All the details are broken down here

I'm scared that I might fall in love with Pulse rifles all over again :(

I hate videogames

I notice the Stranger's Gun is one of the top ten most lethal PvP weapons. Most of the rest of that top 10 list is not very surprising to me either.

I notice the Stranger's Gun is one of the top ten most lethal PvP weapons. Most of the rest of that top 10 list is not very surprising to me either.

This may be because, for most first time 20's, the Stranger's Gun is just better than any other gun until you get some legendaries, which can take a while. I really don't see it very often in the crucible these days (could just be me), but when my new hunter was between 18-24 and I got paired with players in that level range, I saw it a lot.

Cause that gun doesn't need one. I'm also wondering how much this will hurt the last word

"Increase damage by 2x (100%) against all non-Guardian combatants (aliens)"
O_o

Time to upgrade those new 331 Shotguns I just got!

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"Increase damage by 2x (100%) against all non-Guardian combatants (aliens)"
O_o

Time to upgrade those new 331 Shotguns I just got!

Might want to see how Swordbreaker works on those hive Majors now :-p 2x damage plus Hive disruptor!

The nerf to hand cannon range is strange. You want to keep people from just using autorifles in crucible, and hand cannons, the one weapon that can rock an auto rifle player, gets a nerf to range. I will admit that the Devil You Know with Send It is really effective in crucible, sometimes absurdly so, but overall did it really present that much of a problem in practice? It sounds like one of those changes that is meant to fit the ideal, rather than the reality.

Everything else I can live with. I'm eager to play around with the pulse rifles after the changes, especially since I basically got all of them on Tuesday running the nightfall except for coiled hiss.

I notice the Stranger's Gun is one of the top ten most lethal PvP weapons. Most of the rest of that top 10 list is not very surprising to me either.

This may be because, for most first time 20's, the Stranger's Gun is just better than any other gun until you get some legendaries,

The Regulator Mk. 56 would like a word with you.

I guess I am the 1% who uses them in PVE... so a buff there is nice.

On the rare occasions where I ride shotgun (get it?) with a friend in crucible, I quite ENJOY that I can run riot with a shotgun, because fuck auto-rifles, those are for wimps.

I would hope that they at least make a major change to universal remote then, because I have two REGULAR shotguns with way better range than it, and that includes aiming down the sights.

Oh well. I guess I just have to be even more crafty.

I really enjoyed reading that, and that feels like a very accurate assessment of what's happening.

I think ARs could use a small buff, they seem weak to me. For example, if I'm in close quarters and I start firing before a FR has begun charging and I land all of my hits, I believe the AR should win. FR timing needs to be a premium and thus if they are charging and firing before I acquire them as a target, that's fine. But it really grinds my gears to be full-auto, body hits (I know aim for the head, some of us don't have magic thumbs that can always hit a headshot!) probably 5-6 rounds already, and to hear them charge and fire and kill me with one shot. I think this should be balanced here.

I agree wholeheartedly with Hand Cannon nerfs. A hand cannon isn't meant to be a long range weapon.

PRs will be fun to try after this. I've had some luck with them, but they are weak right now.

SRs most of them fire too slowly I find. I did have a green a few weeks ago (started a new character) that had a fire rate as fast as I could pull the trigger and that was pretty devastating. If more SRs had a higher fire rate, I'd use them in PvP more.

I like what they are doing with FRs and even SGs. Not much for me to say there.

What I didn't see, and disappointed because I love using them, is any talk of Sniper Rifles. Give us more maps that can use Sniper Rifles! Come on, there's really 2 maps in the Control rotation even worth using them on (Shores of Time and Blind Watch). Anything else is a Shotgun/Fusion Rifle fest.

I notice the Stranger's Gun is one of the top ten most lethal PvP weapons. Most of the rest of that top 10 list is not very surprising to me either.

This may be because, for most first time 20's, the Stranger's Gun is just better than any other gun until you get some legendaries,

The Regulator Mk. 56 would like a word with you.

Not saying there aren't better blues out there, provided you get the right perks. But every player that plays through the story gets a stranger's gun. Population might be an explanation for why the kill totals are so high. Is Regulator Mk. 56 one of the top 10 crucible guns? No.

Was just going to post this, overall I am excited for them. The Shotgun needed that buff in PvE, as it really was useless. Naturally only time will tell.

I do agree with the 2 complaints i have seen, is Universal remote getting the range rebuff? and did hand cannons really need the range debuff? I think the hand cannons will work fine still, most ranges it will still be a 3-4 shot kill if head shots.

I notice the Stranger's Gun is one of the top ten most lethal PvP weapons. Most of the rest of that top 10 list is not very surprising to me either.

This may be because, for most first time 20's, the Stranger's Gun is just better than any other gun until you get some legendaries,

The Regulator Mk. 56 would like a word with you.

Not saying there aren't better blues out there, provided you get the right perks. But every player that plays through the story gets a stranger's gun. Population might be an explanation for why the kill totals are so high. Is Regulator Mk. 56 one of the top 10 crucible guns? No.

Oh crucible. It's a great PvE gun until you get legendaries. Impact on hand cannons matters much less in crucible than PvE. In PvP it's all about mag size, reload speed, range and good sights.

yes, that will be exciting. Only thing I use shotguns for in PvE is I have a void Crash I can use on Praetorians in VoG.

I just got 4th horseman last week. Might actually be a decent weapon now.

I'm hoping for another exotic weapon tuning patch where things like this are addressed.

I'd also like to see this data with subclasses and finding out what perks are commonly used. It is another area that could use some tuning.

And maybe after that, the sandbox team can take a look at tuning exotic armors.

yes, that will be exciting. Only thing I use shotguns for in PvE is I have a void Crash I can use on Praetorians in VoG.

Why not shoot them with a Truth rocket? Much easier :-p

If this patch works as intended, Pulse Rifle could conceivably become the new AR-killers.

What's going to happen to them? They already suck, now they are getting a damage reduction and a range nerf. They are even worse. There goes any chance I'll be using Necrochasm for anything ever. This is even more of a problem since all the vendor gear is high RoF low Impact.

It seems like auto rifles could have used a buff for short range damage to offset the range nerf. It would have forced auto rifle users to close space and make them more vulnerable to a fusion rifle or shotgun. The shotgun user would have to close the range even more and the fusion rifle would require a charge up.

It seems like it could be an interesting dance. As it is, TTK with a auto rifle at close range is still too slow. A shotgun or fusion rifle user can tear them up.

What's going to happen to them? They already suck, now they are getting a damage reduction and a range nerf. They are even worse. There goes any chance I'll be using Necrochasm for anything ever. This is even more of a problem since all the vendor gear is high RoF low Impact.

I hear good things about the Vanquisher VIII. And I also still have that Shadow price in my Vault...

And, you know, SUROS Regime...

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I'm thinking specifically of the first section with the plates. I prefer to reserve heavy ammo for when it's necessary. The Templar seems like a more fitting place to use Truth.

What's going to happen to them? They already suck, now they are getting a damage reduction and a range nerf. They are even worse. There goes any chance I'll be using Necrochasm for anything ever. This is even more of a problem since all the vendor gear is high RoF low Impact.

I hear good things about the Vanquisher VIII. And I also still have that Shadow price in my Vault...

And, you know, SUROS Regime...

