention?

Or at least the reaction to it.

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I'm seeing a lot of fear and misinformation coming out the reporting. When I said "wrong" I meant "inaccurate."

How can my reaction be what's inaccurate?

It would be great if tomorrow Bungie clarified all of this in the weekly update. It would be nice to know if I should hang on to my exotic shards to max out MIDA and Hard Light, or wait till the DLC.

I still do not understand why you guys use gaming magazines to disseminate important information when you have a direct link to your fans via your website and forums. The magazines care about selling copies, not about getting your word out accurately.

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Poor choice of words, friends. Sorry.

I'm seeing a lot of fear and misinformation coming out the reporting. When I said "wrong" I meant "inaccurate."

Hoping that those of you who know me can attest to the fact that I defend the players' opinions every day.

Moving right along...

I'm loving the game Deej, warts and all. Thanks man and let the rest of the team know they have a satisfied customer.

- M

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Poor choice of words, friends. Sorry.

I'm seeing a lot of fear and misinformation coming out the reporting. When I said "wrong" I meant "inaccurate."

Hoping that those of you who know me can attest to the fact that I defend the players' opinions every day.

Moving right along...

I'm loving the game Deej, warts and all. Thanks man and let the rest of the team know they have a satisfied customer.

- M

Interesting you react this way, when it's just been revealed the game design for the expansion is openly hostile to players, and to fun.

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Funny, I read that I'd be able to keep my weapons current and that many changes have been made to enhance the experience, like better loot drop generation.

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Funny, I read that I'd be able to keep my weapons current and that many changes have been made to enhance the experience, like better loot drop generation.

One step forward, one step back.

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Poor choice of words, friends. Sorry.

I'm seeing a lot of fear and misinformation coming out the reporting. When I said "wrong" I meant "inaccurate."

Hoping that those of you who know me can attest to the fact that I defend the players' opinions every day.

Moving right along...

I'm loving the game Deej, warts and all. Thanks man and let the rest of the team know they have a satisfied customer.

- M

Interesting you react this way, when it's just been revealed the game design for the expansion is openly hostile to players, and to fun.

I regret getting sucked into your vortex, but just how the fuck is this 'interesting'? Unlike the rest of you with your agendas and soapboxes, I'm having so much damn fun with the game and playing with my buddies, etc. I'm expressing that to Deej. That's it.

Please do your best in your reply to me at avoiding any real conversation, as is your wont.

- M

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Unlike the rest of you with your agendas and soapboxes, I'm having so much damn fun with the game and playing with my buddies, etc. I'm expressing that to Deej. That's it.

If that were your complete intent, you would have started a new thread. Your post was meant to be a counterpoint to all the bitching. You had an agenda too.

I am glad you are having fun. I am / was too.

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Unlike the rest of you with your agendas and soapboxes, I'm having so much damn fun with the game and playing with my buddies, etc. I'm expressing that to Deej. That's it.

If that were your complete intent, you would have started a new thread. Your post was meant to be a counterpoint to all the bitching. You had an agenda too.

I am glad you are having fun. I am / was too.

Your original reply was rude, but now please don't put words in other people's mouths or tell people how they should post on the forum.

This is forum manners 101, guys!

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Unlike the rest of you with your agendas and soapboxes, I'm having so much damn fun with the game and playing with my buddies, etc. I'm expressing that to Deej. That's it.

If that were your complete intent, you would have started a new thread. Your post was meant to be a counterpoint to all the bitching. You had an agenda too.

Please. How thin is the air way up there? Deej posted a reply, and he barely responds to me here, so I figure I'd get a better shot at having him read my post if I replied to one of his. That's some agenda on my part.

Take your psych 101 elsewhere.

- m

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It's actually the most honest communication from Bungie yet. You insulting us directly is a perfect complement to the insults Bungie has been throwing at us since before the game's release.

From my perspective, this latest change throws away all the time and effort I've put into upgrading my exotic equipment. Bungie is building a game only they have the time play. It must require at least 20 hours a week just to stay current. 20 hours playing the same missions, 20 hours doing the same bounties. It's not fun, and it's not a good game - it's a job. At least it pays well in exotic... oh.

Of course, I must just be reacting "inaccurately".

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Are upset players vandalizing and looting Gamestops or something? Geez Louise!

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Eff Off Bungie!

I sharded a couple of extra exotics to fully level my 2nd Icebreaker and 2nd Suros yesterday. Now I will have to start completely over? why couldn't they tell us this information all at once so I'm not wasting ascendant energy one day, then an exotic shard (from exotic weapons) the next day, then waste all of the effort I just spent leveling these weapons.

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was cody right?

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was cody right?

This assumes the question: is Destiny fun?

There's no real way to be right or wrong about this, because the Cody side of the argument and the Leviathan/Raga side of this argument aren't really approaching the question from the same side.

Cody has looked to tackle the issue of investment the same way he would a skinner box. That's a legitimate concern. Bungie never approached games this way until Halo 3, and subsequently, Reach and now Destiny. Prior to that, most of the achievements I can recall were fan driven: vidmasters and such. Bungie's choice to approach Destiny as a full on investment/RNG machine has been an irritant to a lot of people that approached their earlier games from a challenge and skill perspective. I can agree there; I played Halo over and over because it was hard. All I got from it was the knowledge that I was good at it and could beat my friends in deathmatch. That's what's fun to some people who approach gaming, and so the investment system is an impediment, and possibly a detriment, to that attitude.

