Minimizing the Burden of the Investment System (Destiny)

by Dan de Board @, Monday, December 15, 2014, 17:46 (3872 days ago)
edited by Dan de Board, Monday, December 15, 2014, 17:52

I know a lot of people have issues with Destiny's investment system, the 'loot treadmill' so to speak. This type of progression has been a staple of the MMORPG genre. That said, Destiny is a very finely tuned FPS with shared world elements thrown into the mix, and it's audience appears to be primarily FPS players. These players are unused to this style of progression and many openly dislike it. We can't remove investment, as it's become something so inherently ingrained and dare I say necessary to keep a steady player base. I'm here to offer some ideas for how it can be modified. This is not a perfect solution, but it opens the door for what could be a perfect solution.

Level, Attack and Defense
The key to MMORPG design is advancement. Players are constantly in a state of advancing their character, their gear, or through quests. For a fresh release, the initial content is designed to teach the player how to play the game by earning skills and equipment at a rate which corresponds with the increasing difficulty of the game which ends with a penultimate challenge. Eventually, players will beat this penultimate challenge, have the best gear and all the abilities and will want a new challenge to beat. this means more powerful foes that deal more damage, have more health and require more coordination and strategy to beat. In order to beat these challenges, players must earn new armour to decrease the damage received and new weapons to take out foes with more health in a timely manner.

Destiny's loot treadmill isn't much different. Higher-leveled weapons and armor have higher Attack and Defense. Armour also has Light, which increases your Level beyond 20 and acts at a multiplier on damage received and damage dealt based on the level of the enemy you're fighting. In order to lessen the burden of investment, we must remove Level, Attack and Defense. By doing this, we level the playing field in PvE similar to how the playing field is leveled in PvP, making the only barrier for entry and success in a particular event the player's own skill and determination. This would also allow for more interesting gameplay mechanics, similar to what we see in the Raids. While this may allow players to run through content faster, they aren't burdened with needing to worry about keeping their gear up to date.

When you get down to it; Level, Attack and Defense don't actually do anything other than limit what the player can use in a given encounter. Destiny is extremely well-paced, something I commend it for, and it feels like Level, Attack and Defense were only tacked on to add artificial difficulty to the higher difficulty options available in the game. I've heard a lot of 'I like the look of this armor, but the Light isn't high enough' or 'I like the perks, but this gun has too little Attack.' This is even worse for Raiders, who are limited to the armour available in VoG and CE which has pre-determined perks and stat bonuses. I see many more positives than negatives to removing Level, Attack and Defense.

Weapons, Armour and Subclasses
By removing Level, Attack and Defense, weapons and armour become available to all. While everyone could be running around with whatever weapons they felt like, I feel like this is an area where we could incorporate a bit of the investment system. Destiny features many different weapon manufacturers that only have a little information here and there and maybe an emblem. Here's a list of the current ones:

Suros
Tex Mechanica
Nadir
Omolon
Häkke
Crux/Lomar
Daito
Cassoid

My suggestion is to flesh out these manufacturers more and turn them into factions similar to Dead Orbit, Future War Cult and New Monarchy. Each faction would focus on one or two weapon stats (Rate of Fire, Charge Rate, Impact, Velocity, Range, Stability and Reload). Initially Guardians would have access to only a few weapons from each faction, but by using weapons and armour from a particular manufacturer and gaining reputation, they would get access to more. This also allows the design of the guns to be unique from manufacturer to manufacturer. Armour would be earned just like weapons, but it would be cosmetic.

What does that mean for perks and armour stats (Intellect, Discipline and Strength)? Perks would be divided into Weapon perks and Guardian perks and be earned like weapons and armour by earning reputation with a particular manufacturer. Once a Weapon perk is earned, you can apply it to any weapon you have available. Guardian perks would be applied to your Guardian, not your armour like in game. As for armour stats, those would be another two columns in your subclass grid.