I haven't tried it in Iron Banner yet, but so far I like Monte Carlo quite a bit more than Suros Regime. The overall handling just feels tighter, and the higher rate of fire comes without too much of a sacrifice to accuracy. It's not quite as good at long range, but at mid range you can easily land multiple headshots over very little time.

As it is, TTK with a auto rifle at close range is still too slow. A shotgun or fusion rifle user can tear them up.

Is that not how it should be?

...Both of those secondaries are getting a range/spread nerf. so maybe auto-rifles will win more of those mid-range engagements.

IDK, I have no problem with Atheons Epilogue when I use it. But I do like whoever had the suggestion of increasing the damage just giving it a quicker range drop off.

By the time fall rolls around, Hawkmoon will be so nerfed that the Xboxians won't believe us when we talk of the glory days...

Believe.

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As it is, TTK with a auto rifle at close range is still too slow. A shotgun or fusion rifle user can tear them up.

Is that not how it should be?

That sounds completely reasonable and logical, yes.

They nerfed the range.

Not impact.

Range.

It's going to be a little harder to headshot now. That's it. Steady your hands a bit.

A little difference can make all the difference, depending on the player :)

Personally, I can't land headshots with hand cannons in the crucible to save my life. I'm seriously useless with them.

Yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to the pulse rifle change. A straight damage increase actually seems pretty reasonable for that weapon class. I don't think most of mine are really lacking in range or ability to put rounds on target, it's just that when the bullets get there, they don't do much! Bad Juju gets away with it by virtue of its unique perk, but since that's one of the weapons I use most, I'm not going to complain about it doing more damage.

I'm of on board with the shotgun changes as well. I think my Universal Remote's going to get a bit more use. Its range still won't be what it should, but it might do enough damage to make up for that now.

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I know my recently received hawkmoon is the best scout rifle since TDB came around. Hand cannons were intended to be short to mid-range, they are pretty viable in the far mid range and beginning of long range right now.

As it is, TTK with a auto rifle at close range is still too slow. A shotgun or fusion rifle user can tear them up.

Faster than fusion rifles, I'll give you, provided the charge time is included of course. But you want TTK with an AR at close range to be lower than a shotgun? I'm curious how that scenario plays out. Faster than (effectively) instant kill? The AR would have to somehow kill other players before it was even fired.

I know my recently received hawkmoon is the best scout rifle since TDB came around. Hand cannons were intended to be short to mid-range, they are pretty viable in the far mid range and beginning of long range right now.

In my experience, Thorn is the best counter-sniper in the game.

I'm glad about shotguns, they need that love. So do pulse rifles.

Overall I like the changes, though ARs getting a damage reduction seems odd -- in PvE they seem like the longest TTK weapons after the pulse rifles. Pulse rifles will likely be comparable with ARs post-patch.

Guess I'll have to get serious about bad juju and start levelling mine up.

I'm still looking for a quality post-TDB scout rifle that has a decent impact, target acquisition and clip size. Outside of the HM crota drop (which I don't have) I've not found one worth using past the badger. The badger is similar to the hawkmoon on a lot of stats but overall not as nice, especially close to mid-range.

The nerf to hand cannon range is strange. You want to keep people from just using autorifles in crucible, and hand cannons, the one weapon that can rock an auto rifle player, gets a nerf to range. I will admit that the Devil You Know with Send It is really effective in crucible, sometimes absurdly so, but overall did it really present that much of a problem in practice? It sounds like one of those changes that is meant to fit the ideal, rather than the reality.

Everything else I can live with. I'm eager to play around with the pulse rifles after the changes, especially since I basically got all of them on Tuesday running the nightfall except for coiled hiss.

When you admit that a gun is absurdly good it might be time for a nerf. When I use a hand cannon I go with a sniper rifle for range anyway so this likely won't hurt me one bit.

SRs most of them fire too slowly I find. I did have a green a few weeks ago (started a new character) that had a fire rate as fast as I could pull the trigger and that was pretty devastating. If more SRs had a higher fire rate, I'd use them in PvP more.

Ha! I hate fast firing scout rifles. I tear up with things like the Badger CCL or the old Aries Nemesis x4. Slow, powerful, with a long range is what I want in my scout rifles. :)

I think that at a certain range you simply do not get precision damage hits regardless of where you aim.

That said, there are a number of hand cannons that have really good range on them that this won't be an issue for. hawkmoon and thorn (with perks) come to mind immediately here. And maybe those are the exception as they are exotics.

Depends on how you talk about ranges. To me a shotgun is effective at point blank and might get a kill at close range if you fire three or four shots, and is useless beyond that.

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It still won't kill a 33 Knight but his sword will probably kill you. Shotguns in PvE will probably be more useful in the next raid.

It's just a matter of time, but they will buff it down the line. It's dps and magazine size alone are just appaling. This is an exotic raid gun! Once majority of people vault this gun (like myself), Bungie then will increase it's damage and magazine size. Vex got nerfed because everyone was using it in Crucible and then still down the line they gave it a buff. Watch...

Thank God my 42 round Vanguisher has the rangefinder perk!

A little difference can make all the difference, depending on the player :)

Personally, I can't land headshots with hand cannons in the crucible to save my life. I'm seriously useless with them.

You know how some sights say "Enhanced target acquisition"? Try those. They give you more aim assist.

I'm thinking specifically of the first section with the plates. I prefer to reserve heavy ammo for when it's necessary. The Templar seems like a more fitting place to use Truth.

When you complete the plates section, your heavy ammo is automatically refilled. No need to conserve. You're essentially wasting it by not using it.

I know my recently received hawkmoon is the best scout rifle since TDB came around. Hand cannons were intended to be short to mid-range, they are pretty viable in the far mid range and beginning of long range right now.

In my experience, Thorn is the best counter-sniper in the game.

I used to use TDKY to kill snipers all the time. That's what I mean when I say it's got insane range. I could get three shots into a sniper and kill him before his aim stabilized.

As it is, TTK with a auto rifle at close range is still too slow. A shotgun or fusion rifle user can tear them up.

Is that not how it should be?

I just fail to see any scenarios then when an auto rifle is the best choice, besides Surros and maybe Monte Carlo if you are melee happy.

It's just a matter of time, but they will buff it down the line. It's dps and magazine size alone are just appaling. This is an exotic raid gun! Once majority of people vault this gun (like myself), Bungie then will increase it's damage and magazine size. Vex got nerfed because everyone was using it in Crucible and then still down the line they gave it a buff. Watch...

Doesn't Bungie have play testers? After 60 seconds any play tester would have been able to tell Bungie that Necrochasm is a shit gun, worse since its exotic. That they didn't know it would suck is completely beyond me.

SRs most of them fire too slowly I find. I did have a green a few weeks ago (started a new character) that had a fire rate as fast as I could pull the trigger and that was pretty devastating. If more SRs had a higher fire rate, I'd use them in PvP more.

Ha! I hate fast firing scout rifles.

You tried MIDA? It fires fast and is lower impact, but it gets the effects of high caliber rounds for free. You can stagger targets easily. In practice, it's really good.

A little difference can make all the difference, depending on the player :)

Personally, I can't land headshots with hand cannons in the crucible to save my life. I'm seriously useless with them.

You know how some sights say "Enhanced target acquisition"? Try those. They give you more aim assist.

"Sureshot IS" seems to be the best, IMO

How is it refilled? I can't think of any time in the game you just get Heavy ammo. Will need to try this out.

