PVP lacking options? (Destiny)
Having played Bungie games since Myth TFL. I have been used to a HUGE variety of options. Gametypes like capture the flag, territories, flag rally, oddball, king of the hill etc etc. Being able to adjust settings having any kinds of weapon loudouts, custom games, local games and so on and so on.
So why is it basically SLAYER and control (which also is slayer) and nothing else in destiny? Where is my classic capture the flag? 2v2 playlist, 1v1? No radar hardcore? The iron banner is actually the opposite of which I like (even playing field, love hardcore competitive gaming), but of course good for the people who likes it.
Ranked playlist, clan matches where did you go? Stat tracking and detail was so much better for halo2/halo3 on bungie.net.
I feel like I am ALMOST playing a demo version of the game. Though with the exception of good maps which I am pleased with.
This is really sad, because the core gameplay is really good. I think I am enjoying it more then Halo. So please add more choices.
Inferno
Apparently there is a new gametype coming out soon called "Inferno" which is gonna be no radar, supers, or gear bonuses. So there's your hardcore pvp at least. I'd take it as a good sign that they know we want more and are working on it.
The game is 3 months old
There will be more variety in PvP. Believe me. Halo had years to develop that variety. Vanilla Halo CE was pretty simple, too. Give it some time and you'll get more variety.
The game is 3 months old
Vanilla Halo CE had plenty of customization options, many more than Destiny. Remember setting the weapon options for the map? Starting weapons, gametype, match length, etc.
Destiny's lack of options is a conversation I am tired of having, though. Bungie prioritized other things, whatevs. Sometimes I wish they had prioritized differently. There will be options later, I wish they were here now, nuff' said.
The game is 3 months old
Vanilla Halo CE had plenty of customization options, many more than Destiny. Remember setting the weapon options for the map? Starting weapons, gametype, match length, etc.
Well, think that out though. Weapon variety is actually a huge strength in Destiny: loadouts you choose change PvP from a game of checkers to a game of chess. The gametypes in Halo CE were pretty similar to Destiny: slayer vs rumble, clash vs team slayer, control vs king of the hill, salvage vs CTF. No real oddball variant but really, it required a lot of time to put together significant variants in CE, and there wasn't really matchmaking at the time. I think they're pretty comparable. I think that matchlength is about right for Destiny too: the PvP is very fast, much faster than CE was. There's a strong base to work with here. Give Bungie another 3 months, and I think we'll see a much more diverse PvP as they begin to build on that base.
The game is 3 months old
by Cody Miller 
, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 09:36 (3592 days ago) @ iconicbanana
There will be more variety in PvP. Believe me. Halo had years to develop that variety. Vanilla Halo CE was pretty simple, too. Give it some time and you'll get more variety.
Halo CE had CTF, Oddball, etc zero months from release.
The game is 3 months old
Halo CE had CTF, Oddball, etc zero months from release.
It also didn't have live patches and hotfixes. And CE didn't have raids, or matchmaking. It didn't have any number of bugs that come from cross platform development or massive server loads. It wasn't an online only game. It had to offer everything it was going to be, from day one, and then hand the keys over to the user.
Bungie didn't have to do that with Destiny. I think they probably wanted more for the crucible, but due to creeping deadlines, couldn't have them all at launch. I'm okay with that. I like it when developers bite off more than they can chew. I'm pretty sure there will be more, and I'm okay with waiting for it.
The game is 3 months old
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 09:58 (3592 days ago) @ iconicbanana
edited by Cody Miller, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 10:01
Halo CE had CTF, Oddball, etc zero months from release.
It also didn't have live patches and hotfixes. And CE didn't have raids, or matchmaking. It didn't have any number of bugs that come from cross platform development or massive server loads. It wasn't an online only game. It had to offer everything it was going to be, from day one, and then hand the keys over to the user.Bungie didn't have to do that with Destiny. I think they probably wanted more for the crucible, but due to creeping deadlines, couldn't have them all at launch. I'm okay with that. I like it when developers bite off more than they can chew. I'm pretty sure there will be more, and I'm okay with waiting for it.
I am pretty sure that you won't get new modes until Destiny 2, or the 'comet' DLC if it still exists. You won't get it for free. Halo had a nice package that had a lot and you only paid for it once. If developing cross generation cost them the ability to make more multiplayer modes, then that's a serious downside and I hope Destiny 2 is PS4 / Xbox only.