Raga and Leviathan would argue, I think, that the gameplay of Destiny is the point, and you shouldn't get wrapped up in completionism. To this line of thought, the skinner box is actually a sandbox, and if you enjoy playing in it, then play in it! If you don't like that sometimes sand gets kicked in your eyes, don't play in it! Investment and 100% completion aren't the point, and if you aren't having fun, you should play something that is fun.

I think the problem for Cody's crowd is that 100% completion IS fun. For a lot of people, that means mastery. And 100% completion should be difficult enough to engage the highest level of skill. That's why a flawless raider run is impressive. Doing so is fun. And things that prevent it from occurring (i.e. glitches, mindless grinds) are anti-fun. Raga might argue that he doesn't notice the grind and can let the experience come to him.

Crazy thing is, both of these positions can be right! Which is why despite Raga's persistent calls for the haters to leave, they won't. Because they don't hate the game. They hate the anti-fun stuff that's getting in the way of unlocking the biggest challenges. Raga might not really be concerned with the biggest challenges. That's why he's less offended by all this, and why he isn't necessarily wrong when he says what he says. He's just not right for everybody.

This is obviously summation for people whose opinions I don't share. But it is indicative of the problem (edit: "problem" is not the right word. work with me here) you see in this forum: the echo chamber. We'll have this debate endlessly. I honestly find it more entertaining than the game at this point. I just burned up a lunch hour writing it. Let's all try to recognize the echo chamber. I would argue it's also fun. It shows the real investment.

And DeeJ, if you stuck around, please. Remember we invest a lot in this. It's our freetime. We value it.

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This is obviously summation for people whose opinions I don't share. But it is indicative of the problem (edit: "problem" is not the right word. work with me here) you see in this forum: the echo chamber. We'll have this debate endlessly. I honestly find it more entertaining than the game at this point. I just burned up a lunch hour writing it. Let's all try to recognize the echo chamber. I would argue it's also fun. It shows the real investment.

I wish I could share that enthusiasm for the debate and fun in the forum, but I usually have a very opposite reaction to these echoes.

It's not the opinions or the side that are the problem with the debate for me. It's some of the voices. It's the condescending and elitist attitudes, no matter what they're arguing for. It's the threatening or pretentious tones. Snide remarks and self-importance. I've been rude too at times, but it's usually because I feel like I've been offended by these kinds of things. Obviously the Internet is rampant with these kinds of voices, but I continue to hope Bungie.Org can be better than that average.

It's certainly not everyone here, or even a majority, but those that derail the debates with these styles of inciting communication are loud and active, and thus they drive me to ignoring them so that I can still have some fun on this board or stay enthused with news-posting. I try to assume they don't intend these negative affects, but their consistency makes that hard to believe.

It's a weird, depressing feeling - either I try to take part in the forum and feel like everyone hates every bit of news I post, or I post the news, don't look at the forum, and hope the silent readers are still interested. I mean, I see a lot of people playing Destiny when I get online, but I wouldn't get that impression from reading this forum.

Perhaps I feel the negatives more because I helped start the site and have been trying to keep the frontpage healthy the last few months. Some sense of parentage, stress, pressure or something. I think I might have had the first post on the board so yes, there was some pride in it. But I don't know how to keep it inviting. I could try to moderate more, but I've tried to maintain the more 'free' approach of Bungie.Org forums, i.e. letting people resolve the problems themselves.

It just bums me out. I often get urges to make fanart or perhaps work on a Destiny comic, but I don't feel like I have a community audience interested in bouncing those things off of like I did with HBO before the Great Schism after Reach. Whenever I try to tackle the forum I feel like hanging up my admin hat altogether, instead.

I don't know. I just wish people would relax, be patient, light-hearted, and especially be civil to each other, whatever their opinion.

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But as you are a moderator, I can understand that things feel different from your position.

And while I like to see people charged up and passionate about things, nobody needs a flame war. This forum is actually quite healthy I think, and generally I find it quite devoid of flame wars. Passionate people, yeah, but generally friendly, and always fun to play the game with. Compared to some places, this is paradise.

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And while I like to see people charged up and passionate about things, nobody needs a flame war. This forum is actually quite healthy I think, and generally I find it quite devoid of flame wars. Passionate people, yeah, but generally friendly, and always fun to play the game with. Compared to some places, this is paradise.

I'd like to >ahem< echo banana's feelings. As someone who participated in the HBO forum pre-Microsoft-acquisition and lurked up thru halo 3 (and a little into reach) I feel like this is a pretty dang great place, really quite healthy & friendly. It's a nice place to be (especially for me; with the smaller numbers on DBO I feel I can actually participate again; it feels like the BBS I used to run decades ago).

Although I will say I do tire a little of the investment debate that has a way of resurfacing, but it seems to legitimately factor into some of the things being discussed (such as the exotic upgrade path). It's all good just as long as peeps keep a cool head about it & don't flame/resort to personal attacks, yeah?

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It's nice to hear the kind words about the forum.

I know it's a lot better than many places on the Internet (I successfully kicked my Reddit habit earlier this year). And I'm sure my perspective does change things quite a bit compared to my view on HBO. Instead of just ignoring or laughing at Cody Miller's insulting and condemning tones, it now turns into a pressure and an anxiety. I feel responsibility for the forum, so I have a hard time letting it go and I've run out of ways to politely tell him and a few others to play nice. I probably miss a lot of the cooler heads in between because those loud voices grab my attention and upset my reading every few minutes.