Don't have MIDA yet, would love for it to drop for me one of these days.

I completely agree. Perhaps no one in Bungie could ever playtest it because they couldn't obtain it, lol.

Yep. The MIDA Multi-Tool is my one exception. I really like Third Eye and it is very stable. Even then I still switch to Hand Cannons or Three Little Words after a while because pulling the trigger quickly annoys me eventually.

When you complete the plates section, your heavy ammo is automatically refilled. No need to conserve. You're essentially wasting it by not using it.

Wait, seriously? I always conserved my heavy ammo & used "The Commedian" to pop their shields & finish them off. You're telling me I could have just thrown rockets of Truth at them?

yes, that will be exciting. Only thing I use shotguns for in PvE is I have a void Crash I can use on Praetorians in VoG.

I'm one of the few regular PvE shotgun users. My full-auto Two to the Morgue just got very, very exciting indeed.

How is it refilled? I can't think of any time in the game you just get Heavy ammo. Will need to try this out.

As soon as you hear that sound that means the door is opening (and it says "The Spire has been activated" in the bottom-left corner), you should notice that all three types of ammo are basically filled. It doesn't always completely fill it, but when I am carrying my Gjallarhorn and wearing my +heavy ammo boots, my heavy ammo immediately goes to 5 (the normal max), 6, or 7 (the actual max with my armor perks) rockets.

When you complete the plates section, your heavy ammo is automatically refilled. No need to conserve. You're essentially wasting it by not using it.

Wait, seriously? I always conserved my heavy ammo & used "The Commedian" to pop their shields & finish them off. You're telling me I could have just thrown rockets of Truth at them?

Yes.

I think ARs could use a small buff, they seem weak to me. For example, if I'm in close quarters and I start firing before a FR has begun charging and I land all of my hits, I believe the AR should win. FR timing needs to be a premium and thus if they are charging and firing before I acquire them as a target, that's fine. But it really grinds my gears to be full-auto, body hits (I know aim for the head, some of us don't have magic thumbs that can always hit a headshot!) probably 5-6 rounds already, and to hear them charge and fire and kill me with one shot. I think this should be balanced here.

I disagree with this, mostly because a fusion rifle is a special weapon. It's got a short TTK, but not as short as a shotgun, so you still have a chance of killing them in close quarters. And as someone that gets out maneuvered often when I'm using a fusion rifle, my main advice would be if you're in close quarters move to the sides, not back and forth. If you move straight towards a fusion rifle user or run away, you gonna die.

As it is, TTK with a auto rifle at close range is still too slow. A shotgun or fusion rifle user can tear them up.

Is that not how it should be?

I just fail to see any scenarios then when an auto rifle is the best choice, besides Surros and maybe Monte Carlo if you are melee happy.

ARs are generally easier to use. They might not be the best choice for highly skilled players, but for players who can't master the timing & precision needed to be successful with hand cannons, ARs are a good choice. Some damage is better than no damage ;)

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I'm fairly certain the damage boost was just a change to an existing variable, not a hidden multiplier tossed in somewhere.

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Sad day for hand cannon users (like me). Seems like the designers really want us to use scout rifles.

And if you get to the jumping puzzle and run back to gorgons you will get another boost to (hopefully) totally fill your heavy.

If you look at the notes, they're getting the least nerfing, of all the auto rifle families.

And no, they don't suck. Why's everybody think they suck? They're for a specific playstyle, that apparently doesn't match your own. Which, you know, shouldn't be a surprise. If you love scout rifles and hand cannons, and someone hands you a bullet hose, you're probably not going to be as good with it. Conversely, I wouldn't be that great with a The Devil You Know if you handed it to me. That doesn't make TDYK bad, it just means it's not the right playstyle for me.

The nature of a ridiculously large magazine (72 bullets on Doctor Nope. I wonder if anyone ever rolled one with Field Scout...) means that it can cover the kinds of mistakes I make pretty well. Perhaps the reaction to that is "Oh, see, it's just a nooby type of gun for people who aren't that great, anyone sufficiently skilled would be able to do better with a slow-firer". I would dispute that. If one thinks skill=headshots, then yeah, I guess I'm not that skilled. But I do alright with that kind of gun. Hell, I've countersniped people using short bursts from Doctor Nope and cover, on occasion, which should be freakin' impossible.

They don't suck. I'm tired of seeing people say they suck. They're very good at what they do, it just so happens that that isn't what you want your guns to do. I could swallow this better if it was "Oh I hate these kinds of guns" and not "These kinds of gun are terrible". And I see a lot of people saying the latter in a lot of places, and I suppose I just finally felt like tossing up a filibuster on the subject instead of just saying "playstyle".

They have relatively low Stability. It's not that hard, for me, to compensate for that. They have a lot of bullets. If you're playing coy around the corner with someone, you can start shooting early and not really waste much. You can tear through mobs with them in PvE, if you do it right; get close, toss a lot of punches/knives/force palms, and shoot up anything and everything. It's great for softening up a swords-wielding Vandal so that you can take 'em out with a well-placed melee, or at least beat them back with the first one to take 'em out with the second. Not so much sword Knights, though. If someone's running away from you in Crucible, you'll probably not be caught needing to reload as often. If you get two ammo boosts via armor, you'll be able to carry 999 bullets, and pick up a ridiculous amount with every pack.

So, maybe, just maybe, it's not the guns, it's you.

As an AR user, the issue I have is that apart from increased ammo count, there is very little benefit to me with this kind of gun over slower guns.

I say this as someone who used to run a Doctor Nope, so I have a good level of experience with the archetype. A high-RoF AR has to contend with greater recoil and instability than slower models along with lower range and slower reload times. Essentially they have to be used at close range in order to be even on par with other AR archetypes.

So at close range they're equal, and at range, they're just not as good. Even a skilled user has to put more work in to achieve the same level of success as they would find with a slower, stronger model. That's not to say they're inherently "bad", but it does make them "worse".

Caveat: This is PvP Im talking about. I think they're great for PvE, and not just because 15 rounds per second makes a lovely racket.

Fair points. I do think the magazine size makes up for it because of its added versatility, but I tend to play close anyways.

That's the only way to make them worthwhile when you'll be OHK'd by anything bigger than a thrall. Especially with all the Nightfalls and Heroics featuring "Lightswitch."

The unwilling soul does 11 damage per hit at point blank range in PvP. After the patch, I'm guessing that will go down to 10. It also kicks like a damn mule. You will never get a precision hit with it, let alone a kill. Second, it takes (seriously) a full clip to kill a player who is moving at all. That means that time to kill is slow for a single player, and insanely slow for killing two players as there's a reload animation in the middle of your firing.

I use this only as an example. There are many other autorifles that are completely, utterly, totally worthless in both PvP and PvE due to a combination of high rate of fire, low stability, and minimal impact. Nechrochasm, Doctor Nope, Silimar's Wrath... all are garbage. Killing *anything* with one of these weapons falls into the "chore" category, rather than "fun."

This blanket nerf is a poor strategy. Rather, the offending ARs should be nerfed (and they SHOULD. Suros is too strong and too accurate), but the ARs that suck ballsack (and there are a lot of them) should have their impact and stability increased to bring them more in line with other ARs.

