Right again re: level design and journey co-op (Destiny)
by Cody Miller 
, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, February 15, 2015, 20:38 (3807 days ago)
A while ago, I mused that the problems with Desiny's level design were due to the drop in / drop out mechanic of meeting players.
Well, this has basically been confirmed:
http://gamespresso.com/2015/02/15/destinys-cosmodrome-was-supposed-to-be-5-to-10-times-bigger/
Choice quote:
“We ended up condensing things to be closer and closer, and one of the biggest reasons we did that was we wanted players to see other players. And when you get a space that’s too big, you just don’t see anybody, it gets kind of empty and lonely. And the other problem is, we have a limit to the number of combatants we can have in a space at any one time.”
I again ask if occasionally running into players you will never play or interact with was worth gutting the level design. If it was too lonely, they should have designed the spaces with more bad guys, and a flow to the missions.
Right again re: level design and journey co-op
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, February 15, 2015, 20:55 (3807 days ago) @ Cody Miller
If it was too lonely, they should have designed the spaces with more bad guys, and a flow to the missions.
That would make it even worse, on the technical side. Sparse players with tons of enemies each would quickly generate so much sync-lag the game would be unplayable. Condensing things keeps the game well-behaved in PvE online multiplayer.
That's probably also why Far Cry 4's co-op sucks so bad. They didn't compromise the level design in order to implement it, thus severely restricting its use and flow.
Right again re: level design and journey co-op
by uberfoop , Seattle-ish, Monday, February 16, 2015, 12:38 (3806 days ago) @ ZackDark
If it was too lonely, they should have designed the spaces with more bad guys, and a flow to the missions.
That would make it even worse, on the technical side. Sparse players with tons of enemies each would quickly generate so much sync-lag the game would be unplayable.
Unless they also more aggressively capped the number of simultaneous players. Especially if the individual instances are being peer-to-peer hosted, player count can have a somewhat multiplicative impact on the host's upstream bandwidth needs, which is often a huge networking bottleneck. Double the enemies and halve the players, and you might wind up with something that networks just about as well. Of course, it might wind up being heavier on local processing (i.e. graphics and some aspects of AI).
Right again re: level design and journey co-op
by Ragashingo 
, Official DBO Cryptarch, Sunday, February 15, 2015, 21:02 (3807 days ago) @ Cody Miller
Can you really say they gutted a level when it was made clear that the engine could not handle anything bigger? Heck, the very next quote in the article is about that exact thing:
There’s a part of me that wishes we could have five times as many players in a space, and have three-to-five times the real estate, it’s just a matter of working with the engine and working with the consoles over time to try to get closer to that dream.
In the ride along video they also talked about how even the level segments we do have were built specifically to break up lines of sight. It was said that even things like the tall ship in the Forgotten Shore was there both as a level set piece but also to help limit what needed to be rendered at any given time to prevent framrate issues.
And, of course, Destiny's problem is not a lack of playable space. It's a lack of a strong, front-facing story which perhaps filtered down into some repetitive story missions. If you wanted to play up the argument that Destiny should have been next-gen only I'd probably agree. I always thought it was a crime that Halo 2 got stuck right at the end of the Xbox's life. But I don't think the idea that the gutted their level deigns when their engine couldn't handle bigger levels holds much water...
tl;dr, Cody was wrong yet again.
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Sunday, February 15, 2015, 22:00 (3807 days ago) @ Ragashingo
Can you really say they gutted a level when it was made clear that the engine could not handle anything bigger? Heck, the very next quote in the article is about that exact thing:
There’s a part of me that wishes we could have five times as many players in a space, and have three-to-five times the real estate, it’s just a matter of working with the engine and working with the consoles over time to try to get closer to that dream.
I always did say that last-gen really held Destiny back from its full potential. Heck, the Alpha gave that away. I said it then that last-gen was forcing Destiny to lower its ambition.
In the ride along video they also talked about how even the level segments we do have were built specifically to break up lines of sight. It was said that even things like the tall ship in the Forgotten Shore was there both as a level set piece but also to help limit what needed to be rendered at any given time to prevent framrate issues.
One of the things that excited me during the Alpha was when I stood by the entrance to the Skywatch, overlooking the Mothyards, and sniped towards the planes while other Guardians fought the Fallen. The prospect of having long sightlines that you could snipe down, or journey towards/beside massive battles in the distance had me giddy... then we get what's in the final game, with every other area that you pass being completely empty, or with only a handful of enemies, but rarely do you get to see other guardians. Again, I blame last-gen, because I'm playing a bit of FFXIV:ARR right now, and it's a true, complete MMO running smoothly on consoles.
And, of course, Destiny's problem is not a lack of playable space. It's a lack of a strong, front-facing story which perhaps filtered down into some repetitive story missions. If you wanted to play up the argument that Destiny should have been next-gen only I'd probably agree. I always thought it was a crime that Halo 2 got stuck right at the end of the Xbox's life. But I don't think the idea that the gutted their level deigns when their engine couldn't handle bigger levels holds much water...