I might even agree with with a lot of the issues in the game design that some of these folks continually bring up (and obviously Bungie does too, as they're constantly changing things and accommodating for player reactions) but due to some posters' blanket vilification of Bungie and people who enjoy the game, writing as if they are Charleston Heston in a world gone mad, their contribution is lost to me in their hyperbole.

It doesn't help that I feel like every year I get older the less I can put up with crap, hah. :)

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Instead of just ignoring or laughing at Cody Miller's insulting and condemning tones, it now turns into a pressure and an anxiety. I feel responsibility for the forum, so I have a hard time letting it go and I've run out of ways to politely tell him and a few others to play nice.

I'm pretty sure I make a lot of positive contributions here, and generally a lot of my posts are about fun things in this game. I'm sorry you feel pressure when it comes to me, but I'm not going to change just because of that. This is part of the job as a moderator man. Do I add more than I take away? If not, then you have the power to get rid of me.

I may have said some things that were not appropriate or encouraging to you in the past, and if that stuff really affected you in such a negative way then I am extra sorry.

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Instead of just ignoring or laughing at Cody Miller's insulting and condemning tones, it now turns into a pressure and an anxiety. I feel responsibility for the forum, so I have a hard time letting it go and I've run out of ways to politely tell him and a few others to play nice.

I'm pretty sure I make a lot of positive contributions here, and generally a lot of my posts are about fun things in this game. I'm sorry you feel pressure when it comes to me, but I'm not going to change just because of that. This is part of the job as a moderator man. Do I add more than I take away? If not, then you have the power to get rid of me.

I may have said some things that were not appropriate or encouraging to you in the past, and if that stuff really affected you in such a negative way then I am extra sorry.

I appreciate the apology. After all the years of reading your words and debating with you, it's really hard to keep an open mind to your posts. You've conditioned my brain to tag you as an antagonist, but I have a theory that in real life you're probably a really nice guy. Here on the boards though, and from a moderator perspective, you straddle the line between insightful and inciting, which is probably where the stress comes in. If you were a complete jerk I could ban you and it'd be easy, stress-free. :)

I admit every once in a while I see some clearly positive things from you, but it truly does feel rare or wrapped in a snide remark like it's a blessing you still play the game. For example, moments ago you wrote:

Interesting you react this way, when it's just been revealed the game design for the expansion is openly hostile to players, and to fun.

Do you see how that can come off as insulting? You take somebody's positive comment, make it seem like it's surprising they actually like something, and then say, as if it's some decree set down, that the game is "hostile... to fun." That's just so ridiculous and absurd... I don't even know how to respond to it! That's not a critique - that's troll language. That's the start of a flame. It does not lead to pleasant conversation. It either starts hostile arguments or drives people away.

That's not fun to read, in my moderator role, or in my role as a forum user.

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I think the problem for Cody's crowd is that 100% completion IS fun.

Crazy thing is, both of these positions can be right! Which is why despite Raga's persistent calls for the haters to leave, they won't. Because they don't hate the game. They hate the anti-fun stuff that's getting in the way of unlocking the biggest challenges. Raga might not really be concerned with the biggest challenges. That's why he's less offended by all this, and why he isn't necessarily wrong when he says what he says. He's just not right for everybody.

This is correct. I don't give a shit about 100% completion if doing so is not fun. Getting weapons and armor and leveling them up is but a means to enjoy the hard stuff. That's sad, because these elements can not just be chores to be done in order to play what's fun, but can be fun in and of themselves. Many games have done this, so the fact that Bungie chooses not to make that so just illustrates they don't actually care about making the best game possible.

If they did, they'd hire Luke as mission designer for all the story missions, and give Tyson the boot as investment designer.

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And DeeJ, if you stuck around, please. Remember we invest a lot in this. It's our freetime. We value it.

Does this sound kind of backwards to anyone else? I mean, I value my free time too, but it sounds like you take it very seriously, which to me mostly runs counter to the point of free time. I don't play Destiny to rank up, I play Destiny to shoot things and stab things. I do want upgrades, and I do put some conscious effort into them, that does affect my play style, but mostly I do bounties or go to whatever has extra XP that day because I don't have anything better to do, so I might as well go with the game's suggestion. It's the same reason I did challenges in Reach and Halo 4 even after I'd unlocked everything (or almost everything) I wanted. I get that in the same way that some people find it very hard to "turn their brain off" to enjoy a dumb action movie, some people are drawn to goals and adopt them without prodding, and then feel an understandable stress when they have difficulty reaching them. I have some of that myself, I had to cultivate that to make it through school and college, so I'd say it's a healthy thing. I think, though, that making the effort to ignore the feeling that you should be doing or accomplishing more is worth it when it comes to video games and indeed most hobbies. If you can't do that, if you can't get to where you're just enjoying it in the moment, I don't think Destiny (or possibly RPGs in general) is going to give you as much enjoyment as other games-- which is fine.

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And DeeJ, if you stuck around, please. Remember we invest a lot in this. It's our freetime. We value it.

If you can't do that, if you can't get to where you're just enjoying it in the moment, I don't think Destiny (or possibly RPGs in general) is going to give you as much enjoyment as other games-- which is fine.

I think this is Raga's point with the game in general, but not the point I was making to DeeJ. To DeeJ I was attempting to say, 'Please convey to your co-workers that we choose to play because the game is fun, and that when we all come crying to the forum about this exotic stuff, it's because it isn't fun.' Make sense?

Edit: Oops! That was a half thought. Before the Make sense? part:

And after all the isn't fun piles up, you may find we've decided to spend our time doing something else.

