why the fuck did it get buffed its so fucking stupid in crucible right now.

why the fuck did it get buffed its so fucking stupid in crucible right now.

I just pulled mine out of the vault. If you can't beat 'em, eh?

I don't know if I'll follow through but I'm curious. The dark side beckons.

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It needed a reload buff the rest is questionable though

why the fuck did it get buffed its so fucking stupid in crucible right now.

Half of the people who play ToO use Thorn. And I hate it. I wouldn't say it's game braking, but it's definitely overpowered even for an exotic.

My thoughts on thorn.

I dont think it is so much that it is overbuffed or too strong or whatever. I think it is because you know when you have been killed by it. thats how it is for me anyway. You can get killed by whatever and not really know but as soon as you have been hit with Thorn you know because of the green screen. Therefore I know "damn thorn got me again" and thats what makes me want to pull it out.

That being said, It is still a great gun. and Exotic handcannons seem to be the current flavor in the crucible. I prefer the VEX through. muahahaha

Bungie seems to have issues balancing weapons in general. Auto Rifles are too powerful? Let's make them close to worthless while also making some other gun obnoxiously overpowered. Because why balance when we can just swap?

Bungie seems to have issues balancing weapons in general. Auto Rifles are too powerful? Let's make them close to worthless while also making some other gun obnoxiously overpowered. Because why balance when we can just swap?

I actually feel as though most stuff is pretty well balanced now. EXCEPT Thorn. That motherf*cker is a joke.

I know ARs are lesser now, but I still get smoked by them if the context is appropriate...i.e. mid-range, while I'm using PR or HC or something.

I kinda base my "things are well-balanced" opinion based on how I get killed. At this point, seems pretty randomly spread.

EXCEPT Thorn.

Apologies if you lost an AR that you loved...

Bungie seems to have issues balancing weapons in general. Auto Rifles are too powerful? Let's make them close to worthless while also making some other gun obnoxiously overpowered. Because why balance when we can just swap?

I actually feel as though most stuff is pretty well balanced now. EXCEPT Thorn. That motherf*cker is a joke.

I know ARs are lesser now, but I still get smoked by them if the context is appropriate...i.e. mid-range, while I'm using PR or HC or something.

I kinda base my "things are well-balanced" opinion based on how I get killed. At this point, seems pretty randomly spread.

EXCEPT Thorn.

Apologies if you lost an AR that you loved...

Haha. I had two ARs of choice, one of which being Suros, and now I won't touch them. I can't honestly say I'm being killed by much of anything other than Hand Cannons (edit: and Mythoclast), and my own Hand Cannons are doing an awesome job of beating Pulse/Scout Rifles at range (when they probably should rarely be able to do that).

Also, when I see a team in Trials using anything other than Last Word, Thorn, Fatebringer, or Mythoclast (or some combo thereof between their members), I know they're going to lose. So far so good on that front. Thorn and Last Word seem to be the end all be all, whereas pre-buffs it was all Suros (at least in reference to exotics).

Bungie seems to have issues balancing weapons in general. Auto Rifles are too powerful? Let's make them close to worthless while also making some other gun obnoxiously overpowered. Because why balance when we can just swap?

Maybe others don't see it this way, but I much prefer a single powerful shot weapon type to be dominant in PvP games. The M6D, the Battle Rifle, the DMR. Bungie has always made these weapons king in multiplayer. I can certainly agree though, that auto rifles are a bit too useless at the moment. Shotguns make them worthless at close range, and handcannons make them useless at mid range. I imagine they could fill a role in between the two, but that's a tough balancing act.

Neither is\was the Mythoclast.

Or the Boltshot in Halo 4.

Or Armor lock in Reach.

Or the Mauler in Halo 3.

Or the PP\BR combo in Halo 2.

People just don't like getting killed with it. It is perceived as a cheap kill by a lot of people because they try to fight it like they fight most normal encounters and they lose.

It's just like the guns above. You get killed with it. You get mad. You start getting aggressive and flustered. You get killed with it again. You get more mad. You start making more mistakes, thus getting killed with it again and again. The gun MUST be OP. That is the only logical explanation! Nerf! NERF!

Whenever I got donk'd on by a Boltshot user, 99% of the time it was me being stupid and overly aggressive, essentially feeding them kills, playing into their terms.

You just can't take on a Thorn player like you would someone using TDYK, or Hawkmoon. You have to play a little more conservative, a little sneakier.

But that's just my opinion.

(Personally, out of all the exotic bounties (pre-HoW anyway) the Thorn bounty is actually challenging, and hard to earn. I'm not a fan of the PvP stage of earning it, but I must say, until Xur sells it, you aren't going to see everyone with one. It only feels that way.)

You just had to bring up that Boltshot. Ah, good times. :P

You just had to bring up that Boltshot. Ah, good times. :P

It literally is the same argument.

Same game, different name.

Same shit, different day.

Except that the Boltshot was not balanced, and 343 acknowledged that when they fixed the gun. It's still powerful, and I still can't stand it, but it's not what it used to be. They also messed with a bunch of other weapons due to balancing issues (some in good ways, others in not). I agree that it's the same argument, because just like in H4, some things in Destiny definitely are not balanced correctly. If Bungie comes along and bumps down Thorn or others, and I assume buffs up something else, it will also be a recognition of balance issues (just as it was with the Suros previously).

