Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers) (Destiny)

by Monochron, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 14:27 (3718 days ago)

Finished up all the unique activities last night (save for the higher level PoE events) and thought I would give my opinions on this DLC as whole. Let's break it down into sections.

Story
Much more engaging and interesting than TDB story. While the overall goal was still "kill group A of bad guys so they can't do bad stuff anymore", approaching from a more tactical hunt and destroy viewpoint was interesting. I understood early on, for instance, that Skolas was looking to rally other houses to his cause. Skolas was actually somewhat intelligent; he understood that the Wolves were not as powerful as he needed them to be and he is actively trying to change that. He isn't just a ravenous enemy looking to kill everything he can. Though maybe he is a little of that too. In the mission where we find the Kings meeting with the Wolves there is even a slight sense of "damn, we were too late", creating urgency that the rest of the game has always been lacking. Our enemies seemed legitimately one step ahead of us.

Skolas's belief that he is the mythological "Kell of Kells" goes further to show that he is a little more than a blood thirsty bad guy. He's ego-maniacal and probably legitimately crazy. I would have been really interested to see his character developed a bit more, maybe through cut scenes or longer sequences with him having dialog. Having Riksis translate everything Skolas said worked at first . . . but after we realized that Skolas was never saying anything important it became a bit tiresome. If we had had a real-time translator plugged into our Guardian's helmet or something and could have actually listened to Skolas a bit more we could have had a better chance to really understand his motivations. Did he do all of this simply to become the Kell of Kells or did something happen in the Reef to prompt this? Is he trying to get revenge for something terrible the Guardians or the Awoken did in the past? Maybe it is in the Grimoire, but as faras I can tell he just wanted to make the Wolves really strong. Which is pretty boring.

Having Petra and Rikis doing voice over was a big improvement over previous missions. I have to take back something I said last week about doubting that any of these characters were my allies, Petra and Riksis absolutely felt like it. They weren't super fleshed out but we got to know a little about their motivations and got the impression that they were actively helping us. Would it have been better if we had seen them helping us rather than having them tell us they were helping? Yes. Riksis's voice acting got a little . . . grating after a while, but I think the intent was to make him dramatic anyway. Petra's voice acting had have emotion and humor, I am tempted to call her Destiny's very first character.

PoE
It is certainly fun so far. I have a feeling that the destroy/disable mines objectives will get old very quick though. I was surprised at how the difficulty ratchets up for the boss wave however. The level 28 run I did last night saw no deaths up until that round where we had somewhere around 8. It's a little disappointing that there aren't many new enemy mechanics aside from the rainbow shields on higher difficulties. We have been fighting bullet sponges since launch now, but maybe Bungie sees it as a tried and true activity. I don't see PoE holding my attention like the Raids still do, but at least they are a fun new way to get sweet lewts. Speaking of lewts...


Loot Drop Rates
I am really surprised at how high the loot drop rates are. From what I can tell using a Treasure Key in the PoE usually gives you an Exotic, a Legendary, and various Motes or Coins. That is per-run. I saw people yesterday get 4 Exotics from a couple hours of playing. Plus all sorts of new Legendary weapons and gear. Every video I have seen of people completing it has given a couple things in that range. Compare that to Raids in which you were very very lucky to get one exotic for an hour or two of playing and it looks like I will be full of new drops before too long.
I'm not sure that this is a good thing. I don't want to get too deep into an investment system debate, but I don't see this keeping investment system proponents invested for too long.

Teleporting
I don't fully understand this yet so maybe you guys can fill it in. It looks like certain activities will now teleport you to a different area if you are "camping". For instance, if you stay in a certain hallway in PoE trying to hold your ground, then game teleports you out into the open. Or, as happened to me in the Nightfall, if you manage to get locked out of a room due to an overzealous door the game will teleport you into the middle of that room surrounded by enemies. If this is true, I think it is pretty terrible. Finding a good strategy and sticking to it is something that I find really fun in Destiny. If that strategy is running circles around the enemies dodging shots, cool, if it is defending a good location, I can't do it? I assume this is a proactive anti-cheese method, but I don't know. Staying too long in a Titan's bubble might be dangerous now if the game is going to teleport you right in front of enemies. Hopefully the teleports aren't to random locations, if not then we can at least use a little strategy.
But Teleporting me and Skwatchee in front of enemies during the nightfall because the game decided to lock us behind a door? Not cool.


Bam. Thems my thoughts. Overall, I'm definitely still enjoying it.

Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 14:37 (3718 days ago) @ Monochron

Staying too long in a Titan's bubble might be dangerous now if the game is going to teleport you right in front of enemies.

Heh - they don't need to teleport you out of Titan bubbles - those exploding shanks seem to be attracted to them. :)

Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by Monochron, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 15:27 (3718 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Staying too long in a Titan's bubble might be dangerous now if the game is going to teleport you right in front of enemies.


Heh - they don't need to teleport you out of Titan bubbles - those exploding shanks seem to be attracted to them. :)

Gah jeez. We did get consistently rushed by them while we were hiding in a side room during the Nightfall . . . but in retrospect that was actually really fun. Really kept us on our toes and prevented us from just picking away at the Walker while hiding :D

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Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 14:54 (3718 days ago) @ Monochron

Finished up all the unique activities last night (save for the higher level PoE events) and thought I would give my opinions on this DLC as whole. Let's break it down into sections.

Story
Much more engaging and interesting than TDB story. While the overall goal was still "kill group A of bad guys so they can't do bad stuff anymore", approaching from a more tactical hunt and destroy viewpoint was interesting. I understood early on, for instance, that Skolas was looking to rally other houses to his cause. Skolas was actually somewhat intelligent; he understood that the Wolves were not as powerful as he needed them to be and he is actively trying to change that. He isn't just a ravenous enemy looking to kill everything he can. Though maybe he is a little of that too. In the mission where we find the Kings meeting with the Wolves there is even a slight sense of "damn, we were too late", creating urgency that the rest of the game has always been lacking. Our enemies seemed legitimately one step ahead of us.

I really liked this story arc as well. As you said, it painted the bad guy with a whole lot more than just "Kill the good guys cause I'm supposed to" vibe.

Skolas's belief that he is the mythological "Kell of Kells" goes further to show that he is a little more than a blood thirsty bad guy. He's ego-maniacal and probably legitimately crazy. I would have been really interested to see his character developed a bit more, maybe through cut scenes or longer sequences with him having dialog. Having Riksis translate everything Skolas said worked at first . . . but after we realized that Skolas was never saying anything important it became a bit tiresome. If we had had a real-time translator plugged into our Guardian's helmet or something and could have actually listened to Skolas a bit more we could have had a better chance to really understand his motivations. Did he do all of this simply to become the Kell of Kells or did something happen in the Reef to prompt this? Is he trying to get revenge for something terrible the Guardians or the Awoken did in the past? Maybe it is in the Grimoire, but as faras I can tell he just wanted to make the Wolves really strong. Which is pretty boring.

I feel like this could have been solved partly by what you mentioned but also by actually NOT killing the guy. I understand the urge to kill all the bad guys. I mean, that is what guardians do. But I feel like it's too easy. I think of fallen as rouges, scavengers, sly creatures that use traps and intrigue and not necessarily brute force (like the cabal) to get what they want. So it should be MUCH harder to track and kills their Kells.

I want a story arc where we were unable to kill someone and we are left to ponder "Shit, now what is that guy going to do?" instead we are just waiting for the next bad guy to kill.

A example is after Halo 1, when Guilty Spark was seen flying away at the very end, my first thought was "oh great, now what is that little dip shit up to?"

Having Petra and Rikis doing voice over was a big improvement over previous missions. I have to take back something I said last week about doubting that any of these characters were my allies, Petra and Riksis absolutely felt like it. They weren't super fleshed out but we got to know a little about their motivations and got the impression that they were actively helping us. Would it have been better if we had seen them helping us rather than having them tell us they were helping? Yes. Riksis's voice acting got a little . . . grating after a while, but I think the intent was to make him dramatic anyway. Petra's voice acting had have emotion and humor, I am tempted to call her Destiny's very first character.

I have my own thoughts on Petra...


PoE
It is certainly fun so far. I have a feeling that the destroy/disable mines objectives will get old very quick though. I was surprised at how the difficulty ratchets up for the boss wave however. The level 28 run I did last night saw no deaths up until that round where we had somewhere around 8. It's a little disappointing that there aren't many new enemy mechanics aside from the rainbow shields on higher difficulties. We have been fighting bullet sponges since launch now, but maybe Bungie sees it as a tried and true activity. I don't see PoE holding my attention like the Raids still do, but at least they are a fun new way to get sweet lewts. Speaking of lewts...

I was happy and disappointed with PoE. I was happy that the mechanics of it was not just "bunker down and kill until no one is left", you had to keep moving or you were dead. Also, it actually required a lot of team communication. If your team mates died, you had to find a way to stall until you revived them or you where screwed.