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Good post. It's nice to see someone is really paying attention. :)

You're right, I take a less "got to have it now" attitude to Destiny. Cody Miller did the raid day one hour one, for instance, where I didn't even have a character that could attempt the Vault of Glass until weeks later. Even then I didn't run my first raid for another few weeks. Similarly, in this thread, I'm not all that put off about these changes because the way I see it I will obtain all the needed materials by doing what I was going to do anyway. And yes, I'd rather people have fun and not complain about not having fun. That doesn't meam I want people to leave. It's only half the reason I enter into the debates. Leviathan has the other half when he said:

It's not the opinions or the side that are the problem with the debate for me. It's some of the voices. It's the condescending and elitist attitudes, no matter what they're arguing for. It's the threatening or pretentious tones. Snide remarks and self-importance. I've been rude too at times, but it's usually because I feel like I've been offended by these kinds of things. Obviously the Internet is rampant with these kinds of voices, but I continue to hope Bungie.Org can be better than that average.

Where he withdraws I engage. I strongly dislike rudeness, vulgarity, condescension, and people who look for the negatives while ignoring the positives and I say so. Was Cody right, to use the easy example? Sure! To an extent. But did he get there the right way? Often he did not. Keeping it to this thread, were these changes worth the name calling and overreaction? I don't think so which is the main reason why I spoke up. My belife that it'll all work out was secondary.

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You're right, I take a less "got to have it now" attitude to Destiny. Cody Miller did the raid day one hour one, for instance

There are benefits to that beyond simply "got to have it now". Doing it that way meant that there was no possible way to be spoiled, or to have a team member be spoiled. Figuring out the Vault of Glass from scratch on our own was mega fun. Being able to work at it for 6 hours straight was fun. The chances of finding 5 others weeks later who are completely in the dark and can devote that time gets slimmer as time goes on.

With single player games it is easy, but with these types of games other people might not stay spoiler free for you.

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Fortunately, I don't care about spoilers. My view is I'll watch a movie twenty or thirty times during my life but will only see it unspoiled once. Why should I put so much emphasis on that one time when I don't even know if I'm going to like what I see? Really, I go even further in that I tend to like things better the second time. I know what to look for, what to look at I didn't look at the first time, can watch the performances or understand the quick references that were well built but flew over my head as I tried to take in 30 images a second for a couple of hours.

Games are the same way. First raid was great. Second was even better.

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Games are the same way. First raid was great. Second was even better.

I think they are different, in the sense that watching a film isn't a challenge. Being presented with the raid, having no clue what to do, what weapons to use, or what strategy to deploy, makes for an amazingly fun time of working it out that exists only if you are unspoiled.

This is why Flawless raider was fun: we were once again working out ourselves the best way to do things and figuring it out.

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I sharded a couple of extra exotics to fully level my 2nd Icebreaker and 2nd Suros yesterday. Now I will have to start completely over? why couldn't they tell us this information all at once so I'm not wasting ascendant energy one day, then an exotic shard (from exotic weapons) the next day, then waste all of the effort I just spent leveling these weapons.

Jeez I hadn't even thought of that. I bet a lot of people just wasted a couple Shards with the understanding that their use would never be revoked.
Think Bungie will have the reset process give you back a Shard?

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Or is the appropriate reaction really to call people idiots, and sadists? Imagine if they'd done something really bad like announcing a subscription fee. There'd be full on completely serious death threats at this rate! I'd like to think DBO is better than these type of overreactions. Guess not. :/

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Unless I'm misinterpreting what he's saying, that's a pretty douchey response. Why be disrespectful by saying "players reactions . . . are wrong"? Our reactions reflect our emotions on what we interpret Bungie's decision to play. If we interpret it wrong, say that. Don't tell us the way we are reacting is somehow objectively incorrect.

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Something Deej tweeted a little earlier:

"I fully intend to make fun of myself for this [the earlier tweet] in the Bungie Weekly Update. Gather the tomatoes." --@Deej_BNG

I know it was wasn't the best wording, but I still find that first tweet hilarious. :)

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Given the fact that A) we can now purchase destination materials (Spinmetal, etc.), and B) exotics do not require any Ascendant materials, the upgrade path is ridiculously streamlined. I'm not sure what the big hang up is. All this does is require that we make a conscious, committed decision to upgrade our gear.

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Given the fact that A) we can now purchase destination materials (Spinmetal, etc.), and B) exotics do not require any Ascendant materials, the upgrade path is ridiculously streamlined. I'm not sure what the big hang up is. All this does is require that we make a conscious, committed decision to upgrade our gear.

I think most people are just irritated that their previous work is being discarded (self included).

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Exotics take a shitton of xp also

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Exotics take a shitton of xp also

It sounded like that would be reduced so they'd upgrade faster. No word on how fast though. We just don't know.

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Given the fact that A) we can now purchase destination materials (Spinmetal, etc.), and B) exotics do not require any Ascendant materials, the upgrade path is ridiculously streamlined. I'm not sure what the big hang up is. All this does is require that we make a conscious, committed decision to upgrade our gear.

well, it will cost you 7 strange coins (1 exotic shard) and 7,000 glimmer to buy the upgrade. Then it will cost you glimmer to get all the upgrade stages, and finally 7 more strange coins (exotic shard) to finish it off.

So each exotic you have will cost you 14 strange coins to upgrade. This severely eats into your ability to buy new items from Xur. It also eats into your glimmer. I mostly used glimmer for upgrades and heavy ammo synth. Under the best circumstances, you could get about 10,000 glimmer per hour farming, which is boring as hell, but faster than what you get through normal gameplay. But if xur has your upgrades on any particular weekend, you better get them, b/c you don't know when they'll come back around.