Subclasses would function just like they always do, except with the addition of the armour stat columns. Many people may decry that by removing levels from the game, it makes leveling up subclasses less intuitive. As someone that leveled both Voidwalker and Sunsigner at the same time on my Warlock, I found level-ups to be a nice surprise in the middle of a firefight, but far from required.

Exotics
Now that I've messed up the whole game, what does that mean for Exotics? Well, Exotics are a bit of a different breed. The current way of earning many Exotics is generally flawed. Exotic Bounties are a step in the right direction, but what if you weren't explicitly told what to do. I remember when everyone was theorizing about the chest for not letting the Templar teleport (which turned out to be true) and for not getting a Time's Vengeance on Atheon (which I never found out was true or not). Earning Exotics should be like that! Once earned, Exotic Weapons would have its two perks predetermined. Exotic Armour would take up one of the Guardian perk slots available.

With Levels, Attack and Defense out of the picture, anyone would be able to get Exotics at any given time, but they would require players of exceptional skill and cunning to earn them. As mentioned above, this would open the door for interesting gameplay, which would make things more like Raids. And it seems like everyone wants more Raid-like gameplay.

TL;DR - Remove Levels, Attack and Defense; give some personality to the gun manufacturers, armour is cosmetic, perks are interchangeable, Int/Disc/Str are in the subclass grid, Exotics are earned through hidden Exotic bounties, more Raid-like gameplay, more fun

So, that's the end of my spiel. What do you guys think?

This sounds familiar...

by HavokBlue, California, Monday, December 15, 2014, 17:53 (3872 days ago) @ Dan de Board

Like what they talked about prior to release. Exotics at any time, and a weapon good at level 5 can be good at level 30.

I should really watch those old Vidocs again...

by Dan de Board @, Monday, December 15, 2014, 18:35 (3872 days ago) @ HavokBlue

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While you are at it look at all the Halo ViDocs too!

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Monday, December 15, 2014, 18:44 (3872 days ago) @ Dan de Board

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(not bashing your post. it's a good idea)

by HavokBlue, California, Monday, December 15, 2014, 19:02 (3871 days ago) @ Dan de Board

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Minimizing the Burden of the Investment System

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Monday, December 15, 2014, 19:07 (3871 days ago) @ Dan de Board
edited by General Vagueness, Monday, December 15, 2014, 19:14

The key to MMORPG design is advancement. Players are constantly in a state of advancing their character, their gear, or through quests. For a fresh release, the initial content is designed to teach the player how to play the game by earning skills and equipment at a rate which corresponds with the increasing difficulty of the game which ends with a penultimate challenge. Eventually, players will beat this penultimate challenge, have the best gear and all the abilities and will want a new challenge to beat.

Actually after the penultimate challenge they would have at least one that's above it-- penultimate means "second to last/second greatest". ;P just FYI

What does that mean for perks and armour stats (Intellect, Discipline and Strength)? Perks would be divided into Weapon perks and Guardian perks and be earned like weapons and armour by earning reputation with a particular manufacturer. Once a Weapon perk is earned, you can apply it to any weapon you have available. Guardian perks would be applied to your Guardian, not your armour like in game. As for armour stats, those would be another two columns in your subclass grid.

Subclasses would function just like they always do, except with the addition of the armour stat columns. Many people may decry that by removing levels from the game, it makes leveling up subclasses less intuitive.

The levels, not really, but for moving perks around I would say so. I feel like I need a chart to understand what you're proposing.

Now that I've messed up the whole game, what does that mean for Exotics? Well, Exotics are a bit of a different breed. The current way of earning many Exotics is generally flawed. Exotic Bounties are a step in the right direction, but what if you weren't explicitly told what to do.

If you weren't told people would look it up on-line-- which they already mostly do, even when the directions aren't that vague. The people who don't feel like doing that would most likely just not do exotic bounties.

Once earned, Exotic Weapons would have its two perks predetermined.

What about the other three or four perks?

Exotic Armour would take up one of the Guardian perk slots available.

Interesting, how would that work exactly?

With Levels, Attack and Defense out of the picture, anyone would be able to get Exotics at any given time, but they would require players of exceptional skill and cunning to earn them.

