The livestream starts in 10 minutes (11AM PDT) over at Bungie's Twitch channel! Share your thoughts and info here!

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seriously.... it's 5 minutes out and I already can't see a single thing posted.

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Is that on the Destiny OST? I haven't heard it before but its ridiculously amazing.

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WHAT. IS. THAT. ON. YOUR. ARM. O_O

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Higher "challenge" modes will not be matchmade

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Higher "challenge" modes will not be matchmade

Higher levels rotate. 3 on offer at any given time. Highest level 35 mode is always the same. Weekly reset for rewards.

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"Because they're all different."

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"Trickle" first one revealed: abilities recharge slowly.

Looks like same race of enemies? Fighting Hive currently.

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Broman yelling was giving me away at the office.

CC

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Primary weapon damage is buffed

This wave isn't just kill enemies, it also involves disabling mines as an objective.

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1st one shown: defusing mines.

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I need an audio slider just for him.

- CC

Third person BIG gun

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FTFY.

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You aren't wrong. Borders on unbearable.

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One was the Scorch Cannon, another was a heavy weapon crate

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Presumably you unlock a room after so many rooms defeated?

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Guardian shield value increased but does not replenish.

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End the Broman

Presumably you unlock a room after so many rooms defeated?

Just like Smash TV!

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End the Broman

It really is grating and unbearable when he acts up. Stop being annoying dude.

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I agree. I am temporarily forgiving Phalanx shields for bashing me into random rocks.

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This one just happened to roll Cabal twice?

And some people probably do. Not me though :)

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The volume isn't ideal, but it feels genuine. This is the kind of battle chatter madness I'm used to.

-sigh-

CC

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So three extra Nightfalls a week?

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No boot to orbit. There is delayed revive like a raid.

Prevents having the fire team sit in "the best" spot and playing the entire map from one position and point of view.

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Strikes will be less likely to repeat in Matchmaking rotations for full Fireteams.

from the other room:
"What are you watching?"
"A game thing."
"It sounds like a sex thing."
"How, why?"
"Well he's moaning and groaning."

Leaving one enemy alive at the end of a round and systematically suiciding to get full shields might be a good strategy.

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But understandable. Usually peeps are unusually hostile towards stream guests if they have slightly annoying behaviors, but man, this guy is actually making this harder to watch.

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from the other room:
"What are you watching?"
"A game thing."
"It sounds like a sex thing."
"How, why?"
"Well he's moanin' and groanin'."

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What's the betting the last round is under that suspicious-looking floor panel? Surprise Trapdoor!

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So saith the DeeJ.

I stopped watching the stream because of this guy. I was constantly having to take my headphones off at work due to random yelling by him. what the heck was Bungie thinking?

At least I think he said that. He said "Today's specially curated set" is Cabal and Hive, but that there is a Vex and Fallen space as well.

And then not using them...

Seems like a great place to use heavies, since standing in one place and firing doesn't look feasible.

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At least I think he said that. He said "Today's specially curated set" is Cabal and Hive, but that there is a Vex and Fallen space as well.

What sense does it make to imprison the Vex?

This whole thing makes absolutely zero sense lore wise. It's a prison, why do all the cabal have guns?

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;)

High fire rate, low impact. Meh.

But understandable. Usually peeps are unusually hostile towards stream guests if they have slightly annoying behaviors, but man, this guy is actually making this harder to watch.

Send in CruelLegacy.

Deej; So cruel, do you like it so far?

Cruellegacy dances.

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Repeated, steadily improving attempts will be super fun when it's me playing, just like the Raids. Doesn't make for good tv though.

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I bet 28 only yields strike-quality rewards, whereas 34-35 level rewards are raid-quality.

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A group of really good Destiny players playing the game, and a group of Bungie staff talking about the game. Trying to talk and be engaging while consent rating on a super-difficult game mode is just not going to work, as this stream shows :-/

Never the less, can't wait to play it!

Unable to tell if Bungie can't beat their own monster......or is just being bad intentionally and dragging it out

CC

Woo! Go team Hive!

