What if your invitation to the Trials of Osiris or Prison of Elders came in the form of a new weapon? Or piece of armor? Perhaps make it so you must wear or wield it to gain entry. Thus, you get some of the great gear before the event, a chance to use it elsewhere before taking it to the place it was ultimately designed for.

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You make a good point about the hardest content giving out the most effective gear being illogical.

I think PoE could fix this, even if it is a firefight-like activity:

Let's suppose that the way PoE works is that you have to fight through waves of enemies in randomised environments, and upon completing a wave receive loot and move on to a new environment with more difficult enemies then the last. However, the "Nightfall" modifier applies, so if your team wipes, you have to start all over again from Wave 1. Each wave tier's loot drop behaves similarly to how they do in raids, so you get 1 "wave 1" drop per week, 1 "wave 2" drop, etc. Getting to the final waves will be VERY difficult, especially just after the expansion drops and we haven't upgraded our gear yet.

As a summary, we're not expected to "finish" the Prison of elders every week, just get as far as we can and use our drops to improve our gear so we can do better and better every week, and eventually hit those final waves.

As to rewards:
Give out the "more effective" gear as rewards for completing earlier, easier "waves", that you can upgrade and eventually use to give you an edge on the later, harder waves. The rewards for these harder waves will be things like bonus etheral light and brag-worthy shaders and class-items.

With rerolling guns, you basically just need one of each type rolled to be perfect. Just one shotgun with great rolls, one HC, and so on. The crucible is going to be 100% full auto pulse rifles and shotguns with rangefinder and shot package. Mini MIRV and homing on all the rockets.

Every new drop is going to be like "yeah, it's all right, but I have literally a perfect version of this with two reload perks and field scout anyway." Then you will disassemble it.

And you won't run out of motes because everything you own can be turned in for more. I have 150 motes. I could reroll 5 guns to perfection with that. Then, I would just turn in 600 shards and do it again twice. Then turn in 600 energy and do it again twice. I'll only be playing my exact custom rolls, exactly the same, on all my characters, and it will be quick, especially when I also have a backlog of OLD perfectly rolled guns kept by virtue of their great rolls that I can upgrade.

It wouldn't be right if I were completely satisfied, would it? :-p

My concern is that too much of the House of Wolves experience will revolve around grinding to upgrade, with not a lot of new things to do, and the activities that are there mainly being there to service the grind.

So far almost the entirety of the information we have is on
1. Gear
2. How to upgrade gear

We have no big reveals on the content yet, so of course everything we know about HoW is upgrade centric!

I've always wondered what was the point of having great weapons drop from end game content. So you've just done the hardest content in the game. But then, what do you need the best guns for? If I'm running Prison of Elders every week, and doing Trials of Osiris already, why would I need the new guns? There's a reason you don't get the best stuff from the hardest optional bosses in JPRGs; the game makes them so hard that you have to use your best stuff to defeat them!

Okay, this is a good point, but is it all that uncommon? Perhaps it's not in JRPGs but in games like Diablo and Borderlands (my experience is limited) good weapons dropped on final bosses.

The other thing not to forget is that there is in fact two tiers to the Raids. You can get almost all the "best gear" from running the normal raid, which if you're an average player you'll need to do in order to acquire the final bragging right of beating it on Legendary.

I can't imagine Trials of Osiris being a single difficulty, or if it is, I can't imagine it being limited in a way that makes it "beatable". If there is a single starting difficulty than I wold expect enemies to become progressively higher level and more difficult, making the bragging right (and the desire for better guns) be that you can make it further through the Trials.

I'm just worried that the ability to upgrade old gear is going to replace content that could have been in the game to spend time on instead. I foresee the story missions being easy, and the poor storytelling continuing. This leaves Prison of Elders, which I cannot possibly imagine being as challenging as a raid that is expertly crafted by hand. I guess we'll know more when that's revealed. I'm hoping it's not like firefight.

My fear is that the grind will simply get worse, since so much gear has to be upgraded to 365. Everything you buy looks like it starts at 331 and needs to be ascended. I'm playing out this scenario in my head, and a lot of it just seems pointless… at least with raids I can run them because the activity is inherently challenging. But judging by the activities that drop upgrade materials, it would appear you'd need to do them often.

You assume that Trials and the Strike won't be challenging. I suspect they will be more challenging than VoG given the current level of the VoG. And after what I saw yesterday, I can't imagine the grind being worse. Prior to HoW this was the upgrade path

Legendaries: No upgrade on existing. You go buy a new 331 legendary, get all the exp, and then upgrade every last node.
Exotics: Only took shards, but then you still had to get all the exp again, and upgrade every node again!

With the new system

Legendaries: you can take an existing 300 or 331, and with a much smaller quantity of material upgrade it without the need for exp, and no need to pay for every single node again.
Exotics: Same as Legendaries.