I was disappointed by the lack of build up. I felt like either it was either really easy, or really hard. That leads into what I hoped PoE could possible be. That is an ever increasing challenge arena. That could be a never ending challenge or an end point that only the best 0.01% players could beat. Both of these could be seen in the future, but maybe they just wanted to test the waters first.


Loot Drop Rates
I am really surprised at how high the loot drop rates are. From what I can tell using a Treasure Key in the PoE usually gives you an Exotic, a Legendary, and various Motes or Coins. That is per-run. I saw people yesterday get 4 Exotics from a couple hours of playing. Plus all sorts of new Legendary weapons and gear. Every video I have seen of people completing it has given a couple things in that range. Compare that to Raids in which you were very very lucky to get one exotic for an hour or two of playing and it looks like I will be full of new drops before too long.
I'm not sure that this is a good thing. I don't want to get too deep into an investment system debate, but I don't see this keeping investment system proponents invested for too long.

Totally agree.

Teleporting
I don't fully understand this yet so maybe you guys can fill it in. It looks like certain activities will now teleport you to a different area if you are "camping". For instance, if you stay in a certain hallway in PoE trying to hold your ground, then game teleports you out into the open. Or, as happened to me in the Nightfall, if you manage to get locked out of a room due to an overzealous door the game will teleport you into the middle of that room surrounded by enemies. If this is true, I think it is pretty terrible. Finding a good strategy and sticking to it is something that I find really fun in Destiny. If that strategy is running circles around the enemies dodging shots, cool, if it is defending a good location, I can't do it? I assume this is a proactive anti-cheese method, but I don't know. Staying too long in a Titan's bubble might be dangerous now if the game is going to teleport you right in front of enemies. Hopefully the teleports aren't to random locations, if not then we can at least use a little strategy.
But Teleporting me and Skwatchee in front of enemies during the nightfall because the game decided to lock us behind a door? Not cool.

I never experience this.


Bam. Thems my thoughts. Overall, I'm definitely still enjoying it.

Yeah, same.

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Regarding loot drops...

by slycrel ⌂, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 16:06 (3718 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

...I'm sure this is intentional.

It's fun to get new crap. New crap more often is fun. This was their original intent, until the loot cave kinda exploited a loophole. So they backed off some. I'm glad they are upping it again.

Making some things actually rare in-game is good. Making too much out of reach is demoralizing. It's a fine line. I think they've tweaked their system in a good way to help more people get closer to what they want in general, while still keeping a bunch of things relatively out of reach.

Re-forging gives a sink to some of the materials they have. Disassembly gives out a mote and a few weapons parts -- basically enough to get a single re-roll of a weapon.

The real bottleneck appears to be etheric light. I saw one drop between 3 people for 3 nightfalls. Everything else converts to currency on top of the real goal -- a new chance to get what you really want.

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Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 16:18 (3718 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

feel like this could have been solved partly by what you mentioned but also by actually NOT killing the guy.

We didn't kill the guy.

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Indeed. :)

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 16:24 (3718 days ago) @ Vortech

- No text -

But...

by Earendil, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 16:33 (3718 days ago) @ Vortech

We were going to :)

From Grimoire: Wolve's Gambit:

Uldren: Nearly the whole fleet, your Grace. Back in the Ishtar Sink.

Queen: He fails at his little prophecy, so he'll look to rule from
Simiks-fel, now that Draksis is gone—

Uldren: I thought the same thing, but my Crows say he's not there. We've found more of his Guard leading parties into the Vault of Glass.

Queen: Interesting.

[silence]

Queen: Tell Petra I have changed my mind. Skolas is to be brought in alive.

But...

by Monochron, Thursday, May 21, 2015, 12:45 (3717 days ago) @ Earendil

Yeah that was an interesting change, and that way it makes sense to fight him in the Prison of Elders. I wish however, that we actually saw a difference int eh game for sparing him. Like we learned what his full intentions with the Vex were or something like that.

But...

by Earendil, Thursday, May 21, 2015, 13:33 (3717 days ago) @ Monochron

There are a few Grimoire cards that tell some of what happened after we caught him alive. None of it incredibly revealing in facts, but does reveal some intentions, motivations, and implies that (dun dun DUN!) The queen knows more than she let's on.

Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by Monochron, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 16:36 (3718 days ago) @ Vortech

Which was interesting, no doubt. I will say that I was disappointed that it was the exact same gameplay mechanic rather than doing something interesting to capture him alive. Like, we still just threw bullets at him until his health bar disappeared. It would have been neat to use a specialty weapon to detain him or something, or tried to trap him somewhere.