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The first guest was the only one to ask any real questions. Yes, it was rude when he interrupted, but it was nice to finally get some answers. I liked seeing the Bungie employees put on the spot and forced to answer.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/05/06/destinys-prison-of-elders-aims-to-please-pve-players?read

http://www.polygon.com/2015/5/6/8560789/destiny-house-of-wolves-prison-of-elders-details

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2015/05/06/conquering-destiny-s-prison-of-elders.aspx

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-05-06-destinys-new-arena-mode-is-a-lot-of-fun-but-its-no-raid

Edit:

http://planetdestiny.com/prison-of-elders/

This. After today I take back every negative thing I said about Gothalion. Not only is he less annoying, he is actually good at the game.

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What's the betting the last round is under that suspicious-looking floor panel? Surprise Trapdoor!

I believe the four doors are for each race, not for each round.

First of all, nobody wants to see you die over and over. Play on an easier level, or get better players.

Secondly, I am sure Prison of Elders will be decently fun, and it would be a great addition to House of Wolves IN ADDITION to a raid. From what I've seen, it is absolutely not a substitute in any way shape or for for the raid experience. It may be difficult, but I don't see a lot of new challenges that a well crafted raid can provide. It strikes me as a very 'easy' effort just designing an arena and populating it with enemies. Further, I could easily see myself and the DBO PS4 team dispatching these rounds quickly. I was noticing things and ways to play that would have been simple to execute, yet they didn't do it because they are bad.

I am also sad they are doubling down on the overleveling of enemies as a way to provide difficulty, like in Crota Hard. The game needs new challenges. Get Luke back in here and let him work his magic.

Thirdly, that yelling guy was annoying as shit, and I was embarrassed watching that.

I think they wanted to make it look hard and intentionally picked bad players for this stream. DeeJ is really bad. Broman is ok. The other guy was better, but not great.

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Look at the individual raid mechanics. They're pretty stupid easy. We clear Crota in 30 minutes, Atheon in an hour on casual play now. Once you get the mechanics, it's easy. This will continue to be difficult despite understanding the mechanics of the raid.

I think this is a worthy substitute and I am looking forward to it. I wish there was room for more dudes, though.

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Otherwise they wouldn't be any fun. Physics and biology go out the window, ground engagements with covenant can be nixed (just nuke em), and so on. You need to take the stupid to have fun.

Although I enjoy just playing 1-2 hours a week anymore, so maybe my mentality is different here. It'll be nice to have an alternative to nightfalls for end-game content that will only take an hour or so, and can be put together on the fly instead of with FTB, so I don't have to plan my social life around playing a game.

Yeah, the distinction between shields and health in Destiny has always seemed a litle fuzzy to me.

Red Death and Suros Regime just went way up my list of things to ascend.

Look at the individual raid mechanics. They're pretty stupid easy. We clear Crota in 30 minutes, Atheon in an hour on casual play now. Once you get the mechanics, it's easy. This will continue to be difficult despite understanding the mechanics of the raid.

And the first time doing a raid with no help, how long did it take? Did you even ever DO it with no help? That's my point, and that's the experience that is so amazing. They are easy now because you know them, but figuring them out is wicked fun. PoE has none of that whatsoever.

Vault of Glass opening second is still far and above any other Destiny experience by a huge margin.

Deja vu.

Otherwise they wouldn't be any fun. Physics and biology go out the window, ground engagements with covenant can be nixed (just nuke em), and so on. You need to take the stupid to have fun.

The more immersive your world gets, the bigger penalty you have for breaking the rules. I don't see how you don't see this. The world of Destiny is not set up as 'stupid'.

Look at the individual raid mechanics. They're pretty stupid easy. We clear Crota in 30 minutes, Atheon in an hour on casual play now. Once you get the mechanics, it's easy. This will continue to be difficult despite understanding the mechanics of the raid.