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My team would of been undefeated if it wasn't for a team of Hunter twats with Thorn. That gun seriously needs to be banned from Trials, well over 50% used it in my experience. Lingering damage is some bullshit.

Seriously, dust those puppies off... They're great now.

Agree.

It's all I use in Crucible and you're so correct that it makes people furious when they try to tackle me like I was using a different gun. I have watched people specifically keep coming after me after I kill them and keep dying the same way. If you don't play safer with Thorn users, you die quicker.

I like wearing someone down and then watching as they get frustrated and their game slips.

I don't think it's overpowered but I think that it's correct that people are just more aware when dying from Thorn kills.

CC

The best part of the thorn bounty is it teaches you how to play with a thorn style. You have to get more kills than deaths so you have to learn to play more defensively.

the bounty rewards the play style of the weapon. pretty cool IMHO

Thorn especially - guaranteed kill on 3 shots, or 2 headshots, with no tradeoff like having to hip fire like TLW.

The worst part is the burn. Winning a tradeoff by shooting better than them (headshots where thru got bodyshots) only to then know they're still getting the kill despite being outgunned is horrible.

Potentially more so in Trials, where a kill trade often results in both teams trying to recover rather than push with even sides. But if the kill trade is a delayed one (even if by a second) they get that revive (and overshield) a second earlier, which can be fatal.

You just can't take on a Thorn player like you would someone using TDYK, or Hawkmoon. You have to play a little more conservative, a little sneakier.

So when I talk about hating thorn users, I mostly reference ToO because a vast majority of players use it. Playing against people how use hand cannons In ToO is hard enough, but when you are playing against a thorn user, it's even harder. You suggest being sneakier, but it's nigh impossible to be sneaky in ToO because everyone is on edge. I rarely ever ask myself "where did that guy come from?" and I'm not even that good.

When you play a regular crucible game, I don't care nearly as much, because the stakes of dying are nearly as high (as has been mentioned). I'm people know by now that I don't like Hand Cannons, using them more than playing against them. I also love that there are guns that make an experienced player better when they are using a gun to the max of it's ability. But I just think is way to good than other primaries when used in the hands of an experienced player.

It completely works against the existing RoF/Impact dynamic by making a weapon with an abnormally high DpS. That would be okay if Bungie hadn't based their entire weapon system on RoF/Impact archetypes, but having a gun that literally does more damage in a shorter time than any similar gun is nonsense.

Besides which, the DoT means that even if you outperform a Thorn user (land 4 hits vs their 3 with the same archetype or get more headshots with a slower, stronger one) and still only kil trade. That's nonsense.

If I run into a Thorn user with another HC and hit them in the head 3 times but they hit me in the body 3 times, I should win that engagement. But I don't. When a gun nullifies skill gap, it's OP.

Lingering damage also delays shield regen, which means a player who isn't killed by thorn is still out of combat for longer than if they were damaged by any other weapon.

Lastly, in Iron Banner and Trials of Osiris style fights, Thorn's damage + DoT appear to scale up more than other weapons, such that a level 34 player with Thorn gets more bonus damage against a level 33 player than a level 34 player with Hawkmoon would, for example. Or Thorn's damage just hits that sweet spot where it tips the scales with the bonus, but I know a level 34 player with Thorn kills a level 32 player in 2 body shots, which no other primary weapon can do.

I saw that going in as a level 32 last weekend. Poke my head out, get hit by two 34s firing 1 shot each with Thorn, dead right away.

My balancing solution: lower its rate of fire. Maybe to the same rate as Timur's Lash.

Instead of DoT, it should just keep the delay on shield regen. You'd still be weakened and easier to kill for a short period, forcing more situational awareness (and allowimg teammates to pick up the assist), but it wouldn't kill you after you already won the fight.

It completely works against the existing RoF/Impact dynamic by making a weapon with an abnormally high DpS. That would be okay if Bungie hadn't based their entire weapon system on RoF/Impact archetypes, but having a gun that literally does more damage in a shorter time than any similar gun is nonsense.

Besides which, the DoT means that even if you outperform a Thorn user (land 4 hits vs their 3 with the same archetype or get more headshots with a slower, stronger one) and still only kil trade. That's nonsense.

If I run into a Thorn user with another HC and hit them in the head 3 times but they hit me in the body 3 times, I should win that engagement. But I don't. When a gun nullifies skill gap, it's OP.

I'm starting to think ToO is the problem. Not Thorn.

It doesn't nullify anything, other than your sense of calm in a match haha.

Lingering damage, is I believe 7 points for a few seconds. I don't recall off the top of my head if the damage stacks or not, I want to say it does but with a limit, and that might only apply to pvp or pve.

So what\where is the REAL problem about Thorn?

Is it OP in ToO?
IB?
Regular crucible?

Everywhere?

*Remember* just because you feel that everyone is using it, does not mean that it is overpowered (Mob rules and all that).

In regular crucible, if you try to tell me, that Thorn is OP with a straight face, I'll laugh at you. All the weapon damage\defense there is normalized. I have this mental picture painted of you all telling me that a Thorn user just steam rolls the opposition- it can't possibly.It's good for mopping up weak players, keeping someone suppressed, or postmortem bounties. You might as well be a janitor with it and it a mop, because it just cleans up others work.

NOW, if you want to argue with me that it is OP in ToO, I'm inclined to give you a little room, with a caveat: What the hell is the point of competitive MP in Destiny, if powers\perks\abilities benefits aren't enabled?