If you ran 3 characters through the weekly heroic you would get 27 strange coins, 1 short of what you need to fully upgrade two exotics. You will most likely get another here and there through engrams, but not many. So you could afford to fully upgrade 2 exotics a week (or buy resets for 2 a week, and upgrade them later).

It's just more unnecessary grinding. I would prefer that they add a couple more damage tiers that take a long time to complete, and leave all my unlocked perks alone.

I will probably upgrade the exotics that i have not started on yet, and worry about my maxed out ones later. Maybe i'll get some duplicates through drops, and then a can start sharding exotics for upgrades.

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Given the fact that A) we can now purchase destination materials (Spinmetal, etc.), and B) exotics do not require any Ascendant materials, the upgrade path is ridiculously streamlined. I'm not sure what the big hang up is. All this does is require that we make a conscious, committed decision to upgrade our gear.

As much as I'm also against it being a big thing, per se, getting enough XP to upgrade an exotic or a legendary takes a long time, it's an order of magnitude above rares (which can take a while already). I couldn't tell you how many bounties I've poured into The Calling and how many patrol missions I've done with it, and it isn't even exotic, just legendary, and I only recently (after at least five weeks) got to the damage upgrade before the last run of three.

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All this does is require that we make a conscious, committed decision to upgrade our gear.

I have a feeling this is the reason they are doing it, but I do think they could improve it at least a minimal amount. But then again I haven't played the new content yet, we'll see how much faster they upgrade next week (if they don't make changes before then).

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This is good:

Perhaps most importantly, the loot raid drops for Crota’s End have been refined from what we experienced in the Vault of Glass. Specifically, the game will pay closer attention to the drops you’ve already had, as well as how long it’s been since you get a “fun” drop (as opposed to just materials). While there’s still a significant component of randomness, Bungie strongly implied to me that players should have a more consistent reward experience with the raid than what has been experienced in Vault of Glass when the Crota’s End raid launches on day one of the expansion.

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Yes, I am very happy about this. How about they apply the same fix to the Vault of Glass? I'm sad that the VoG will for all intents & purposes be dead. I still really enjoy running through it.

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I'm hopeful it's a general reward logic change and not Dark Below specific.

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VoG will still be the best source of ascentent materials so it will live on for legendary items.

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This is good:

Perhaps most importantly, the loot raid drops for Crota’s End have been refined from what we experienced in the Vault of Glass. Specifically, the game will pay closer attention to the drops you’ve already had, as well as how long it’s been since you get a “fun” drop (as opposed to just materials). While there’s still a significant component of randomness, Bungie strongly implied to me that players should have a more consistent reward experience with the raid than what has been experienced in Vault of Glass when the Crota’s End raid launches on day one of the expansion.

It's BETTER. But still not GOOD. Good is having stuff given to you without RNG - that is each item can be acquired by doing a certain mission, or a certain mission a certain way, etc. Everything should have a specific path to acquisition.

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It's BETTER. But still not GOOD. Good is having stuff given to you without RNG - that is each item can be acquired by doing a certain mission, or a certain mission a certain way, etc. Everything should have a specific path to acquisition.

Halo 3 did it best. (Even if I never did get that Overkill achievement)

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It is interesting in that:

Current level 20 gear and weapons will no longer be offered under the old model where you could get 1-2 a week just by playing dailies and the weekly.

Current gear will no longer be offered.

Now you need to perform bounties to level up faction rep in order to get access to gear.

I wonder if Bungie was concerned that without the carrot of gathering materials people wouldn't feel the need to visit the PVE portions of the game? They understood people didn't like the material farming, and so made them easier to get, but removed the materials to rep/marks and now are making bounties more important in order to keep people visiting PVE content.

With the new bounties offering materials, if they left in the mat/marks exchange then you could double dip off the bounties. If they left the current gear in, and the new legendary gear was added on top, then you have essentialy demoted the current gear to a "blue+" level.

I would have preferred them to offer an upgrade path for current legendary gear to the 20+ level. I spent lots of time and effort to get those IB weapons upgraded and randomized to the perks I wanted, and now a few weeks later they are going to be essentially worthless. Same for the only raid weapon that has ever dropped for me, the Vision and my one really good rep drop of a Zombie Apoc with the stability and ammo drop upgrades.

On the plus side it looks like they are addressing some of the loot complaints for the Crota raid. I hope they could retroactively add that to the Vault as well. I really don't want my fourth set of boots the next time I run it.

I did quit playing World of Tanks because the investment into each tank was enormous and the Dev's had an endless cycle of ruin/buff that picked new winners and losers every month. New content inevitably was superior in every way and only those who dropped hours or large amounts of cash ever really could respond.

Bungie hasn't gotten to this level yet, but we are veering that way. If we are going to design a game around players getting gear tailored to how they want to play, Bungie needs to let players get that gear and keep it. If Bungie really wants to go this route they should add IB style perk rerolls for weapons parts/armor materials on blue/legendary equipment to help soak up the those mats and allow players better access to the perks they want and offer an upgrade path for current legendary gear to the 20+ level.

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This just popped up on my G+ feed; unrelated to Destiny in itself, but hilarious awesome timing for what I was reading. :)

Post was titled: "The Daily Grind"

[image]

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The amusing thing is this machine should only work for one rotation...

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this machine should only work for one rotation...

How so?

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this machine should only work for one rotation...

How so?

the lead and eraser would get worn down. you would need a device that would move the pencil closer with each rotation, but then you would still run out of lead eventually.

