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There shouldn't be any confusion at this point about what Destiny is and will continue to be. Crota's End has been, like the Vault of Glass, a highlight of my gaming career. There are plenty of things in Destiny worth sticking around for, it just seems to come down to how players can minimize the negative impact of Bungie's investment system.

For me, I've enjoyed working on a Titan and Hunter alt and exploring their different abilities, but it seems like the best use of my time is just to delete them and roll two extra Warlocks. It's my favorite class by far and I can triple my rewards and third my gear requirements. Plus I can shard all their Exotics.

Basically, it seems that Destiny is a game about cheese. There is no nobility or reward in taking the long, hard road. Did you know there's a pretty awful Crota cheese already? Once you've beaten the Raid legitimately once, you may as well take advantage of cheeses while they're still available.

I'll miss falling to my death in the Vault of Glass because of Titan's weaksauce jump, and the interesting Hunter perks like Chain of Woe, but I don't have time to explain why I don't have time to find and grind 12 pieces of gear every few months. I want to play this game, but I want to feel like I have an actual chance to complete something before it's made meaningless.

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I want to play this game, but I want to feel like I have an actual chance to complete something before it's made meaningless.

This is why you do not place meaning in the reward for games, but rather the experience of playing. Nobody can take away the fun I had doing the Vault the second it came out, nor doing Crota blind. It doesn't matter what changes occur, the memories of those experiences don't change.

343 could issue a huge patch to Halo that wipes all my progress, and I would lose absolutely nothing as far as I'm concerned. Imagine if your characters got wiped in Destiny? There'd be riots in Bellevue.

The awesomeness in games should be about what you know, not what you have.

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I want to play this game, but I want to feel like I have an actual chance to complete something before it's made meaningless.

This is why you do not place meaning in the reward for games, but rather the experience of playing. Nobody can take away the fun I had doing the Vault the second it came out, nor doing Crota blind. It doesn't matter what changes occur, the memories of those experiences don't change.

343 could issue a huge patch to Halo that wipes all my progress, and I would lose absolutely nothing as far as I'm concerned. Imagine if your characters got wiped in Destiny? There'd be riots in Bellevue.

The awesomeness in games should be about what you know, not what you have.

How you feel about the Raid, I feel about the rest of the game. The player can always decide where the meaning lies, despite whatever the intention of the designer.

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How you feel about the Raid, I feel about the rest of the game. The player can always decide where the meaning lies, despite whatever the intention of the designer.

The problem is, that people were doing things that were not fun in order to level up their stuff, which now doesn't provide a benefit. In a sense I get what you are saying since I hit level 30 relatively early, and got to use my VoG armor for a long time, so in that regard the grind for shards to upgrade it "paid off".

See how you feel when you upgrade your exotics, only to see they have to be upgraded again in House of Wolves. The futility and soul crushing nature of the design is exposed pretty quickly.

You obviously don't see it because you play casually, and don't do much of the hard stuff. I'm telling you that from my perspective, and others like me, it sucks.

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How you feel about the Raid, I feel about the rest of the game. The player can always decide where the meaning lies, despite whatever the intention of the designer.

The problem is, that people were doing things that were not fun in order to level up their stuff, which now doesn't provide a benefit. In a sense I get what you are saying since I hit level 30 relatively early, and got to use my VoG armor for a long time, so in that regard the grind for shards to upgrade it "paid off".

See how you feel when you upgrade your exotics, only to see they have to be upgraded again in House of Wolves. The futility and soul crushing nature of the design is exposed pretty quickly.

You obviously don't see it because you play casually, and don't do much of the hard stuff. I'm telling you that from my perspective, and others like me, it sucks.

I play a few hours every day. I don't consider that 'casual' but whatever, the point was that you don't HAVE to care about the numbers. But I can see if you did, it might be frustrating at times. That's why I focus on having fun.

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I play a few hours every day. I don't consider that 'casual' but whatever, the point was that you don't HAVE to care about the numbers. But I can see if you did, it might be frustrating at times. That's why I focus on having fun.

To an extent you are right. You really only have to focus on the numbers if you want to do the harder activities (in a timely manner. I suppose I could have waited until now to do VoG hard, grind free). But it shouldn't be that way. I shouldn't have to focus on numbers at all, rather just my skill and knowledge of the game.

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How you feel about the Raid, I feel about the rest of the game. The player can always decide where the meaning lies, despite whatever the intention of the designer.