Now think about the transition from level 1 to level 20 upgrade path.
You had a 100 dmg gun, and you wanted it to be 300? Tough luck, you had to toss it out, get a new one, and exp each node and pay for each node. Now this method is still in place, however I write it down as an example of the "norm".

And don't forget that materials can now be interchanged! So now the pay out for any grind is in a currency that CAN be used for almost any upgrade path. The barrier to 366 weapons via a unique material is expected, and prevents everyone from having end game weapons on day one. This is acceptable to me. It's also extremely simplified. The whole Ascendant energy/shards was hard to deal with because depending on the weapon it would take a different quantity of each. You also didn't earn them in a predictable way, so it was harder to plan the upgrade path for each weapon.

Conclusion: IMHO end game grinding is less than early game grinding, and better than pre-HoW end game grinding. And material exchange makes it all the better.

I wonder if I'm making sense at all. I'm just in general sick of the idea of grinding and upgrading, and would just rather play cool shit. Granted, the system they have is probably the best I could have imagined for what it is, and so they have my admiration. The only thing that would make it better is being able to use commendations to buy legacy gear (which could then be ascended!).

You make complete sense. I'd just hold off on the idea off on the grind feeling until we know more about the content, and perhaps have even played it. Though I doubt it, what if just playing through all the fun content once provides you with the material to upgrade 20 guns to max level? It's unlikely, but we just don't know yet. Conversely one play through may equate to a single gun upgrade, in which case the grind will be harsh. Grind has a lot less to do with cost and material than it does to do with the ratio of earned to cost. None of us grind for weapons parts or spirit blooms, because during the normal course of play we acquire all we need.

It wouldn't be right if I were completely satisfied, would it? :-p

My concern is that too much of the House of Wolves experience will revolve around grinding to upgrade, with not a lot of new things to do, and the activities that are there mainly being there to service the grind.

I've always wondered what was the point of having great weapons drop from end game content. So you've just done the hardest content in the game. But then, what do you need the best guns for? If I'm running Prison of Elders every week, and doing Trials of Osiris already, why would I need the new guns? There's a reason you don't get the best stuff from the hardest optional bosses in JPRGs; the game makes them so hard that you have to use your best stuff to defeat them!

I'm just worried that the ability to upgrade old gear is going to replace content that could have been in the game to spend time on instead. I foresee the story missions being easy, and the poor storytelling continuing. This leaves Prison of Elders, which I cannot possibly imagine being as challenging as a raid that is expertly crafted by hand. I guess we'll know more when that's revealed. I'm hoping it's not like firefight.

My fear is that the grind will simply get worse, since so much gear has to be upgraded to 365. Everything you buy looks like it starts at 331 and needs to be ascended. I'm playing out this scenario in my head, and a lot of it just seems pointless… at least with raids I can run them because the activity is inherently challenging. But judging by the activities that drop upgrade materials, it would appear you'd need to do them often.

I wonder if I'm making sense at all. I'm just in general sick of the idea of grinding and upgrading, and would just rather play cool shit. Granted, the system they have is probably the best I could have imagined for what it is, and so they have my admiration. The only thing that would make it better is being able to use commendations to buy legacy gear (which could then be ascended!).

Not saying you're wrong obviously (because there is still a lot left to reveal so none of us know much about it yet), but...

I can't really understand how you can have that concern if you watched the stream yesterday. Everything they showed made it supremely clear that so much of the grind (at least in regard to upgrading weapons and armor) has been eliminated. Your old weapons and armor that you choose to "Ascend" will not need to be re-leveled. New weapons and armor you buy will have half the upgrade nodes that they used to (it appears that the upgrade attack and defense bubbles are completely gone).

The only thing that seems like it might be quite a grind is the actually obtaining of "Etheric Light" - which we will acquire through running the new (and existing) end-game content -- and which we haven't seen yet. I haven't seen any of the Trials of Osiris or Prison of Elders stuff yet (and neither has anyone outside of Bungie with the exception of Gothalion (who saw it yesterday) and Datto, Byf, MoreConsole and some other YouTubers that are going to Bungie today). From what Goth has been saying on his stream today, which obviously isn't much because of NDA, I think it's quite reasonable to expect that Prison of Elders is going to be pretty cool. According to the only non-Bungie person to play it so far, there are lots of cool surprises that will make us - especially those of us that like the raids because of the unique mechanics and emphasis on team-play - very happy.

It seems to me that if it's really important to you to hit level cap ASAP, you should be able to do it within a week or two because you can just apply the first four Etheric Lights that you get to your armor (and won't even need to level anything else up for those pieces). In any case, I think what you really need to do is just take a step back from the "race" to have all your stuff completely upgraded to the new cap and just enjoy running Trials of Osiris and Prison of Elders with us.

So you've just done the hardest content in the game. But then, what do you need the best guns for?

