Avatar

In playable location news today, Martian sunsets are blue. (Off-Topic)

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Monday, May 11, 2015, 20:14 (3487 days ago)
edited by iconicbanana, Monday, May 11, 2015, 20:18

Very cool:

[image]

Also, the Messenger orbiter died violently at the end of April, and apparently now we know Mercury has had a magnetic field for a long time.

Avatar

In playable location news today, Martian sunsets are blue.

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Monday, May 11, 2015, 20:19 (3487 days ago) @ iconicbanana

Here's my question, why hasn't Mercury's core cooled & died like Mars has? Mercury is much smaller & I would guess should have cooled much faster.

Avatar

In playable location news today, Martian sunsets are blue.

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Monday, May 11, 2015, 20:22 (3487 days ago) @ dogcow

Here's my question, why hasn't Mercury's core cooled & died like Mars has? Mercury is much smaller & I would guess should have cooled much faster.

I would think being so close to the sun would have to do with it, and maybe being small, so that energy can actually get through to the core. That or the Vex did it.

Avatar

In playable location news today, Martian sunsets are blue.

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Monday, May 11, 2015, 20:25 (3487 days ago) @ General Vagueness

I would think being so close to the sun would have to do with it, and maybe being small, so that energy can actually get through to the core. That or the Vex did it.

If it's due to the energy from the sun radiating inward then the outside should be molten too, yeah? Maybe it's due to tidal forces from the sun?

Avatar

In playable location news today, Martian sunsets are blue.

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 03:20 (3487 days ago) @ dogcow

I would think being so close to the sun would have to do with it, and maybe being small, so that energy can actually get through to the core. That or the Vex did it.


If it's due to the energy from the sun radiating inward then the outside should be molten too, yeah?

Not everything melts in the same temperature range.

Maybe it's due to tidal forces from the sun?

Now I feel like an idiot, that's the obvious(ish) explanation.

Avatar

Wikipedia offers few answers.

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Monday, May 11, 2015, 20:25 (3487 days ago) @ dogcow
edited by iconicbanana, Monday, May 11, 2015, 20:30

You probably already took a peek at it.

Before the discovery of its magnetic field in 1974, it was thought that because of Mercury′s small size, its core had cooled over the years. There are still difficulties with this dynamo theory, including the fact that Mercury has a slow, 59-day-long rotation that could not have made it possible to generate a magnetic field.

This dynamo is probably weaker than Earth's because it is driven by thermo-compositional convection associated with inner core solidification. The thermal gradient at the core–mantle boundary is subadiabatic, and hence the outer region of the liquid core is stably stratified with the dynamo operating only at depth, where a strong field is generated.[18] Because of the planet's slow rotation, the resulting magnetic field is dominated by small-scale components that fluctuate quickly with time.

The article also indicates that Mercury's magnetosphere is several orders of magnitude weaker than Earth's.

1/100 is two orders of magnitude weaker.

by naturl selexion, Monday, May 11, 2015, 21:22 (3487 days ago) @ iconicbanana

- No text -

Avatar

Several =\= 2 or more?

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Monday, May 11, 2015, 21:27 (3487 days ago) @ naturl selexion

That might be a regional thing. Do you say couple in that particular instance? I have friends who say couple in that particular instance.

Edit: well there you go. I'm getting 'more than 2' as a definition from google. Guess I will stop saying that :/

Avatar

Generally, where I am

by RaichuKFM @, Northeastern Ohio, Monday, May 11, 2015, 21:29 (3487 days ago) @ iconicbanana

A couple is two (sometimes more, but not often), a few is 2+ or 3+, and several is generally 3+ or 4+.

And it is general

by Earendil, Monday, May 11, 2015, 21:43 (3487 days ago) @ RaichuKFM

People seem to say "A couple" when they know it's two. People might say "A few" when the number is unknown (or can't be bothered with) and it may be 2, or it may be 3 or 4.

For example, if I say:
"I had Chinese food a couple days ago"
and you say:
"You had it Saturday, you liar!"
I'd probably tell you to do something that isn't PG rated :)
But the deal in that instance is not that I knew it was recent but it wasn't yesterday. So without thinking further I go with the sentence that means "sometime in the last week".