Trials of Osiris is broken, and unfair ; Thorn is a symptom, not the problem.

• ToO is highly competitive
  
• Power advantages are enabled. This is a problem.
  
• This makes the competition "unfair" and some weapons more appealing than others, compared to vanilla crucible.
  
• There is no matchmaking- you must go in with a team.
  
• There is no separating 32s and higher levels. A good 32 will probably lose a FF to a mediocre 34.
  
• Thorn exacerbates the problem due to the nature of the gun, and the high stakes of ToO, leading to false cries for NERFS.

SOLUTION

Trials of Osiris needs to be [ELIMINATION + SKIRMISH]

Trials of Osiris needs to NOT be [ELIMINATION + IRON BANNER]

If it's Thorn today, it will be some other gun tomorrow. So it's not the weapons, it's the mode. Yep. I'm pretty sure now.

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To me, Thorn is a tool, best used in the right context.

Thorn is a gun that is designed to get in your head- to trick you into making a bad decision.

You get caught out in the open, doesn't matter what the weapon is- odds are you gon die.

You get shot by a player two levels above you, with power advantages enabled - you gon die. weapon doesn't matter.

In a high tension ToO match, the stakes are high, you're on edge, trying to win. You get hit with the poison and it makes you panic. THAT, is how it beats you. Well, if you are the same level that is :P

To me, Thorn is a tool, best used in the right context.

Which is how all guns should be.

Thorn is a gun that is designed to get in your head- to trick you into making a bad decision.

Personally, people keep saying this, but it doesn't for me. At all. I care more about the DoT than the UI effects. Which I might add, does make a difference between a kill and not.

You get caught out in the open, doesn't matter what the weapon is- odds are you gon die.

So you are saying that a thorn user wins against every other primary when you can't duck behind cover? That sir is stupid. Mainly because it's actually the opposite. Thorn's DoT should make a thorn user want to duck into cover after the DoT takes affect.

You get shot by a player two levels above you, with power advantages enabled - you gon die. weapon doesn't matter.

Well yeah. Chah.

In a high tension ToO match, the stakes are high, you're on edge, trying to win. You get hit with the poison and it makes you panic. THAT, is how it beats you. Well, if you are the same level that is :P

I still disagree with the fact that Thorn wins by making people panic. Equal skill and composure, thorn will win against other primaries.

To me, Thorn is a tool, best used in the right context.

Which is how all guns should be.

Thorn is a gun that is designed to get in your head- to trick you into making a bad decision.

Personally, people keep saying this, but it doesn't for me. At all. I care more about the DoT than the UI effects. Which I might add, does make a difference between a kill and not.

You get caught out in the open, doesn't matter what the weapon is- odds are you gon die.

So you are saying that a thorn user wins against every other primary when you can't duck behind cover? That sir is stupid. Mainly because it's actually the opposite. Thorn's DoT should make a thorn user want to duck into cover after the DoT takes affect.

No, I'm saying that if you are out in the open it doesn't matter WHAT is shooting at you, you are probably dead.

You get shot by a player two levels above you, with power advantages enabled - you gon die. weapon doesn't matter.

Well yeah. Chah.

In a high tension ToO match, the stakes are high, you're on edge, trying to win. You get hit with the poison and it makes you panic. THAT, is how it beats you. Well, if you are the same level that is :P

I still disagree with the fact that Thorn wins by making people panic. Equal skill and composure, thorn will win against other primaries.

See I don't- Thorn is the only gun (correct me if I'm wrong) that does something to the targets hud, to let them know they've been tagged. Flash Grenades do this, but they are grenades so we'll let them pass.

In a NORMAL crucible game, you don't freak out, because the stakes aren't as high. In IB or ToO however, you get tagged, you need to seek cover, fast.

The fact is, in crucible, your deaths don't don't matter like they do in ToO.

ToO is the problem, not Thorn.

I would like to try it again, on a map I've played more and without radar. I think Radar is not right for this game type, but I know that majority would rather have it. Ehh.

I maxed out my Suros the other day to see if it would do anything, and I tried using it again for a few Crucible matches. My results were poor. It just can't stand up to things like Thorn or Mythoclast. Had to go back to rocking a Hand Cannon.

Instead of DoT, it should just keep the delay on shield regen. You'd still be weakened and easier to kill for a short period, forcing more situational awareness (and allowimg teammates to pick up the assist), but it wouldn't kill you after you already won the fight.

I actually proposed something similar: keep the DoT, but make it so it only brings you within a single shot from an auto rifle from death. Still better than the vast majority of guns in PvP since it keeps your shields down longer, plus you can sneeze on them and they die. This of course would cause riots.

See I don't- Thorn is the only gun (correct me if I'm wrong) that does something to the targets hud, to let them know they've been tagged. Flash Grenades do this, but they are grenades so we'll let them pass.

In a NORMAL crucible game, you don't freak out, because the stakes aren't as high. In IB or ToO however, you get tagged, you need to seek cover, fast.

The fact is, in crucible, your deaths don't don't matter like they do in ToO.

ToO is the problem, not Thorn.

I would like to try it again, on a map I've played more and without radar. I think Radar is not right for this game type, but I know that majority would rather have it. Ehh.

If thorn brakes ToO, why should ToO change?