That, or, again, they'd look it up, and maybe even be miffed the game didn't just tell them. They'd also cheese the skill parts, again like they already do, I got a request just last night to camp in a room with someone (in Rumble no less) to help them farm void damage kills for a bounty. There are things that effectively can't be cheesed, like playing the Moon strike on heroic and waiting for a specific guy to show up and killing him, but those also tend to be the parts complained about the most. I mean, I'm on your side, exploration and trying different things and having some actual challenge sound great to me, but most players aren't like that, and we do have some of that in the current setup.

So, that's the end of my spiel. What do you guys think?

Sort of a side thing, but for perks, I wish some of them stacked instead of being a choice, because there are several in the Hunter subclasses and probably one or two in the first Warlock subclass (I haven't used my Titan much yet or started on the other Warlock subclass) that have marginal usefulness and they feel like wasted slots, only there to give you a minor boost to this or that while you're leveling up to the good stuff. (While I'm asking about perks, I seem to remember one from early demonstrations where the throwing knife would cause things to be struck by lightning. I will have the man-babies of anyone in Bungie that can make that happen for me in the released game.)

Minimizing the Burden of the Investment System

by Dan de Board @, Monday, December 15, 2014, 20:25 (3871 days ago) @ General Vagueness

Actually after the penultimate challenge they would have at least one that's above it-- penultimate means "second to last/second greatest". ;P just FYI


My bad. :P

The levels, not really, but for moving perks around I would say so. I feel like I need a chart to understand what you're proposing.

The subclass grid would work exactly the same as before, but with the removal of levels there would be no on-screen indicator of when you're going to level up. Currently, level progression is at the same rate as subclass ability unlocking.

What about the other three or four perks?

Guns at most have 4 perks: the sight, two major perks (which appear at the bottom of the gun information window when you hover the cursor over it) and one of three minor perks. The major perks would not be interchangeable on Exotics because those are generally unique to them, like Hawkmoon's Holding Aces or Hard Light's Volatile Light.

Interesting, how would that work exactly?

As of right now, Legendary Armour has two perks each, except for boots which have one. Chest and Boots generally increase your ammo inventory with specific weapons while Helmets and Gloves reduce cooldowns based on kills with specific abilities, increase your melee speed or increase your reload with specific weapons.

I'd condense that all down into four Guardian perks: two Utility Perks and two Inventory Perks. Exotic Armour could take up either a Utility Perk or an Inventory Perk.

That, or, again, they'd look it up, and maybe even be miffed the game didn't just tell them. They'd also cheese the skill parts, again like they already do, I got a request just last night to camp in a room with someone (in Rumble no less) to help them farm void damage kills for a bounty. There are things that effectively can't be cheesed, like playing the Moon strike on heroic and waiting for a specific guy to show up and killing him, but those also tend to be the parts complained about the most. I mean, I'm on your side, exploration and trying different things and having some actual challenge sound great to me, but most players aren't like that, and we do have some of that in the current setup.

Even if they're looking it up online they still have to execute it. It's natural for people to take the easy way out on things, so if there's a cheap way to do a fight they'll do it. There's nothing we can really do about it. Only Bungie can police the way their game is played and even then there could be a huge amount of backlash for it.

Sort of a side thing, but for perks, I wish some of them stacked instead of being a choice, because there are several in the Hunter subclasses and probably one or two in the first Warlock subclass (I haven't used my Titan much yet or started on the other Warlock subclass) that have marginal usefulness and they feel like wasted slots, only there to give you a minor boost to this or that while you're leveling up to the good stuff. (While I'm asking about perks, I seem to remember one from early demonstrations where the throwing knife would cause things to be struck by lightning. I will have the man-babies of anyone in Bungie that can make that happen for me in the released game.)

Very few subclass abilities offer statistical advantages. I think the goal of subclasses was to offer horizontal advancement to classes instead of vertical advancement, which is what stacking would lead too. It is my belief that this game should be all about horizontal advancement. Vertical advancement leads to people worrying about numbers too much, which is why I suggested the removal of Levels, Attack and Defense.