Several =\= 2 or more?

by naturl selexion, Monday, May 11, 2015, 21:44 (3487 days ago) @ iconicbanana
edited by naturl selexion, Monday, May 11, 2015, 21:49

If that were the case then we would only need to say "one" or "several" and that would cover all possibilities. Hmm, I have 'several' girlfriends/cars/hang gliders/sources of income/arms/legs/ has a nice ring to it... I make several dollars a year too!

It has always made sense to me that 2 is "couple", 3 to 5 is a few and 5 to 9 is several.

I love language

by Earendil, Monday, May 11, 2015, 21:53 (3487 days ago) @ naturl selexion

If that were the case then we would only need to say "one" or "several" and that would cover all possibilities. Hmm, I have 'several' girlfriends has a nice ring to it...

It has always made sense to me that 2 is "couple", 3 to 5 is a few and 5 to 9 is several.

If I tell you I need "a couple quarters" do you think I mean exactly 50 cents?
Do you think that "It happened several days ago" is a substitute for "it happened week before last" ?

I do love language :)

I love language

by naturl selexion, Monday, May 11, 2015, 22:14 (3487 days ago) @ Earendil

If I tell you I need "a couple quarters" do you think I mean exactly 50 cents?

Yes, but then I take things more literally than the average person. Some people communicate more emotionally, some more technically. I am of the latter type.

When someone says "couple" I assign the number two to it. Then when they actually meant four or something my train of thought is derailed and I have to backtrack... sounds like I'm mental. I don't think so, I just like to mean what I say, say what I mean.

Of course then I do get lazy and use "few" or "several" to mean something that even I don't approve of - and hope no one else noticed. :-)

Another reason I like it

by Earendil, Monday, May 11, 2015, 22:32 (3487 days ago) @ naturl selexion

I don't think so, I just like to mean what I say, say what I mean.

Talking requires a single understanding and definition. Communicating requires two understandings, and a shared definition :)

off topic brain prattle follows...
It is of course completely possible to successfully talk and fail to communicate, simply because the definition is not shared. You could say that there was an expectations of communication based on the use of a common word definition, but it is difficult to say the fault lies with the person that was never taught your definition. The internet is really good about getting people to bump into these things.

Avatar

All my life, I thought "a couple" == "a few"

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, May 11, 2015, 23:23 (3487 days ago) @ naturl selexion

(Except for the obvious "Look at that beautiful couple")

Then, out-of-the-blue every single subtitler here decided "a couple" meant "exactly 2". Now you guys. My whole life is a lie.

Avatar

I love language

by Robot Chickens, Monday, May 11, 2015, 23:24 (3487 days ago) @ naturl selexion

Yes, but then I take things more literally than the average person. Some people communicate more emotionally, some more technically. I am of the latter type.

False dichotomy. Words and meanings are socially negotiated. While there may indeed be expressive vs technical language, you cannot make the claim of being more precise. A quick google search shows one definition of several to be more than two, but not many. This is widely different than your understanding. Because meanings are evolving and socially negotiated, it is impossible to be precise if you deviate so far from the first definition that comes up.

Just a thought.

I love language

by naturl selexion, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 02:05 (3487 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

False dichotomy. Words and meanings are socially negotiated. While there may indeed be expressive vs technical language, you cannot make the claim of being more precise.

I don't think I said I was more precise, but I guess that is what I meant. Nor did I say that there were only two ways to communicate. I said "more emotional" or "more technical" - lots of room between the extremes. Sure, I guess you could find the mid point then declare that there are only two sides. Like saying that some people are more short and some are more tall. We know that the world consists of more than just short or tall people.

As you noted there is "technical" language, where words have very defined meanings. Law, medicine and science are good examples. My initial response was regarding something technical in nature so to say "several" where only "two" was correct prompted me to make a clarification/correction. In this case I will claim to be more precise.

Avatar

I love language

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 02:26 (3487 days ago) @ naturl selexion
edited by iconicbanana, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 02:49

False dichotomy. Words and meanings are socially negotiated. While there may indeed be expressive vs technical language, you cannot make the claim of being more precise.