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...our Patience and Time: being worn down and used up.... ;)

this machine should only work for one rotation...

How so?

the lead and eraser would get worn down. you would need a device that would move the pencil closer with each rotation, but then you would still run out of lead eventually.

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That pun was most excellent and yet groan worthy. Way to bring a little sadistic joy to this. Very well done :) +1

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the lead and eraser would get worn down. you would need a device that would move the pencil closer with each rotation, but then you would still run out of lead eventually.

Assuming it worked at all, it's unlikely that that would be a one-cycle issue, though. Real-world devices are a bit squishy.

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[image]

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"I don't have time to explain, why I don't have time to re-level all my gear."

From Ender1984

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What a horrible place that is. I love you guys. You are the anti-bungie.net.

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…and we'll have to do it again in February when we have to upgrade everything again in House of Wolves. It will be worse because there will be more exotics to upgrade - our originals, and the Dark below Exotics.

Just let us play the fucking game Bungie. Stop with the bullshit. Was this Tyson's idea? Get rid of him already. His investment systems suck.

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Do I put Destiny down for good now?

I am already holding off getting the Dark Below to see if the story improves which will likely mean that I won't be able to advance in level to where most people are. The Exotics are changing so that we have to redo their upgrade tree in order for them to remain relevant. Basically, it looks like if I "get behind" progression wise then I will have a huge amount of work to get back to the way I like the play the game.

So should I let Destiny go on its way now? Keeping up will mean buying every expansion (as is the formula) and I'm not really willing to do that in less they improve in specific ways. Buying the expansions soley to level myself up is not something I find fun.

It kind of looks like the choice is soon. Get in with the DLC train or keep my game where it is now. I don't know.

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But we don't have to upgrade anything if we don't want to. We'll get new, better guns and armor. This upgrade path just gives us the option to bring some of our favorite gear up the ladder as we progress.
If all our existing gear is made as good as the new stuff, then why bother with a level increase at all?

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If all our existing gear is made as good as the new stuff, then why bother with a level increase at all?

Precisely the problem with releasing the game in chunks :-)

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Depends on what you want from the game. If you're a completionist, then Destiny is a living hell (;p). Personally, I'm looking forward to getting new gear that allows me to tackle tougher challenges. I've enjoyed that experience so far in Destiny, and I'm glad I'll get to do it again.

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But we don't have to upgrade anything if we don't want to.

I was just about to say the same thing. They're not forcing you to upgrade anything, they're not even making current exotics worse, they're just introducing exotics that can be better and giving you a way to make your old exotics just as good. Is that way arduous? Yeah, and it'll sting if you already upgraded them all the way, but it's there, and again, we don't know how relevant a fuller, expanded upgrade will even be.

We'll get new, better guns and armor. This upgrade path just gives us the option to bring some of our favorite gear up the ladder as we progress.
If all our existing gear is made as good as the new stuff, then why bother with a level increase at all?

Funnily enough I was thinking this too. This is the hard truth, or the hard probable truth, behind the nice truth above. "They expect me to just start over?" No, they probably don't expect you to restart and fully upgrade your exotics, they probably expect you to just get new exotics. While we're being honest, most of us were going to anyway, if we kept playing, right? Every time Xur shows up he gets mobbed. I know some people go through exotic bounties like they're toilet paper but a lot of people cherish them and put a lot of effort into completing them because they come in so infrequently and they represent such a unique chance for something better. These things are still happening after 12 weeks.

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It's a great time for us warlocks.

[image]

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So I shouldn't bother upgrading anything this week because better versions will come out next week?

*sigh*

I'll keep Mr. Gjallarhorn in the vault then. :(

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This will not alleviate all issues, but should at least make it sting a little less. All activities except for the Hard Raid will be level 30 at most (based on the database). This is in line with the base game where the highest activity is 28 despite the cap being at 30. So your weapons can still stay effective in every activity until the Hard Raid is released.

I do want a better way then the one they are offering, but at least I don't HAVE to upgrade my weapons for them to be relevant (for now). I think I'll probably use this process to upgrade my non-upgraded repeat exotics for now and keep using my upgraded ones in the meantime.

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Am I the only one who doesn't think this is a big deal?

The expansion comes with new, higher level gear which we'll all be chasing. If anything, I was expecting our current exotics to be permenantly outclassed by the new ones. The fact that they're giving us an upgrade path of any kind is better than I expected, and a step beyond most RPGs.

In the grand scheme of things, how many Exotics do any of us actually use? I have maybe a dozen exotic weapons, only 2 of which I actually use on a regular basis. Those 2 weapons are important enough to me that I will consider upgrading them. I enjoy them enough that raising there damage level is well worth the week or so it will take me to get them ranked up again.

If this was our only path to more powerful weapons, then I'd be upset. But it's not. It's just a way for us to bring our favorites up to par with the new hotness.

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Am I the only one who doesn't think this is a big deal?

Nah, I'm not really upset about it, although I don't think it's a GREAT decision. In the long run I doubt I'll even notice much the 2-3 days I don't have the main perk for my exotics.

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Am I the only one who doesn't think this is a big deal?

Nah, I'm not really upset about it, although I don't think it's a GREAT decision. In the long run I doubt I'll even notice much the 2-3 days I don't have the main perk for my exotics.

Yeah, I don't really see this taking practically any significant time, especially with daily stories and Crucible XP bonuses, which I already do regardless, not to mention Xur's speed-er-upper-things (telemetry, isn't it?).

And since I won't be getting The Dark Below for another month, if that, I won't need to re-upgrade anything for some time.

