I read a lot of things over and over on this forum. If Cody has x amount of money, he could make a better game. If only Destiny were more like Wargame, it would live up to its promise. Destiny is boring. Destiny is repetitive. If only Destiny had theater or forge mode or custom games, it would be awesome. The investment system is the root of all evil. This post aims to respond to many of these points as concisely as possible.

Rich Cody

Cody could make a better game in his dreams, and I bet he does dream about it. Maybe he could even do it, but I doubt he could make a better AAA game. In part because money isn’t enough to attract the talent needed. They would have to relocate to LA or wherever and dedicate years to a project led by Cody who? Cody may consider himself brilliant when it comes to understanding what makes games great, but even if he did have the vision and could attract the necessary talent, does he have the wherewithal to deal with all the crap big developers have to deal with in the AAA space?

Wargame does Destiny right

Well, if you don’t mind your game being butt-ugly. There is nothing about Wargame that appeals to me aesthetically. The man hours involved in developing content for Destiny is exponentially higher, I bet, and it shows. Would Destiny be Destiny if it wasn’t expansive and weren’t jaw-dropping gorgeous? Not to me. That said, Bungie has never struck me as a studio that didn’t pay attention to what others are doing. They remind me of Apple. They often take from others, and perfect it.

Destiny should have what Halo 3 had

Launch day I played with a long-time Bungie veteran. The one thing he kept repeating was “This is the foundation—like Halo 1. We have a lot of work to do.” Theater mode and Forge are what I call perpetual promotion machines. They are fantastic in terms of adding longevity to game. I think we’ll see these kinds of features as the franchise matures. Maybe Bungie hasn't done what some would want since launch, but the amount of changes they’ve introduced is much more than we’ve seen from them before. It’s more than enough to convince me that they mean it when they say the game will evolve.

The investment system ruins a good game

Yes, it does, if you let it. But consider that you are Bungie, and you’re on top of the online gaming heap after Halo 2—for years. The money guys love longevity, and if there’s one thing that’s true, it’s that money matters in the AAA space more than ever because more pixels cost more. With each iteration of Halo, though, people played less and less. What do you do? There are ethical questions about Skinner boxes, and I won’t make a full-throated defense of Destiny’s investment system, especially in terms of its effect on people with addictive personalities, but Bungie already had a reputation for making addictive games. Are investment systems evil, the equivalent of adding nicotine to cigarettes? I don’t know, but there is another way of thinking about it. What if the core gameplay is as fun as ever, but what if, in addition to that, you have drops that are coveted and that provide another way that the game can be played differently, over time. What if the game offered a rich set of tools that changed over time, and experimenting with elements provided by these tools added longevity. Providing this kind of content regularly is doable, whereas providing new environments of Destiny’s quality is not. I think Destiny is Bungie trying to find a way, in today gaming market, to provide a platform where they can grow their product consistently and achieve their artistic goals over a long time horizon, while keeping the numbers high enough to keep the money guys interested in order the finance the whole thing.

A special word about custom games

The lack of this truly hurts Destiny and is the biggest casualty of the investment system. The calculation was probably made out of simplicity. Loot drops have to be offered for every activity, and to not have them broke the model on some level. I think that this will change as the game evolves, and certainly Bungie has witnessed the special fun that can be had when you play against your friends. I look forward to this feature almost as much as theater mode, but the latter is what I really would love. My favorite Halo metagame was always being a war correspondent.

Anyway, I remain hopeful about what Destiny can become, and I'm still enjoying the heck out of it.

Kermit

Wargame does Destiny right

Well, if you don’t mind your game being butt-ugly.

Shots fired.

You know, I don't know why I keep posting occasionally in those threads anymore. I always end up sayimg the same crap (investment and loot are bonus, game is still fun, custom games would help) and neither I, nor even dudes who write better like Narc, or sarcasm better like Claude, or the other people saying the same thing seem to change their opinions.

At the end of the day, though, I'm glad there is dissent among the ranks and people still come here to talk about it and discussions still happen.

Wargame does Destiny right

Well, if you don’t mind your game being butt-ugly.

Also the movement, shooting, spaces, enemies in Warframe simply do not compare in quality to what Destiny accomplishes.

I like to bring up suggestions or criticisms about Destiny as much as anyone else, but I also try to stress (perhaps not often enough) that I absolutely adore this game. I'm closing in on 500 hours, which I've never done in such a short period of time. I suspect that just about anyone who posts here on a regular basis is also quite fond of Destiny. Internet forums have the tendency to skew towards the negative side in a way that doesn't accurately represent everyone's overall attitude.

I'm assuming you wanted to vent more than anything else, but just in case: don't let others idea of what "fun" is affect your idea of fun.

Korny and Cody both are pretty good about not infringing on others preferences, but yes, can drone on sometimes.

Destiny has it's flaws and high points like any other game. Both sides of the fence here are valid. You remember that one Destiny review right?

Destiny is awesome.
Destiny is terrible.
Destiny is fun.
Destiny is a grind.
Destiny has variety.
Destiny is repetitive.

Destiny does look gorgeous. Destiny is also very empty.

It just comes down to how the individual plays. But you already know that ;)

Wargame does Destiny right

Well, if you don’t mind your game being butt-ugly.

Also the movement, shooting, spaces, enemies in Warframe simply do not compare in quality to what Destiny accomplishes.