They should have just called the Prison a raid because it's really no different than VoG or Crota. You shoot lots of stuff, you stand in certain places, you shoot specific stuff... that's what we do. Forming the spire, defending the confluxes... that's just endless enemies coming at you for a time. The Templar is just a big boss to kill with some little orbs to shoot every once and a while. Atheon splits us up and teleports us to different places to kill more stuff. There will be a big boss at the end of the lvl 35 arena and there will be a mechanic to kill it. It's a raid!

This maintains the suck.

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I rarely play a whole raid in one sitting. Instead, I hop on LFG and find someone who wants to kill Atheon. That only takes 5-15 mins. It looks like completing the prison will take at least 30 minutes.

I rarely play a whole raid in one sitting. Instead, I hop on LFG and find someone who wants to kill Atheon. That only takes 5-15 mins. It looks like completing the prison will take at least 30 minutes.

Especially in matchmaking. "Alright, Stage 5, oops RNG'd a modifier I don't like, guess I'll back out." Strike playlist level back-outs but on a larger scale; you can cheese a strike, but this with 1-2 people might be really frustrating.

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I thought so at first, but I don't think that is what was happening. I think he was regaining health, because it stopped at the shield point. Red death was irrelevant or at the very least the shields were unaffected.

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Clicky Click.

I rarely play a whole raid in one sitting. Instead, I hop on LFG and find someone who wants to kill Atheon. That only takes 5-15 mins. It looks like completing the prison will take at least 30 minutes.

Especially in matchmaking. "Alright, Stage 5, oops RNG'd a modifier I don't like, guess I'll back out." Strike playlist level back-outs but on a larger scale; you can cheese a strike, but this with 1-2 people might be really frustrating.

Design it differently to make it harder to abuse. Cody could tell us how.

Unexplained magic, all guns using the same ammo, magic engrams coming from enemies, human chests, and alien chests, killing the same boss over and over again, all is built into the game with the missions and bounties and stuff. It's all genuinely stupid. I don't know how you don't see this.

Can anyone fill me in on what happened after the guy off screen whispered "One more time..."?

Did they talk about the rewards you would get or if there was really a guaranteed Etheric Light drop on the harder levels?

He is loud and annoying to be sure, but whoever was producing the stream should have put on a volume limiter for the mics. It's pretty basic live TV production. I blame them for blowing out our ears as much as broman.

I rarely play a whole raid in one sitting. Instead, I hop on LFG and find someone who wants to kill Atheon. That only takes 5-15 mins. It looks like completing the prison will take at least 30 minutes.

Especially in matchmaking. "Alright, Stage 5, oops RNG'd a modifier I don't like, guess I'll back out." Strike playlist level back-outs but on a larger scale; you can cheese a strike, but this with 1-2 people might be really frustrating.

Design it differently to make it harder to abuse.

Just do the level 28 if you have a time crunch. You could probably breeze a 32 if you were at 34. It looks like this is designed with a difficulty slider that goes from "easy and short" to "somewhat time consuming."

Cody could tell us how.

Don't worry, he will. For the next 3 months ;)

Yeah I was pretty disappointed that bro and questions about the story and lore of prison of elders got zero answers. I didn't get the impression that it was because they wanted to hide anything either.

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Unexplained magic, all guns using the same ammo, magic engrams coming from enemies, human chests, and alien chests, killing the same boss over and over again, all is built into the game with the missions and bounties and stuff. It's all genuinely stupid. I don't know how you don't see this.

Serious Sam is stupid. Destiny takes itself seriously.

http://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=67933

Broman Yelling
Deej thinking FML
Matt Sammons taking off the headset to ease the pain.

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This one is fairly good.

Look at the individual raid mechanics. They're pretty stupid easy. We clear Crota in 30 minutes, Atheon in an hour on casual play now. Once you get the mechanics, it's easy. This will continue to be difficult despite understanding the mechanics of the raid.

They should have just called the Prison a raid because it's really no different than VoG or Crota. You shoot lots of stuff, you stand in certain places, you shoot specific stuff... that's what we do. Forming the spire, defending the confluxes... that's just endless enemies coming at you for a time. The Templar is just a big boss to kill with some little orbs to shoot every once and a while. Atheon splits us up and teleports us to different places to kill more stuff. There will be a big boss at the end of the lvl 35 arena and there will be a mechanic to kill it. It's a raid!

