This one could use some tinkering, but I think something skill-intensive like it would be fun.

11 Shot Mag
Typical Reload
RoF: Sloooow
Kinetic Damage

Perks:
Innate: Easy Math – Each landed bullet adds a x2 damage multiplier. Crits do x4 multiplier.

Tier 1:
Who’s Next

Tier 2 Options:
High Caliber Rounds
Send It
Perfect Balance

Tier 3:
Firefly

Explication: This one’s a little different. The Key perk is innate here. Easy Math is kind of the whole point of the gun (kind of like Icebreaker with Ammo regen); chaining hits is the only way to actually kill anyone, and missing shots punishes. The rewards are for consecutive hits (not crits).

In crucible, the first bullet would do 10 damage; the next consecutive hit would do 20 damage; the third, 40 damage; and the fourth would cap at 80 damage. Each consecutive hit thereafter would do 80 damage. With headshots, the first hit jumps to 40; a second crit does 80.

Three headshots would still kill in crucible; after enough consecutive hits, 3 body shots would kill. Multiplier resets on reload, and the multiplier only expires with a miss, not over time. With 11 rounds, the best a player could do with a clip is 3 kills.

In PvE, base damage would adjust to scale of level; the first crit would do %50 of a thrall/dreg/goblins’ hitpoints, with each consecutive crit doing %150. Non crits would scale %25, %50, %100, %150. It would hit like a fatebringer, provided you can land crits.

And it would look like John McClane’s M1911.

(She's a work in progress. Maybe in PvE Body Shots max at %75? That works better. And Body shots in crucible max at 60?)

In crucible, the first bullet would do 10 damage; the next consecutive hit would do 20 damage; the third, 40 damage; and the fourth would cap at 80 damage. Each consecutive hit thereafter would do 80 damage. With headshots, the first hit jumps to 40; a second crit does 80.

Would hitting a body shot during a string of criticals reset the multiplier to body levels? How would it work mixing and matching?

Three headshots would still kill in crucible; after enough consecutive hits, 3 body shots would kill. Multiplier resets on reload, and the multiplier only expires with a miss, not over time. With 11 rounds, the best a player could do with a clip is 3 kills.

The problem would be getting kills to get your low multiplier high in the first place.

You could make it great by:

Only critical hits add the multiplier. It keeps going up (to a cap), and is reset when you either miss or get a body shot. This way, you can give a better damage bonus. If it ends when the clip ends and you can get body shots, you'd have to be conservative. It should be high risk, high reward.

But yeah cool idea.

In crucible, the first bullet would do 10 damage; the next consecutive hit would do 20 damage; the third, 40 damage; and the fourth would cap at 80 damage. Each consecutive hit thereafter would do 80 damage. With headshots, the first hit jumps to 40; a second crit does 80.

Would hitting a body shot during a string of criticals reset the multiplier to body levels? How would it work mixing and matching?

Three headshots would still kill in crucible; after enough consecutive hits, 3 body shots would kill. Multiplier resets on reload, and the multiplier only expires with a miss, not over time. With 11 rounds, the best a player could do with a clip is 3 kills.

The problem would be getting kills to get your low multiplier high in the first place.

You could make it great by:

Only critical hits add the multiplier. It keeps going up (to a cap), and is reset when you either miss or get a body shot. This way, you can give a better damage bonus. If it ends when the clip ends and you can get body shots, you'd have to be conservative. It should be high risk, high reward.

But yeah cool idea.

Getting kills wouldn't be the key to the multiplier; just consecutive hits. I'm actually concerned about too much damage; in crucible, after one headshot, you could just hit body shots and 3 hit kill anybody. Balancing this thing between PvE and PvP would be the real problem, I think; at the very least, it would probably require different scaling on the multiplier.

I like the core concept of this, but I would have some concerns. What if it rolls with iridium rounds? With the overpenetration, you could easily rack up that multiplier. Same with explosive rounds. The Firefly also worries me -- the way that the game is built now, explosion kills are tallied in with the counters for various things. This is most easily seen getting orbs with a Gunslinger. So, yeah, just some random concerns.

Getting kills wouldn't be the key to the multiplier; just consecutive hits. I'm actually concerned about too much damage; in crucible, after one headshot, you could just hit body shots and 3 hit kill anybody. Balancing this thing between PvE and PvP would be the real problem, I think; at the very least, it would probably require different scaling on the multiplier.