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I actually had a seemingly unique reaction. To me, this new seems like something that wasn't relevant to me (or most on a forum like this). This seems like news that matters to people who weren't going to buy the expansion but didn't want to stop playing destiny. Now they can take the gear they do have access to and put work into that so that it will be competitive with the gear that came from the expansion they don't have access to. From my perspective, it's actually kind of unexpectedly respectful of Bungie to give this option to people that don't want to pay them more money.

Maybe I'll take the time to upgrade one or two of my favorite exotics but unless I really don't like the gear from the new expansion I don't expect I'll be doing this much.

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So, that talk from a month or so back about Bungie not valuing our time is confirmed? They won't let me progress my Exotic stuff from where it currently is? I just finally for the first time maxed out an exotic weapon after having had it for nearly a month, and now they want me to start again? And I need this weapon maxed to hopefully beat Vault of Glass on Hard, or to actually handle the upcoming Raid more efficiently?

I can't see why I should give them my money to get the ability to increase my armor and weapons for the Raid when they'll just reset it and make it so that I need to take longer to bring in a fully upgraded and effective piece of gear for the Raid. I already can't get level 30 for the life of me because after weeks of Vault of Glass, it won't give me the armor I need ever. So yeah. Sorry, Bungie. Start respecting my time, I'll start giving you money again.

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It's like they base their time investment values on the 40+ hours per week that the playtesters put in, rather than the average amount of time that their players put in.

What percentage of your time playing destiny is "for fun" vs. "because I need to do X grind"? I'm about 50/50. 100% of my solo time is spent grinding right now, which is roughly half of my play time.

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It's like they base their time investment values on the 40+ hours per week that the playtesters put in, rather than the average amount of time that their players put in.

Isn't 40+ hours a week way more than what the average player puts in? Serious question. I've put in something like 130 hours into Destiny. Is that not a lot? :/

What percentage of your time playing destiny is "for fun" vs. "because I need to do X grind"? I'm about 50/50. 100% of my solo time is spent grinding right now, which is roughly half of my play time.

I'd say 90% is for fun? With the other percentage being booting up the game and clicking things? I mean, it's about the same ratio as with any game I'm playing. I guess every once in a while I've grinded something, but it's pretty rare. Reminds me of my old Final Fantasy games. I might have to grind a little towards the end of each one to beat the final boss, but it was sort of fun in itself and was totally worth the rest of the experience.

This isn't meant to sound rude or condescending, but to those of you who are getting frustrated with the grinding - have you tried mixing up what you play? Or taking breaks? It keeps Destiny fun when you go back to it. I mean, there's nothing, even my favorite things in the world, that would hold up to hours of use ever day. :)

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This isn't meant to sound rude or condescending, but to those of you who are getting frustrated with the grinding - have you tried mixing up what you play? Or taking breaks?

More like breaks. The problem with mixing it up is that Bungie didn't really include any really interesting activities, sans the raid. It's worth playing over and over, but not a whole lot else in the game is, crucible excepted.

I'll be leveling my Fatebringer and VoC for the Crota raid… boring stuff that allows me to have fun later.

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This isn't meant to sound rude or condescending, but to those of you who are getting frustrated with the grinding - have you tried mixing up what you play? Or taking breaks?

More like breaks. The problem with mixing it up is that Bungie didn't really include any really interesting activities, sans the raid. It's worth playing over and over, but not a whole lot else in the game is, crucible excepted.

Well I find all the different activities interesting... but when I said mixing it up I meant playing other games.

Maybe a lot of the issues some folks are seeing are simply from overplaying Destiny? I played most of the Halos a ridiculous amount, and continually so for years (and still from time to time). But that was a one-of-a-kind anomaly for me. There are some games I played a few hours a day for a week, loved it, but was satisfied from just that, and never played them again. But I don't feel like they failed me. I put 200 hours into Skyrim over the course of three years, and I loved that game. I'm at 130ish for Destiny after two months. That alone tells me it's a great game, regardless of its flaws.

But I'm not going to keep this rate up, and I don't see that as a bad thing. If I love a movie, I'll watch it a lot at first, but eventually I slow down, spread it out. It's just what happens with... stuff. You got to mix it up. Find the right pace. :)

Maybe I'll have to slow down soon and start to savor Destiny? Maybe this game will become something I do once a week? I consider that a pretty big accomplishment for any game I've already put so much time into.

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Maybe a lot of the issues some folks are seeing are simply from overplaying Destiny?

Yes absolutely. Destiny's problem is that is designed, and encouraged to be overplayed. There is not enough content and challenge to sustain the amount of playtime Bungie wants.

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Maybe a lot of the issues some folks are seeing are simply from overplaying Destiny?

Yes absolutely. Destiny's problem is that is designed, and encouraged to be overplayed. There is not enough content and challenge to sustain the amount of playtime Bungie wants.

Don't know where you deciphered Bungie's hourly playtime expectations of me, nor do I see how that's relevant, but what I'm saying is I think Destiny has already accomplished something by inspiring me to play 100 more hours than most games I finish. Doesn't matter to me what Bungie intended, I can still be impressed and hugely satisfied with that fact, compared to most art and entertainment I pursue. :)

The flipside to that is: might it be unrealistic to be upset that a game isn't as fun after hundreds of hours as when we first started? Isn't it reasonable to not expect anything to provide us with continual glee every day for months and months... except perhaps a romantic partner? And even then... I mean even that doesn't sound very realistic, hah.