The problem is, that people were doing things that were not fun in order to level up their stuff, which now doesn't provide a benefit. In a sense I get what you are saying since I hit level 30 relatively early, and got to use my VoG armor for a long time, so in that regard the grind for shards to upgrade it "paid off".

See how you feel when you upgrade your exotics, only to see they have to be upgraded again in House of Wolves. The futility and soul crushing nature of the design is exposed pretty quickly.

You obviously don't see it because you play casually, and don't do much of the hard stuff. I'm telling you that from my perspective, and others like me, it sucks.

I have a strong feeling that your not fun things are what he enjoys. But what you said was pretty neat. I haven't seen the "you're just a casual player so you don't know anything" argument in quite a while! :)

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I have a strong feeling that your not fun things are what he enjoys. But what you said was pretty neat. I haven't seen the "you're just a casual player so you don't know anything" argument in quite a while! :)

He doesn't know anything about our complaints. He says so himself. I'm telling him why: "casual" players do not run into these problems.

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what you need to do to progress, and what you want to play for fun in destiny, aren't necessarily the same

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I have a strong feeling that your not fun things are what he enjoys. But what you said was pretty neat. I haven't seen the "you're just a casual player so you don't know anything" argument in quite a while! :)

He doesn't know anything about our complaints. He says so himself. I'm telling him why: "casual" players do not run into these problems.

Yeah... we really need to stop using that casual/hardcore dichotomy.

And I do understand the complaints - you've posted them and over. :) I'm usually just debating that it isn't the case for everyone.

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Yeah I don't think its good to use the terms casual or hardcore.

However Destiny's investment system follows the rule of diminishing returns. I think we should just say past 2 hours a night plus weekends you start seeing significantly diminishing returns on your progress in the games grind.

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Yep. I think we can agree that Bungie did not successfully design Destiny to take over a person's life.

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Yeah I don't think its good to use the terms casual or hardcore.

However Destiny's investment system follows the rule of diminishing returns. I think we should just say past 2 hours a night plus weekends you start seeing significantly diminishing returns on your progress in the games grind.

I doubt Cody means it badly, just words that describe it pretty well. I'd like to see it reclaimed, for what that's worth.

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Yeah I don't think its good to use the terms casual or hardcore.

However Destiny's investment system follows the rule of diminishing returns. I think we should just say past 2 hours a night plus weekends you start seeing significantly diminishing returns on your progress in the games grind.

I doubt Cody means it badly, just words that describe it pretty well. I'd like to see it reclaimed, for what that's worth.

The problem is, those terms don't work together even if you take away the negative connotations attached. You can be casually hardcore or a hardcore casual, etc. I've played Destiny 5 days, 17 hours, spent a week or two painting/drawing Destiny, and posted daily news on a fansite about Destiny and scanned its forum everyday. And I'm 'casual' compared to another.

These are inadequate blanket terms that generalize and diminish the vast, possibly infinite, approaches to enjoying video games (or anything else).

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Yeah I don't think its good to use the terms casual or hardcore.

However Destiny's investment system follows the rule of diminishing returns. I think we should just say past 2 hours a night plus weekends you start seeing significantly diminishing returns on your progress in the games grind.

I doubt Cody means it badly, just words that describe it pretty well. I'd like to see it reclaimed, for what that's worth.

The problem is, those terms don't work together even if you take away the negative connotations attached. You can be casually hardcore or a hardcore casual, etc. I've played Destiny 5 days, 17 hours, spent a week or two painting/drawing Destiny, and posted daily news on a fansite about Destiny and scanned its forum everyday. And I'm 'casual' compared to another.

These are inadequate blanket terms that generalize and diminish the vast, possibly infinite, approaches to enjoying video games (or anything else).

Hmm, I see your point and agree. We need better terms.

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These are inadequate blanket terms that generalize and diminish the vast, possibly infinite, approaches to enjoying video games (or anything else).

That's why I put "casual" in quotes.

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These are inadequate blanket terms that generalize and diminish the vast, possibly infinite, approaches to enjoying video games (or anything else).

That's why I put "casual" in quotes.

I know! I didn't share Raga's reading of your post, sorry if it came across that way. Just saying in 'general'.

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Yeah I don't think its good to use the terms casual or hardcore.

However Destiny's investment system follows the rule of diminishing returns. I think we should just say past 2 hours a night plus weekends you start seeing significantly diminishing returns on your progress in the games grind.