I don't think I said I was more precise, but I guess that is what I meant. Nor did I say that there were only two ways to communicate. I said "more emotional" or "more technical" - lots of room between the extremes. Sure, I guess you could find the mid point then declare that there are only two sides. Like saying that some people are more short and some are more tall. We know that the world consists of more than just short or tall people.

As you noted there is "technical" language, where words have very defined meanings. Law, medicine and science are good examples. My initial response was regarding something technical in nature so to say "several" where only "two" was correct prompted me to make a clarification/correction. In this case I will claim to be more precise.

I think Robot was trying to suggest that precision can't necessarily be applicable where use dictates different definitions. In this particular case, you and I are coming from two different social groups where one uses several as 2 or more, and the other uses it as more than 2. It's impossible to be more precise here because the rules of the two particular segments aren't equivalent; you could be right in one and not the other, but that has nothing to do with precision between the two.

On the subject of precision in this matter of magnetic fields, I personally didn't find it necessarily better, as I was not looking at a precise amount. Wikipedia suggested 1/100 as the fraction, which to me didn't seem particularly precise: it seemed, in fact, that they were suggesting 2 orders of magnitude. In physics courses I took in college, we usually gave an error of one order of magnitude as acceptable for a correct answer with extremely large or small numbers, so I didn't want to say two, as the fraction given already seemed like an approximation; 'several,' which I typically use as something akin to "more than one and less than five," seemed like a good fit, since it offered room for the error that I wanted to imply with enormous numbers relating to planetary forces. Precision in this particular actually seemed less ideal, since exact numbers weren't provided.

I love/hate language

by naturl selexion, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 02:51 (3487 days ago) @ iconicbanana

we usually gave an error of one order of magnitude as acceptable for a correct answer with extremely large numbers,

The article stated "about 1.1%" or about 1/100. That is very close to two orders of magnitude and very far away from three orders of magnitude. I believe you when you say that an error of one magnitude is acceptable for extremely large numbers. This was not an extremely large number though.

The point is that "several" is fairly well understood to mean some value more than two. If you had said "couple", even though some people may assign a value other than two to it, I would have no argument. It fits just fine with the actual information. "Several" does not fit, hence my comment.

Avatar

I love/hate language

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 03:07 (3487 days ago) @ naturl selexion
edited by iconicbanana, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 03:23

we usually gave an error of one order of magnitude as acceptable for a correct answer with extremely large numbers,


The article stated "about 1.1%" or about 1/100. That is very close to two orders of magnitude and very far away from three orders of magnitude. I believe you when you say that an error of one magnitude is acceptable for extremely large numbers. This was not an extremely large number though.

The point is that "several" is fairly well understood to mean some value more than two. If you had said "couple", even though some people may assign a value other than two to it, I would have no argument. It fits just fine with the actual information. "Several" does not fit, hence my comment.

I don't really have a problem with your definition of several; I'm gathering the majority of people here don't have the definition I always had.

On the subject of the 1/100 though, I would take issue, mostly because we're not dealing with 1 unit of measure to 100 units of that measure; it's more likely to either be 1.0^30 units of measure to 1.0^32, or perhaps ^-30 to ^-32. The tools they used for the measurement probably aren't necessarily going to be 100% precise here; you could quite possibly see orders of magnitude in variance. You really seem to be clinging to that 1/100 and I don't think it's necessarily productive to be; I was specifically trying not to be precise, which is why I didn't say two orders of magnitude (or a couple orders of magnitude, since I understand that to just mean 2).

Avatar

I agree, but the details are off.

by Funkmon @, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 03:27 (3487 days ago) @ iconicbanana
edited by Funkmon, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 03:32

About 10^-5 T is what we're looking at here for the Earth magnetic field, and it is measured to incredible precision (several orders of magnitude beyond this). The field strength varies, but at the surface it stays within one order of magnitude. Therefore, 3 orders of magnitude is definitely incorrect.

However, I not only understand your definition of several (and use it myself), but so, I posit, did almost everyone else here. It was clear you were being deliberately vague since you yourself linked a Wikipedia article containing the information discussed, and were not sure about the uncertainties and accuracy of the numbers mentioned. Hence, you were not wrong.

There is utility in using language broadly understood by the majority, which is why I shall not continue to use "several" to mean two or more, but to start an argument over its use here when the understanding was clear is, in my opinion, silly.