I also have used High RoF Autorifles, and they're not as good as you're making them out to be. Unwilling Soul was my weapon of choice, because of the "becomes more accurate the longer it is fired" perk, but it ran through all 72 rounds in just about 2 seconds, so it never had time for the perk to really kick in before I had to reload. Also, it would take me, literally, a full clip to kill someone in PvP with it, assuming I hit them most of the time and was at point blank range. The performance of the gun resulted in a 50/50 time split between firing and reloading, and if I fired any amount of bullets at all, I had to reload in order to have any chance of killing the next person I fought.

You like Doctor Nope? Buy For The People or Up For Anything. Take those two and call me in the morning. You'll thank me, I guarantee it.

I think that at a certain range you simply do not get precision damage hits regardless of where you aim.

Untrue. You can get a precision hit at any range I have been able to find. With Timur's Lash, Thorn, and Reglator Mk. 56 (the only hand cannons I've tried this with), you can get precision hits on Hobgoblins from range so far that they will not shoot back. Easy to test on Winter's Lair (this week's Nightfall). When you get to the "defend the door" section, run through the vex spawning grounds and up onto the ship. Wipe out the first wave. When the second wave spawns, hobgoblins will spawn up along the mountain walkway near the entrance to this area. You can precision hit them with your pistols, even though you can barely see them (take aim with sniper rifle, switch weapons, fire. Enjoy the yellow damage numbers).

I'm not much for the really high RoF ARs, but Up For Anything is a nice middle ground and I can confirm that one is a BEAST.

Yep, definitely possible regardless of range. More difficult, definitely, but possible. Just spamming away with TDYK (not pre-aiming with a sniper or anything) at quite long range I see yellow numbers at times. There is a certain range where it's no longer possible to do it consistently simply due to not being able to see the crit zone clearly, but it's still possible for shots to randomly land there.

I'm not much for the really high RoF ARs, but Up For Anything is a nice middle ground and I can confirm that one is a BEAST.

Up for Anything is a great gun. The perfect middle ground for RoF AR issues; like a silvered hushwind with Focus Fire.

I think you may have missed the part where I heavily emphasized the role of playstyle, in this, because that explains the discrepancy better. I'm not making them out to be insanely better than they are, they're just very good for what I need them to do. I know me. I'd do worse with a slower firing gun, and I'm not really inclined to waste the marks on one just to prove a point.

And I'm never going to run a gun without Third Eye in Crucible, I just can't anymore.

There are many other autorifles that are completely, utterly, totally worthless in both PvP and PvE due to a combination of high rate of fire, low stability, and minimal impact. Nechrochasm, Doctor Nope, Silimar's Wrath... all are garbage. Killing *anything* with one of these weapons falls into the "chore" category, rather than "fun."

You're kinda unequivocally wrong here. They're not completely, utterly, totally worthless in both PvP and PvE. They're not garbage. Using them isn't a chore, at least not for me. I believe you that they are for you, and that you can't get headshots or kills with them worth crap. But that doesn't mean that noone can. So you probably shouldn't say that noone can.

This is just a really weird exercise in hyperbole and people conflating something being a thing they personally dislike with something being actually objectively worse. I should probably step out of it, now, as I've said the same thing in multiple places by now.

EDIT: On your point on blanket nerfs, yes, they're a bad design move. But they did mention that the auto rifles were tweaked (roughly?) proportional to their Rate of Fire, so they weren't paying no attention to it.

With TDYD, I can reliably snipe from halfway across the map once I get warmed up.* It's why the moon is one of my favorite places to grind Bounties -- things will run out of their spawns/over the hill/etc and I can kill them from the "sniper tower" with ease.** Splash damage and ammo directly back into the magazine means I can keep it up for quite a while, too. Just wait until I'm down to one reload left or finish my mission and head out to collect the mats.***

This nerf is literally going to kill me, I think. ****

* Vex don't count. I have serious trouble precision hitting Vex no matter the range.
** Assuming that Fallen don't shoot me from behind.
*** Manipulating Patrol missions so that I have three collection or genocide missions to collect is fun, and it means I have gobs of ammo for other weapons after a Defend the Warsat event.
**** Not literally. Nobody likes a pedant.

Is Regulator Mk. 56 one of the top 10 crucible guns? No.

Only Because The Devil You Know is a direct upgrade to the Regulator Mk.56, and the Hawkmoon is a direct upgrade to The Devil You Know.

Dividing the usage among the three weapons can greatly affect their place in "Top 10" slots, but I'm sure if you combined their stats, it would be near the top.

I know I still used my MK.56 on my Titan well after I got Legendaries for it.

And heck, my Devil You Know was one of the very first Legendaries that I got as a 20, and I still use it to this day.

*****This is how you give a post the illusion as an academic paper.

:D

yes, that will be exciting. Only thing I use shotguns for in PvE is I have a void Crash I can use on Praetorians in VoG.

I'm one of the few regular PvE shotgun users. My full-auto Two to the Morgue just got very, very exciting indeed.

Saw a great reddit comment about one of your faves. They thought the Invective was nearly identical to a Halo 3 mauler; perfect for spamming a shot or two, then melee. They even sound similar.

Is Regulator Mk. 56 one of the top 10 crucible guns? No.

Only Because The Devil You Know is a direct upgrade to the Regulator Mk.56, and the Hawkmoon is a direct upgrade to The Devil You Know.

Dividing the usage among the three weapons can greatly affect their place in "Top 10" slots, but I'm sure if you combined their stats, it would be near the top.

I know I still used my MK.56 on my Titan well after I got Legendaries for it.

That definitely shows in the overall stats, with Hand Cannons far outstripping Pulse Rifles. While I think that makes the stats for the Stranger's rifle somewhat suspect, it is still surprising that it's as high as it is, considering it certainly can't be the only pulse rifle anyone uses.

And heck, my Devil You Know was one of the very first Legendaries that I got as a 20, and I still use it to this day.

Lord High Fixer is also very similar and I still use that in PvP. Although I did recently pull a Devil You Don't with field scout, and I think it'll be taking over PvE duties.

ARs are generally easier to use. They might not be the best choice for highly skilled players, but for players who can't master the timing & precision needed to be successful with hand cannons, ARs are a good choice. Some damage is better than no damage ;)

As a strong supporter of ARs I might be slightly biased, but I feel like all weapons should be good in their nitch as long as they are used right. No gun type should be good for beginners and nearly useless for skilled players.

And I'm never going to run a gun without Third Eye in Crucible, I just can't anymore.

I'm also very interested in how people feel about ARs when it comes to having a shoot out with different classes. Because for me (a titan), when I fight a hunter or a warlock who is a mobile POS, having a fast RoF AR is not that helpful because when I go full auto on them it actually takes me a while to realize they aren't in my sights anymore. I have to do controlled bursts just to stay on target.

Other guys are much better for these mobile classes, but again, the main theme in this thread is, use the gun for the situation.

And I'm never going to run a gun without Third Eye in Crucible, I just can't anymore.

I'm also very interested in how people feel about ARs when it comes to having a shoot out with different classes. Because for me (a titan), when I fight a hunter or a warlock who is a mobile POS, having a fast RoF AR is not that helpful because when I go full auto on them it actually takes me a while to realize they aren't in my sights anymore. I have to do controlled bursts just to stay on target.

Other guys are much better for these mobile classes, but again, the main theme in this thread is, use the gun for the situation.

This is why I still think Blink is the most useful ability in PvP. Blinking over someone's head when they have position on you and you haven't turned to look at them yet is the ultimate game-changer.

I don't know, man. It sounds to me like you've never used a good autorifle.

