I logged on this morning and wrote a huge long rant about what a bad taste I have in my mouth from the Level 35 PoE challenge and this whole House of Wolves "expansion" . I wrote about how little new content was actually included compared to any other game that uses that term, how the lone piece of PvE end game content is poorly designed and poorly implemented. How most of the new gear is lackluster, and I don't have room for the good stuff because our vault space is still too limited. I wrote about how House of Wolves does not feel like the work of a huge AAA studio, but rather the efforts of a small and hard working team inside Bungie while the rest of the studio is working on other stuff.

I wrote all this stuff, and then deleted it. Instead, I'm going to say this:

We need level 34 Raids, and we need more vault space.

I know there are lots of people who disagree with me on this, but in my opinion Prison of Elders just doesn't cut it. The arenas are poorly designed, the encounters are dull, and the boss fights flip between ridiculously punishing and easily exploitable. IMO, PoE belongs in Destiny, but not as "end game" content. It should be right there along side the strike playlists as a fun little diversion. Maybe level 28, 30 and 32. And even then, it needs major improvements before it stands up to other activities in Destiny, or to Arena modes in other games.

I think we should have gotten more with House of Wolves, but there's no point in lamenting that fact. That's why I bring up level 34 versions of the 2 existing raids. We need a top level PvE activity other than PoE, and we need it yesterday. I don't see any chance of getting new content before The Taken King, but if Bungie could at least give us higher-difficulty versions of Crota's End and VoG, we would have a couple worthwhile activities to hold us over.

The vault space issue is tricky. I know it's not a problem for the majority of Destiny players, therefore it is difficult for Bungie to prioritize. Personally speaking, new gear is a big part of Destiny's replay value. Not just having it, but actually using it. I enjoy swapping gear as I replay missions over and over... helps keep things fresh. But at this point, I'm full. I can squeeze in a couple more heavy weapons, and that's it. With the ability to acquire new gear gone, Destiny becomes a bit less appealing.

So that's my thought of the day. Level 34 raids and more vault space pleeaaaze :)

I agree with everything you've stated here.

Personally, I still don't plan on paying for any more Destiny stuffs.

The Dark Below PvE stuff should have been free.

The House of wolves PvE stuff should have been $5.

PvP DLC should have been seperate.

I guess I'm a bit confused. What does bumping the level of the Raids actually achieve? As long as our Guardians keep pace won't the existing raids essentially remain the same, just with a bigger number by the enemies' health bars being matched by our own increased maximum level?

Other than that though, yes, Destiny needs much more, better content. A single intro cutscene telling us that yes, the universe might actually acknowledge that we did in fact defeat the heart of the Black Garden and yep, we killed Corta, is nicer than what we got before but is still so insignificant in a lot of ways. :(

I guess I'm a bit confused. What does bumping the level of the Raids actually achieve? As long as our Guardians keep pace won't the existing raids essentially remain the same, just with a bigger number by the enemies' health bars being matched by our own increased maximum level?

Even the subtle changes that come with a level increase would be welcome- the issue is that at this point, 365 Weapons just wreck level 30 enemies, and while that can be satisfying, it makes the whole fight a bit less tense.

There's been a second set of fully modeled and "rendered" raid gear sitting in the game's database since launch, which we haven't been able to obtain. Adding that and Etheric light as drops would be a great way to keep old content fresh.

I absolutely love PoE and find all the bosses fun to fight (with the exception of Qodron the first week which they fixed). Skolas is definitely the most fun with void burn, but even with the easy mode Arc (shotguns) and Solar (Gjallahorns) the rest of the experience is a lot of fun.

When it comes to gear I have replaced several of my weapons with HoW gear, not to mention the Hunter exotics are the best exotics they've gotten since Symbiote.

I guess what I'm getting down to is: you get easy etheric light from ToO every week apparently, if you aren't enjoying PoE take the advice that's been going around since day one: don't play it! And if you're playing it just for the Elder Cipher, I don't see why you post every reset with basically the same post.