Yeah, my half hour with it didn't impress, but I realize that judging it based on that is unfair.

Wargame does Destiny right

Well, if you don’t mind your game being butt-ugly.

Also the movement, shooting, spaces, enemies in Warframe simply do not compare in quality to what Destiny accomplishes.

Yeah, my half hour with it didn't impress, but I realize that judging it based on that is unfair.

That's what turned me off the game, too. I played the first mission and didn't at all enjoy the way the characters moved and controlled. Plus, as you said, it is quite ugly.

None of which discounts all the things it does right. I do believe there is a lot Destiny can and should learn from Warframe. I just can't get in to a game if I don't enjoy the way it controls. That's a deal-breaker for me.

I just can't get in to a game if I don't enjoy the way it controls. That's a deal-breaker for me.

This is what's so damn frustrating about Destiny to me. It controls BEAUTIFULLY. But there's nothing else to the gameplay. The AI sucks ballsack. The boss fights are boring and repetitive (even in raids). The crucible lacks variety and the maps are grossly imbalanced. The story is a cruel joke. The web integration is almost entirely things that should just be in the actual game. The worlds are small, exploration doesn't exist, the missions are poorly planned and unfold in a disjointed an nonsensical fashion. I could go on, but you get my point.

It's so frustrating to me. I love, love the feel of moving through the space, lining up a shot, and taking a baddie down with extreme prejudice.

But I hate almost everything else about the game.

It's what gives me the constant sense of "they could change it and it would be AMAZING" but the fact of the matter is that Bungie is "evolving" this game at a snail's pace, and focusing on perceived exploits over bugs, and offering only minor improvements in the core play and design. When I play, I'm constantly asking myself if anyone at bungie has actually played Destiny. That's sad. They claim to make games that they want to play, but instead they seem to have made a game engine that they want someone with creative vision to turn into a full blown game.

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To me, it all boils down to "Destiny is pretty bad, but I love playing it", while "Warframe is amazing, but it burnt out VERY fast"

I read a lot of things over and over on this forum. If Cody has x amount of money, he could make a better game. If only Destiny were more like Wargame, it would live up to its promise. Destiny is boring. Destiny is repetitive. If only Destiny had theater or forge mode or custom games, it would be awesome. The investment system is the root of all evil. This post aims to respond to many of these points as concisely as possible.

Rich Cody

Cody could make a better game in his dreams, and I bet he does dream about it. Maybe he could even do it, but I doubt he could make a better AAA game. In part because money isn’t enough to attract the talent needed. They would have to relocate to LA or wherever and dedicate years to a project led by Cody who? Cody may consider himself brilliant when it comes to understanding what makes games great, but even if he did have the vision and could attract the necessary talent, does he have the wherewithal to deal with all the crap big developers have to deal with in the AAA space?

Wargame does Destiny right

Well, if you don’t mind your game being butt-ugly. There is nothing about Wargame that appeals to me aesthetically. The man hours involved in developing content for Destiny is exponentially higher, I bet, and it shows. Would Destiny be Destiny if it wasn’t expansive and weren’t jaw-dropping gorgeous? Not to me. That said, Bungie has never struck me as a studio that didn’t pay attention to what others are doing. They remind me of Apple. They often take from others, and perfect it.

Destiny should have what Halo 3 had

Launch day I played with a long-time Bungie veteran. The one thing he kept repeating was “This is the foundation—like Halo 1. We have a lot of work to do.” Theater mode and Forge are what I call perpetual promotion machines. They are fantastic in terms of adding longevity to game. I think we’ll see these kinds of features as the franchise matures. Maybe Bungie hasn't done what some would want since launch, but the amount of changes they’ve introduced is much more than we’ve seen from them before. It’s more than enough to convince me that they mean it when they say the game will evolve.

The investment system ruins a good game

Yes, it does, if you let it. But consider that you are Bungie, and you’re on top of the online gaming heap after Halo 2—for years. The money guys love longevity, and if there’s one thing that’s true, it’s that money matters in the AAA space more than ever because more pixels cost more. With each iteration of Halo, though, people played less and less. What do you do? There are ethical questions about Skinner boxes, and I won’t make a full-throated defense of Destiny’s investment system, especially in terms of its effect on people with addictive personalities, but Bungie already had a reputation for making addictive games. Are investment systems evil, the equivalent of adding nicotine to cigarettes? I don’t know, but there is another way of thinking about it. What if the core gameplay is as fun as ever, but what if, in addition to that, you have drops that are coveted and that provide another way that the game can be played differently, over time. What if the game offered a rich set of tools that changed over time, and experimenting with elements provided by these tools added longevity. Providing this kind of content regularly is doable, whereas providing new environments of Destiny’s quality is not. I think Destiny is Bungie trying to find a way, in today gaming market, to provide a platform where they can grow their product consistently and achieve their artistic goals over a long time horizon, while keeping the numbers high enough to keep the money guys interested in order the finance the whole thing.

A special word about custom games

The lack of this truly hurts Destiny and is the biggest casualty of the investment system. The calculation was probably made out of simplicity. Loot drops have to be offered for every activity, and to not have them broke the model on some level. I think that this will change as the game evolves, and certainly Bungie has witnessed the special fun that can be had when you play against your friends. I look forward to this feature almost as much as theater mode, but the latter is what I really would love. My favorite Halo metagame was always being a war correspondent.