These are the facts: The slower RoF autorifles are easier to aim, are effective over longer ranges, have a faster time to kill, and need fewer reloads than their high RoF siblings. There is literally no advantage to the high RoF weapons. They're all downside.

This is why I still think Blink is the most useful ability in PvP. Blinking over someone's head when they have position on you and you haven't turned to look at them yet is the ultimate game-changer.

I go a little farther and would call it the most OP b!@# s!#@ ever, but then again, I'm a titan in PvP, so I guess I kinda chose the pain up front.

I don't know, man. It sounds to me like you've never used a good autorifle.

These are the facts: The slower RoF autorifles are easier to aim, are effective over longer ranges, have a faster time to kill, and need fewer reloads than their high RoF siblings. There is literally no advantage to the high RoF weapons. They're all downside.

This is exactly why I think they need to get rid of the slower RoF ARs, I think they are covering a nitch that pulse rifles and scout rifles already fill. I mean, who needs to use a pulse rifle when you have SUROS? And they give the high RoF ARs a bad rap.

I don't know, man. It sounds to me like you've never used a good autorifle.

These are the facts: The slower RoF autorifles are easier to aim, are effective over longer ranges, have a faster time to kill, and need fewer reloads than their high RoF siblings. There is literally no advantage to the high RoF weapons. They're all downside.

This is exactly why I think they need to get rid of the slower RoF ARs, I think they are covering a nitch that pulse rifles and scout rifles already fill. I mean, who needs to use a pulse rifle when you have SUROS? And they give the high RoF ARs a bad rap.

Overall I like the changes, though ARs getting a damage reduction seems odd -- in PvE they seem like the longest TTK weapons after the pulse rifles. Pulse rifles will likely be comparable with ARs post-patch.

To be fair though, 2.5% is a REALLY small change. I don't think the TTK on popular ARs will be noticeably different.

I don't know, man. It sounds to me like you've never used a good autorifle.

These are the facts: The slower RoF autorifles are easier to aim, are effective over longer ranges, have a faster time to kill, and need fewer reloads than their high RoF siblings. There is literally no advantage to the high RoF weapons. They're all downside.

No, seriously, this is getting tiring and repetitive. Can you just not keep all the bullets on the guy you're shooting, or something? I've explained upsides to them earlier. I'm not going to do it again. This is a really, really stupid conversation.

"This gun is statistically better than this gun by these metrics, but its best fitted to a different playstyle than this gun is" is what I'm drawing from what you're saying. I'm not going to pretend Doctor Nope is better than, say, SUROS. I'd still do worse with a SUROS. Therefore, Doctor Nope is, for me, a better gun. And if its the best gun for me and I do well enough, doesn't that mean it's not trash? Doesn't the fact that I do fairly well with it mean it's not trash?

Have I emphasized the importance of playstyle in this enough, yet? Because I'm pretty sure I have. And yet, the point, it's been missed.

2.5% on average. The faster guns are getting reduced by less, the faster by more, but it's still small percentages all-round.

The Stranger's Rifle has dramatically better overall stats than most legendary pulse rifles. Most notably high impact, stability, and range. It's easy to put 3 rounds on a target at medium - long range and they do high damage per shot. The legendary pulse rifles have dramatically reduced impact and range, making them far less effective.

I don't know, man. It sounds to me like you've never used a good autorifle.

These are the facts: The slower RoF autorifles are easier to aim, are effective over longer ranges, have a faster time to kill, and need fewer reloads than their high RoF siblings. There is literally no advantage to the high RoF weapons. They're all downside.

This is exactly why I think they need to get rid of the slower RoF ARs, I think they are covering a nitch that pulse rifles and scout rifles already fill. I mean, who needs to use a pulse rifle when you have SUROS? And they give the high RoF ARs a bad rap.

I actually agree with you!

Though the high RoF autorifles are eclipsed in their "intended" role by shotguns. They simply need higher impact and larger magazines. There's no reason it should take twice as long to load the weapon as it does to empty it.

I get what you're saying, but I believe that, whatever your playstyle, you'll still find that there is a more effective weapon than any of the high RoF ARs.

Point blank: Shotgun beats any AR every time. If you like point blank, use a shotgun.
Close range - Long range: slow firing AR beats high firing AR every time. The slower the weapon fires, the more effective it is at longer ranges.

You seem obsessed with Doctor Nope to the point that you're handicapping yourself. You can play any style with For the People or Up for Anything and be more effective than you're being now. You will kill things more quickly and reload less often. I'm not questioning your style of play at all; I'm helping you to understand that some ARs are simply better in all situations than other ARs because of how their stats break down.

I'm a really good PvP player in this game. Really good. And I'm trying to help you to improve your game as well. Weapon selection is a huge factor in determining PvP success.

--

I'll do some napkin math here for you (I'm making up numbers right now, but I will ask my fireteam for real ones so I can come back and do a real analysis):
- A High RoF weapon with minimal impact (Doctor Nope) does 11 damage per round to a target at point blank range.
- A Slow RoF weapon with high impact (Up for Anything) does 67 damage per round to a target at point blank range.

Doctor nope would need to put out 6.1 rounds in the amount of time that Up for Anything puts out 1 round to do the same damage. BUT... since the initial rounds leave the gun at the same time, you have a fencepost problem. UFA does 67 damage while DN does only 11 on the first bullet. Even if DN puts out 6.1 rounds before the next UFA round fires, you'll have DN doing 77 damage while UFA has done 134. Add 6 more rounds and DN has done 143 damage while UFA has done 201.

See my point? While the damage values are converging over time, the initial spike from a higher damage per round weapon means it will be in the lead for some time.

Extrapolate this out until DN has fired all 72 rounds in it's mag (about 2 seconds, iirc). UFA has fired 12 rounds in that amount of time and has 30 more in the magazine. At this point, DN has done 792 damage, total, while UFA has done 804. They're very close! BUT... Now DN has to reload for 2 seconds while UFA continues firing for 5 more seconds before needing a reload. DN loses, badly, in long term DPS, even at point blank range.

The farther downrange your target is, the worse DN will do, since it has an earlier damage falloff per round (lower range stat) and is less accurate than UFA (so more of DN's rounds will miss their mark).

I just timed a whole magazine, it takes about five seconds, according to my physical analogue watch. Someone with a stopwatch might want to test it to get something more exact. You were right, 11 damage (not quite point blank, but should have been within that range).

But the thing is that I just, after testing this, got a kill that I wouldn't have with Up For Anything, mainly because of the bullet spam. Which is very useful, to me. It's basically the big draw, obviously. I don't have much trouble staying on target, and I'm not encountering the dropoff basically ever in PvP, so those are moot to me. When I do lose track of target or panic, it's better than it could be because I can just spam fire with little penalty, and in fact it drops me into the lower magazine which lets me take advantage of Glass Half Full, which I have, but that's a personal tactic. Which is the kind of thing I was meaning to talk about with "playstyle".

So I'll believe you that the pure DPS is inferior. But I can take advantage of the fact that I can fire nonstop for five whole seconds if need be, and there's really no point during that where bullets aren't coming out. Or that I have more bursts en potentia. Up For Anything has barely over half the bullets Doctor Nope does, so its firing rate has to be rather... less. Or it'd eat through magazines like crazy. I don't have it, so I can't crunch the numbers, but how long can it pull sustained fire? For The People and Do Gooder V have even smaller magazines, less than half of Doctor Nope.