Just for clarity's sake, I just want to let you know, in all objectivity and fairness, that I like Thorn. I also want to let you know that I have not used Thorn. Not once. Not on my account or anyone else's accounts that I've played on. But I still like Thorn. I like going up against people who use Thorn, especially if in a game mode like Trials. I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not against Thorn at all. If it stays the same forever because Bungie agrees with you and doesn't view it as overpowered, I'm okay with that.

My posts above in this thread primarily reflect that I still feel the gun is overpowered (even if I personally don't mind it), as well as some Hand Cannons in general when compared to the other guns in the game. I feel that this is regardless of game mode.

I also COMPLETELY agree with you about how people approach players with Thorn. I don't care what game type you're in. If you know someone has Thorn, or if you're anticipating everyone having it, there are certain ways of dealing with those situations. Thorn still may take you down and have an inherent edge in many situations (sneaky or otherwise), but there are a few ways to beat the other gamer by using skill. Strafing like in Halo actually still works, especially if you can make the Thorn wielder miss a shot or two while landing your own. Just saying.

Additionally, I fully feel that Thorn is nowhere near as overpowered as the Boltshot was in a game like Halo, whether in Trials or any other game mode. I just threw this statement in here to give you an idea of where I stand in comparison since you know I fought tooth and nail against pro-Boltshot arguments years ago.

I also disagree that the game mode is the problem. I almost feel like this is a "wait and see" approach to balancing. Either Bungie will release something that nerfs Hand Cannons in general a bit (potentially targeting Thorn specifically on top of whatever general changes they make), or they won't. If they do, I'd call that an admission of things being overpowered or unbalanced, especially if they then provide buffs to other weapon types.

In a high tension ToO match, the stakes are high, you're on edge, trying to win. You get hit with the poison and it makes you panic. THAT, is how it beats you. Well, if you are the same level that is :P[/size]

No. I kill the man. He's dead because I got the jump on him, or outmaneuvred him, or because I have better aim. Or even just because I got lucky. He's already dead and I've won the fight. And then I die, because lingering damage lets him kill me despite my performance being better than his.

The fact is, in crucible, your deaths don't don't matter like they do in ToO.

Except Thorn is just as OP in Crucible. It doesn't matter as much with lower stakes, but it's still true.

The Thorn DoT rewards skilled play if you can tag them and then keep out of sight, so removing the DoT altogether might be too extreme - if someone gets the drop on me or outshoots me, I deserve it. I just wish it didn't get those postmortems after I've beaten someone.

I mean, the entire genre is based on individual firefights where the winner is the one with the most skill (or occasionally luck). Thorn lets you circumvent that to a degree.

What if the DoT stops if the Thorn user dies? I think I would no longer have an issue with it then, and it would provide incentive to eliminate the target rather than run.

What if the DoT stops if the Thorn user dies? I think I would no longer have an issue with it then, and it would provide incentive to eliminate the target rather than run.

Unless it's been patched recently, this is how the Sunsinger's touch-of-flame grenades already work. My enemies stop burning as soon as I'm dead.

Ive notices that they also don't even start burning if you die before it lands. Id be olay with similar Thorn mechanics - punish me if I cant kill you, just not if I can.

Though annoyingly they sometimes do absolutely nothing in that scenario, which... Might be intentional? Does this happen with other grenades?

The Thorn DoT rewards skilled play if you can tag them and then keep out of sight, so removing the DoT altogether might be too extreme - if someone gets the drop on me or outshoots me, I deserve it. I just wish it didn't get those postmortems after I've beaten someone.

I mean, the entire genre is based on individual firefights where the winner is the one with the most skill (or occasionally luck). Thorn lets you circumvent that to a degree.

What if the DoT stops if the Thorn user dies? I think I would no longer have an issue with it then, and it would provide incentive to eliminate the target rather than run.

I've been kind of juggling this one around in my brain: what if the Thorn user and his target both burn when the shooter hits the target? Not really possible, I just like the idea of Thorn cutting both ways, like a scale of justice (it would get tricky if you started burning multiple enemies, and how much burn was incurred or would it stack, who gets credit if the shooter burns to death, etc).

Yep. Some of the grenades fizzle if you die before they trigger. Axion Bolt, Fire Bolt, and Arc Bolt for sure just plain don't trigger their seeking / auto target effect if you die first. They will do some amount of damage (beyond the 2 direct hit "bonk" damage that ensures you get an assist if someone kills your target before your grenade goes off) if the thrown part of the grenade hits an enemy but that's all... and they won't light someone on fire for a Warlock. Also, the Gunslinger's flaming knife stops flaming if you die before it hits... sometimes it even seems to just vanish entirely but that might be slight lag correction.

I'm pretty sure any Damage over Time effect, like Touch of Flame will play all the way out regardless if you die or not though... as long as it starts before you die.

The Thorn DoT rewards skilled play if you can tag them and then keep out of sight, so removing the DoT altogether might be too extreme - if someone gets the drop on me or outshoots me, I deserve it. I just wish it didn't get those postmortems after I've beaten someone.

I mean, the entire genre is based on individual firefights where the winner is the one with the most skill (or occasionally luck). Thorn lets you circumvent that to a degree.

What if the DoT stops if the Thorn user dies? I think I would no longer have an issue with it then, and it would provide incentive to eliminate the target rather than run.

I've been kind of juggling this one around in my brain: what if the Thorn user and his target both burn when the shooter hits the target? Not really possible, I just like the idea of Thorn cutting both ways, like a scale of justice (it would get tricky if you started burning multiple enemies, and how much burn was incurred or would it stack, who gets credit if the shooter burns to death, etc).