As far as this specific concern goes, I don't think it's less a matter of "giving you the tools you need", just "more tools" (or "toys" depending on how you look at it).

We didn't NEED Gjallarhorn or Black Hammer to beat VoG, but having them sure allows us to pull things off that we never could have before. In a way, the weapons themselves add a substantial amount of replay value to the game. Nevermind the grind we go through to get them, but actually using them adds a lot of variety.

My hope is that the Prison of Elders will be a game mode that inherently offers a decent amount of replayability. Now that we can upgrade whatever gear we choose, we have the freedom to create whatever custom character loadouts we want to play with. We're being given the freedom to create our own replayability, in a way.

I've always wondered what was the point of having great weapons drop from end game content. So you've just done the hardest content in the game. But then, what do you need the best guns for? If I'm running Prison of Elders every week, and doing Trials of Osiris already, why would I need the new guns? There's a reason you don't get the best stuff from the hardest optional bosses in JPRGs; the game makes them so hard that you have to use your best stuff to defeat them!

A little tangent, but I think it's relevant here... I've been thinking about crota hard recently. I think the way it's done isn't the way that's "intended". I think the abyss defiant was supposed to be key to that encounter -- kill the boomers, take out the wizards with an abyss defiant or two, then go after crota.

But nobody wanted to use a particular weapon (other than gjallarhorn I guess) for this encounter. I think dragon's breath was also supposed to work for the crota fight to take down his shields, along with fang of ir yut and oversoul edict being arc (which is what his shields are IIRC).

So I think bungie is working towards making certain weapons more relevant and working well in certain encounters. I don't necessarily agree that the way they did it was ideal, but I think it's on their radar and they'd like to make where and when you get weapons matter. I have hopes they learned from this and will use a bigger clue-stick next time. Bonus points for them not making it all tied to the one raid, but more throughout the game.

My other thought that I haven't seen mentioned much around here is the tooltip on the upgrade materials. Looks like "Year 1" weapons will top out with house of wolves caps of 365. Meaning this is the new normal -- most vendor based things and drops will cap at 331 (for the moment) and will require upgrade materials to get to 365. I wouldn't be surprised if -ALL- drops other than 1-2 work this way, both for weapons and armor in the expansion. The grind changes, and I expect certain events (i.e. VoG) will be come more popular because the drops will suddenly be relevant again. The new exchange system supports all this as well -- shards and energy are currency now, and will be more valuable, making the old content more viable.

It wouldn't be right if I were completely satisfied, would it? :-p

Heh. Indeed. :p

My concern is that too much of the House of Wolves experience will revolve around grinding to upgrade, with not a lot of new things to do, and the activities that are there mainly being there to service the grind.

I've always wondered what was the point of having great weapons drop from end game content. So you've just done the hardest content in the game. But then, what do you need the best guns for? If I'm running Prison of Elders every week, and doing Trials of Osiris already, why would I need the new guns? There's a reason you don't get the best stuff from the hardest optional bosses in JPRGs; the game makes them so hard that you have to use your best stuff to defeat them!

Well, it's like when we all started doing Vault of Glass. Everyone started with mostly blue armor and blue weapons and even once the puzzles had been solved just surviving was still a decent challenge because everyone was weaker and did less damage. Then there was hard mode. Improving your armor and weapons wasn't strictly necessary but it also wasn't pointless. Same for Crota's End if not even more so since enemies there actually outlevel you. The grind still had relevance. I imagine it will be similar for the Prison of Elders...

I'm just worried that the ability to upgrade old gear is going to replace content that could have been in the game to spend time on instead. I foresee the story missions being easy, and the poor storytelling continuing. This leaves Prison of Elders, which I cannot possibly imagine being as challenging as a raid that is expertly crafted by hand. I guess we'll know more when that's revealed. I'm hoping it's not like firefight.

My fear is that the grind will simply get worse, since so much gear has to be upgraded to 365. Everything you buy looks like it starts at 331 and needs to be ascended. I'm playing out this scenario in my head, and a lot of it just seems pointless… at least with raids I can run them because the activity is inherently challenging. But judging by the activities that drop upgrade materials, it would appear you'd need to do them often.

Even if the Prison of Elders is Firefight, wasn't Firefight challenging? To me it was more challenging than any Halo mission or Destiny Raid because I never survived through an entire Firefight... ever. In some ways Firefight was the purest form of Halo combat.

I wonder if I'm making sense at all. I'm just in general sick of the idea of grinding and upgrading, and would just rather play cool shit. Granted, the system they have is probably the best I could have imagined for what it is, and so they have my admiration. The only thing that would make it better is being able to use commendations to buy legacy gear (which could then be ascended!).

I guess from my point of view I don't see grinding as necessary. I do Crota and Crucible and Iron Banner at level 31 most of the time. Perhaps consider just playing when you feel like it or when you have a good group to play with and letting the grind and upgrades come to you naturally? Instead of seeking them out?