Still, I enjoyed the last battle, especially at level 32 it was tough.

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Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 18:48 (3718 days ago) @ Monochron

We didn't kill the guy.

Which was interesting, no doubt. I will say that I was disappointed that it was the exact same gameplay mechanic rather than doing something interesting to capture him alive. Like, we still just threw bullets at him until his health bar disappeared. It would have been neat to use a specialty weapon to detain him or something, or tried to trap him somewhere.

Still, I enjoyed the last battle, especially at level 32 it was tough.

Right, I guess we didn't kill him. Everything we did just made it seem like we had. Which is why what I thought was basically the same thing. Deus Ex Machina. It was too easily wrapped up in a bow. I mean, there is still questions about this whole Kell of Kells, but apart from that, I could wipe my hands of the entire story arc. I want to have lots of questions at the end of a story arc or at least one that doesn't quite end.

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Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 19:11 (3718 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

How about this then: What will happen when the true Kell of Kells does arise? The prophecy says that even The Great Machine will take notice or his power or will grant his title or some such thing. That's pretty impressive considering that The Traveler has just sat above Earth for the past few hundred years!

Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by Monochron, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 20:51 (3718 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I have been assuming that Great Machine is the Traveller, but is there any evidence to suggest that it could be something else? The Darkness maybe? Or a Vex machine?

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Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 21:01 (3718 days ago) @ Monochron

I have been assuming that Great Machine is the Traveller, but is there any evidence to suggest that it could be something else? The Darkness maybe? Or a Vex machine?

That would certainly be a surprising twist. All evidence seems to point to the Traveler with references to the City in relation to as well as dead warriors on their "crusade." To me that points to the traveler, but if anybody has another theory I would be very interested in it.

Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by Monochron, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 16:41 (3718 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV
edited by Monochron, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 17:20

I was happy and disappointed with PoE. I was happy that the mechanics of it was not just "bunker down and kill until no one is left", you had to keep moving or you were dead. Also, it actually required a lot of team communication. If your team mates died, you had to find a way to stall until you revived them or you where screwed.

The higher levels do seem to require a lot of coordination and strategies which is nice. The downside seems to be that you need to use this higher level gameplay not because of interesting game mechanics like VoG, but because the difficulty is very high. Honestly though, this isn't a Raid and it is unfair to expect it to play like one. I'm happy with it.

Update, just learned about the new mechanics in the level 35 PoE. Okay, they are actually pretty nice. It looks a lot like a Raid boss fight.

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Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 20:49 (3718 days ago) @ Monochron

PoE
It is certainly fun so far. I have a feeling that the destroy/disable mines objectives will get old very quick though. I was surprised at how the difficulty ratchets up for the boss wave however. The level 28 run I did last night saw no deaths up until that round where we had somewhere around 8. It's a little disappointing that there aren't many new enemy mechanics aside from the rainbow shields on higher difficulties. We have been fighting bullet sponges since launch now, but maybe Bungie sees it as a tried and true activity. I don't see PoE holding my attention like the Raids still do, but at least they are a fun new way to get sweet lewts.

I absolutely breezed through PoE level 34 when I was level 33. No wipes. Contrast this with Crota hard, which is much much tougher being a level lower. I was actually shocked at how easy it was. 35 @ 34 might be the only challenge. It's no raid at all.

You are wrong about no new enemy mechanics though. There's one called Urzok's Rage on level 34. I won't spoil, but let's just say that Angel of Light finally has a use :-p

Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by Monochron, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 20:54 (3718 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I absolutely breezed through PoE level 34 when I was level 33. No wipes. Contrast this with Crota hard, which is much much tougher being a level lower. I was actually shocked at how easy it was. 35 @ 34 might be the only challenge. It's no raid at all.

You are wrong about no new enemy mechanics though. There's one called Urzok's Rage on level 34. I won't spoil, but let's just say that Angel of Light finally has a use :-p

Heh yeah, I updated a more recent post after finding out about the higher level mechanics. Have you seen the level 35 stuff? Reminds me of VoG a bit.

I'm cool with the difficulty not being Raid level, as long as the fun/cooperation/tactics is at a high level. It's hard to make that happen without the difficulty going up though. Either way I'll see when I try out the 35.

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Assortment of HoW thoughts (spoilers)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, May 20, 2015, 21:01 (3718 days ago) @ Monochron

Heh yeah, I updated a more recent post after finding out about the higher level mechanics. Have you seen the level 35 stuff? Reminds me of VoG a bit.

Nope, and no spoils please! :-)

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