That's a pretty reductionist way to describe a raid :)

"You shoot stuff... it's a raid!" ;p

Joking aside, I don't think it is fair to say that PoE is a similar experience to a raid at all. Both raids provide something of a journey for the player, plus they require fairly complex formations and strategies to get through. PoE is more of a gauntlet experience. By the looks of things, it doesn't have anywhere near the complexity or intricacy of a raid, which is fine.

It's apparently a new weapon class called a "sidearm." It has visual similarities to a handcannon, but only to the same degree that a shotgun looks like a hunting rifle.

Stats look like nearly maxed fire rate, stability, and reload. Comparatively low impact and range. So the behavior is pretty much the exact opposite of a hand cannon. My guess is that the swap speed and aim speed on this weapon type are probably extremely fast - it seems to me like the spirit of the thing is something to whip out and pile a bunch of rounds into the enemy very quickly.

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Just do the level 28 if you have a time crunch. You could probably breeze a 32 if you were at 34. It looks like this is designed with a difficulty slider that goes from "easy and short" to "somewhat time consuming."

You're right. 32 will be very easy at 34.

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Technically, a Level 32's advantage over a Level 30 in VoG Hard is infinitesimal. Enemies health and damage will scale above your level, but not the other way around.

Technically, a Level 32's advantage over a Level 30 in VoG Hard is infinitesimal. Enemies health and damage will scale above your level, but not the other way around.

The IGN crew took 25 minutes to complete a level 34 PoE in their video, I think? Could go by pretty quick.

I guess it depends if there's other differences besides levels. For example, Datto's video indicated that the mines in his Level 32 run could be destroyed by gunfire, which seems easier than disarming them.

What's the betting the last round is under that suspicious-looking floor panel? Surprise Trapdoor!

I believe the four doors are for each race, not for each round.

The floor panel is apparently where you will drop down into the 'treasure room' after you get a key for beating the final boss.

I need dis.

I don't see any green circles?

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I'm guessing some of the important questions will be covered in the Weekly Update tomorrow. If not, only two weeks!

I'm guessing some of the important questions will be covered in the Weekly Update tomorrow. If not, only two weeks!

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Look at the individual raid mechanics. They're pretty stupid easy. We clear Crota in 30 minutes, Atheon in an hour on casual play now. Once you get the mechanics, it's easy. This will continue to be difficult despite understanding the mechanics of the raid.

And the first time doing a raid with no help, how long did it take? Did you even ever DO it with no help? That's my point, and that's the experience that is so amazing. They are easy now because you know them, but figuring them out is wicked fun. PoE has none of that whatsoever.

Vault of Glass opening second is still far and above any other Destiny experience by a huge margin.

That only happens once per player though, if it even ever happens, and most of the mechanics in the Vault of Glass that I wasn't told about (which was most of them) I was able to figure out quite quickly.
It doesn't make sense to design around something that only presents once unless you're actually building a puzzle game, and Destiny is not a puzzle game, it's a shooter. (Even in the case of a puzzle game, it's best to have depth beyond one correct solution, which you've talked about at length before with Portal versus Portal 2, weakening your own point with your own words.)
This is all ignoring the fact you've only seen 2 of the 4 rooms and you don't know how many different objectives there are, what they are, or how they work.

Look at the individual raid mechanics. They're pretty stupid easy. We clear Crota in 30 minutes, Atheon in an hour on casual play now. Once you get the mechanics, it's easy. This will continue to be difficult despite understanding the mechanics of the raid.

And the first time doing a raid with no help, how long did it take? Did you even ever DO it with no help? That's my point, and that's the experience that is so amazing. They are easy now because you know them, but figuring them out is wicked fun. PoE has none of that whatsoever.

Vault of Glass opening second is still far and above any other Destiny experience by a huge margin.