I've had to make the decision 3 times now in destiny to not be a collector. Every time I make this decision I dismantle a bunch of stuff and I've rarely regretted it. (My swordbreaker from my first crota run I think is the only long term regret I've had -- I rage sharded it and 5-6 other shotguns when that's all I was getting for rewards for a few weeks) This past weekend I sharded a fully levelled dragon's breath. I've never really used it, can't see that I ever will. I've had 4 different SGA's. I'm currently at one, and I've already wondered why I upgraded it to 365 -- I never use it, and when I do I regret it. it sits in my warlock's inventory wishing it were gjallarhorn. (I wish they had added voice-over to that, would have been super fun!)

I have a couple pulse rifles, scout rifles, shotguns that are "great rolls" that sit in my vault the vast majority of the time. Some are unused, unleveled, some are looking really pretty but not really used.

Legendary gear drops more readily with this expansion. We're getting more keys for PoE. We get more legendary engrams. Strikes have doubled your chances of rewards, and with it, the chance for legendaries. Weeklies are runnable relatively solo with matchmaking, they give out legendaries maybe 1/4 the time. Daily heroics seem to be about 10% chance to drop a legendary.

We have purples, particularly weapons, coming out our ears.

I've taken a good look at myself and decided that vault space, too much gear, isn't my problem. My expectations are that I should have access to everything at any time in this game. On the one hand, I paid for it all, why can't I have it all? On the other, some content isn't made for me. I won't likely ever be an auto-rifle guy; I just don't like the playstyle. So why is it that I have 5 or so vault slots dedicated to auto-rifles? That's the illusion talking; I maybe need 2-3 to keep my future options open. That up for anything with a really good random roll won't ever do me any good -- I should shard it, it's wasting valuable space.

I am the problem. I expect access to everything at any time. The game isn't designed for this -- in fact I think it can be more meaningful because of this.

I am happier now that the expansion has dropped and my hunter basically runs the nightfall and that's it every week. I'm not a hunter. I gave it a try, it's fun now and then. I'm glad I'm mostly a warlock. The game is funner now that I don't feel obligated (for self-imposed reasons) to keep my hunter at the cutting edge. Same goes for ships, weapons shaders, rep, etc.

Let it go. Shard those items that just sit there 98% of the time. You won't miss them.

We need level 34 Raids, and we need more vault space.

Yes, please! Although if I'm completely honest with myself, if had more vault space I'd just fill it up with more weapons which I won't use (like the weapons my vault is filled with now). I need less armor space & more weapons & items space. More Items is the most needed for me as I have weapons I can trash, I just need to get around to making the decision to actually do it.

I know there are lots of people who disagree with me on this, but in my opinion Prison of Elders just doesn't cut it. The arenas are poorly designed, the encounters are dull, and the boss fights flip between ridiculously punishing and easily exploitable. IMO, PoE belongs in Destiny, but not as "end game" content. It should be right there along side the strike playlists as a fun little diversion. Maybe level 28, 30 and 32. And even then, it needs major improvements before it stands up to other activities in Destiny, or to Arena modes in other games.

I'm going to disagree a little here. The arenas could definitely be designed better, but I don't think they're terrible. I love playing duckhunt in the hive arena (when the thrall & acolytes jump over that ridge on the left, it's just fun popping them in the head while they're airborn).

My biggest complaint with it is that you get overwhelmed by adds and there aren't many good places to fortify (and when you do find one there's little reason to leave & when you do have to you need to swim through a flood of enemies that you haven't had the chance to kill yet while hoping you can make it to the other side of the arena for some cover. There's no good way to move between fortified areas.

So, yeah the encounters don't live up to raid level encounters, they rank somewhere between a strike boss & a raid boss (for me). They have more mechanics and dimension than a strike boss, but not perfected and polished like a raid boss encounter. I think this is due to the fact that they all happen in the same arenas. Despite this the encounters are still fun (for me). Maybe that's because I haven't run PoE very much, I dunno.

