I notice the Stranger's Gun is one of the top ten most lethal PvP weapons. Most of the rest of that top 10 list is not very surprising to me either.

This may be because, for most first time 20's, the Stranger's Gun is just better than any other gun until you get some legendaries,

The Regulator Mk. 56 would like a word with you.

Not saying there aren't better blues out there, provided you get the right perks. But every player that plays through the story gets a stranger's gun. Population might be an explanation for why the kill totals are so high. Is Regulator Mk. 56 one of the top 10 crucible guns? No.

Oh crucible. It's a great PvE gun until you get legendaries. Impact on hand cannons matters much less in crucible than PvE. In PvP it's all about mag size, reload speed, range and good sights.

Is Regulator Mk. 56 one of the top 10 crucible guns? No.

Only Because The Devil You Know is a direct upgrade to the Regulator Mk.56, and the Hawkmoon is a direct upgrade to The Devil You Know.

Dividing the usage among the three weapons can greatly affect their place in "Top 10" slots, but I'm sure if you combined their stats, it would be near the top.

I know I still used my MK.56 on my Titan well after I got Legendaries for it.

And heck, my Devil You Know was one of the very first Legendaries that I got as a 20, and I still use it to this day.

I'm thinking specifically of the first section with the plates. I prefer to reserve heavy ammo for when it's necessary. The Templar seems like a more fitting place to use Truth.

When you complete the plates section, your heavy ammo is automatically refilled. No need to conserve. You're essentially wasting it by not using it.

Sad day for hand cannon users (like me). Seems like the designers really want us to use scout rifles.

...Both of those secondaries are getting a range/spread nerf. so maybe auto-rifles will win more of those mid-range engagements.

As it is, TTK with a auto rifle at close range is still too slow. A shotgun or fusion rifle user can tear them up.

Is that not how it should be?

That sounds completely reasonable and logical, yes.

As it is, TTK with a auto rifle at close range is still too slow. A shotgun or fusion rifle user can tear them up.

Is that not how it should be?

I just fail to see any scenarios then when an auto rifle is the best choice, besides Surros and maybe Monte Carlo if you are melee happy.

Depends on how you talk about ranges. To me a shotgun is effective at point blank and might get a kill at close range if you fire three or four shots, and is useless beyond that.

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There are many other autorifles that are completely, utterly, totally worthless in both PvP and PvE due to a combination of high rate of fire, low stability, and minimal impact. Nechrochasm, Doctor Nope, Silimar's Wrath... all are garbage. Killing *anything* with one of these weapons falls into the "chore" category, rather than "fun."

You're kinda unequivocally wrong here. They're not completely, utterly, totally worthless in both PvP and PvE. They're not garbage. Using them isn't a chore, at least not for me. I believe you that they are for you, and that you can't get headshots or kills with them worth crap. But that doesn't mean that noone can. So you probably shouldn't say that noone can.

This is just a really weird exercise in hyperbole and people conflating something being a thing they personally dislike with something being actually objectively worse. I should probably step out of it, now, as I've said the same thing in multiple places by now.

EDIT: On your point on blanket nerfs, yes, they're a bad design move. But they did mention that the auto rifles were tweaked (roughly?) proportional to their Rate of Fire, so they weren't paying no attention to it.

I completely agree. Perhaps no one in Bungie could ever playtest it because they couldn't obtain it, lol.

Fair points. I do think the magazine size makes up for it because of its added versatility, but I tend to play close anyways.

Get in close? Maybe if you're doing patrol or playing low level stuff, but as the difficulty goes up, so does the optimal range. I'd love to see you do a nightfall with such an autorifle. I'd love to see you do Crota with such an autorifle. I'd even love to see you do a level 30 daily as fast or faster than a handcannon / scout rifle with such an autorifle.

High level stuff has too much HP and is too damaging. It matters more to actually kill enemies more quickly. Hand cannon kills after 1 bullet. You have to empty 20 or 30 from your autorifle. Meanwhile I'm aiming at another enemy, and you have to reload.

I don't reload after twenty or thirty bullets, I'm using the 72-round gun, remember? I've done Crota. It wasn't any harder than the first time I did the Vault. I haven't done a Nightfall, but I've done Weeklies on the highest difficulty, with relatively little trouble. I don't do speed runs. What do I care if your hand cannon is faster? So you're saying you can kill in one bullet. That's, what, 1/13 of Hawkmoon's magazine? That's five-and-a-half bullets from my gun, so no, I can't keep up if you're one-shotting literally every non-yellow enemy. But on the off-chance you're not some godly headshot savant with snap reflexes, I point to the fact that it's easier to spray bullets into something's chest than one shot to the head, so I don't take as much time to aim. You still might be faster, but it's not that big of a deal to me. Again, I don't do speedruns. I can still kill things competently. If you're really that much faster than me, it's because you're better than me, not really my gun of choice, I guarantee it. You'd probably still be faster than me if you were using Doctor Nope; my priority in doing the Daily isn't really ever speed. Doing something really fast to try and beat my previous speed is fun to me in like, Rayman, but it's just not my thing in an FPS.

As for closing, I can punch things from farther away than they can punch me, generally, because I'm a Warlock; even if one's not, it's just a matter of timing. Time it right and I can take out a charging Major Vandal wielding swords, just by smacking him and interrupting his swing, and follow it up. I mean, I can't win the ensuing duke-out, so I (or someone else) have to have shot them up first, and it's a very risky proposition with Lightswitch on, but still possible, and rather satisfying. Snap Discharge (or Rain Blows or Switchblade) helps immensely. If getting in close doesn't work, I don't do it, I'm not stupid. You know people punched their way through Crota's End, though, right? Just because the optimal range is far away doesn't mean it's the only viable range, and sometimes the harder way is more fun because its hard, or the more fun way for someone just happens to be harder. So if playing close is more fun to me, I'll play close; if a certain encounter isn't fun to play close, I adapt. It's really not that hard to do.

What the hell kind of weapon jingoism is this, anyways? I have more fun with Auto Rifles, especially the bullet hoses, than I do with other guns. People were saying the bullet hoses were worse than they were, I disagreed, and it eventually settled down into getting to the crux of the matter, which made sense. But now it's just "But scout rifles (or hand cannons) are just better" which is just stupid? They literally work differently. My whole point is it comes down to playstyle, and personal preference. I'm pretty sure there are just some people who would like an assault rifle over a pistol because they prefer assault rifles, even if its an encounter that blatantly favors a pistol. If that makes sense to you, well, there we have it. Some guns are just more fun for some people, optimal efficacy be damned. If that doesn't make sense to you, then this won't go anywhere.

Point-and-shoot the thing. Would you rather hold down the trigger to continue shooting the thing, or just click once to shoot the thing again? Fairly intractable which one someone prefers, innit?

A little difference can make all the difference, depending on the player :)

Personally, I can't land headshots with hand cannons in the crucible to save my life. I'm seriously useless with them.

You know how some sights say "Enhanced target acquisition"? Try those. They give you more aim assist.

"Sureshot IS" seems to be the best, IMO

Yep, definitely possible regardless of range. More difficult, definitely, but possible. Just spamming away with TDYK (not pre-aiming with a sniper or anything) at quite long range I see yellow numbers at times. There is a certain range where it's no longer possible to do it consistently simply due to not being able to see the crit zone clearly, but it's still possible for shots to randomly land there.