This sounds crazy and stupid... and provides a good argument against always using Thorn.

I like it!

I'm pretty sure any Damage over Time effect, like Touch of Flame will play all the way out regardless if you die or not though... as long as it starts before you die.

Nope. I played as a Sunsinger enough last iron banner to know this isn't the case.

Weird. Because the flame punch effect does stay around after death because I know I've gotten post mortems that way. I figured the grenades and punch apply the same effect since both are affected by Viking Funeral...

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And this is where Thorn ends up being an overpowered gun. And it's by no means the only Hand Cannon that is, but it's definitely the worst offender.

That's the biggest thing. Yes, I think hand cannons in general are a bit OP, but I can deal with them in general. But Thorns ability to kill you after you outgunned your opponent is such BS.

On a side note, in terms of range I think it should go shotgun-handcannon-auto rifle-pulse rifle-scout rifle-sniper

You're all crazy.

If I get killed by Thorn, 9 times out of 10 it's the impact damage that kills me, not the poison.

The poison only gets me if I've already taken damage from somewhere else.

Enemy player A shoots me, but I kill him.

Enemy player B hits me once with Thorn, and it finishes me off. Or I try to run around the corner, and then the poison gets me, because I was already weakened.

Agree to disagree, dude.

I'm telling y'all it's all in your head.

The gun is fine for normal play, ToO is what needs some tweaking. The only way for it all to be "fair" is Final Destination, no items, Fox McCloud only.

Maybe we all need to go in and play some games and record how many times we get killed by it ;)

You're all crazy.

If I get killed by Thorn, 9 times out of 10 it's the impact damage that kills me, not the poison.

The poison only gets me if I've already taken damage from somewhere else.

Enemy player A shoots me, but I kill him.

Enemy player B hits me once with Thorn, and it finishes me off. Or I try to run around the corner, and then the poison gets me, because I was already weakened.

9 times out of 10, eh? I don't buy it. Thorn's impact is rarely what kills me or the people I play with. You were willing to go so far as to blame an entire game type above. You were dead wrong years ago about Boltshot. You have a bad track record in weapon balancing convos. Pretty sure the people in this thread aren't crazy.

Agree to disagree, dude.

I'm telling y'all it's all in your head.

The gun is fine for normal play, ToO is what needs some tweaking. The only way for it all to be "fair" is Final Destination, no items, Fox McCloud only.

It's been this way without Trials. Again, at this point I'm convinced that you mostly have no idea what you're talking about.

Maybe we all need to go in and play some games and record how many times we get killed by it ;)

My whole crew did last night while openly discussing this thread. I nearly recorded about 11 videos backing my point and others' here for you, but I decided, and I think your post backs my decision, that it's not worth the time.

You're all crazy.

If I get killed by Thorn, 9 times out of 10 it's the impact damage that kills me, not the poison.

The poison only gets me if I've already taken damage from somewhere else.

Enemy player A shoots me, but I kill him.

Enemy player B hits me once with Thorn, and it finishes me off. Or I try to run around the corner, and then the poison gets me, because I was already weakened.

9 times out of 10, eh? I don't buy it. Thorn's impact is rarely what kills me or the people I play with. You were willing to go so far as to blame an entire game type above. You were dead wrong years ago about Boltshot. You have a bad track record in weapon balancing convos. Pretty sure the people in this thread aren't crazy.

Agree to disagree, dude.

I'm telling y'all it's all in your head.

The gun is fine for normal play, ToO is what needs some tweaking. The only way for it all to be "fair" is Final Destination, no items, Fox McCloud only.

It's been this way without Trials. Again, at this point I'm convinced that you mostly have no idea what you're talking about.

Maybe we all need to go in and play some games and record how many times we get killed by it ;)

My whole crew did last night while openly discussing this thread. I nearly recorded about 11 videos backing my point and others' here for you, but I decided, and I think your post backs my decision, that it's not worth the time.

Why you do this? You play this game, where you "agree" with me on something, and then attempt to belittle me. On point:

Dude, you and I don't see eye to eye on anything, and I was "dead wrong" about the boltshot, eh?

Not in a million years.

343 did what 343 likes to do, which is try to please everyone, thus pleasing no one. So when the most vocal of complainers piss and moan that the BS needed to change, they did it to appease what player base they have left. For all I try to defend them with, they have a -terrible- habit of not doing what they say, and not saying what they mean. "14 day buy and play" comes to mind.

It wasn't because the gun was broken, you doofus, if was to keep their crumbling population for crumbling further.

"We heard your cries and agree, the boltshot is OP and needs to be tweaked!" really meant "Please don't stop playing our game! We'll do whatever you want! Just play!"

Thorn.

In a previous post you mention you haven't even used Thorn yourself... So how, exactly, is that supposed to make your points, uh...valid?

Oh, you get killed with it a lot? So that must make you qualified enough to say it needs to be nerfed. Riiiiiiiight.

Tell ya what, do the Thorn bounty, level the gun, and take it for a spin in Crucible.

If you go on an undisputed, multiple game spanning, run of absolute destruction with it, I'll hear you out.

But until you actually use the thing, I will hear none of your arguments, because they lack KEY input.

I suggest that this is where you and I part ways, conversationally.

Historically, we see eye to eye on nothing.

We know how to push each others buttons.

Neither of us is going to sway the other.

Time to move along.