The problem here is that, in today's crucible, a three-hit kill is too slow for a hand cannon unless it fires as quickly as The Last Word. Thorn, Hawkmoon, Timur's Lash, The Devil You Know.... They can all 2-shot you with headshots (some with one headshot and one body shot). So if you have a slow ROF hand cannon, it needs - NEEDS - to be able to 2-shot. Because of how the perk here is designed, it would need to be a 3 shot kill for the first kill and 2 shot kills (with body shots) thereafter, or it would simply never be used because there are so many alternative guns that are always 2 shot kills if one shot is a headshot.

Getting kills wouldn't be the key to the multiplier; just consecutive hits. I'm actually concerned about too much damage; in crucible, after one headshot, you could just hit body shots and 3 hit kill anybody. Balancing this thing between PvE and PvP would be the real problem, I think; at the very least, it would probably require different scaling on the multiplier.

The problem here is that, in today's crucible, a three-hit kill is too slow for a hand cannon unless it fires as quickly as The Last Word. Thorn, Hawkmoon, Timur's Lash, The Devil You Know.... They can all 2-shot you with headshots (some with one headshot and one body shot). So if you have a slow ROF hand cannon, it needs - NEEDS - to be able to 2-shot. Because of how the perk here is designed, it would need to be a 3 shot kill for the first kill and 2 shot kills (with body shots) thereafter, or it would simply never be used because there are so many alternative guns that are always 2 shot kills if one shot is a headshot.

Hm. Hadn't considered that three shot bodyshots might be too slow. If it fired as fast as the Thorn, I feel it would be a little too good. You need to line up headshots with Thorn, and at close range that's difficult. Hip firing body shots with this thing at close range could be extremely OP; fast fire rates on top would be game breaking. Definitely an area to play around with; two shot kills could also lead to 5 kills per mag; you'd have to drop mag size as damage or RoF increases.

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That way you really, really have to be careful and land all your shots. The stability should be on the low end.

Outlaw may also be a good perk instead of Firefly. With who's next you could have blinding fast reload speeds.

That way you really, really have to be careful and land all your shots. The stability should be on the low end.

Outlaw may also be a good perk instead of Firefly. With who's next you could have blinding fast reload speeds.

With the way the damage is set on this gun, it already punishes pretty severely if you miss a shot. Even at the cap of 80 in crucible, two hits will only do 160, and a miss could result in two more hits only doing 30 (10 then 20 on body shots), meaning you'd need 6 bullets for the kill (assuming you didn't miss again).

I miss a lot of shots with TLW and Thorn. They're great guns, and I get plenty of kills, but I miss probably a third of the bullets I fire. Ever accidentally shoot the doorway you were firing through on Twilight Gap? Or catch a tree on Shores of Time?

Outlaw would be a good perk though, to make up for the fact you're dropping back to 10/%25 damage on a reload. And I really like the Low stability solution to fix RoF; it could be faster as long as you were punished for actually firing faster. In fact, that might be a good balance fixer for the gun: people would be more likely to fire too fast while under attack, and the result would be a lot of missed shots.

Who needs to line up headshots when you can spam bodyshots at centre mass and still kill with 3 rounds. If the fire rate was lower you'd have to line it up, but as it is you can get those 3 bodyshots off fast enough to outshoot anything but TLW (and maybe Hawkmoon, dependent on The damage proc). And if you catch them by surprise? Dead.

Yeah... There's probably something to your aside...

Who needs to line up headshots when you can spam bodyshots at centre mass and still kill with 3 rounds. If the fire rate was lower you'd have to line it up, but as it is you can get those 3 bodyshots off fast enough to outshoot anything but TLW (and maybe Hawkmoon, dependent on The damage proc). And if you catch them by surprise? Dead.

Yeah... There's probably something to your aside...

Seriously, I was writing that response and was thinking "Goddamn, the Thorn already does 3 shots on bodyshots! HOW IS ANYONE OKAY WITH THIS!?"

Getting kills wouldn't be the key to the multiplier; just consecutive hits. I'm actually concerned about too much damage; in crucible, after one headshot, you could just hit body shots and 3 hit kill anybody. Balancing this thing between PvE and PvP would be the real problem, I think; at the very least, it would probably require different scaling on the multiplier.