As a side-note, I would love love love to have a boss that does something other than the death-stomp when you get close. Swing at me & send me flying like a Hunter from Halo, or teleport me elsewhere. Please, anything other than stomping my face.

I think we should have gotten more with House of Wolves, but there's no point in lamenting that fact. That's why I bring up level 34 versions of the 2 existing raids. We need a top level PvE activity other than PoE, and we need it yesterday. I don't see any chance of getting new content before The Taken King, but if Bungie could at least give us higher-difficulty versions of Crota's End and VoG, we would have a couple worthwhile activities to hold us over.

I feel I pretty much got my $15 worth, but I'm not sure HoW will have the staying power to keep me until this fall. Good thing I have a busy Summer schedule! Having a raid would have been amazing & would have given it the staying power it needs. Getting a ranked up VoG would have been a decent stop-gap solution for me (but would have likely drawn the ire of many).

Anyway, for a large part my feelings are in a similar direction, but with a much reduced magnitude.

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I agree with combating the "collectors" mentality as much as possible. But as I said, I actually use everything I have. It's a big part of where Destiny's replay value comes from, for me.

I do.

I guess what I'm getting down to is: you get easy etheric light from ToO every week apparently, if you aren't enjoying PoE take the advice that's been going around since day one: don't play it!

First of all: I play it because that's the only top-level activity for PvE players to do. I play ToO not for etheric light (although it's certainly a nice bonus), but because I enjoy it. I rarely play PoE. I did level 35 last night because I'd never done it before and I wanted to see the content.

I don't see why you post every reset with basically the same post.

Could you please point out where I've ever done that? I posted a few days after HoW launched about my initial PoE impressions. I did another post a week later discussing my problems with how the loot cycle is handled in House of Wolves, and how PoE fits in to that. I don't think I've ever just come back to repost the same complaints over and over.

I have 3 level 34 characters, a Titan, a Warlock and a Hunter. I have all the non-HoW exotics, multiples in fact. I have most raid weapons and gear, and all the ones I really want. I'm usually on for 10 hours a week.

My vault is full of weapons. I've started sharding "extras" just so I could try out new stuff. Do I really need 3 No land beyond? I hardly ever use it. I've got 10 guns in my mail just waiting for vault space to open up.

My brother plays a couple of hours a month. He has a Last Word and an Ice Breaker as his only exotics. He's never raided, but I've run him through the first levels of Crota a few times for gear. I took him on his first nightfall last week, even though he's had the game since release. He just could never get geared up before the next expansion would move the goal posts.

For him this is a great release. He'd love to try some Osirus, but gear holds him back. PVP though is his bread and butter and he has a good time. I've started coaxing him through the PoE since we can do it in an hour and only need to find one other person. He doesn't worry about grinding gear now that he can reroll it to his tastes, and doesn't need shards to level it.

Basically, for non-hardcore players this is an excellent release. There are several paths to end game gear, via IB, nightfalls, Osirus, or Poe. IB can be solo'ed. The rest only require 3 people. Most only require a couple of hours total per week.

I'd love more stuff and more causal 6 man activities, but I'll take this as a good step in bridging the casual and hard core players.

I agree with everything you've stated here.

Personally, I still don't plan on paying for any more Destiny stuffs.

Even Taken king? Rumored there's a new planet, as well as 18+ story missions and a raid. You could argue that the two DLC packs available currently should have been rolled in together into a bigger pack, but 'Comet' sounds decent.

I think it's good, not great.

PoE is bungie's way of addressing raid-style mechanics to a 3 person fireteam, bringing more raid style content to their larger audience. This is their first attempt, and it is both hit and miss. That really didn't exist in the past. It's the equivalent to when WoW went from 40 man raids down to 20 and 10 man raids. Suddenly each raid member had to be a little more skilled, things had to go a little more smoothly, there was a little less wiggle room. I expect future content such as this to be in different, bigger, areas. I think the arena stuff was good use of limited map space, but ultimately an experiment for 3 man fireteams with more difficult mechanics than what you see in the strikes or in the story mode. In that respect it's a success.