The moral is that yes, you can add this stuff later, but it not only LOOKS better to get it right the first time, but it IS better. Waiting to play this game till spring, even fall, of 2015 would have been totally worth it if we had more modes, an investment system that isn't in turmoil, and a better story and missions.
I get development realities, but whenever you make choices there is sacrifice. Plenty of games coming out today get it right and are essentially complete on release.
The game is 3 months old
I am pretty sure that you won't get new modes until Destiny 2, or the 'comet' DLC if it still exists.
Maybe not! I know they're certainly half way there, since they have variants of their current playlists coming soon.
You won't get it for free. Halo had a nice package that had a lot and you only paid for it once.
I don't think DLC is going away. That's not a Bungie decision, or even an Activision decision. It's an industry decision. And so far, the customers of this industry haven't voiced any actual dissent (read: $$$) to it. If everyone keeps buying it, that's how it's going to be.
If developing cross generation cost them the ability to make more multiplayer modes, then that's a serious downside and I hope Destiny 2 is PS4 / Xbox only.
I would honestly be shocked if it wasn't.
The moral is that yes, you can add this stuff later, but it not only LOOKS better to get it right the first time, but it IS better. Waiting to play this game till spring, even fall, of 2015 would have been totally worth it if we had more modes, an investment system that isn't in turmoil, and a better story and missions.
Most of the issues that people have with Destiny seem to be those of preconception vs reality. If you're judging the game off of what's there, I think you have foundations. Maybe polish would have come with another year of development, but I don't think the foundation of the game would be very different.
Diversity of content is great. It's certainly better than an investment system. If Destiny never made it past the first title, I don't think it would be considered much of a success. But the first title might simply be the case Bungie is making to Activision to go ahead with a whole series. If Bungie needed to put one foot forward at some point, then the foundation of the game is probably what they focused on, with the investment system slapped on to make up for the lack of content.
I'm fine with that because, in the PvP scene, I think Bungie delivered a really tight product. I play the hell out of crucible, and I find it rewarding for what it is. More content would be nice, sure, but if the foundation wasn't so tight, content wouldn't matter. I, for my part, am willing to wait for more content. I can certainly understand frustration if you find the content lacking; I guess, as I don't, it's more of a moot point to me.
The game is 3 months old
by Spec ops Grunt , Broklahoma, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 10:38 (3592 days ago) @ Cody Miller
I get development realities, but whenever you make choices there is sacrifice. Plenty of games coming out today get it right and are essentially complete on release.
Not too sure about that one Cody, at least for this year in gaming
The game is 3 months old
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 10:54 (3592 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt
I get development realities, but whenever you make choices there is sacrifice. Plenty of games coming out today get it right and are essentially complete on release.
Not too sure about that one Cody, at least for this year in gaming.
There are three things that I blame this on:
-Holiday deadlines
-Last Gen parity
-...
A few good options are better than many that don't work
by RC 
, UK, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 06:08 (3593 days ago) @ Acheron
Population Halo: Reach had - what - 25 playlists? So many of those struggled to hold a decent population that would get you good matches. 343 Industries initially were going for a '10 playlists maximum' thing for Halo 4, but since went over that after incessant demands. Halo 4 had other issues, but last I played quite a few of those playlists were still seriously struggling as well. They're just too niche.
Playing Fair. For online, automated, always-on Matchmaking playlists, a lot of gametypes that Halo had - and ones that you mentioned - actually don't work very well. Halo-standard 2-flag CTF for example, devolves into a super-extended Slayer so often when one team gets a point advantage and refuses to finish the game. When there isn't a great difference in ability, teams still end up just killing each other ad-nauseum because they physically can't get past one another to make a flag run. In Destiny with blinking, camo, supers & et al. it would be crazy.
1v1 Slayer was tried in Halo 3, remember. It was an abject failure. One person gets a lead, then runs away from the other to keep their lead until time runs down. Variations with waypoints were hated. Heavy ammo was hoarded, sometimes too abundant and gives massive advantage in 1-on-1 engagements over and over. In Destiny you'd spend most of your time running around looking for the person, not fighting.
Destiny and CTF
by Blackt1g3r , Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 07:36 (3593 days ago) @ RC
Halo-standard 2-flag CTF for example, devolves into a super-extended Slayer so often when one team gets a point advantage and refuses to finish the game. When there isn't a great difference in ability, teams still end up just killing each other ad-nauseum because they physically can't get past one another to make a flag run. In Destiny with blinking, camo, supers & et al. it would be crazy.