The problem here is that, in today's crucible, a three-hit kill is too slow for a hand cannon unless it fires as quickly as The Last Word. Thorn, Hawkmoon, Timur's Lash, The Devil You Know.... They can all 2-shot you with headshots (some with one headshot and one body shot). So if you have a slow ROF hand cannon, it needs - NEEDS - to be able to 2-shot.

Your Info is incorrect. All hand cannons are 3 shot kills in normal curcible: 1 head, 2 body for most, and 2 head one body for high Rof. The exceptions are Hawkmoon, Last Word, and Thorn. Hawkmoon and Thorn can kill in 2 headshots (thorn with DoT), and the last word takes 4 shots (3 if you use hip fire), but the rate of fire is so high that makes up for it.

This is why Timur's lash is bad in Crucible: too low rate of fire. I prefer medium impact hand cannons for this reason: faster rate of fire, but not TOO fast. Things like Word of Crota and Devil you Don't let me fire again before I'm even ready and have repositioned the reticle.

I went into Iron banner as a level 28 Warlock, and was still 3 shotting with a 300 Devil You know. That thing will last forever.

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I went into Iron banner as a level 28 Warlock, and was still 3 shotting with a 300 Devil You know. That thing will last forever.

For the first time in forever, I actually have enough Marks saved up to buy a Vanguard weapon (not to mention the 35-ish Vanguard Commendations cluttering up my Vault). Devil You Know is a weapon I wouldn't mind adding to my collection.

Any advice on specific rolls I should look for?

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Crap. Only chance of getting one is via Engram, then?

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I have yet to see any proof that you can get old vanguard weapons out of engrams.

The stats are practically identical, but the stock TDYK comes with "send it" which gives it it's insane range.

I sharded all mine before I realized that. :(

I have yet to see any proof that you can get old vanguard weapons out of engrams.

Granted, it was a Lord High Fixer, the old crucible hand cannon, but it was 300 attack, and it was post-TDB. I think you can still pull all of the old weapons via engram.

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I went into Iron banner as a level 28 Warlock, and was still 3 shotting with a 300 Devil You know. That thing will last forever.

For the first time in forever, I actually have enough Marks saved up to buy a Vanguard weapon (not to mention the 35-ish Vanguard Commendations cluttering up my Vault). Devil You Know is a weapon I wouldn't mind adding to my collection.

Any advice on specific rolls I should look for?

It's gone. Missed your chance.

It's of the medium impact archetype. I believe fatebringer has the same base stats. The vendor Devil you Know had send it, bumping up the range to an absurd amount, along with crowd control, and zen moment. Great gun.

You can replicate it by taking a legendary medium impact hand cannon with send it. The chance has a 6 shot magazine, so field scout conflicts with send it. If you can roll send it on TFWPKY, Venation III, or Red Hand IX, it'd be pretty close to a Devil You Know. Red hand prioritizes stability while sacrificing range, so of the three it's the least desirable for my playstyle. But it looks really really cool.

In my opinion, stability is not too important on a hand cannon. Range upgrades are excellent.

I think for PvP, Outlaw, send it, and third eye would be the best roll!

I went into Iron banner as a level 28 Warlock, and was still 3 shotting with a 300 Devil You know. That thing will last forever.

For the first time in forever, I actually have enough Marks saved up to buy a Vanguard weapon (not to mention the 35-ish Vanguard Commendations cluttering up my Vault). Devil You Know is a weapon I wouldn't mind adding to my collection.

Any advice on specific rolls I should look for?

It's gone. Missed your chance.

It's of the medium impact archetype. I believe fatebringer has the same base stats. The vendor Devil you Know had send it, bumping up the range to an absurd amount. The vendor Devil you Know had Send it, crowd control, and zen moment. Great gun.

You can replicate it by taking a legendary medium impact hand cannon with send it. The chance has a 6 shot magazine, so field scout conflicts with send it. If you can roll send it on TFWPKY, Venation III, or Red Hand IX, it'd be pretty close to a Devil You Know.

In my opinion, stability is not too important on a hand cannon. Range upgrades are excellent.

I think for PvP, Outlaw, send it, and Crowd Control would be the best roll!