It falls down though in that, as has been discussed, it's less approachable. I think Bungie would have been better off marketing it as a mini-raid rather than something completely new. We have spent, and thought little about, spending hours in a raid figuring out mechanics with no loot to show for it. Skolas is the new crota hard. It's frustrating, but the same paradigm. The lack of a checkpoint is probably a time-gate, to prevent people blowing through it way too fast via LFG tools. It adds to the grindy nature of the process though -- it's a 40-60 minute run to get to him, then you practice.

It fragments raid groups as well. I don't run as much with a number of people that I used to see a few times a week. On the flipside, I've gotten to run with some other guys I hadn't run with as much in the past, but enjoy spending time with. So a mixed bag there I guess. There's definitely less team cohesion as well.

I don't like that PoE has 4 separate difficulties. I think 3 would be enough. I think Bungie has been trying really hard to onboard new players through both expansions, and this one is showing through a little -- 28 is one of the gated levels to get to higher content. They're still maintaining a gear upgrade path for a new character all the way to 34, and trying to have interesting things to do along the way.

IMO There should be a lvl 32 matchmade PoE that randomly drops, once a week, an etheric light, a weapon core, or an armor core. Only available to 34's, maybe via an unlock quest.

The lvl 28 PoE is, probably intentionally, like a dragon strike -- it goes pretty fast, but at 25ish minutes it's too long for the (seemingly limited) reward pool at the end. I'm better off running 2 dragons strikes for weapon parts and chances at ships, along with other random junk once I've gotten some of the queen's weapons.

So yeah. All that said, the PoE wasn't for us raiders. It was raiding for the guys who could get a couple buddies together here and there rather than coordinate a 6 person team. I like it, and as a hobbyist game dev, I admire what they've done. But it wasn't quite what I was looking for for PvE "endgame" content. I'm more disappointed than angry, and I know I just have to wait a few months to see what's around the next corner. It'll go pretty fast. Like any MMO, it's as much about the people, the journey, than the end. When that gjallarhorn or hawkmoon finally drop, they are so much more fun because of the stories they've created. It's about that, or should be, as much as about the loot.

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Legendary gear drops more readily with this expansion. We're getting more keys for PoE. We get more legendary engrams. Strikes have doubled your chances of rewards, and with it, the chance for legendaries. Weeklies are runnable relatively solo with matchmaking, they give out legendaries maybe 1/4 the time. Daily heroics seem to be about 10% chance to drop a legendary.

We have purples, particularly weapons, coming out our ears.

I'm a little disappointed in the increased drop rate. Getting a legendary doesn't really feel special anymore. Getting your Nth exotic isn't really exciting either. I almost made a post about this yesterday.

What if......

Instead of just Exotic weapons, we could get an Exotic perk that could be used on any Legendary weapon to create a custom Exotic. The new weapon once forged at the gunsmith could then turn some new color (RED is the best choice obviously) and be labeled as a Mythic. How unique would it be to get the speed boost of Mida on any shotgun of your choice. The wolfpack rounds on your Radeghast Fury so not every PoE would be Ghallafest. Health regen on kills with TDYK so you can say, "F you Thorn!" What about any fusion rifle of your choice that could fire like Mythoclast? The perks already exist and Bungie has shown they can change up the upgrade trees to accept to perk bubbles.

And before we begin to wonder if this is gonna make something OP (like Venom rounds on an Auto rifle :) MAKE THIS SHIT RARE!! Not like rare blue, like Cody getting a Hawkmoon rare! So when you get a Mythic perk, you crap your pants in excitement.

Vault Space is not an issue for me anymore.

Every time I get a Queen's Legendary, it is instantly moted. The biggest problem that makes new legendary gear worthless is the changed perks. Before, enhancements were straight up enhancements. Now, each carries a tradeoff. Want to increase range? You've got to take a hit to stability. Want more stability? You get a smaller magazine.