That only happens once per player though, if it even ever happens, and most of the mechanics that I wasn't told about I was able to figure out quite quickly.
It doesn't make sense to design around something that only presents once unless you're actually building a puzzle game, and Destiny is not a puzzle game, it's a shooter. (Even in the case of a puzzle game, it's best to have depth beyond one correct solution, which you've talked about at length before with Portal versus Portal 2, weakening your own point with your own words.)
This is all ignoring the fact you've only seen 2 of the 4 rooms and you don't know how many different objectives there are, what they are, or how they work.

It's not a stretch to assume that the objectives will be much simpler than the raid objectives given a) it is a matchmade activity, and b) only 3 players means fewer moving parts.

And as a counter to Cody's argument, I find the best part about the raids is the last time you play it, not the first. Each playthrough is a chance to take what you've learned and do a little better. Try new formations, new weapon and ability combos, get through faster, more efficiently, etc.

Look at the individual raid mechanics. They're pretty stupid easy. We clear Crota in 30 minutes, Atheon in an hour on casual play now. Once you get the mechanics, it's easy. This will continue to be difficult despite understanding the mechanics of the raid.

And the first time doing a raid with no help, how long did it take? Did you even ever DO it with no help? That's my point, and that's the experience that is so amazing. They are easy now because you know them, but figuring them out is wicked fun. PoE has none of that whatsoever.

Vault of Glass opening second is still far and above any other Destiny experience by a huge margin.

That only happens once per player though, if it even ever happens, and most of the mechanics that I wasn't told about I was able to figure out quite quickly.
It doesn't make sense to design around something that only presents once unless you're actually building a puzzle game, and Destiny is not a puzzle game, it's a shooter. (Even in the case of a puzzle game, it's best to have depth beyond one correct solution, which you've talked about at length before with Portal versus Portal 2, weakening your own point with your own words.)
This is all ignoring the fact you've only seen 2 of the 4 rooms and you don't know how many different objectives there are, what they are, or how they work.

It's not a stretch to assume that the objectives will be much simpler than the raid objectives given a) it is a matchmade activity, and b) only 3 players means fewer moving parts.

And as a counter to Cody's argument, I find the best part about the raids is the last time you play it, not the first. Each playthrough is a chance to take what you've learned and do a little better. Try new formations, new weapon and ability combos, get through faster, more efficiently, etc.

I think this all comes back to player population in the raids. I don't think it's very high compared to the rest of the game; I bet they looked at what people played, and they found it was all strikes. So they took what made strikes work (more challenging combat for better rewards than story/patrol), and they found an iterative way to make it both more challenging than a strike and less committed than a raid. Matchmaking definitely will work for this where it probably wouldn't for a raid. It's gunplay with some simple objectives and a smattering of new mechanics. I would think you'll see a much larger population than the raids ever had.

I guess it depends if there's other differences besides levels. For example, Datto's video indicated that the mines in his Level 32 run could be destroyed by gunfire, which seems easier than disarming them.

Those are a different kind of mines... on the ground instead of the floaty things.

Destiny takes it's stupidity seriously. It's still stupid.

Which is why we can have an insane old robot turncoat very seriously tell us to go into a Battle Royale prison run by purple people to kill space aliens and get more magic guns and armour.

Destiny takes it's stupidity seriously. It's still stupid.

Which is why we can have an insane old robot turncoat very seriously tell us to go into a Battle Royale prison run by purple people to kill space aliens and get more magic guns and armour.

You're open minded with the guy I find obnoxious and I'm like, 'meh, maybe that limey isn't so hot,' then BOOM! You drop some all time gem like this and I'm right back to 'somebody buy that man a pint!'

+1

If only you weren't so damn nice!

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I think this all comes back to player population in the raids. I don't think it's very high compared to the rest of the game; I bet they looked at what people played, and they found it was all strikes. So they took what made strikes work (more challenging combat for better rewards than story/patrol), and they found an iterative way to make it both more challenging than a strike and less committed than a raid. Matchmaking definitely will work for this where it probably wouldn't for a raid. It's gunplay with some simple objectives and a smattering of new mechanics. I would think you'll see a much larger population than the raids ever had.