That's the biggest thing. Yes, I think hand cannons in general are a bit OP, but I can deal with them in general. But Thorns ability to kill you after you outgunned your opponent is such BS.

On a side note, in terms of range I think it should go shotgun-handcannon-auto rifle-pulse rifle-scout rifle-sniper

I would actually say it should go:
Shotgun->Auto Rifle->Hand Cannon->Pulse rifle->Scout rifle->Sniper

In a high tension ToO match, the stakes are high, you're on edge, trying to win. You get hit with the poison and it makes you panic. THAT, is how it beats you. Well, if you are the same level that is :P[/size]

No. I kill the man. He's dead because I got the jump on him, or outmaneuvred him, or because I have better aim. Or even just because I got lucky. He's already dead and I've won the fight. And then I die, because lingering damage lets him kill me despite my performance being better than his.

So I'm staying out of this argument for the most part, but this piece makes me wonder:

Are you saying that ANY kill that happens AFTER YOU DIE is inherently unfair... or JUST Thorn kills?

That is: if I know I'm outgunned, and I believe I'm going to die, I'll often throw a grenade at the end of a fight, even though doing so means I don't get in one or two more shots (which might have succeeded in killing my opponent) - because I KNOW that the grenade damage will kill him after I'm dead. I'm okay with this - it's a choice I've made. Is this unfair?

If it's not, why not?

If I get killed by Thorn, 9 times out of 10 it's the impact damage that kills me, not the poison.

And that's fine. I've said so many times that if I'm beaten in a straight shootout (or even a lopsided one) I'm cool with it. If you're better than me I'll be dead, and you'll be alive - that's the entire FPS dynamic.

Agree to disagree, dude.
I'm telling y'all it's all in your head.

I don't understand. Am I supposed to believe that the times I've been postmortemed (or got one - I've been known to pull out Thorn on occasion) didn't happen?

If your argument was "Yeah it does that and I think it's fair" then I'd understand. I'd disagree, but I'd get it. But the argument as far as I understand is "Nah, that doesn't happen, don't be silly. It just gets in your head is all".

Maybe it doesn't happen to you, but it happens to me (and others, evidently) frequently. Don't act like it's a non-issue just because it doesn't happen to you. (Also please stop suggesting I "not panic" when I've said multiple times that that's not the problem.)

Side note: It's also not that I notice Thorn more often. I always know what kills me, because I check the top-right corner.

The gun is fine for normal play, ToO is what needs some tweaking. The only way for it all to be "fair" is Final Destination, no items, Fox McCloud only.

It doesn't need to be "fair". Few Exotics are. Just let it be a reflection of skill, rather than bridging a skill gap by messing with the fundamental FPS dynamic.

My proposal would be just to stop the DoT if the wielder dies - would let a skilled player save themself while still keeping most of it's current usefulness (and still melting people who try to run instead of fight).

I think it's fine.

#seriouslynerfexotichandcannons

Grenades are different for 3 main reasons. First - everyone has a grenade, so it's not as lopsided an affair. It also runs on a cooldown, so it's not available in every engagement, while Thorn is. It also has to be used separately and consciously, knowing that it will reset the cooldown and requiring a separate action - Thorn's DoT happens as a matter of course, just by using your gun normally.

Like you said, grenades are a choice and they come at the cost of being able to keep firing. The same applies to melee abilities. Thorn is Guaranteed DoT available at all times and alll ranges, with no cooldown.

If your argument was "Yeah it does that and I think it's fair" then I'd understand. I'd disagree, but I'd get it. But the argument as far as I understand is "Nah, that doesn't happen, don't be silly. It just gets in your head is all".

As much as I think it is entirely possible, I don't think it's happened to me a lot. Most of the times I outshoot a Thorn user, if I do it fast enough, I escape with a sliver of health. I don't recall dying to the DoT on 1v1s. Not saying it doesn't help the kill, hell, it does a good part of the job, but I don't recall not dying to a shot unless there were others whittling down my health as well.

My point is, basically, that it might be possible he has never really experienced this event. Not trying to disprove any of you nor argue that Thorn isn't damn powerful.

And I don't mean to call Rev a liar or anything silly like that. It's totally possible it's never happened to him. But it does happen, and it's not infrequent (for me).

I just feel like it's being dismissed unfairly as an argument (and considering I actually have no issue with the rest of Thorn, I feel like it's not an extreme argument).

Sorry to hear that. I never really liked SUROS (too slow to fire when aiming, imo... Damage bonus of "glass half full" not worth it... Health replenish not reliable) but my Shadow Price hits the right fire rate to stagger enemy aims.

I will say that Mythoclast is destroying me since they re-buffed it. It's incredible to see. Apparently it has its own drawbacks due to limited ammo and the way the bullets travel which doesn't work well with laggy situations, but since I don't have one all I ever see is the business end of the gun. :(

If I get killed by Thorn, 9 times out of 10 it's the impact damage that kills me, not the poison.

And that's fine. I've said so many times that if I'm beaten in a straight shootout (or even a lopsided one) I'm cool with it. If you're better than me I'll be dead, and you'll be alive - that's the entire FPS dynamic.

Agree to disagree, dude.
I'm telling y'all it's all in your head.

I don't understand. Am I supposed to believe that the times I've been postmortemed (or got one - I've been known to pull out Thorn on occasion) didn't happen?

No.