The fact that there's ~14 bullets being shot over the course of one second lets me be mobile whilst shooting someone else who's mobile without much worry about missing, I'unno. It works for me, and I like the feel of it. Even if it's worse, it's still not bad, it has its own upsides which I take full advantage of, and this way I get accustomed to one gun for PvE, and then that same gun for PvP. And, what I think is probably the most important, it's really freaking fun to just shoot a stream of bullets for forever, lemme tell you.

The Stranger's Rifle has dramatically better overall stats than most legendary pulse rifles. Most notably high impact, stability, and range. It's easy to put 3 rounds on a target at medium - long range and they do high damage per shot. The legendary pulse rifles have dramatically reduced impact and range, making them far less effective.

I think this doesn't factor perks in. I have a super pox vlo that would blow away the stranger's rifle; it's comparable in impact and range, upgrades perfect balance to be far more stable, and while it only has a 9 burst mag, it makes up for it by having glass half full and full auto.

That said, not everyone gets my super pox vlo, and everybody gets the stranger's rifle, which was the original point if you go way back to the beginning of this thread; and because it's so much better than just about any gun you'll have for a while, you see a fair amount of it among the 18-24 lvl range crowd in crucible.

And, what I think is probably the most important, it's really freaking fun to just shoot a stream of bullets for forever, lemme tell you.

I buy this argument 100%. Do what's fun - always!

I'll take a look at my UFA tonight and see what the real numbers are for sustained fire, etc..

For me, my favorite arena weapon is actually my Shadow Price, so I'll time that out too, but I got super lucky with Outlaw and Reactive Reload, plus you can't buy one any more, so knowing how good it is won't help.

--

One thing I noticed is that I could not find a website that listed actual weapon damage per shot values for PvP. I did find an interesting DPS comparison website: http://www.destinygundamage.info/#/info
which has some cool info, but doesn't break down every weapon in the game, just the top performers.

They have relatively low Stability. It's not that hard, for me, to compensate for that. They have a lot of bullets. If you're playing coy around the corner with someone, you can start shooting early and not really waste much. You can tear through mobs with them in PvE, if you do it right; get close, toss a lot of punches/knives/force palms, and shoot up anything and everything.

Get in close? Maybe if you're doing patrol or playing low level stuff, but as the difficulty goes up, so does the optimal range. I'd love to see you do a nightfall with such an autorifle. I'd love to see you do Crota with such an autorifle. I'd even love to see you do a level 30 daily as fast or faster than a handcannon / scout rifle with such an autorifle.

High level stuff has too much HP and is too damaging. It matters more to actually kill enemies more quickly. Hand cannon kills after 1 bullet. You have to empty 20 or 30 from your autorifle. Meanwhile I'm aiming at another enemy, and you have to reload.

Get in close? Maybe if you're doing patrol or playing low level stuff, but as the difficulty goes up, so does the optimal range. I'd love to see you do a nightfall with such an autorifle. I'd love to see you do Crota with such an autorifle. I'd even love to see you do a level 30 daily as fast or faster than a handcannon / scout rifle with such an autorifle.

High level stuff has too much HP and is too damaging. It matters more to actually kill enemies more quickly. Hand cannon kills after 1 bullet. You have to empty 20 or 30 from your autorifle. Meanwhile I'm aiming at another enemy, and you have to reload.

I don't reload after twenty or thirty bullets, I'm using the 72-round gun, remember? I've done Crota. It wasn't any harder than the first time I did the Vault. I haven't done a Nightfall, but I've done Weeklies on the highest difficulty, with relatively little trouble. I don't do speed runs. What do I care if your hand cannon is faster? So you're saying you can kill in one bullet. That's, what, 1/13 of Hawkmoon's magazine? That's five-and-a-half bullets from my gun, so no, I can't keep up if you're one-shotting literally every non-yellow enemy. But on the off-chance you're not some godly headshot savant with snap reflexes, I point to the fact that it's easier to spray bullets into something's chest than one shot to the head, so I don't take as much time to aim. You still might be faster, but it's not that big of a deal to me. Again, I don't do speedruns. I can still kill things competently. If you're really that much faster than me, it's because you're better than me, not really my gun of choice, I guarantee it. You'd probably still be faster than me if you were using Doctor Nope; my priority in doing the Daily isn't really ever speed. Doing something really fast to try and beat my previous speed is fun to me in like, Rayman, but it's just not my thing in an FPS.

As for closing, I can punch things from farther away than they can punch me, generally, because I'm a Warlock; even if one's not, it's just a matter of timing. Time it right and I can take out a charging Major Vandal wielding swords, just by smacking him and interrupting his swing, and follow it up. I mean, I can't win the ensuing duke-out, so I (or someone else) have to have shot them up first, and it's a very risky proposition with Lightswitch on, but still possible, and rather satisfying. Snap Discharge (or Rain Blows or Switchblade) helps immensely. If getting in close doesn't work, I don't do it, I'm not stupid. You know people punched their way through Crota's End, though, right? Just because the optimal range is far away doesn't mean it's the only viable range, and sometimes the harder way is more fun because its hard, or the more fun way for someone just happens to be harder. So if playing close is more fun to me, I'll play close; if a certain encounter isn't fun to play close, I adapt. It's really not that hard to do.

What the hell kind of weapon jingoism is this, anyways? I have more fun with Auto Rifles, especially the bullet hoses, than I do with other guns. People were saying the bullet hoses were worse than they were, I disagreed, and it eventually settled down into getting to the crux of the matter, which made sense. But now it's just "But scout rifles (or hand cannons) are just better" which is just stupid? They literally work differently. My whole point is it comes down to playstyle, and personal preference. I'm pretty sure there are just some people who would like an assault rifle over a pistol because they prefer assault rifles, even if its an encounter that blatantly favors a pistol. If that makes sense to you, well, there we have it. Some guns are just more fun for some people, optimal efficacy be damned. If that doesn't make sense to you, then this won't go anywhere.

Point-and-shoot the thing. Would you rather hold down the trigger to continue shooting the thing, or just click once to shoot the thing again? Fairly intractable which one someone prefers, innit?

You still might be faster, but it's not that big of a deal to me.

Maybe not, but it sure makes things more manageable when you have a bazillion things all around you. I don't like auto rifles. They kill PAINFULLY slowly in PvE compared to other options.

Sure, fine, you don't like auto rifles. That makes sense. My whole point here is that I like them, and so I'll continue to use them, and that personal preference matters more than efficacy, so continue to use what guns you have fun with, and I'll do the same.

I don't think they're as slow as you think they are, but that's rather moot.

*****This is how you give a post the illusion as an academic paper.

:D

...and creating a page's worth of increasingly-inane comments, but I'm told I ramble too much. [citation needed]

Good point. My super plox vlo has, uh, mulligan and shoot to loot? I don't remember, but it was garbage.

Sahara Archetype (Unwilling Soul, SOS, Doctor Nope etc.)
15 Rounds per Second at 11 PvP Damage

Shingen Archetype (Up for Anything, For the People etc.)
10 RpS at 16 damage

Cydonia Archetype (Shadow Price, Vanquisher, Grim Citizen)
7.5 RpS at 22 damage

Depending on whether the damage numbers we see pop up are accurate or are just rounded down, UfA might actually have a lower DpS than Doctor Nope. But it also has good stability & range by default.