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Minimizing the Burden of the Investment System

by red robber @, Crawfish Country, Monday, December 15, 2014, 21:28 (3871 days ago) @ Dan de Board

How bout this:

Remove Level but keep Damage and Defense ratings for weapons and armor.

Make it so any weapon can be ranked to the max damage, and your weapon of choice is based off play style, perks, etc.

Same with armor. All pieces can be ranked to the same max defense but the different perks determine your choice.

This goes for all rarity types from common to legendary, with the exception of exotics. Got a blue or even green you really like, level it up. I think this would allow a little more diversity in PvP especially. Most likely you'd choose a legendary over a common because of the extra perks, but there would be some blues that would def still be competitive.

When the level cap jumps, say like 30 to 32, just add two more damage levels to all weapons and armors max. Even make a new material so people can't just throw down saved up shards and energy to immediately level to the new cap.

Exotics should be able to have 1 level higher damage or defense rating than others to make them special and give yet another reason to choose them over the other classes. And make their final stage the exotic shard/energy. You could also do this for Raid or IB gear as well, to make them stand out as well.

Then set a 1 weapon and 1 armor limit on exotics, IB, and Raid gear.

Ex: 1 Raid Helmet, 1 IB gauntlet, 1 Exotic Chest, 1 of your choice of regular pants. Then same with weapons.

So now when you go into Iron Banner, you have no idea of what you are up against. But if you inspect a player and see he has all the weapons from the special IB, Raid, Exotic groupings, and for his armor as well, you know he's bad ass and has worked the entire game to be that way.

As far as the ratings go, If a 300 damage weapon hits a 300 damage armor piece, the ratio of damage is 1:1. If the weapon is 300+ vs 300 armor it would damage more by a percentage, and vice versa. So, If you focused on bad ass armor and had not upgraded your weapons you'd be tough to kill, but slow to kill others. Or if you just put all your beans into a bad ass weapon, you could take em down quick, but die just as easily.

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Step off the Treadmill

by Durandal, Tuesday, December 16, 2014, 09:53 (3871 days ago) @ red robber

We already kind of have a system where blue/green weapons are not much worse then purple, with Exotics still on top. In normal Crucible the Attack and armor characteristics don't matter, so really only the perks and base stats of your gun are in effect. You can do perfectly well in crucible without buying any legendary gear, and just by playing you will get access to Shaxx goodies.

I liked this system and I think it really did deliver on the "play your way" comments Bungie made prior.

The main issue I had was you couldn't get materials to upgrade in the Crucible, nor could Vanguard players get the faction gear.

The treadmill should remain confined to PVE, and PVP can stay off of it.

What bungie should add is more ability to customize gear. We should be able to spend weapon parts/ armor parts to reroll a la Iron Banner, and we should see more variety in the look of the gear from vendor to vendor. Right now too much of the gear is a color re-skin of another vendor's loot. Add the shaders (which are a great idea) on top and it is tough to tell just what players do primarily.

Gonna have to disagree with most of your points...

by Dan de Board @, Tuesday, December 16, 2014, 21:54 (3870 days ago) @ red robber

If we're keeping Attack and Defense ratings and removing Levels, how are players going to know what ratings they need to deal the most damage and sustain the least damage? Better to just remove them altogether to not frustrate players and to simplify the game systems.

While I like your idea to keep old weapons viable (despite the fact that it was rendered moot by the above paragraph), players will ultimately choose weapons that have more perks on them? Why uograde a Kvostov with no perks and no improved sights to 300 Attack when you could use a Legendary with sight options and three perks? Other than aesthetics of course.

Your armour solution doesn't really fix anything and forces people to play every part of the game to earn the best gear. If there's one thing I've learned, it's that a lot of peopke tend to be in favour of either PvE or PvP. By forcing those players to play gametypes they don't like or don't have the time to access, you're gonna annoy some people. People being needing to play things they don't like excessively is one of the major current complaints about Destiny.

Like Durandal said, we need to keep ratings outside of PvP except for Iron Banner.

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