I think you're bang on. I'll be the first to argue that raids are far and away the best part of Destiny, but the barrier of entry is too high for most players. PoE will likely have more mass appeal.

At 3:30 he has "defusing splinter mines" as an objective; at 3:55 or so, "destroy splinter mines" is a separate objective. Were you agreeing or disagreeing?

I think this all comes back to player population in the raids. I don't think it's very high compared to the rest of the game; I bet they looked at what people played, and they found it was all strikes. So they took what made strikes work (more challenging combat for better rewards than story/patrol), and they found an iterative way to make it both more challenging than a strike and less committed than a raid. Matchmaking definitely will work for this where it probably wouldn't for a raid. It's gunplay with some simple objectives and a smattering of new mechanics. I would think you'll see a much larger population than the raids ever had.

I think you're bang on. I'll be the first to argue that raids are far and away the best part of Destiny, but the barrier of entry is too high for most players. PoE will likely have more mass appeal.

A much larger percentage of the population will be overleveled for the raid if they play PoE at a higher rate; players who didn't play before might then go back to them if they were at or above raid levels. Unless Bungie adds higher levels of difficulty to the existing raids.

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I think this all comes back to player population in the raids. I don't think it's very high compared to the rest of the game; I bet they looked at what people played, and they found it was all strikes. So they took what made strikes work (more challenging combat for better rewards than story/patrol), and they found an iterative way to make it both more challenging than a strike and less committed than a raid. Matchmaking definitely will work for this where it probably wouldn't for a raid. It's gunplay with some simple objectives and a smattering of new mechanics. I would think you'll see a much larger population than the raids ever had.

You might be on to something there.
It also might be something else, or it might be moot to speculate, because apparently they're working on more raids.

At 3:30 he has "defusing splinter mines" as an objective; at 3:55 or so, "destroy splinter mines" is a separate objective. Were you agreeing or disagreeing?

At about 4:06 you can see there is no "defuse/cap-point" circle below the mine. They are different objectives. The destroy appears to be much easier.

I think this all comes back to player population in the raids. I don't think it's very high compared to the rest of the game; I bet they looked at what people played, and they found it was all strikes. So they took what made strikes work (more challenging combat for better rewards than story/patrol), and they found an iterative way to make it both more challenging than a strike and less committed than a raid. Matchmaking definitely will work for this where it probably wouldn't for a raid. It's gunplay with some simple objectives and a smattering of new mechanics. I would think you'll see a much larger population than the raids ever had.

You might be on to something there.
It also might be something else, or it might be moot to speculate, because apparently they're working on more raids.

You bet they're making more raids. Gotta keep the hardcore happy. It looks like Bungie is doing a pretty good job of developing activities across a variety of playstyles: this expansion looks to be geared toward endgame casual PvE and endgame hardcore PvP.

Unexplained magic, all guns using the same ammo, magic engrams coming from enemies, human chests, and alien chests, killing the same boss over and over again, all is built into the game with the missions and bounties and stuff. It's all genuinely stupid. I don't know how you don't see this.

I take issue with calling any of that stupid. Something can be fantastical and even arbitrary and still be well-put-together and enjoyable. By your logic almost all video games are stupid.

Choose Professor Bonkle for the next Bungie stream. I won't yell or be annoying because I will be too into the game! (also because the internet is scary).

HashbrownBonkle2012.

I tried to address that in a Grimoire card.

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It doesn't make sense to design around something that only presents once unless you're actually building a puzzle game, and Destiny is not a puzzle game, it's a shooter. (Even in the case of a puzzle game, it's best to have depth beyond one correct solution, which you've talked about at length before with Portal versus Portal 2, weakening your own point with your own words.)

If you think there is only one 'solution' to the templar fight, the confluxes, the death singer, or even Atheon, then you either have not raided much, or you lack imagination.

And as a counter to Cody's argument, I find the best part about the raids is the last time you play it, not the first. Each playthrough is a chance to take what you've learned and do a little better. Try new formations, new weapon and ability combos, get through faster, more efficiently, etc.

Correct, because the raids are NOT like Portal 2 and only have one specific solution to the fights.