Anyway, I remain hopeful about what Destiny can become, and I'm still enjoying the heck out of it.

Kermit

Good post, Kerm. (And greetings from Cleveland, Ohio! We made it back!)

Games are hard, man. Just track the life of a title like Mass Effect, or if you want to keep it in-house, Halo 1, 2, 3, ODST, Reach, and now Destiny. They all build on what was there before, but the balance is really tough and sometimes stuff falls through cracks.

Though, the fact Destiny is so gorgeous and plays SO well (Titanfall level good), I'd say it's got a promising future.

And best of all, plenty of fun to have until then.

Wargame does Destiny right

Well, if you don’t mind your game being butt-ugly.

Also the movement, shooting, spaces, enemies in Warframe simply do not compare in quality to what Destiny accomplishes.

Yeah, my half hour with it didn't impress, but I realize that judging it based on that is unfair.

But it's not really. You should be having fun right away. If a game "doesn't get good until later" that means it's designed improperly. And why play a boring game to just have fun later, when you could play a game that's fun from the start?

Hope to see you soon.

Thanks! So much still to do. Should be back on Live before we all know it.

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But it's not really. You should be having fun right away. If a game "doesn't get good until later" that means it's designed improperly. And why play a boring game to just have fun later, when you could play a game that's fun from the start?

Haven't you done anything in life that was really challenging, perhaps no fun at all at first, only to then reap the benefits and enjoyment of that work later? There is so much of life that works this way!

I can think of a lot of examples but I'll just share one. I'm a guitarist. It took me over 6 months to get a chord ring out easily as I developed the callouses and the hand strength. If I hadn't gotten through that, I would have never wrote a song and made a few albums. That was totally worth it. But I meet people every day who quit before they got through the first 6 months. It really saddens me.

I'm not saying games have to be that way, and frankly, far be it for me to try and say how to design a great game. I have no idea. But some things in life are enjoyable only after you've invested more time than any sane person ever would. Lack of hardship is not the cornerstone of a good game or a good life.

Wargame does Destiny right

Well, if you don’t mind your game being butt-ugly.

Also the movement, shooting, spaces, enemies in Warframe simply do not compare in quality to what Destiny accomplishes.

Yeah, my half hour with it didn't impress, but I realize that judging it based on that is unfair.

But it's not really. You should be having fun right away. If a game "doesn't get good until later" that means it's designed improperly. And why play a boring game to just have fun later, when you could play a game that's fun from the start?

I say it depends on the game. I know someone, for instance, who wasn't impressed with the Last of Us until about halfway through (and never really liked the game mechanics), but at that point his pace and enjoyment picked up simply because he wanted to find out what happened to the characters. (That he didn't seem to care after the first 20 minutes is a mystery to me, but there you go.)

Life being a limited time engagement, I generally agree with your point when it comes to movies, music, books, and games. There are already too many great things to experience without pushing yourself through something that isn't making an immediate good impression. There's always going to be that slow-burn exception, though, when the time you "wasted" proves, dramatically, not to be a waste.

Y'all should be seeing each other IRL in about a week and a half! Which I point out here for the purely selfish reason that neither of you have responded to the survey I sent last week relating to the LAN ;-)

If a game "doesn't get good until later" that means it's designed improperly. And why play a boring game to just have fun later, when you could play a game that's fun from the start?

Some of my favorite albums are ones that take a long time to "get." Part of that comes down to that fact that our brains require a bit of time to adjust to things that are new. In the case of music, if you aren't familiar with a genre, or a related genre, your brain literally cannot hear all of the nuances and appreciate what you are hearing. Most of your brain is at work trying to make sense out of what you hear as noise. This is why most people don't switch genres that often. Familiarity is built subconsciously over time and eventually you get competent. At that point you can decide whether you actually like something more fairly. This all happens without us knowing it. Sometimes we hear something brand new and we like it right away, other times it takes work and pays off. This usually has to do with what we've been primed to like based on our life experiences and it is why classical music listeners hear rock as just noise. It is at the heart of why most western music listeners cannot immediately appreciate all of the "extra notes" in Indian music, which sound cacophonous.

I think this same phenomena applies to a lot of different areas of our lives. Sometimes, you need to be primed to understand something, and it is worth sticking it out. That is why I've learned to trust certain people's judgments, even if my initial experience is different. Sometimes we need to learn how to have fun in a new way.

I say it depends on the game. I know someone, for instance, who wasn't impressed with the Last of Us until about halfway through (and never really liked the game mechanics), but at that point his pace and enjoyment picked up simply because he wanted to find out what happened to the characters. (That he didn't seem to care after the first 20 minutes is a mystery to me, but there you go.)

It's not an issue of finding the characters interesting, it's an issue of being entertained by the flow of their narrative. When the seasons start to change halfway through is when the game really starts to pay off on its setups; you can just feel the narrative cogs start to turn as even the visual palette finally begins to get mixed up.

Not that you could help things out by simply cutting content; all of the first-act content that ND included has a reason to be there. I think the most extreme case of this sort of issue that I've seen was with the film Ikiru; first two thirds are sluggish and bordering on boring, but the final act wouldn't have a thousandth of the massive payoff it does without them.

That form didn't work at all for me.

I just sent my answers without using the form.