Bungie's no Bethesda, so experience is really what hurt them trying to make a quest-based non-linear campaign... Overhauls late in development may have had an impact on this as well (see: the Grimoire Cards)... I think they did the best that their experience and time could afford, but they're getting better. Delaying the next DLC was a smart move (343, you paying attention?), since the feedback from TDB was that it was a step in the right direction in some ways, and a mistake in others... I'm feeling positive.
Heck, if nothing else, Destiny 2 definitely won't have these problems. And if we can finally unchain current-gen games from last-gen consoles, then maybe we won't have to see great ambition die...
tl;dr, Cody was wrong yet again.
Bungie's no Bethesda, so experience is really what hurt them trying to make a quest-based non-linear campaign... Overhauls late in development may have had an impact on this as well (see: the Grimoire Cards)... I think they did the best that their experience and time could afford, but they're getting better. Delaying the next DLC was a smart move (343, you paying attention?), since the feedback from TDB was that it was a step in the right direction in some ways, and a mistake in others... I'm feeling positive.
Heck, if nothing else, Destiny 2 definitely won't have these problems. And if we can finally unchain current-gen games from last-gen consoles, then maybe we won't have to see great ambition die...
I tend to agree here. Catering to my 360 (and my sucky internet connection!) limits what is possible. I'm also (perhaps) starting to see the grand arc of Bungie's plan with Destiny. The beachhead is established, and now their world can be improved/updated/revised on the fly.
I used to wonder where all the effort went...all those people, all that money. I think it went into the nitty-gritty. Like gravity, much of Bungie's effort went into dimensions we cannot see.
Consider what Destiny will be by this Christmas...3-4 Raids available, 3-4 expansions worth of content. Perhaps 1 or 2 new modes or whatever.
Now, imagine Destiny 2 in Christmas 2016 (or whenever), next-gen only. It's not the initial offering, it's what it will become over time.
tl;dr, Cody was wrong yet again.
Now, imagine Destiny 2 in Christmas 2016 (or whenever), next-gen only. It's not the initial offering, it's what it will become over time.
It'll become a game I don't buy because the initial launch was so crapped up.
tl;dr, Cody was wrong yet again.
by Leviathan , Hotel Zanzibar, Monday, February 16, 2015, 14:01 (3806 days ago) @ yakaman
Bungie's no Bethesda, so experience is really what hurt them trying to make a quest-based non-linear campaign... Overhauls late in development may have had an impact on this as well (see: the Grimoire Cards)... I think they did the best that their experience and time could afford, but they're getting better. Delaying the next DLC was a smart move (343, you paying attention?), since the feedback from TDB was that it was a step in the right direction in some ways, and a mistake in others... I'm feeling positive.
Heck, if nothing else, Destiny 2 definitely won't have these problems. And if we can finally unchain current-gen games from last-gen consoles, then maybe we won't have to see great ambition die...
I tend to agree here. Catering to my 360 (and my sucky internet connection!) limits what is possible. I'm also (perhaps) starting to see the grand arc of Bungie's plan with Destiny. The beachhead is established, and now their world can be improved/updated/revised on the fly.I used to wonder where all the effort went...all those people, all that money. I think it went into the nitty-gritty. Like gravity, much of Bungie's effort went into dimensions we cannot see.
Consider what Destiny will be by this Christmas...3-4 Raids available, 3-4 expansions worth of content. Perhaps 1 or 2 new modes or whatever.
Now, imagine Destiny 2 in Christmas 2016 (or whenever), next-gen only. It's not the initial offering, it's what it will become over time.
Yeah, I'm hoping all this comes around and comes around well. There's so much potential and things they got right in the foundation of the universe that I can't wait to see them really take advantage of it all.
Right again re: level design and journey co-op
by stabbim , Des Moines, IA, USA, Monday, February 16, 2015, 08:34 (3806 days ago) @ Ragashingo
Can you really say they gutted a level when it was made clear that the engine could not handle anything bigger? Heck, the very next quote in the article is about that exact thing:
I think it would be more accurate to say the last-gen consoles couldn't handle it. If they'd been building Destiny only for next-gen I suspect the engine could have handled it just fine. Although if that were the case, it would probably be a significantly different engine than it is now anyway.
Congrats, you win 1 DBO Commendation
by Leviathan , Hotel Zanzibar, Monday, February 16, 2015, 14:08 (3806 days ago) @ Cody Miller
... but starting your thread with "right again" makes you lose all your Marks.
So all you can buy is either this DBO keychain or paperweight this week.
(Nope. Sorry, your inventory is full. Come back later.)
GIVE US MOAR VAULT SPACE LEVI!!!!!!
by breitzen , Kansas, Monday, February 16, 2015, 14:27 (3806 days ago) @ Leviathan
- No text -
Congrats, you win 1 DBO Commendation
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, February 16, 2015, 15:25 (3806 days ago) @ Leviathan
... but starting your thread with "right again" makes you lose all your Marks.
So all you can buy is either this DBO keychain or paperweight this week.
The DBO stuff I can buy with marks isn't as good as what I already have :-p