However, since now you can ascend old gear, all the great stuff you had previously easily trumps anything and everything new. The only exception so far has been Hopscotch Pilgrim, Ill Will, and BTRD.

This is the biggest problem with new gear, yet a blessing for those of us with no vault space. It's simply impossible to top the old stuff, especially the old elementals primaries. Yet if the new gear sucks, and PoE is lame, why would people be motivated to do it? Literally the only reason I am going to play PoE is for the Cipher Exotics. One I get them, I'm never touching it again, except maybe the 28 version to burn my keys for a shot at Hawkmoon.

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I'm a little disappointed in the increased drop rate. Getting a legendary doesn't really feel special anymore. Getting your Nth exotic isn't really exciting either. I almost made a post about this yesterday.

Guess what? This is the nature of what Bungie has set out to do with tons of DLC and mini expansions. I've written about the numerous creative problems with this type of content release, and that's one more straw. The stream of rewards through an investment system will run out sooner or later. Then you're left with nothing if your base game isn't fun. That's PoE. The solution is bigger base game with fewer weapons. No RNG loot, but loot acquired through feats of skill or exploration. Bungie should not be afraid to simply let their game end, and players put it down. I feel bad it took people years and 100s of millions of dollars to illustrate what I've been saying since 2010.

This game is never, EVER going to give you substantial expansion. You will get enough for your next hit, and that is all :P Hit the new ceiling too fast and you simply crash harder.

I'm having a really hard time believing that you are constantly switching though armors and weapons, except for when you change characters.

I'm sure you do SOME switching, but even when I decide to fire up my hunter on occasion, I still use the same weapon set for the most part. More power to you if you are changing it up often, but color me skeptical.

I TRY my new stuff out all the time. I'll level it enough to get it's perks unlocked, take it for a spin, and if it doesn't 'wow' me, it's trashed.

Done.

You really can't have your cake and eat it too, with Destiny.

The whole reason we can now re-roll weapons is so that you have better odds of getting something you WANT and thus will keep. I don't need 25 different scout rifles anymore. You'd be much better off keeping the stuff you really like. Like REALLY like.

I try to keep one element type of each weapon that I like, Scouts, Shottys, HMGs and rockets. Oh, and the occasional elemental primary.

All the rest I don't like enough to use. The rest of my slots are occupied by exotics, which truly FEEL exotic to me. Because I'm not an AR player for instance, I get more enjoyment out of my Hard Light when I do use it. Same with Hawkmoon.

And with armor, similar situation. I only keep the things that favor my skill set of choice. I don't need 5 of the same boots, but one holds more shotgun ammo, one more fusion ammo, one more handcannon etc. As I get raid armor, I shard it once I get a better (for me) piece. First VOG chest is strength heavy, then I get a new one that is Intellect, which I prefer? Welp, no reason to hold onto that first one anymore!

To each their own, but I think you are your own problem with Destiny in this case.

Also, I try to cut Bungie a little slack with this first game. They're learning as they go. "The Endgame" is a misnomer, because Destiny has no end.

I've been stepping it down lately. The first stage is to admit you have a problem.

So you are saying, I could get a Lord High Fixer with all the old possible perk rolls, by playing a Tiger strike that awards me a primary legendary engram?

So you are saying, I could get a Lord High Fixer with all the old possible perk rolls, by playing a Tiger strike that awards me a primary legendary engram?

I believe they removed old loot tables from all non-patrol activities. And you couldn't reroll it if you did get one. But I have gotten an old Lord High Fixer, specifically, from a legendary engram I got opening a random chest on patrol, post TDB.

So you are saying, I could get a Lord High Fixer with all the old possible perk rolls, by playing a Tiger strike that awards me a primary legendary engram?

I believe they removed old loot tables from all non-patrol activities. And you couldn't reroll it if you did get one. But I have gotten an old Lord High Fixer, specifically, from a legendary engram I got opening a random chest on patrol, post TDB.