Typical old man, having trouble with technology, huh? ;-)

I'll plug your answers into the spreadsheet, and as you suggested I will be starting a group email chain soon so we can start introducing ourselves and discuss various things. Mainly waiting on Macphisto + wife to fill out the form, and to hear back from Cody on whether he can make it (supposedly he'll have that answer today).

Typical old man, having trouble with technology, huh? ;-)

Dude, this old man does usability testing. Specifically, if viewing that e-mail in Chrome open to icloud.com's mail viewer, and you press the space twice while typing in a field, the e-mail goes to your trash.

I'll plug your answers into the spreadsheet, and as you suggested I will be starting a group email chain soon so we can start introducing ourselves and discuss various things. Mainly waiting on Macphisto + wife to fill out the form, and to hear back from Cody on whether he can make it (supposedly he'll have that answer today).

Fingers crossed that all can attend.

Haven't you done anything in life that was really challenging, perhaps no fun at all at first, only to then reap the benefits and enjoyment of that work later? There is so much of life that works this way!

No actually. I learned how to salsa over the past year. It was really hard at first, and it was a challenge, but that was actually FUN. I can't think of a time when starting an activity that I was bad at that I didn't find the act of learning it fun.

Yeah, my half hour with it didn't impress, but I realize that judging it based on that is unfair.

But it's not really. You should be having fun right away. If a game "doesn't get good until later" that means it's designed improperly. And why play a boring game to just have fun later, when you could play a game that's fun from the start?

Because sometimes it takes a while to get a proper feel for a game that you initially dislike. Like, have you ever tried a game, decided it's a "massive disappointment", sold it, then had to turn around and get a funny look when you rebuy it after you learned that your first impression was wrong? ;)

Because sometimes it takes a while to get a proper feel for a game that you initially dislike. Like, have you ever tried a game, decided it's a "massive disappointment", sold it, then had to turn around and get a funny look when you rebuy it after you learned that your first impression was wrong? ;)

Yes…

Because sometimes it takes a while to get a proper feel for a game that you initially dislike. Like, have you ever tried a game, decided it's a "massive disappointment", sold it, then had to turn around and get a funny look when you rebuy it after you learned that your first impression was wrong? ;)

Yes…

Are you talking about Beyond: Two Souls? Just curious.

Ok. Well, I would just suggest then that you keep in mind that there are people out there who do do activities that they don't find initially fun. They might do this out of passion, out of hope, out of sheer persistence. I don't think these people are gluttons for punishment, but perhaps more willing to endure a struggle or give something more time to grow on them.

And kudos on salsa dancing, it is tough. I've done it a few times and it was fun, even if I only knew a move or two.

Haven't you done anything in life that was really challenging, perhaps no fun at all at first, only to then reap the benefits and enjoyment of that work later? There is so much of life that works this way!

No actually. I learned how to salsa over the past year. It was really hard at first, and it was a challenge, but that was actually FUN. I can't think of a time when starting an activity that I was bad at that I didn't find the act of learning it fun.

As a former avid Lindy-Hop/East Coast Swing enthusiast, why did you go with Salsa instead of some other dance? I took a Salsa lesson or two, but I didn't pursue it. Was that because it wasn't fun? No, but it wasn't fun enough, or more fun than the other dances.

In games, there are few times where I hate a game so much that I'd rather be, say, giving my cat a bath. Instead, what I really mean is that the game isn't nearly as fun as any number of other games I'd rather be playing.

As a former avid Lindy-Hop/East Coast Swing enthusiast, why did you go with Salsa instead of some other dance?

1. It is awesome.
2. There is a huge scene in LA.

As a former avid Lindy-Hop/East Coast Swing enthusiast, why did you go with Salsa instead of some other dance?

1. It is awesome.
2. There is a huge scene in LA.

Have to say, I enjoy Salsa more than just about all other ballroom dances (partial to Jive), both in and out of a ballroom studio; Salsa is especially adaptable to location as well, and the East coast salsa clubs I've been to feel and dance quite differently than the West Coast ones. Spanish Salsa clubs are especially fun.

Now I feel like ranking ballroom dances.

1. Jive
2. Salsa
3. Viennese Waltz
4. Samba
5. Hustle (sort of counts?)
6. Everything else

I'm quite partial to "standing in the corner and not feeling the beat at all", myself.

Except when the "beat" is exactly the sort of thing most people don't feel. Then my body tries as hard as it can to make me feel awkward.

But it's not really. You should be having fun right away. If a game "doesn't get good until later" that means it's designed improperly. And why play a boring game to just have fun later, when you could play a game that's fun from the start?

Haven't you done anything in life that was really challenging, perhaps no fun at all at first, only to then reap the benefits and enjoyment of that work later? There is so much of life that works this way!

I can think of a lot of examples but I'll just share one. I'm a guitarist. It took me over 6 months to get a chord ring out easily as I developed the callouses and the hand strength. If I hadn't gotten through that, I would have never wrote a song and made a few albums. That was totally worth it. But I meet people every day who quit before they got through the first 6 months. It really saddens me.

I'm not saying games have to be that way, and frankly, far be it for me to try and say how to design a great game. I have no idea. But some things in life are enjoyable only after you've invested more time than any sane person ever would. Lack of hardship is not the cornerstone of a good game or a good life.

I think the distinction (at least for me) is that playing a guitar is a skill, an expression, an art form, a creative outlet, etc. Now videogames are of course many different things to each of us, but generally speaking, they are games. Activities that we engage in specifically to have fun. When I put thousands of hours I to learning how to play guitar, some of it was fun, some of it was very much NOT. But I was dedicated to it because I was learning a skill, something that would lead to a lot of enjoyment and creative expression for me.