Explosive rounds are also quite handy in PvP if you don't roll send it.

I got a Red Hand from the nightfall a few weeks ago... It's still sitting at the postmaster. I'll check it's stats tonight.

Any advice on specific rolls I should look for?

Others have already covered the fact that you can't buy it anymore (which is a shame, it was a great weapon). I thought it was worth adding that, even if you could, the rolls never change on the versions that are sold at the Vanguard/faction vendors. Only way to get a different roll would be from an engram.

That being said, I know someone who (from an engram) got a Devil You Don't with field scout, and for reasons I don't quite understand, it took the capacity from 5 to 13. It's still a pretty different gun from Devil You Know, but having a lot of shots was ONE of the things that made the original so good, so that roll is worth keeping an eye out for. If you could get that, a decent sight (I hate the ones the Vanguard version comes with), and something to increase range, you'd be getting pretty close.

I got a Red Hand from the nightfall a few weeks ago... It's still sitting at the postmaster. I'll check it's stats tonight.

Red Hand is great, but it trades range for stability on the base stats, which in my opinion is not the best.

That being said, I know someone who (from an engram) got a Devil You Don't with field scout, and for reasons I don't quite understand, it took the capacity from 5 to 13.

Field scout takes any hand cannon to 13 shots, regardless of what they start with. Devil you Know had field scout from the vendor, which was pointless because it'd take it from 12 to 13 :-)

I rolled both clown cartridge and field scout on my Timur's lash, which gives me an insane 16 rounds when clown cartridge procs.

I sharded all mine before I realized that. :(

I sharded all mine before I realized that. :(

I went into Iron banner as a level 28 Warlock, and was still 3 shotting with a 300 Devil You know. That thing will last forever.

For the first time in forever, I actually have enough Marks saved up to buy a Vanguard weapon (not to mention the 35-ish Vanguard Commendations cluttering up my Vault). Devil You Know is a weapon I wouldn't mind adding to my collection.

Any advice on specific rolls I should look for?

It's gone. Missed your chance.

It's of the medium impact archetype. I believe fatebringer has the same base stats. The vendor Devil you Know had send it, bumping up the range to an absurd amount, along with crowd control, and zen moment. Great gun.

You can replicate it by taking a legendary medium impact hand cannon with send it. The chance has a 6 shot magazine, so field scout conflicts with send it. If you can roll send it on TFWPKY, Venation III, or Red Hand IX, it'd be pretty close to a Devil You Know. Red hand prioritizes stability while sacrificing range, so of the three it's the least desirable for my playstyle. But it looks really really cool.

In my opinion, stability is not too important on a hand cannon. Range upgrades are excellent.

I think for PvP, Outlaw, send it, and third eye would be the best roll!

Thanks for the tips!

I've got a TFWPKY, but the roll seems to be better suited for PvE. Hip Fire, Final Round, and a choice of Armor Piercing Rounds, Flared Magwell, or Explosive Rounds. Not something I would typically bring in to the Crucible. I had a Red Hand IX, but sharded it a couple months ago. Just sharded my Venation III when I got Timur's Lash (also more of a PvE roll: Return to Sender, Feeding Frenzy, Perfect Balance, Flared Magwell, Send it).

Field scout takes any hand cannon to 13 shots, regardless of what they start with. Devil you Know had field scout from the vendor, which was pointless because it'd take it from 12 to 13 :-)

Ah. Guess I never noticed because TDYK was the only hand cannon I really used which had field scout.

...but it's just as random.

I've gotten quite a few Vanguard, Crucible, and Faction items from ROC strikes. I haven't gotten TDYK from it yet, but I've gotten most everything else. In fact, I've only ever bought one purple -- the rest of my marks have gone towards materials. (Oddly, I have zero rep in FWC and New Monarchy, but I've they seem perfectly happy to throw stuff in my general direction in ROC strikes. Dead Orbit, who I do have rep for, won't give me anything in strikes and will only give me engrams when I reach new levels of rep. I think I'm being headhunted.)

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I'm pretty sure rep has no impact on drops/end-of-mission rewards - they seem to be entirely random. ANY current legendary is fair game. The only drops/rewards where faction seems to matter is the items you get in reward packages. Vanguard packages always give Vanguard items (if they give anything, that is) as far as I can tell.