I think we can let this be. We all know that you both know the approximate ratio of the magnetic field strength of Mercury to the magnetic field strength of the Earth. Subtle differences in word usage are fine, and neither are definitive. Indeed, the more than one definition of several is slightly older, though not the most popular current definition. Check the OED.

Avatar

I love language

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 03:48 (3487 days ago) @ naturl selexion
edited by General Vagueness, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 03:59

False dichotomy. Words and meanings are socially negotiated. While there may indeed be expressive vs technical language, you cannot make the claim of being more precise.


I don't think I said I was more precise, but I guess that is what I meant. Nor did I say that there were only two ways to communicate. I said "more emotional" or "more technical" - lots of room between the extremes. Sure, I guess you could find the mid point then declare that there are only two sides. Like saying that some people are more short and some are more tall. We know that the world consists of more than just short or tall people.

One meaning or another isn't even any more emotional or more technical in practical terms. I defy you to find a journal that would accept "a couple" as part of a formal definition of anything.

As you noted there is "technical" language, where words have very defined meanings. Law, medicine and science are good examples. My initial response was regarding something technical in nature so to say "several" where only "two" was correct prompted me to make a clarification/correction. In this case I will claim to be more precise.

Using "a couple" like that is more precise, but it isn't any more accurate-- again, in practice. It so happens I've met precisely two people in real life who use "a couple" to mean precisely two of something, and even they're somewhat flexible about it.
My understanding was always that "a couple" is less than "several", and "a few" spans a lot of the territory covered by "a couple" and "several", but anyone that got picky about it was always labeled, well, too picky. They could all be anything from two to a little over five, and almost up to ten if you were stretching it. If you were lucky, you could get away with including one, even. That is, that was my understanding from living in different areas of the southern part of the lower peninsula of Michigan for the last 25+ years. The Internet, as it tends to, throws a bit of monkey wrench into that, but the fact is everyone I've ever used the terms with in real life (as far as I can remember) has used them with remarkable consistency, and a lower degree of precision than most people in this thread seem to be used to.

Negotiated meanings

by naturl selexion, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 02:35 (3487 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

Something else. In the ever constant effort to attract attention people, especially news sources, strain the meanings of words to their absolute limits. We hear it all the time and become accustomed to it. In order for us to convey a feeling there is a tendency to select words that aren't actually appropriate. This is fine for story telling. For disseminating information it is not.

When I was a kid new was actually news - for the most part. Now the news is entertainment. Everybody is competing for viewers or readers so they have to make their story the most interesting. Being surrounded, inundated with constant exaggeration is having an effect on our language, and not in the way that helps to share information accurately.

Who is doing the negotiating of the meanings of words? Probably the people that write them and the people that enjoy reading or listening to them. Those who entertain are in the forefront. Those that inform, not so much.

The up side to this is that despite the hyperbole, young people are in general smarter and better informed than ever. At some point the constant exaggeration is going to lose it's appeal and people will value straight talk and not respond to ridiculousness.

Avatar

Negotiated meanings

by Robot Chickens, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 13:08 (3486 days ago) @ naturl selexion

Sorry I ducked out of the conversation yesterday. I didn't mean to post and run, but Iconic was right in his interpretation of my statement that you just can't claim to be more precise in this case.

Who is doing the negotiating of the meanings of words? Probably the people that write them and the people that enjoy reading or listening to them. Those who entertain are in the forefront. Those that inform, not so much.

The up side to this is that despite the hyperbole, young people are in general smarter and better informed than ever. At some point the constant exaggeration is going to lose it's appeal and people will value straight talk and not respond to ridiculousness.

The thing is, language is much more like an evolving species than a frozen system of static rules. Yeah, the rules help give form, and words can't mean anything we want them to, but they do change and in order to communicate well, we have to be able to understand how they are used in other people's discourse. With regard to the News, hyperbole certainly works for a while, but then people become inoculated and learn not to trust certain types of language use. The source of words matters in our interpretation. It doesn't necessarily mean that the word's meaning is lost, but it does mean that when that word comes from a particular source it may mean something different.