Now Destiny is not like most games for me, because I've dedicated such a massive amount if time to it. It can be stressful or frustrating at times, but I stick with it because I'm progressing towards enjoyable goals. The only reason I put up with the brief lows is because the high marks are so damn fun, it makes it worthwhile for me.

But most games... If I'm not having fun RIGHT AWAY, I put them down. After all, I'm playing them to have fun. If I'm thinking to myself "I would be having more fun if I were playing Destiny or Titanfall right now", then I shut it off and go play Destiny or Titanfall.

"Mommy, why don't those bad men like Bungie? Bungie is good!" *cries*

I read a lot of things over and over on this forum. If Cody has x amount of money, he could make a better game. If only Destiny were more like Warframe, it would live up to its promise. Destiny is boring. Destiny is repetitive. If only Destiny had theater or forge mode or custom games, it would be awesome. The investment system is the root of all evil. This post aims to respond to many of these points as concisely as possible.

Rich Cody

Cody could make a better game in his dreams, and I bet he does dream about it. Maybe he could even do it, but I doubt he could make a better AAA game. In part because money isn’t enough to attract the talent needed. They would have to relocate to LA or wherever and dedicate years to a project led by Cody who? Cody may consider himself brilliant when it comes to understanding what makes games great, but even if he did have the vision and could attract the necessary talent, does he have the wherewithal to deal with all the crap big developers have to deal with in the AAA space?

Cody couldn't do it. He never could, nor will he...
But he believes it's not being done right either, and people like him are important. They bring doubt. Doubt is healthy, and highlights things that could be looked into for revision and/or improvement.

Warframe does Destiny right

Well, if you don’t mind your game being butt-ugly. There is nothing about Wargame that appeals to me aesthetically. The man hours involved in developing content for Destiny is exponentially higher, I bet, and it shows. Would Destiny be Destiny if it wasn’t expansive and weren’t jaw-dropping gorgeous? Not to me. That said, Bungie has never struck me as a studio that didn’t pay attention to what others are doing.

I'm more of a "Substance Over Style" kind of guy. And Warframe's unique art style is a breath of fresh air in a world where sleek (Mass Effect) and generic (Destiny) rule the day. But I wouldn't use "Expansive" and "jaw-dropping gorgeous" to describe Destiny. I think Mars may be the only area bigger than Halo 1's AotCR map, and only Mars has hints of an open-ended approach to things. Everything else is narrow, or open-but empty. No vehicular encounters, zero verticality, zero substance.

As for "jaw-dropping gorgeous", I like the style of the game, but most of it is pointless, empty space. Destiny is an example of too much work and time dedicated to very little substance, especially when a lot of it looks Forged together (and don't get me started on that Ember Caves ramp)...

They remind me of Apple. They often take from others, and perfect it.

No, they take what's worked for them and improve upon it. And that was great. Reach was the peak of their own style. Destiny, on the other hand, is a checklist of tricks to make people play longer, and the game is designed around that philosophy.

I WISH Bungie was like Apple, which is why I highlight areas that could be improved by looking at how other games do everything much neater and better. I could make countless videos of things that Warframe does better, but I have thus far kept it concise and focused. But let's take a quick gander at things Destiny sucks at that Warframe doesn't:

Classes-
Destiny: "Which of these three characters should I pick?" "Eh, they're mostly the same except for their Supers and jumps, but they have two different supers that you can pick."
Warframe: "Whoah, 23 different characters? All with unique playstyles!?" "Not just that, but you can give each one a completely different build, to focus on different strengths and weaknesses!" "HNNNNNNNGGGG!!!"

Inventory-
Destiny: "Do I have that weapon on my character? No. Crap. Gotta go to the tower. Crap it's not in my vault, gotta change character. Okay, I think this character has it. Thank God, okay, back to the tower... No room to swap? Dang it!"
Warframe: "Gotta change my loadout." *Loadout 4: "T4 Defense"*, "Okay, ready!"

Trade-
Destiny:"I wish I had a Hawkmoon, and you have three!?" "Darn shame, friend."
Warframe:"I wish I had a Nova Prime!" "No problem, I have an extra set!"

Item acquisition-
Destiny: "I've run the raids and Nightfall 100 times, and all I've gotten are shards and engrams that turn into more shards!"
Warframe: *Opens chat* "I want to build a Nekros! How do I get it?" "OD Assassination is guaranteed to drop his parts, I can help you run it!"
OR *opens clan chat* "I need an Intensify for more damage, where can I get one?" "I've got one, buddy! Want this Flow for more energy as well?"

Customization-
Destiny:"All I have are ugly shaders and I still don't have a raid hemet."
Warframe: Whoah, you can customize EVERYTHING! Oh look, free Holiday color pack! Sweet!"

Team-building-
Destiny:"I need people to carry me through the raid." "Just go to the tower and spam invites."
Warframe: "I need people to carry me through a T4 capture." *opens Recruit chat* "Hosting T4 Cap, pm me for invite!" *flooded with requests*

Passing time-
Destiny: "Uh, anybody want to do the Daily story? No? Okay... Wanna kick the ball in the tower? No? Okay..."
Warframe: "While I wait for them to finish that Survival Mission... Should I improve my Clan leaderboard scores on Wyrmius, Flappy Zephyr, Clan Obstacle Course, or practice my Mastery tests?"