You bet they're making more raids. Gotta keep the hardcore happy. It looks like Bungie is doing a pretty good job of developing activities across a variety of playstyles:

Dude, Datto JUST made a video about how Destiny is heavily focused on the casual at the expense of the hardcore player. He basically said there are not nearly enough activities for high end players to pursue.

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Heh. When I think of people with perspective I think of hardcore players. :p

End the Broman

At least he was a straight-shooter who asked the real questions. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed his being there.

The Triplewreck guy gave me a chuckle with how lame and awkward he was. Helped contrast his playing skills; made him human... but he was pretty much pointless overall.

This guy though... yeesh.

End the Broman

At least he was a straight-shooter who asked the real questions. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed his being there.

The Triplewreck guy gave me a chuckle with how lame and awkward he was. Helped contrast his playing skills; made him human... but he was pretty much pointless overall.

This guy though... yeesh.

I've been thinking about this all day- Honestly, I think Goth worked so well (comparatively) because he functioned mostly as an interviewer for that stream, based on the fact that not much gameplay was happening.

Like someone else here mentioned, it's hard to play and talk at the same time. I think a better system would have been for the guest to be with Deej and the designers in an observatory role, acting as a cipher for regular players and asking questions, while Bungie's testers demo what an ideal game session looks like.

He basically said there are not nearly enough activities for high end players to pursue.

At the expense of what? Dude, by this reason, there is even less content for players who don't raid. Datto is literally the last person you should take an opinion from on this.

It doesn't make sense to design around something that only presents once unless you're actually building a puzzle game, and Destiny is not a puzzle game, it's a shooter. (Even in the case of a puzzle game, it's best to have depth beyond one correct solution, which you've talked about at length before with Portal versus Portal 2, weakening your own point with your own words.)

If you think there is only one 'solution' to the templar fight, the confluxes, the death singer, or even Atheon, then you either have not raided much, or you lack imagination.

What? That's my point. They're designing for more than one solution. You can't find more than one solution (in practical terms) in one play-through. Ergo, I don't understand you saying they should focus on raids and specifically on the experience of running a raid for the first time-- or did I misunderstand, and you were just going on a tangent to say that you liked what they did with that?

End the Broman

At least he was a straight-shooter who asked the real questions. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed his being there.

The Triplewreck guy gave me a chuckle with how lame and awkward he was. Helped contrast his playing skills; made him human... but he was pretty much pointless overall.

This guy though... yeesh.

I've been thinking about this all day- Honestly, I think Goth worked so well (comparatively) because he functioned mostly as an interviewer for that stream, based on the fact that not much gameplay was happening.

Like someone else here mentioned, it's hard to play and talk at the same time. I think a better system would have been for the guest to be with Deej and the designers in an observatory role, acting as a cipher for regular players and asking questions, while Bungie's testers demo what an ideal game session looks like.

They could have made it work by talking between waves and between rounds-- and they did do that, but it didn't work, because I couldn't hear most of what they said, because I had the volume down so I wouldn't go deaf. That yelling really did pretty much ruin (for me) anything they wanted to present that wasn't gameplay. They should've had someone tell him over the headphones or via cue card or whatever to knock it off.
The sad thing is when he wasn't yelling his enthusiasm was actually kind of infectious; when he got excited about the scorch cannon, I got excited too, then he started screaming his head off again and I went back to tuning it out and turning it down.

He basically said there are not nearly enough activities for high end players to pursue.

At the expense of what? Dude, by this reason, there is even less content for players who don't raid. Datto is literally the last person you should take an opinion from on this.

There's a lack of content for everybody. I said this on the first day. Right now the only thing I do are raids, nightfalls, and Crucible. Once I get a Hawkmoon, it's going to be only crucible.

I see your point, since if you don't raid then all you have are strike playlists.

Was Doctor Dudebro unavailable?

Like someone else here mentioned, it's hard to play and talk at the same time. I think a better system would have been for the guest to be with Deej and the designers in an observatory role, acting as a cipher for regular players and asking questions, while Bungie's testers demo what an ideal game session looks like.