If Bungie were going to do a Destiny CTF, I would think they would make it a bit more like Control. Players earn more points for doing things related to CTF than just killing each other, but killing each other eventually would earn enough points to end the game. Personally, I'd like to see a neutral flag variation where there are multiple neutral flags that you bring back to your base. Once you get them to your base they act like control points, multiplying your score as long as you can keep the enemy away from them.
A few good options are better than many that don't work
by Revenant1988 , How do I forum?, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 07:49 (3593 days ago) @ RC
Even at Halo's worst MM days, I can count the number of times I played a game like that on one hand.
(Where the other team intentionally held up the end to grind more kills or run the clock).
I don't know that Destiny would suffer from that, because I don't feel Halo did. There will always be jerks. No system is perfect. Sometimes, you're gonna have a bad game.
The problem I have with multiplayer these days is that scoring isn't as easy to understand anymore.
I miss the days where one kill was one point and that was that.
None of this, +5 for a head shot, +10 for a super kill, etc.
1 kill = 1 point.
1 capture = 1 point.
It's as bad as modern Halo where it feels like you get a medal just for reloading your gun.
When you get points and medals left and right for every little thing, achievement becomes meaningless.
A few good options are better than many that don't work
by kidtsunami , Atlanta, GA, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 08:04 (3593 days ago) @ Revenant1988
Even at Halo's worst MM days, I can count the number of times I played a game like that on one hand.
(Where the other team intentionally held up the end to grind more kills or run the clock).
Entirely anecdotal, I couldn't possibly count how many times I've seen this. Maybe I could count on one hand where I tried to capture to end the game and had my own team betray me to keep it going.
A few good options are better than many that don't work
by Revenant1988 , How do I forum?, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 08:12 (3593 days ago) @ kidtsunami
Entirely anecdotal, I couldn't possibly count how many times I've seen this. Maybe I could count on one hand where I tried to capture to end the game and had my own team betray me to keep it going.
If it was as bad as you claim, they would have dumped CTF and just kept it slayer.
That never happened, therefore, the abuse of which you speak was never widespread.
Uncommon, at best.
Isolated, at most probable.
(If I played 2000 games of MP, and had that happen 5 times, that's pretty damn good)
I take it you're not into data analysis or statistics.
by kidtsunami , Atlanta, GA, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 08:15 (3593 days ago) @ Revenant1988
- No text -
Maths and I don't get along ;)
by Revenant1988 , How do I forum?, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 08:27 (3592 days ago) @ kidtsunami
Seriously though, I don't think it's a big deal.
I think the reason we don't see CTF in Destiny is the very short time to kill for players.
(Though, the bouncy and floaty nature of MP in Destiny plays a bit like Unreal Tournament to me, and I always really enjoyed CTF in that game. It could work, if they wanted it to.)
I think they haven't figured out CTF yet
Seriously though, I don't think it's a big deal.
I think the reason we don't see CTF in Destiny is the very short time to kill for players.
(Though, the bouncy and floaty nature of MP in Destiny plays a bit like Unreal Tournament to me, and I always really enjoyed CTF in that game. It could work, if they wanted it to.)
It seems like something that might be difficult to balance in Destiny, just due to the nature of different classes. I'd put money down that they're working on a CTF mode, and aren't happy with it yet.
I think they haven't figured out CTF yet
by Revenant1988 , How do I forum?, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 08:41 (3592 days ago) @ iconicbanana
It seems like something that might be difficult to balance in Destiny, just due to the nature of different classes. I'd put money down that they're working on a CTF mode, and aren't happy with it yet.
Balance yes.
Those of us who look to Halo as a guide for CTF in an FPS come to expect certain things that Destiny does not currently have: A longer time to kill, the inclusion of vehicles, teleporters or other movement modes, and symmetrical maps.
What difference would classes (as they are now) make on CTF if it existed?
They don't make any difference on control. You'd think that in Control everyone would be running around as Defender Titans, popping bubbles on every node but I see plenty of class variety.
I'm curious why you think that CTF might not work because of Warlock v Hunter v Titan etc.
I think they haven't figured out CTF yet
It seems like something that might be difficult to balance in Destiny, just due to the nature of different classes. I'd put money down that they're working on a CTF mode, and aren't happy with it yet.
Balance yes.Those of us who look to Halo as a guide for CTF in an FPS come to expect certain things that Destiny does not currently have: A longer time to kill, the inclusion of vehicles, teleporters or other movement modes, and symmetrical maps.
What difference would classes (as they are now) make on CTF if it existed?