I could really go on...

Destiny should have what Halo 3 had

Launch day I played with a long-time Bungie veteran. The one thing he kept repeating was “This is the foundation—like Halo 1. We have a lot of work to do.” Theater mode and Forge are what I call perpetual promotion machines. They are fantastic in terms of adding longevity to game. I think we’ll see these kinds of features as the franchise matures. Maybe Bungie hasn't done what some would want since launch, but the amount of changes they’ve introduced is much more than we’ve seen from them before. It’s more than enough to convince me that they mean it when they say the game will evolve.

Wrong. If a bare-bones map pack and flip-flopping balance changes are "much more than we’ve seen from them before", then either you have a skewed idea of what content is, or I have a wrong idea of what Bungie did in the past, because if this is "more" than firefight, Forge, Theater, Customs, Campaign scoring, skulls, file sharing, and Action sack, then there's clearly something I'm missing.
Remember, I was literally the first guy to run around throwing the word "foundation release" when the game came out. But that was with the understanding that we'd get more from Bungie. That they would communicate and make changes that were needed from Alpha stage... But seven months down the road, and they were teasing about big changes, only to reveal some colorblind options and the ability to lower one channel of volume? GTFO, Bungie.

The investment system ruins a good game

Yes, it does, if you let it. But consider that you are Bungie, and you’re on top of the online gaming heap after Halo 2—for years. The money guys love longevity, and if there’s one thing that’s true, it’s that money matters in the AAA space more than ever because more pixels cost more. With each iteration of Halo, though, people played less and less. What do you do? There are ethical questions about Skinner boxes, and I won’t make a full-throated defense of Destiny’s investment system, especially in terms of its effect on people with addictive personalities, but Bungie already had a reputation for making addictive games. Are investment systems evil, the equivalent of adding nicotine to cigarettes? I don’t know, but there is another way of thinking about it. What if the core gameplay is as fun as ever, but what if, in addition to that, you have drops that are coveted and that provide another way that the game can be played differently, over time. What if the game offered a rich set of tools that changed over time, and experimenting with elements provided by these tools added longevity. Providing this kind of content regularly is doable, whereas providing new environments of Destiny’s quality is not. I think Destiny is Bungie trying to find a way, in today gaming market, to provide a platform where they can grow their product consistently and achieve their artistic goals over a long time horizon, while keeping the numbers high enough to keep the money guys interested in order the finance the whole thing.

And they're doing a lousy job. A really lousy job. The best way to keep people interested, given the MMO style of the game, would be to release morsels of content. A new MP map. A new gametype (Inferno is just regular Control without radar. Whoop dee doo), community events (remember Queen's Wrath? I remember Queen's Wrath. Remember Trials of Osiris? Oh wait), and maybe some more weapons or shaders at least. But no.

Oh wait, they've actually REMOVED content!
Remember Bastion, or First Light? Remember when we had those maps?

A special word about custom games

The lack of this truly hurts Destiny and is the biggest casualty of the investment system. The calculation was probably made out of simplicity. Loot drops have to be offered for every activity, and to not have them broke the model on some level. I think that this will change as the game evolves, and certainly Bungie has witnessed the special fun that can be had when you play against your friends. I look forward to this feature almost as much as theater mode, but the latter is what I really would love. My favorite Halo metagame was always being a war correspondent.

That's right, Kermit. Just take that flimsy defense. You just take it, and wrap it around you like a warm blanket. Feels good, huh?

"Guys, Bungie cut custom games, but that's okay! Because maybe one day we'll have it! I mean, I know they've said that they have no plans for it, but remember all the fun we had?" -Kermit

Anyway, I remain hopeful about what Destiny can become, and I'm still enjoying the heck out of it.

Heck, I played it all week, but now that IB is done, I have zero incentive to play anything besides Crucible (and I have many other fun games to play instead). I even skipped a week of Nightfall, didn't bother to glance in Xur's direction, and turned down a few DBOer invites to run Crucible/IB.

The game got stale, as games with 300+ hours in them are wont to do.

I understand that it hurts to hear that someone thinks that Bungie isn't perfect, Kermit, but the truth is that they can do wrong. And they have, but I still love Bungie. That's why they frustrate me (and others). I want to see them succeed, and that's why I make a point to try to show them the way in my own small way.

I pretty much agree with everyone Korny said, except I've never played Warframe. But the issues with Destiny are all nailed down pat.

Some good, thought-provoking stuff in this response, Korny, once I weeded out the snark and personal jabs.

That said... drinking ocean water can kill you.

That said... drinking ocean water can kill you.

Was expecting a video of someone bm'ing in a crucible match...need to spend less time on the internet.

First a note: SGG = snarky gratuituous guff

"Mommy, why don't those bad men like Bungie? Bungie is good!" *cries*

SGG

I read a lot of things over and over on this forum. If Cody has x amount of money, he could make a better game. If only Destiny were more like Warframe, it would live up to its promise. Destiny is boring. Destiny is repetitive. If only Destiny had theater or forge mode or custom games, it would be awesome. The investment system is the root of all evil. This post aims to respond to many of these points as concisely as possible.