They probably figured that someone who streams Destiny for a living would be both good at the game and able to be entertaining at the same time. Unfortunately, they chose the exact wrong person.

- No text -

The sad thing is when he wasn't yelling his enthusiasm was actually kind of infectious; when he got excited about the scorch cannon, I got excited too, then he started screaming his head off again and I went back to tuning it out and turning it down.

I genuinely liked his excitement. The whole time I was thinking, "This is exactly what I imagine I'll be feeling the first time I get to experience this for myself." Though, to be fair, I was listening through a pair of Aftershokz headphones, so the sound wasn't directly in my ear. If I had been wearing earbuds, I might have been more than a little upset at having to make the choice between watching the stream or preserving the little hearing I have left.

-Disciple

Look at the individual raid mechanics. They're pretty stupid easy. We clear Crota in 30 minutes, Atheon in an hour on casual play now. Once you get the mechanics, it's easy. This will continue to be difficult despite understanding the mechanics of the raid.

And the first time doing a raid with no help, how long did it take? Did you even ever DO it with no help? That's my point, and that's the experience that is so amazing. They are easy now because you know them, but figuring them out is wicked fun. PoE has none of that whatsoever.

Vault of Glass opening second is still far and above any other Destiny experience by a huge margin.

That only happens once per player though, if it even ever happens, and most of the mechanics that I wasn't told about I was able to figure out quite quickly.
It doesn't make sense to design around something that only presents once unless you're actually building a puzzle game, and Destiny is not a puzzle game, it's a shooter. (Even in the case of a puzzle game, it's best to have depth beyond one correct solution, which you've talked about at length before with Portal versus Portal 2, weakening your own point with your own words.)
This is all ignoring the fact you've only seen 2 of the 4 rooms and you don't know how many different objectives there are, what they are, or how they work.

It's not a stretch to assume that the objectives will be much simpler than the raid objectives given a) it is a matchmade activity, and b) only 3 players means fewer moving parts.

And as a counter to Cody's argument, I find the best part about the raids is the last time you play it, not the first. Each playthrough is a chance to take what you've learned and do a little better. Try new formations, new weapon and ability combos, get through faster, more efficiently, etc.

I'm with Cody on this one. The very first time clearing the raids was great. Getting through the Abyss totally unspoiled was AMAZING.

The raids, however, then got old to me very quickly. Well before I ever got the gear to get into hard modes, in fact. Part of that is because RNG based loot drops are horsecrap, and three months into CE I still had only ever gotten boots and gloves despite many full clears. I have still never gotten a full set of VoG armor. Hard modes were a nice challenge, but only the Crota fight actually had different mechanics (and it sucks being 31 while everyone else in the group has been 32 for over a month). Everything else was basically the exact same as normal, sans revives and with bigger numbers.

This is a problem with raids in MMO games in general. As "beat this once" encounters, they're super fun. As "beat this every week, multiple times, for months on end" they suck ballsack (exacerbated by the fact that very often in MMOs you can't even attempt the next raid tier until everyone is fully outfitted from the current tier). I'm glad PoE will be different each time, but I'm also afraid that instead of being truly random, it will be "pick from a set of 12 fixed challenges" which will result in what is basically a pared down raid experience with variety but not surprises. At least the loot system is different. For that I'm VERY thankful.

The sad thing is when he wasn't yelling his enthusiasm was actually kind of infectious; when he got excited about the scorch cannon, I got excited too, then he started screaming his head off again and I went back to tuning it out and turning it down.

I genuinely liked his excitement. The whole time I was thinking, "This is exactly what I imagine I'll be feeling the first time I get to experience this for myself." Though, to be fair, I was listening through a pair of Aftershokz headphones, so the sound wasn't directly in my ear. If I had been wearing earbuds, I might have been more than a little upset at having to make the choice between watching the stream or preserving the little hearing I have left.

-Disciple

If you go back and watch the stream archive, audio levels seem to be all over the place. I was constantly tuning my volume slider the whole time, and not just because of Broman.