I doubt Cody means it badly, just words that describe it pretty well. I'd like to see it reclaimed, for what that's worth.

We're taking it back!

[image]

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I have a strong feeling that your not fun things are what he enjoys. But what you said was pretty neat. I haven't seen the "you're just a casual player so you don't know anything" argument in quite a while! :)

He doesn't know anything about our complaints. He says so himself. I'm telling him why: "casual" players do not run into these problems.

Which brings up the question I've been wanting to ask you for a while (maybe I did and forgot the answer): Why don't you play casually, and if you do now, why didn't you to begin with?

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to see if some were as good as other said they were, to try out different things.

But exotic signature features don't kick in until late in the tech tree and 3 characters with two subclasses take a lot of time to fully unlock. So I did a lot of bounties to find out as much as I could of what the game had to offer.

I wanted to compare weapons and explore play styles.

And there wasn't much else that you could do in the game.

People have pointed out that the things you do in the bounties are what you would be doing anyway just playing the game. that is a double edged sword because when I had me time I found that the patrol play was just bounties without the rewards.

For example: I was very cynical when I did the Super Good Advice bounty. The bounty was easy and my intention was to shard the weapon when I got it. But I was doing a Mars bounty and I thought that I might as well use it before I shard it.

First time I fired it there were three Cabal in a line, one behind the other. I fired a quick burst and all three fell down instantly. I thought, "does this over penetrate?" So I hung on to it and upgraded it. I thought that it was a ridiculous weapon but kind of fun. Its red colouring and slightly worn appearance fitted Mars so I thought, "I'll hang on to this and upgrade it then come back to Mars and have fun with it. I didn't concentrate on upgrading it, it had to wait for more important weapons.

Problem was that by the time I had upgraded it and took time off to play with it on Mars... I had lost interest; I'd done Mars, I had been there too many times, shot too many Cabal.

This made me think that, if the day ever came when I had upgraded everything, well what would I actually do with all those upgraded weapons and armour?

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Do you know where it shines? In crucible.

If you co-ordinate and use it to to spray choke points into areas with relics or control points, with nearly unlimited ammo, the other team will have a very hard time capping points or sabotaging your relics. You can just start firing when you see something on your radar, and keep firing and firing. They can't get past.

Kind of surprised this isn't used more.

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If you can't hit anything anyway, how does infinite ammo help. :P

I haven't upgraded mine enough to know what it's like because I didn't find it fun enough to upgrade.

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If you fill the space before you with bullets, there's no need to be accurate. Since only bullets that actually hit enemies stay out of your drum, you can keep filling the air. :)

I, for one, am looking forward to Xûr so I can finally end my SGA bounty.

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I got the Bad Juju blues, myself.

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That's assuming that the enemy doesn't simply shoot you with before any of your bullets actually hit them in the first place.

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That's assuming that the enemy doesn't simply shoot you with before any of your bullets actually hit them in the first place.

Yeah, I would be concerned about rockets personally. If heavy ammo just dropped, don't advertise your position. A stream of hot lead won't save you from the Truth.

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Can we shoot rockets out of the air?

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Can we shoot rockets out of the air?

You can!

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Fill the air with your SGA and everything should A-Ok.

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I want a fire team of six doing that. It would be glorious!

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The awesomeness in games should be about what you know, not what you have.

Brilliant advice.

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The Titan's jump is glorious! Far more control than the Hunter's "I'm going to pop high into the air (and get shot) whether I want to or not" and far more forgiving than the Warlock's crappy "oh, did you want some altitude?" downward sink. And Blink? The only thing it's good for is misjudging your landing zone!

TL;DR: Titan jump is best jump. Period. Not up for debate. Period again.

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A friend of mine has stated, as a fact, that if you hold down the jump button when double-jumping, your character goes farther/higher (depending on class, of course). How could we test that out conclusively for Warlocks?

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The Titan's jump is glorious! Far more control than the Hunter's "I'm going to pop high into the air (and get shot) whether I want to or not" and far more forgiving than the Warlock's crappy "oh, did you want some altitude?" downward sink. And Blink? The only thing it's good for is misjudging your landing zone!

TL;DR: Titan jump is best jump. Period. Not up for debate. Period again.

The Warlock's jump is great because you can immediately halt your descent, avoiding fall damage at the very last moment before impact. Plus, you know, gliding above the battlefield while casually selecting what targets to nova bomb. It feels good.