Rich Cody

Cody could make a better game in his dreams, and I bet he does dream about it. Maybe he could even do it, but I doubt he could make a better AAA game. In part because money isn’t enough to attract the talent needed. They would have to relocate to LA or wherever and dedicate years to a project led by Cody who? Cody may consider himself brilliant when it comes to understanding what makes games great, but even if he did have the vision and could attract the necessary talent, does he have the wherewithal to deal with all the crap big developers have to deal with in the AAA space?

Cody couldn't do it. He never could, nor will he...
But he believes it's not being done right either, and people like him are important. They bring doubt. Doubt is healthy, and highlights things that could be looked into for revision and/or improvement.

I don't disagree. I don't think you disagree with what my point was.

Warframe does Destiny right

Well, if you don’t mind your game being butt-ugly. There is nothing about Wargame that appeals to me aesthetically. The man hours involved in developing content for Destiny is exponentially higher, I bet, and it shows. Would Destiny be Destiny if it wasn’t expansive and weren’t jaw-dropping gorgeous? Not to me. That said, Bungie has never struck me as a studio that didn’t pay attention to what others are doing.

I'm more of a "Substance Over Style" kind of guy. And Warframe's unique art style is a breath of fresh air in a world where sleek (Mass Effect) and generic (Destiny) rule the day. But I wouldn't use "Expansive" and "jaw-dropping gorgeous" to describe Destiny. I think Mars may be the only area bigger than Halo 1's AotCR map, and only Mars has hints of an open-ended approach to things. Everything else is narrow, or open-but empty. No vehicular encounters, zero verticality, zero substance.

As for "jaw-dropping gorgeous", I like the style of the game, but most of it is pointless, empty space. Destiny is an example of too much work and time dedicated to very little substance, especially when a lot of it looks Forged together (and don't get me started on that Ember Caves ramp)...

They remind me of Apple. They often take from others, and perfect it.

No, they take what's worked for them and improve upon it. And that was great. Reach was the peak of their own style. Destiny, on the other hand, is a checklist of tricks to make people play longer, and the game is designed around that philosophy.

I WISH Bungie was like Apple, which is why I highlight areas that could be improved by looking at how other games do everything much neater and better. I could make countless videos of things that Warframe does better, but I have thus far kept it concise and focused. But let's take a quick gander at things Destiny sucks at that Warframe doesn't:

Classes-
Destiny: "Which of these three characters should I pick?" "Eh, they're mostly the same except for their Supers and jumps, but they have two different supers that you can pick."
Warframe: "Whoah, 23 different characters? All with unique playstyles!?" "Not just that, but you can give each one a completely different build, to focus on different strengths and weaknesses!" "HNNNNNNNGGGG!!!"

Inventory-
Destiny: "Do I have that weapon on my character? No. Crap. Gotta go to the tower. Crap it's not in my vault, gotta change character. Okay, I think this character has it. Thank God, okay, back to the tower... No room to swap? Dang it!"
Warframe: "Gotta change my loadout." *Loadout 4: "T4 Defense"*, "Okay, ready!"

Trade-
Destiny:"I wish I had a Hawkmoon, and you have three!?" "Darn shame, friend."
Warframe:"I wish I had a Nova Prime!" "No problem, I have an extra set!"

Item acquisition-
Destiny: "I've run the raids and Nightfall 100 times, and all I've gotten are shards and engrams that turn into more shards!"
Warframe: *Opens chat* "I want to build a Nekros! How do I get it?" "OD Assassination is guaranteed to drop his parts, I can help you run it!"
OR *opens clan chat* "I need an Intensify for more damage, where can I get one?" "I've got one, buddy! Want this Flow for more energy as well?"

Customization-
Destiny:"All I have are ugly shaders and I still don't have a raid hemet."
Warframe: Whoah, you can customize EVERYTHING! Oh look, free Holiday color pack! Sweet!"

Team-building-
Destiny:"I need people to carry me through the raid." "Just go to the tower and spam invites."
Warframe: "I need people to carry me through a T4 capture." *opens Recruit chat* "Hosting T4 Cap, pm me for invite!" *flooded with requests*

Passing time-
Destiny: "Uh, anybody want to do the Daily story? No? Okay... Wanna kick the ball in the tower? No? Okay..."
Warframe: "While I wait for them to finish that Survival Mission... Should I improve my Clan leaderboard scores on Wyrmius, Flappy Zephyr, Clan Obstacle Course, or practice my Mastery tests?"

I could really go on...

A lot of SGG in there.

I said that I'm sure Bungie is paying attention, and I trust them to take inspiration from Warframe where it suits Destiny, and probably come up with some cool stuff on their own, if the past is any indication. Destiny has several important strengths that Warframe doesn't have, though, as other people have said in this thread. These strengths have costs associated with them. For example, not having procedurally generated environments means it takes more resources to generate new content.

Destiny should have what Halo 3 had

Launch day I played with a long-time Bungie veteran. The one thing he kept repeating was “This is the foundation—like Halo 1. We have a lot of work to do.” Theater mode and Forge are what I call perpetual promotion machines. They are fantastic in terms of adding longevity to game. I think we’ll see these kinds of features as the franchise matures. Maybe Bungie hasn't done what some would want since launch, but the amount of changes they’ve introduced is much more than we’ve seen from them before. It’s more than enough to convince me that they mean it when they say the game will evolve.