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to gather those stats, by the way!

The worst part is that I actually knew those off the top of my head. I double-checked against The Spreadsheet though, just to be safe.

I just logged on to post this info. You are correct sir.

Of note:

UFA fires for 5 seconds before needing to reload.

My Shadow Price, with Field Scout, fires for EIGHT seconds before needing a reload (and it has Outlaw). The uptime on the gun is like 98%. God damn that thing's a beast. It also has reactive reload, and does 24 damage per shot while that's active (10% bonus?).

edit: So the math is:

Sahara type = 165 DPS, 11 damage per shot.
Shingen type = 160 DPS, 16 damage per shot
Cydonia type = 165 DPS, 22 damage per shot.

Extrapolating with fencepost theory (first rounds hit at the same time):

Over 1 second of firing:
Sahara:
Shingen:
Cydonia:

2 seconds:
Sahara:
Shingen:
Cydonia:

3 seconds:
Sahara:
Shingen:
Cydonia:

5 seconds:
Sahara:
Shingen:
Cydonia:

Assuming 2 second reloads:

8 seconds:
Sahara:
Shingen:
Cydonia:

10 seconds:
Sahara:
Shingen:
Cydonia:

It took me so long to do all this math that my previous post was time-locked. Here's the math!

I just logged on to post this info. You are correct sir.

Of note:

UFA fires for 5 seconds before needing to reload.

My Shadow Price, with Field Scout, fires for EIGHT seconds before needing a reload (and it has Outlaw). The uptime on the gun is like 98%. God damn that thing's a beast. It also has reactive reload, and does 24 damage per shot while that's active (10% bonus?).

edit: So the math is:

Sahara type = 165 DPS= 15 RPS x 11 damage per shot.
Shingen type = 160 DPS= 10 RPS x 16 damage per shot
Cydonia type = 165 DPS= 7.5 RPS x 22 damage per shot.

Extrapolating with fencepost theory (first rounds hit at the same time):

Over 1 second of firing (of note: Enemies will have between 180 and 220 health, depending on how much armor they have spec'd into; also, these numbers assume a 2 second reload for all weapon types):
Sahara: 176 damage (initial round + 15 rounds)
Shingen: 176 damage (initial round + 10 rounds)
Cydonia: 176 damage (initial round + 7 rounds)

2 seconds:
Sahara: 344 damage (initial round + 30 rounds)
Shingen: 336 damage (initial round + 20 rounds)
Cydonia: 352 damage (initial round + 15 rounds)

3 seconds:
Sahara: 506 damage (initial round + 45 rounds)
Shingen: 496 damage (initial round + 30 rounds)
Cydonia: 506 damage (initial round + 22 rounds)

4 seconds:
Sahara: 671 damage (initial round + 60 rounds)
Shingen: 656 damage (initial round + 40 rounds)
Cydonia: 550 damage (initial round + 24 rounds; reloading) - this is enough to kill 2-3 enemies per mag, depending on their armor.

5 seconds:
Sahara: 792 damage (initial round + 71 rounds; reloading) - this is enough to kill 3-4 enemies per mag, depending on their armor.
Shingen: 672 damage (initial round + 41 rounds; reloading) - this is enough to kill 3 enemies per mag, depending on their armor.
Cydonia: 550 damage (initial round + 24 rounds; reloading)

6 seconds:
Sahara: 792 damage (initial round + 71 rounds; reloading)
Shingen: 672 damage (initial round + 41 rounds; reloading)
Cydonia: 662 damage (initial round + 29 rounds)

7 seconds:
Sahara: 902 damage (initial round + 81 rounds)
Shingen: 816 damage (initial round + 50 rounds)
Cydonia: 814 damage (initial round + 36 rounds)

8 seconds:
Sahara: 1067 damage (initial round + 96 rounds)
Shingen: 976 damage (initial round + 60 rounds)
Cydonia: 990 damage (initial round + 44 rounds)

9 seconds:
Sahara: 1232 damage (initial round + 111 rounds)
Shingen: 976 damage (initial round + 70 rounds)
Cydonia: 1100 damage (initial round + 49 rounds; reloading)

10 seconds:
Sahara: 1397 damage (initial round + 126 rounds)
Shingen: 1296 damage (initial round + 80 rounds)
Cydonia: 1100 damage (initial round + 60 rounds; reloading)

--

Note that field scout *dramatically* increased overall sustained DPS (The Cydonia is capable of 5-6 kills, depending on enemy armor, in a single mag with field scout active, for example).

--

Time to kill per gun, single target:
Sahara: 180 health minimum - 11 damage initial = 169 health. 169/11 = 15.4 (must round up) = 16 additional rounds = 1.07 seconds TTK
Shingen: 180 health minimum - 16 damage initial = 164 health. 164/16 = 10.25 (must round up) = 11 additional rounds = 1.1 seconds TTK
Cydonia: 180 health minimum - 22 damage initial = 158 health. 158/22 = 7.2 (must round up) = 8 additional rounds = 1.07 seconds TTK

Sahara: 200 health average - 11 damage initial = 189 health. 189/11 = 17.2 (must round up) = 18 additional rounds = 1.2 seconds TTK
Shingen: 200 health average - 16 damage initial = 184 health. 184/16 = 11.5 (must round up) = 12 additional rounds = 1.2 seconds TTK
Cydonia: 200 health average - 22 damage initial = 178 health. 178/22 = 8.09 (must round up) = 9 additional rounds = 1.2 seconds TTK

Sahara: 220 health maximum - 11 damage initial = 209 health. 209/11 = 19 (must round up) = 19 additional rounds = 1.27 seconds TTK
Shingen: 220 health maximum - 16 damage initial = 204 health. 204/16 = 12.75 (must round up) = 13 additional rounds = 1.3 seconds TTK
Cydonia: 220 health maximum - 22 damage initial = 198 health. 198/22 = 9 (must round up) = 9 additional rounds = 1.2 seconds TTK

--

The math breaks down thusly:
For a single target, all weapons have identical time to kill for enemies of average health.
At minimum health, the Sahara and Cydonia class weapons are slightly faster TTK than Shingen types.
At maximum health, the Cydonia class is slightly faster than the Sahara, which is slightly faster than the Shingen.

until the initial reload, the Cydonia class delivers slightly more DPS than the Sahara class due to the front-loading of slower firing weapons (22 damage, pause, 22 damage, pause vs. 11 damage, 11 damage, 11 damage, 11 damage - every other round that lands puts the cydonia ahead or even to the sahara, which gives it a slight edge).

After the initial reload, the Sahara delivers the highest sustained DPS.
The Shingen always delivers the lowest DPS in all situations.

--

Accuracy is not accounted for in these numbers. It is known that putting shots on target is easier with slower firing weapons, but how much easier is not an trivial task to quantify, as it depends greatly on player skill. Missing even 1 round with a Sahara class weapon would make it a slower TTK than the other two, assuming those still had perfect aim (1.33 seconds TTK for the Sahara with 1 round missed).

- Also: In my testing of Shingen and Cydonia type weapons, at no time did I notice a damage reduction due to range. I did not have a Sahara type handy to check, but this observation surprised me quite a bit.

--

For me, my big takeaway here is that the weapons are all much closer in DPS than I thought. That being said, the Cydonia type is superior due to the fact that it's TTK is identical for enemies of 200 to 220 health, is the superior TTK at 220 health, and it provides a more reliable kill time (for twitch muscle memory) as a result. It is also the most accurate of the AR types due to the less frequent and less powerful recoil.