Actually... now that I think about it, I've probably spent more time with Destiny than my partner lately... Oops.

I mean, let's say you're right and Bungie shot for the stars. I still got to Mars and that's still pretty freaking cool and I think way better than most games I've tried.

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The flipside to that is: might it be unrealistic to be upset that a game isn't as fun after hundreds of hours as when we first started? Isn't it reasonable to not expect anything to provide us with continual glee every day for months and months... except perhaps a romantic partner? And even then... I mean even that doesn't sound very realistic, hah.

I agree 100%, which is why Bungie's idea of creating a game players will want to play everyday is misguided. You should design your game with zero filler, and put in as much fun as as your budget and schedule allows. Then, however long it lasts is how long it lasts.

I've played wonderful games I've only put 10 hours into (some even less) - games better than Destiny. The Last of Us is a really great game. Top 100 of all time for sure. I won't be playing it everyday, or even going forward except for when I want a nostaglic play through though. Is that a failing? NO. Having a player put down your game after completing / mastering it is not a sign your game is bad! There is nothing wrong with that. As long as the journey is super fun, challenging, and interesting then you've done well.

Further, I would actually argue that the best types of games are the ones you can 'finish'. Open ended games with no explicit complete victory condition like Destiny are at a disadvantage.

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...

I've played wonderful games I've only put 10 hours into (some even less) - games better than Destiny. The Last of Us is a really great game. Top 100 of all time for sure.

Not top 10?

Further, I would actually argue that the best types of games are the ones you can 'finish'. Open ended games with no explicit complete victory condition like Destiny are at a disadvantage.

I hope Destiny does end someday, and I hope it's glorious.

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....does that mean I can't be disappointed in some aspects of this "upgrading" process, and express as much here, honestly?

I've tried to abstain from over exaggerating analogies, but I am a human with emotions, and they occasionally find their way out.

When it comes right down to it, most of us who continue playing into the expansions will undoubtedly be picking up the new-shiny's that come along with said DLC, so this "upgrading" will probably be a small drop in an ever-expanding bucket. What is frustrating in the here and now is the feeling that our current "investments" (the stuff we've earned and poured time into upgrading) in the self same "INVESTMENT SYSTEM" are feeling more and more devalued by the very design of a game with many planned expansions. This probably wouldn't be an issue at all, IF we were all long-time WOW (or other MMO/RPG); but most of us aren't. Most of us are long-time Bungie, aka Halo & Marathon fans (I know there were many others; I'm just picking the more recent and obvious ones). And the game design of those classic Bungie titles was completely devoid of ANY formal "investment system". The player investment system was simply, "hey, this is fun, I'm gonna keep playing!" At least, that was MY take on it.

That's what's really throwing me (and others, I think) for a loop; these new "features" of Destiny just don't "feel" like something from the Bungie we thought we knew. We're missing the simplicity of the "hey, this is fun, I'm gonna play more", because there are SO MANY different options that reward you (temporarily, it seems) for investing in them. It's a bit of a mixed-message to say they want us creating lasting characters in a persistent world, when they take away (temporarily, granted) the very things we have used to DEFINE our characters.

I think I speak for more than myself when I say; I need to stop expecting Destiny to behave like Halo, and I need to stop expecting today's Destiny-making-Bungie to operate like yesteryear's Halo-making-Bungie. They're different beasts, and they need different upbringing.

Also, always remember Bungie's motto; We make games WE want to play.

And now I'm gonna shut up, hit "Submit" and go play some more Destiny!

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If at first you grind, grind again. (Destiny)

Ugh, this is disgusting

Ugh, this is disgusting

A likely possibility.

A little too far, certainly

A little too far, certainly

A little too far, certainly

A little too far, certainly

A little too far, certainly

A little too far, certainly

That would have been better, no doubt.

A little too far, certainly

A little too far, certainly

It doesn't have to be this way!

No kidding

Gen 10 here I come.

Is RNG a thing in Titanfall? You might have your answer.

Is RNG a thing in Titanfall? You might have your answer.

It's the wave of the future dude.

There's smart RNG and then there's Destiny.

There's smart RNG and then there's Destiny.

^ This!

They did something similar with the mythoclast.

They did something similar with the mythoclast.

and you might notice that the new guns are old guns with...

and you might notice that the new guns are old guns with...

It doesn't have to be this way!

It doesn't have to be this way!

It doesn't have to be this way!

It doesn't have to be this way!

It doesn't have to be this way!

It doesn't have to be this way!

It doesn't have to be this way!

What if this became the way to progress with your character?

It doesn't have to be this way!

It doesn't have to be this way!

It doesn't have to be this way!

It doesn't have to be this way!

It doesn't have to be this way!

It doesn't have to be this way!

"your" time is valuable to them

I haven't made a plan to stop playing

I haven't made a plan to stop playing

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

laugh away

laugh away

laugh away

laugh away

laugh away

You guys are now arguing about tones/subtext.

Indeed. :)

You guys are now arguing about tones/subtext.

You guys are now arguing about tones/subtext.

Reach had the best weapons tho.

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

I have never given up on a Bungie game so soon

double fusion bounty 3 times a day for ~3 days a week 4 ever

It doesn't have to be this way!

The gunsmith should do this, not Xur

It doesn't have to be this way!

Ugh, this is disgusting

That's not even the worst part

That's not even the worst part

The thinking is that they want your time, a LOT of your time

The thinking is that they want your time, a LOT of your time

The thinking is that they want your time, a LOT of your time

The thinking is that they want your time, a LOT of your time

The thinking is that they want your time, a LOT of your time