Like I am going to go around opening chests all day. They might as well simply not drop at all.

What if......

[snip] Health regen on kills with TDYK so you can say, "F you Thorn!"

I love Thorn, but I also love love love TDYK. Can we haz this gun please?

And before we begin to wonder if this is gonna make something OP (like Venom rounds on an Auto rifle :) MAKE THIS SHIT RARE!! Not like rare blue, like Cody getting a Hawkmoon rare! So when you get a Mythic perk, you crap your pants in excitement.

Lol, "Cody Hawkmoon Rare". That's great. :) Yesterday I sharded one of my duplicate Hawkmoons so it could be reincarnated as a drop for Cody, didn't happen tho'. Maybe it needs to spend a little time in gun-paradise before being resurrected as a Cody drop.

The real problem with the new content has to do with mastery.

It's very satisfying to take a problem or task, figure it out, get better at it, and end up having mastered it. Starting from something seemingly impossible, and ending up accomplished is a great feeling. Previous challenges had a lot of that. I don't think the major barrier to the Vault of Glass was ever you gear or level. Provided you were at level, you could do the raid if you prepared and knew your shit. The hard part was the strategy, and the fun part was coming up with something that would allow you to win. You could get better at the Vault without ever gaining a level or getting a new weapon.

Part of why I think people started to complain about the Crota hard mode raid is that having a level disadvantage is something that can't be overcome through pure mastery. No matter how much you practice, or strategize, that penalty to damage dealt and increase to damage received never goes away. You pretty much needed to get good gear to do it on hard. Mastery is not what you have, it's what you know.

Prison of Elders I feel has no room for mastery. Especially with the mine rounds, there is no structure or order to the fights; it's all just random. It comes down to running at the mines, and hoping you don't get shot, since they appear so quickly you can't possibly take out all the enemies before you have to start with them. Plus, their locations are not in a set order. How often do you find yourself simply running around, be it to a mine, or to escape the enemy, and just hope you don't get shot? That happens a lot in PoE. Not so much in a raid.

So you have these chaotic fights PLUS a level disadvantage, and I simply don't feel like I can ever truly improve at this without either leveling up, or getting better gear. There is a sense of accomplishment in finishing PoE 35, but not a sense that you feel that you could improve your skills and do it better the next time.

I'm a little disappointed in the increased drop rate. Getting a legendary doesn't really feel special anymore. Getting your Nth exotic isn't really exciting either. I almost made a post about this yesterday.

"Then you're left with nothing if your base game isn't fun."

Good thing the base game is a ton of fun! It's the simple basic structure of the game that was done so well. The shooting, the art/environments. These are standard to all shooters and Destiny does them above and beyond almost any other.

"Bungie should not be afraid to simply let their game end, and players put it down."

I don't think a traditional 20-40 hr, standard single playthrough campaign then put down type design would have worked at all for Destiny. They have a 10 year plan. Much like people don't use the term WoW 2, I don't think there will be a true Destiny 2. I think this game will simply continue to evolve and expand with things we love, things we don't yet know we'll love, and maybe some things we'll hate because they don't fit our style. There are so many people playing destiny in there own unique way, and this is required because you need people to keep this game alive for 10 years. So if a loot is one way of doing that, I think that is great. I really feel there is at least something for everyone at this point. Are there still some weak points, sure. Story is probably the most lackluster thing surprisingly. But its getting better each patch and expansion.

I don't think a traditional 20-40 hr, standard single playthrough campaign then put down type design would have worked at all for Destiny. They have a 10 year plan. Much like people don't use the term WoW 2, I don't think there will be a true Destiny 2. I think this game will simply continue to evolve and expand with things we love, things we don't yet know we'll love, and maybe some things we'll hate because they don't fit our style. There are so many people playing destiny in there own unique way, and this is required because you need people to keep this game alive for 10 years.