While I plotted out the sustained DPS numbers, you are extremely unlikely to encounter scenarios in PvP that require sustained DPS of a nature that would benefit from this information. In general, I'd say TTK numbers are the most important, with kills per magazine being second most important (always reload after 3 kills, regardless of weapon, unless you have field scout, to guarantee you have enough ammo for the next kill - realistically, I reload after almost every kill unless another target immediately presents itself).

From my personal experience, the Sahara type weapons simply aren't accurate enough to trust these numbers. It takes me a full clip at point blank range to kill someone, meaning i'm missing 75% of my shots (or more). With Shingen and Cydonia type weapons, my accuracy is dramatically improved.

And as a result: We know from these numbers that if a Sahara and a Cydonia meet in a dark alley, the Cydonia will always win. We also know that, factoring in accuracy, the Shingen is quite likely to beat the Sahara as well, but - again - the Cydonia will always beat them both. However, we also know that in a sustained firefight, the Sahara will win out, but a gun with increased reload speed would beat one without increased reload, regardless of type.

I hope you found this as interesting as I did!

Both suck dong as well. Are there any good exotic weapons in the Dark Below?

No.

I hope you found this as interesting as I did!

Yep! It was very neat seeing how it all broke down. I like how they're all fairly close enough that one can use whichever archetype feels most natural to them, even if some are strictly better on paper. Thank you for taking the time to crunch all that out!

(And, of course, the fun trick of the Sahara archetype is that you can walk into the alley shooting already.)

Dragon's Breath is something I like, a lot. And it has a face. A FACE.

Of course, 1/4 is an awful ratio, if you're right about the other three.

I really dislike Dragon's Breath. It's velocity is awful, the rounds buzzing through the air like it's molasses, and the Unique Perk is only useful in very specific circumstances (basically just the Lanterns and other "swarmed by Hive" areas). Better than the other 3, probably, but not a great weapon overall. Looks badass, mind you.

Course, I might just be bitter - I've had 8 at this point. Stupid RNG.

The rounds aren't overly slow as far as I'm concerned, but I do have Javelin turned on.

And I'm a sucker for effects like the Vortex or Solar grenade, especially vs. bosses, which is where I think Dragon's Breath truly shines.

Nice work! Yep - weapons in the same family/class/whatever share an (almost) Identical DpS in the Crucible, which is a nice balance I didn't initially anticipate back in September. Cydonia will always be my personal choice simply because of it's Stability, but if you're more skilled than I am (extremely doable - 1.38 K/D) you could feasibly use any AR just as well - but you might be handicapping yourself (playstyle caveat etc.)

Also worth noting that the most important stat for PvE is relative magazine size (by relative I mean that the Vanquisher's paltry 22 rounds is equivalent to 44 Sahara rounds). If all ARs of equal level deal equal DpS, it's important to deal that damage for as long as possible before reloading. Without Field Scout that actually puts a Sahara at an advantage, assuming your target is close enough.

Strange, that's one of the places I find it least useful. Anything with sufficient health just walks straight out of that flare. I wonder if you could use it to push bosses where you want them?

The extra DpS is nice for majors and other tough enemies, but Im spoiled and have a Gjallarhorn for that.

Personal Playstyle caveats for everyone! :)

Where would I ever use Dragon's Breath over Gjallarhorn? It's inferior in every situation.

And I'm a sucker for effects like the Vortex or Solar grenade, especially vs. bosses, which is where I think Dragon's Breath truly shines.

The damage of the solar flare pales in comparison to Gjallarhorn's damage. Bosses can step away from the solar flare, but they can't avoid the wolfpack rounds.

Personally, I find the tracking rockets to not be as fun to shoot as the regular ones.

Also, I don't have a Gjallarhorn.

Also also, Tripod.

"Not as good as <other gun in same niche>" =/= "Bad". Especially when said other gun is what is probably the second most lauded gun in the game.

Also, I find Tripod to be incredibly useful, and I'm a sucker for damage-over-time effects.

And I still don't have a Gjallarhorn. :p

(Honestly even if I got one I'd just shard it because I don't need two Exotic Solar Rocket Launchers, and I already bothered to level Dragon's Breath up.)

"Not as good as <other gun in same niche>" =/= "Bad". Especially when said other gun is what is probably the second most lauded gun in the game.

It's a bad gun if you would never use it. It's a bad gun when it offers no benefit over any other exotic rocket launcher. Even a legendary with cluster bombs or early detonation is better given its low velocity. When you equip an exotic, you have an opportunity cost in the form of other exotics you can no longer equip. This means that when Bungie designs and exotic, it needs to compete with every other exotic weapon essentially.

You could have the most amazing exotic shotgun, literally the best PvE shotgun imaginable, but it would still suck because shotguns suck in PvE, and now you've wasted your exotic slot and can't equip Gjallarhorn, Icebreaker, MIDA, or Vex.

On the flip side, making an exotic TOO good ruins other exotics, because now their opportunity cost becomes too high.

I agree with you, that it'd be a bad gun if noone'd never use it. I wonder why, then, I'm sitting here, using it? :p

If you're having trouble with the Velocity, just spec it to have a better one, because you can do that.

But the last thing I want to get into, now, is an argument with Cody "Roleplaying is driven by regret" Miller about my apparently sub-optimal gun preference, because that didn't go anywhere last time and it won't this time.

(Now it's your turn to shove something stupid I said once into my name; come on, it's fun!)

But the last thing I want to get into, now, is an argument with Cody "Roleplaying is driven by regret" Miller about my apparently sub-optimal gun preference, because that didn't go anywhere last time and it won't this time.

Notice I didn't pass a value judgement on you for using it. It's a bad gun, but there's tons of reasons someone would use a bad gun.

You should have called me a name, though, to make me feel better about doing the same to you.

Damn you and your moral high ground.

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No tracking, no early detonation due to proximity. Gotta have one of those for PvP (and early det is SO much better than tracking imo).

No tracking, no early detonation due to proximity. Gotta have one of those for PvP (and early det is SO much better than tracking imo).

Why not both? Truth has both. And you can have 8 rockets. And 3 rockets in the tube at a time. And aggressive tracking that lets you curve around obstacles if you aim it right.

:-)

Because it's fun. Isn't that supposedly why we're playing this game?

On the flip side, making an exotic TOO good ruins other exotics, because now their opportunity cost becomes too high.

See also: Gjallarhorn.

I've always wondered how much the Damage Over Time would help with downing Crota. The solar flare's constant damage would prevent his shield from regenerating & he certainly doesn't walk around that much when you're trying to down him.

Some day I'll level up my Dragon's Breath & give it a try. I've got too many exotics that I need to level. (lvl 32 guardian problems ;) )

I've always wondered how much the Damage Over Time would help with downing Crota. The solar flare's constant damage would prevent his shield from regenerating & he certainly doesn't walk around that much when you're trying to down him.

Some day I'll level up my Dragon's Breath & give it a try. I've got too many exotics that I need to level. (lvl 32 guardian problems ;) )

Never really thought about this but wouldn't it be pretty effective against her after she starts her song, since she's immobile?

I suppose I could have checked your profile though. Is gender listed on there?

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Truth is amazeballs, but it's also not a Dark Below exotic, so the comparison isn't fair.