I also don't think that valuing 'straight talk' implies a return to certain forms and meanings. Some words will be forever transformed by media use. New words or old words with new meanings can be employed in straight talk. It has much more to do with the source or genre of information than the actual words themselves.

Avatar

Wikipedia offers few answers.

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, May 11, 2015, 23:25 (3487 days ago) @ iconicbanana

You know, another big lie in my life is Earth's magnetic field. I have never successfully built a home-made compass, nor have successfully used a professional compass. Guess living smackdab in the middle of a magnetic anomaly does that to your childhood.

Avatar

You live over a slipspace portal generator?

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 00:53 (3487 days ago) @ ZackDark

- No text -

Avatar

maybe he was born on the island.

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 23:57 (3486 days ago) @ Ragashingo

- No text -

Avatar

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh, can't let the Others find me

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, May 13, 2015, 00:09 (3486 days ago) @ Vortech

- No text -

Avatar

Answer to why Mercury has a magnetic field and not Mars.

by Funkmon @, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 01:17 (3487 days ago) @ dogcow
edited by Funkmon, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 01:28

Disclaimer: I missed taking a planetary geology class, so I'm not 100% about this stuff. There's a TLDR at the end.

Mercury we know has a liquid core that is 80 percent of its radius. This means it's big. More stuff means it'll take a bit longer to cool. We also know that Mercury has lighter elements in its core, particularly sulfur. This supports a concept of radial mixing, which is the idea that in the proto-sun's accretion disk, things from the outer edge managed to still mix with things in the inner edge. We don't, AFAIK, have a good idea about why this happens. Our ideas about solar system formation are completely wonky...but we do know radial mixing happens. We have evidence from comets, meteors, and a few other solar system bodies, and the finding of sulfur, a lighter element, that far in supports this idea.

So, Mercury started with some sulfur in its core, which means the melting point of the substance making up the core is lowered, making it easy to keep spinning. We know its magnetic field is made by a dynamo due to higher than expected libration.

So that's a bit on Mercury.

Mars may not have a magnetic field now due to lack of convection in the core, which is liquid, or at least has a portion that is liquid. If there is no convection, there is no dynamo effect that produces the magnetic field. The question is why. A popular idea that has come about lately which is supported by computer modeling is the idea that during a period called the Late Heavy Bombardment (LHB, a time in the early solar system where there were lots of asteroid-like objects flying around smashing into things), Mars was hit very very hard, heating its mantle to a temperature similar to the core. The core doesn't need to be much hotter than the mantle, on the order of 200 K, but it does need a differential for convection currents to continue. As a result of the lack of temperature difference, convection currents stopped, the dynamo process failed, and the magnetic field was lost.

This hypothesis fits with observations of the surface of Mars, which has old craters (dating to within 500 million years of the planet's formation, the time of the LHB) that show remnants of the old magnetic field. Craters dating to after the LHB however, show no magnetic anomalies like this. At the very least, this is a good indicator the LHB had something to do with it, and there are many hypothesis based upon this, like one that states that Mars HAD no dynamo until the LHB, which some (read: me) find implausible.


TLDR
So, it's hypothetical, but it's possible that, pending more evidence or better hypotheses, Mercury still has a magnetic field due to an accident of its composition (with more sulfur than expected, resulting in a lower melting point), and Mars does not due to an accident of the LHB heating up the mantle and removing convection.

There you are.

Answer to why Mercury has a magnetic field and not Mars.

by Dagoonite, Somewhere in Iowa, lost in a cornfield., Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 01:35 (3487 days ago) @ Funkmon

I wish I would have had you around about five years ago. This is wonderful to have in laymen's terms.

And now I google to get the nitty gritty.

Avatar

But why male models?

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 02:32 (3487 days ago) @ Funkmon

- No text -

Avatar

...are you serious?

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Tuesday, May 12, 2015, 02:35 (3487 days ago) @ Korny

[image]

Avatar

Because blue>red.

by bluerunner @, Music City, Monday, May 11, 2015, 20:28 (3487 days ago) @ iconicbanana

- No text -

Suck it Blues.....

by Monochron, Monday, May 11, 2015, 22:36 (3487 days ago) @ bluerunner

- No text -

Back to the forum index
RSS Feed of thread