They don't make any difference on control. You'd think that in Control everyone would be running around as Defender Titans, popping bubbles on every node but I see plenty of class variety.
I'm curious why you think that CTF might not work because of Warlock v Hunter v Titan etc.
Bladedancer comes to mind. Because of the lack of things like vehicles, teleporters, and movement modes, bladedancers would be especially OP at crossing the map quickly. Especially on maps where vehicles aren't available, I feel like physically being able to move farther, faster, would unbalance the game. Same would go for a striker titan with super man punch. I would think that the mobility of some classes would be a larger factor in CTF than in something like control.
I think they haven't figured out CTF yet
by Blackt1g3r , Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 08:56 (3592 days ago) @ Revenant1988
What difference would classes (as they are now) make on CTF if it existed?
They don't make any difference on control. You'd think that in Control everyone would be running around as Defender Titans, popping bubbles on every node but I see plenty of class variety.
Control is still about kills, even though control points to have an impact on the score. As a result, I think you see more variety because killing opponents before they take the control point is more important that protecting the control point. In CTF it's a bit more important to protect the flag carrier which I think might skew the class choices a bit more. It might balance out though. Who knows though, it might balance out anyway.
Maths and I don't get along ;)
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 08:58 (3592 days ago) @ Revenant1988
Seriously though, I don't think it's a big deal.
I think the reason we don't see CTF in Destiny is the very short time to kill for players.
Call of Duty's CTF mode is one of the most exciting gametypes that it offers, and they have touch-return and Flag-at-home scoring, which have always been annoying in a Halo game, and you'd imagine it (annoyance) would be exacerbated in a CoD... But somehow it's not...
(Though, the bouncy and floaty nature of MP in Destiny plays a bit like Unreal Tournament to me, and I always really enjoyed CTF in that game. It could work, if they wanted it to.)
It would definitely add a neat twist... Or they could make it so that the flag carrier couldn't use Supers or double-jump...
Maths and I don't get along ;)
by Chewbaccawakka , The Great Green Pacific Northwest!, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 09:31 (3592 days ago) @ Korny
I think it would be cool if holding the flag zoomed you out to third-person, a la the swords of Crota we've wielded.
Maths and I don't get along ;)
I think it would be cool if holding the flag zoomed you out to third-person, a la the swords of Crota we've wielded.
Hey...what if...the flag, like, was a sword?
Maths and I don't get along ;)
by Chewbaccawakka , The Great Green Pacific Northwest!, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 09:38 (3592 days ago) @ iconicbanana
Hey...what if...the flag, like, was a sword?
I'd like if you could swing it like a sword, but I'd personally prefer that it was a flag. Maybe the flag you spawn with in the loading screen before a match. It'd be sweet having a one-hit kill swing like the swords. But I'd prefer if there wasn't any AoE ground slams or stuff.
Maths and I don't get along ;)
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 09:38 (3592 days ago) @ Korny
It would definitely add a neat twist... Or they could make it so that the flag carrier couldn't use Supers or double-jump...
Do you know how cool it would be to run with the flag in one hand, and a golden gun in the other?! :-p
I take it you're not into data analysis or statistics.
by RaichuKFM , Northeastern Ohio, Wednesday, December 17, 2014, 08:28 (3592 days ago) @ kidtsunami
If we all share our anecdoted and draw a conclusion from that, it's almost fair?
For what it's worth, that's happened to me an appreciable amount of times. It's always been a worse Grifball problem than CTF, I've found.
Annoyingly often in a game of CTF in Reach and 4, as soon as one team got two points, they went entirely on the defensive to just run out the clock. In Grifball, this was malicious forgoing-the-game-entirely-to-grind-spawn-kills. For me, a nuisance in CTF, and a real issue with Grifball.
Entirely anecdotal, I couldn't possibly count how many times I've seen this. Maybe I could count on one hand where I tried to capture to end the game and had my own team betray me to keep it going.
If it was as bad as you claim, they would have dumped CTF and just kept it slayer.That never happened, therefore, the abuse of which you speak was never widespread.
As soon as they broke from Halo, there was no more CTF.
Remember also, that in Reach they were experimenting with a lot of different objective modes. Headhunter, Invasion, Stockpile, race, hot potato.
Why? If I remember rightly, it was because a 4v4 CTF playlist couldn't hold a good population on it's own.
Options? I don't need no stinking options.
TFC CTF 2Fort
by dogcow , Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Thursday, December 18, 2014, 09:11 (3591 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto
Team Fortress Classic 2Fort is a ... classic. Maybe I should play some more TF2...