Titans don't seem to get as much horizontal distance and their jump gradually slows their fall. You have to trigger it in advance. It's not optimal for me. Both times I used him in the Vault, he's died on the first jump of the Trials of Kabr.

Hunter's triple jump is just fun, but it is pretty much the only thing about the class that I like. The Chain of Woe is really interesting and the throwing knife is a little bonus every 30 seconds, but the supers don't interest me at all. She got some use out of my hand cannons but meh.

Warlocks FTW. I'd rather be playing Warlock than any other class.

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If you take the maneuverability upgrade instead of height, you can launch yourself crazy long distances, at a speed slightly better than sprinting. Just takes a bit of practice - jump, then wait until you're at the apex and moving in the direction you want, then jump again. Zoom!

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TL;DR: Me Like Titan jump good

I can see why you'd think that, since Warlock jumps require brains, which Titans seem to lack.

Hunters have probably the most forgiving jumps, as the triple jump can correct an error (Like when Cody almost failed our Flawless run when he bounced off the map), or adjust plans on the fly (I dropped down from a ledge, but then saw an enemy running towards my fireteam, so I cancelled my fall and jumped back up). Very good jump.

Warlocks have the most versatile jump, as the effect of the jump depends on what is happening when it is activated, so you can go up, go straight, go slow, break a fall, or juggle the jump for different results. Some mental math is required, so I understand if it's a very scary prospect.

Titan jump either poops you up slowly, or weakly tries to break your fall before running out a second too soon... Simple. Straightforward. Casual-tier.

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TL;DR: Me Like Titan jump good

I can see why you'd think that, since Warlock jumps require brains, which Titans seem to lack.

Hunters have probably the most forgiving jumps, as the triple jump can correct an error (Like when Cody almost failed our Flawless run when he bounced off the map), or adjust plans on the fly (I dropped down from a ledge, but then saw an enemy running towards my fireteam, so I cancelled my fall and jumped back up). Very good jump.

Warlocks have the most versatile jump, as the effect of the jump depends on what is happening when it is activated, so you can go up, go straight, go slow, break a fall, or juggle the jump for different results. Some mental math is required, so I understand if it's a very scary prospect.

Titan jump either poops you up slowly, or weakly tries to break your fall before running out a second too soon... Simple. Straightforward. Casual-tier.

Whatever man. With Improved Control and Shoulder Charge I glide across the battlefield like a whirling dervish of joy and doom.

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The Titan's jump is glorious! Far more control than the Hunter's "I'm going to pop high into the air (and get shot) whether I want to or not" and far more forgiving than the Warlock's crappy "oh, did you want some altitude?" downward sink. And Blink? The only thing it's good for is misjudging your landing zone!

TL;DR: Titan jump is best jump. Period. Not up for debate. Period again.

You know you can get a bunch of extra height as a Warlock by pressing jump again right after the first time, right? It's not like the other jumps where you want to wait, the sooner you press it the more height you get.
Also triple jump is best jump, this is fact.

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Hunters are the best. It's a legit double jump and I can aim and shoot without interrupting my trajectory. This is the #1 reason that I am better than others in the arena. I am mobile in ways that they are not, and am lethal during movement.

Also, I can spot noob hunters who jump jump immediately rather than delaying the second jump. Those are my first targets...

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I'm just going to continue playing it here and there. It seems like the people who play the game the most, or the most obsessively enjoy it the least. Maybe this is Bungie's gift, releasing us of the need/want to play all night every night.

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I'm just going to continue playing it here and there. It seems like the people who play the game the most, or the most obsessively enjoy it the least.

I have a sneaking suspicion that these folks actually do enjoy the grind, and hate themselves for it. Thus, the coming here, to try and make other people hate themselves.

It's sneakily difficult to disprove!

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- No text -

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I'm just going to continue playing it here and there. It seems like the people who play the game the most, or the most obsessively enjoy it the least.

I have a sneaking suspicion that these folks actually do enjoy the grind, and hate themselves for it. Thus, the coming here, to try and make other people hate themselves.

It's sneakily difficult to disprove!

Dr. Cryptarchlove - Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Grind

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SFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8gEUEuatxQ

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I'll miss falling to my death in the Vault of Glass because of Titan's weaksauce jump

Are you kidding? The titan jetpack jump is the best jump out there! :P

It has the best verticality anyway, and combined with shoulder charge you can get plenty of horizontal movement from a jump. It's not hard to cross the jump in the VOG that way.

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