Wrong. If a bare-bones map pack and flip-flopping balance changes are "much more than we’ve seen from them before", then either you have a skewed idea of what content is, or I have a wrong idea of what Bungie did in the past, because if this is "more" than firefight, Forge, Theater, Customs, Campaign scoring, skulls, file sharing, and Action sack, then there's clearly something I'm missing.

You are missing something. If I had said "at this point in the game's life cycle," would that have been clearer?

Remember, I was literally the first guy to run around throwing the word "foundation release" when the game came out. But that was with the understanding that we'd get more from Bungie. That they would communicate and make changes that were needed from Alpha stage... But seven months down the road, and they were teasing about big changes, only to reveal some colorblind options and the ability to lower one channel of volume? GTFO, Bungie.

SGG. You were LITERALLY THE FIRST GUY? Wow. Do you honestly expect feature sets like you're describing to appear before the expansion packs are done? The majority of the work they're doing now was scoped before the game came out. I'm saying that I think we can expect the kind of innovation we saw in the later Halo games in the later Destiny games. I don't know why that's so troubling. I think it's realistic.

The investment system ruins a good game

Yes, it does, if you let it. But consider that you are Bungie, and you’re on top of the online gaming heap after Halo 2—for years. The money guys love longevity, and if there’s one thing that’s true, it’s that money matters in the AAA space more than ever because more pixels cost more. With each iteration of Halo, though, people played less and less. What do you do? There are ethical questions about Skinner boxes, and I won’t make a full-throated defense of Destiny’s investment system, especially in terms of its effect on people with addictive personalities, but Bungie already had a reputation for making addictive games. Are investment systems evil, the equivalent of adding nicotine to cigarettes? I don’t know, but there is another way of thinking about it. What if the core gameplay is as fun as ever, but what if, in addition to that, you have drops that are coveted and that provide another way that the game can be played differently, over time. What if the game offered a rich set of tools that changed over time, and experimenting with elements provided by these tools added longevity. Providing this kind of content regularly is doable, whereas providing new environments of Destiny’s quality is not. I think Destiny is Bungie trying to find a way, in today gaming market, to provide a platform where they can grow their product consistently and achieve their artistic goals over a long time horizon, while keeping the numbers high enough to keep the money guys interested in order the finance the whole thing.

And they're doing a lousy job. A really lousy job. The best way to keep people interested, given the MMO style of the game, would be to release morsels of content. A new MP map. A new gametype (Inferno is just regular Control without radar. Whoop dee doo), community events (remember Queen's Wrath? I remember Queen's Wrath. Remember Trials of Osiris? Oh wait), and maybe some more weapons or shaders at least. But no.

Obviously, Queen's Wrath didn't work out as well as they hoped. They've said as much.

Oh wait, they've actually REMOVED content!
Remember Bastion, or First Light? Remember when we had those maps?

A special word about custom games

The lack of this truly hurts Destiny and is the biggest casualty of the investment system. The calculation was probably made out of simplicity. Loot drops have to be offered for every activity, and to not have them broke the model on some level. I think that this will change as the game evolves, and certainly Bungie has witnessed the special fun that can be had when you play against your friends. I look forward to this feature almost as much as theater mode, but the latter is what I really would love. My favorite Halo metagame was always being a war correspondent.

That's right, Kermit. Just take that flimsy defense. You just take it, and wrap it around you like a warm blanket. Feels good, huh?

SGG.

"Guys, Bungie cut custom games, but that's okay! Because maybe one day we'll have it! I mean, I know they've said that they have no plans for it, but remember all the fun we had?" -Kermit

SGG. BTW, I was thinking of the Bungie Bounties. I think it'd be crazy for Bungie to not find a way to allow these competitive experiences in the future.

Anyway, I remain hopeful about what Destiny can become, and I'm still enjoying the heck out of it.

Heck, I played it all week, but now that IB is done, I have zero incentive to play anything besides Crucible (and I have many other fun games to play instead). I even skipped a week of Nightfall, didn't bother to glance in Xur's direction, and turned down a few DBOer invites to run Crucible/IB.

The game got stale, as games with 300+ hours in them are wont to do.

Well, of course.

I understand that it hurts to hear that someone thinks that Bungie isn't perfect, Kermit, but the truth is that they can do wrong.

SGG

And they have, but I still love Bungie. That's why they frustrate me (and others). I want to see them succeed, and that's why I make a point to try to show them the way in my own small way.

I think they're listening, and I wouldn't say they don't need us, but I'd be shocked if they didn't already have the same criticisms of their own game, and weren't debating the best ways to improve it right now.

I want the game to be better, too, and my post was to point out some of the obstacles and challenges involved with making a big expensive game that people actually play and that actually makes money. I think armchair game developers often overlook these things. Making and improving a game takes resources, and these resources are finite. You also can't add X and not expect it to affect the Y thing that you already like. Destiny is the most complex game they've made systemically. They could break what works if they're not careful. Some would argue they already have in small ways (e.g., materials for marks, etc.)

Lastly, I feel sad when I have take a defensive posture while being a fan of Bungie here of all places. (Was Reach the turning point on Bungie.org sites? I don't know. It depresses me.) My post was meant to be hopeful, positive, and realistic about the future--a future that I realize won't arrive next week. If someone can suggest a Bungie fan site where I can go and not be ridiculed for trying to give them the benefit of a doubt, I'd be interested.

A personal note to you, Korny. I love you when you are a positive influence, but as a critic, you can be downright mean. I've given up trying to understand why.