You know when they happen, I know when they happen. It's what makes Thorn unique, it's a bit a Pyrrhic victory a lot of times- You're mad you killed the Thorn user and the poison got you, which is what the Thorn user is wishing for. BUT, it still means you got the kill. Neither of you is technically better off. They killed you, but they were already dead, too.

Of course, I'm being general here and not taking into account team score etc, perhaps that postmortem also happens to be the final kill needed to push his team over the edge to victory- I'm sure it's happened, rarely.

But it doesn't dominate. The magazine isn't large enough that it could devastate a whole team, and not everyone has one. AND, a team that DOES use all Thorns does so at the expense of other weapons, and thus tactical options. I'll be very curious to see it play out on other maps for ToO. Personally, I feel the best counter to a Thorn is simply not being alone.

It's a predator's weapon. Maybe even kamikaze, to an extent...
("If you kill me I'm taking you down with me!")

I didn't get to run much ToO due to schedule, but when I DID play, If I have something that fires faster and staggers my opponent, it was a non issue. My B-Line trauma was fairly useful, in this regard. The games we did play with it, I was already weak when killed with it- poison or not, they could sneeze on me and I'd be dead. VERY, VERY rarely in any crucible match have I been tagged, ducked behind cover, and then had the poison finish me off. When it did, I had already been involved in a firefight, and what can I say? The advantage was theirs, and they took it.

If your argument was "Yeah it does that and I think it's fair" then I'd understand. I'd disagree, but I'd get it. But the argument as far as I understand is "Nah, that doesn't happen, don't be silly. It just gets in your head is all".

When I say "It's in your head" I'm referring to the prevalence or how common the weapon itself is in PVP. Remember, many players will never, ever get the Thorn because the Void PvP step of the bounty is VERY tough for most. If Xur ever sells it, maybe you guys are right, but for now, I see plenty of variety. With Thorn, you just, IDK man, NOTICE it more, because it's so in your face when you get tagged with it.

Maybe it doesn't happen to you, but it happens to me (and others, evidently) frequently. Don't act like it's a non-issue just because it doesn't happen to you. (Also please stop suggesting I "not panic" when I've said multiple times that that's not the problem.)

Again, the general panic. Not you, every time, as an individual. Person is already upset about getting killed by Thorn. They play a game and get shot with it, they get more mad, they make bad decisions. I see it as a cycle, and in terms of ToO, a catalyst to a volatile situation.

Side note: It's also not that I notice Thorn more often. I always know what kills me, because I check the top-right corner.

Many don't. With Thorn, you don't even need to. That, to me, is what makes it more "noticeable" and rage inducing.

The gun is fine for normal play, ToO is what needs some tweaking. The only way for it all to be "fair" is Final Destination, no items, Fox McCloud only.

It doesn't need to be "fair". Few Exotics are. Just let it be a reflection of skill, rather than bridging a skill gap by messing with the fundamental FPS dynamic.

OK, lets touch on that point, RIGHT THERE. -IF- it doesn't need to be "fair", then what, is the point of this, this being mad about Thorn?

Fair is fair, right? Or would that be unfair? If it's a competition, and that is the way to victory, then this is a total, can't beat em join em thing. The people that don't have a Thorn? Tough tits. They know the risks entering that playlist. (And if we continue this path, it will inevitably make some bleeding-heart type cry that they're being excluded. Slippery slope!)

Now, lets touch on point #2:Friend, if you want it to be a true reflection of skill, then it has to devolve, into equal terms on both sides, in all ways, and Destiny ain't that kind of game. That's why people like Snipe and Schooly don't play it- they HATE (and I sympathize) that they can dominate with gun play, only to have a guaranteed super per game kill them, and wipe that perfect score.

SO, when it comes to "fair" and a "true test of skill", it's 100% subjective on what is "fair" and what is "skill".

To make it "fair", you'd have something like this:

• Super Match Making that pits teams equally not only based on RANK, but CLASS (hunter vs hunter, titan vs titan, across all team combinations, YOWZA)
  
• Class abilities would have to be turned off.
  
• Starting weapons would have to be the same.
  
• Special and Heavy weapons would have to be the same.
  
• Grenades would need to be the same, with same timer, or disabled. (To stop crys of flashbang or tripmine abuse)
  
• Supers would need to be disabled. Too game changing in a clutch moment.
  
• more that I can't think of ATM?

You would have to strip SO MUCH out of Destiny to do that, that it just becomes MLG Halo, and if that is the game, then I need to fucking move on because MLG is the lamest shit to ever lame a lame.

IS IRON BANNER the definition of "Fair" in Destiny?

-OR-

IS "MLG Style" the definition of "Fair" in Destiny?

THIS IS MY DILEMMA, and why I postulate that ToO needs to be reworked, rather than Thorn, and weapons like it such as Mythoclast or TLW.

I LOVE elimination style gameplay, but THE VERY NATURE of DESTINY is FRUSTRATING, because ANYTHING can be "cheap" when it comes to elimination. Seriously! Warlock revive? BULLSHIT. DEAD SHOULD BE DEAD. Gunslinger? BULLSHIT. Unfair range, or helmet that gives 4th shot. ETC.

Does that make sense? Do you see what I'm getting at??

We already have Iron Banner, and this is just IB with Skirmish!

My proposal would be just to stop the DoT if the wielder dies - would let a skilled player save themself while still keeping most of it's current usefulness (and still melting people who try to run instead of fight).

And that might be a better solution to Thorn, overall, but on the other side of that coin, then it defeats the mythos of that gun, which frankly, is one of the most unique things that Destiny has going for it, that Destiny does right.

HOPEFULLY, that all made sense. I feel like I understand your side,FWIW.

I get you now. Partly misunderstanding and partly miscommunication. We cool.

The one thing I will say is I should have worded the fairness part better. All Exotics are unfair in Destiny, but they're all fairly unfair. By which I mean none of them are totally superior to their alternatives. With the exception of Gjallarhorn, none of the Exotics are higher DPS, they just have strange, unique twists.

Thorn is different in that it's twist is " Does more damage". Which makes it unfairly unfair (in my eyes).

Why you do this? You play this game, where you "agree" with me on something, and then attempt to belittle me. On point:

It's not black and white like you're trying to make it. I can both agree with you and disagree with you, and you can do the same with me. You're right on some stuff, and I'd say dead wrong on others.

And as for belittlement, what do you describe calling people in this thread crazy, dismissing plenty of what they say or think, and telling them that it's all in their heads?

Dude, you and I don't see eye to eye on anything, and I was "dead wrong" about the boltshot, eh?

Not in a million years.

343 did what 343 likes to do, which is try to please everyone, thus pleasing no one. So when the most vocal of complainers piss and moan that the BS needed to change, they did it to appease what player base they have left. For all I try to defend them with, they have a -terrible- habit of not doing what they say, and not saying what they mean. "14 day buy and play" comes to mind.

While we both know that in my mind 343 can do no right, and while I agree that they try to please everyone and manage to please no one, their weapon tuning, even the parts of it I disagree with and still think are wrong, was done in part because H4 had major weapon balancing problems in general. This included the DMR, which was the most overpowered weapon of them all. It got fixed, and in a good way! The Boltshot is included in the balance issues that were fixed, though I still feel that it wasn't enough.

It wasn't because the gun was broken, you doofus, if was to keep their crumbling population for crumbling further.

Oh. So what was Bungie's reasoning for buffing Hand Cannons while nerfing plenty of stuff with Auto Rifles? Let's see, there was an outcry, right? Because, truth be told objectively, Auto Rifles were unbalanced, right? And Pulse Rifles, Scout Rifles, and Hand Cannons all got buffed up, right?

And if more weapon tuning or buffs or nerfs come down the line later, and assuming they happen to target Thorn, The Last Word, Hawkmoon, and some other guns that quite clearly have a crazy edge, there's no way that would be because Bungie looked at the stats and made a balancing decision, right? It's all in our heads, we're all crazy, and the gametypes themselves are off, not the weapons.

"We heard your cries and agree, the boltshot is OP and needs to be tweaked!" really meant "Please don't stop playing our game! We'll do whatever you want! Just play!"

You're probably right on this one as far as motivation goes, but there's still a nifty fact in there: H4 weapons had balancing issues and, gasp, 343 actually fixed some while failing with others! Just like Bungie's weapon balancing fixes have, as I said originally up above, been a general problem. I feel like Bungie's working on finding that nice balance. They've already said that these weapon tweaks aren't the last ones. They're gathering data. We'll see what happens, right?

Thorn.

In a previous post you mention you haven't even used Thorn yourself... So how, exactly, is that supposed to make your points, uh...valid?

Oh, you get killed with it a lot? So that must make you qualified enough to say it needs to be nerfed. Riiiiiiiight.

Tell ya what, do the Thorn bounty, level the gun, and take it for a spin in Crucible.

RNG has to provide me with the Thorn bounty first. I'm sorry that it hasn't happened yet. I don't have a Mythoclast either. Sad times, right? Why so black and white again? Suddenly I have to have used Thorn to be able to speak about its ability? After saying that I actually like the gun, don't care if it doesn't get nerfed, but am willing to acknowledge that, yes, it is overpowered? You gotta read dude.

If you go on an undisputed, multiple game spanning, run of absolute destruction with it, I'll hear you out.

I do that with my Last Word just fine. And yes, it's overpowered. And no, I don't want it changed, I love the gun, and I love having it used against me and beating me.

But until you actually use the thing, I will hear none of your arguments, because they lack KEY input.

Illogical. I'm actually pretty damn good at Crucible and even Trials. I beat Thorn consistently and get beat by it. Not having used it doesn't preclude me from fully understanding how it works, how it kills me, or how it kills my teammates. It's called being good at the game, and shooters in general. But sure, go all black and white with it. Again, invalidate all other opinions. Peeps be crazy, it's all in dat head, and without actually using the thing (even if it's used against you), your thoughts don't exist lalalala. I guess the original poster, who said they haven't used Thorn since before the buff, also gets no say. Sad day. :(

I suggest that this is where you and I part ways, conversationally.

Historically, we see eye to eye on nothing.

We know how to push each others buttons.

Neither of us is going to sway the other.

Time to move along.

Oh, word. I'm down with that. Just remember, not everything is super black and white, one doesn't need to use a weapon to understand it or recognize how unbalanced it is (and they can do so while loving the weapon and hoping it doesn't change!), and crying about belittlement while actively calling many peoples crazy and telling them that stuff is in their heads is super funny and also super dismissive. But yes, moving along time!

End note: If Bungie nerfs Thorn or tweaks it or balances Hand Cannons in general based on statistically backed up feedback, I hope you remember this conversation. Additionally, if none of what I just said happens, I'll remember this conversation and think to myself, "Well damn, Revenant seems to have been right!"

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