No game should last ten years, that's my point. They shouldn't have a ten year plan. All games that do this are failures creatively, simply because it is humanly impossible to design enough interesting, challenging content to keep a player busy for ten years. Plain and simple. That's why all these games have repetitive elements. A game you play for years is a terrible goal, as has been shown. Nice idea, but impossible practically unless you can pay talented people in Bangladesh pennies on the dollar to make stuff for your game.

Lol, "Cody Hawkmoon Rare". That's great. :) Yesterday I sharded one of my duplicate Hawkmoons so it could be reincarnated as a drop for Cody, didn't happen tho'. Maybe it needs to spend a little time in gun-paradise before being resurrected as a Cody drop.

I know enough from literature that mad quests for items of value or power can ruin men. I'm starting to let it go…

I don't think a traditional 20-40 hr, standard single playthrough campaign then put down type design would have worked at all for Destiny. They have a 10 year plan. Much like people don't use the term WoW 2, I don't think there will be a true Destiny 2. I think this game will simply continue to evolve and expand with things we love, things we don't yet know we'll love, and maybe some things we'll hate because they don't fit our style. There are so many people playing destiny in there own unique way, and this is required because you need people to keep this game alive for 10 years.

No game should last ten years, that's my point. They shouldn't have a ten year plan. All games that do this are failures creatively, simply because it is humanly impossible to design enough content to keep a player busy for ten years. Plain and simple. That's why all these games have repetitive elements. A game you play for years is a terrible goal, as has been show. Nice idea, but impossibly practically unless you can pay talented people in Bangladesh pennies on the dollar to make stuff for your game.

That's also your opinion. I have no qualms about a 10 year game plan. Most of my favorite game were not one off's but series. Rainbow Six, CoD, Splinter Cell, Battlefield, and of course Halo. I'd say Halo's first 10 years, all the Bungie years were great. And everyone who played them will argue which one was the best. But I think we can all admit that from Halo CE to Reach, they were all good quality games which brought a ton of fun and good times to those that played them. I understand that Halo wasn't conceptualized as a 10 year game, but it still created enough content with far fewer employees to fill that time span. I can easily see the 500 at Bungie in teams creating packs of content over the same time frame with the same quality.

That's also your opinion. I have no qualms about a 10 year game plan. Most of my favorite game were not one off's but series. Rainbow Six, CoD, Splinter Cell, Battlefield, and of course Halo. I'd say Halo's first 10 years, all the Bungie years were great.

Those are separate games in a series. That is dramatically different than one game continually updated with DLC. Five games in ten years is fine. One game with lots of content updates in ten years is not.

That's also your opinion. I have no qualms about a 10 year game plan. Most of my favorite game were not one off's but series. Rainbow Six, CoD, Splinter Cell, Battlefield, and of course Halo. I'd say Halo's first 10 years, all the Bungie years were great.

Those are separate games in a series. That is dramatically different than one game continually updated with DLC. Five games in ten years is fine. One game with lots of content updates in ten years is not.

Whatev's. So what did you think about my idea?

I don't see why you post every reset with basically the same post.

Could you please point out where I've ever done that? I posted a few days after HoW launched about my initial PoE impressions. I did another post a week later discussing my problems with how the loot cycle is handled in House of Wolves, and how PoE fits in to that. I don't think I've ever just come back to repost the same complaints over and over.

I did not mean this to be insulting, don't worry about it. In Iron Banner I heard a lot of complaining from people who don't like Crucible, and all of it was beginning to grate on me. I want to just yell to the whole Destiny community: "Stop playing if you're not having fun!"

The real problem with the new content has to do with mastery.

It's very satisfying to take a problem or task, figure it out, get better at it, and end up having mastered it. Starting from something seemingly impossible, and ending up accomplished is a great feeling. Previous challenges had a lot of that. I don't think the major barrier to the Vault of Glass was ever you gear or level. Provided you were at level, you could do the raid if you prepared and knew your shit. The hard part was the strategy, and the fun part was coming up with something that would allow you to win. You could get better at the Vault without ever gaining a level or getting a new weapon.

Part of why I think people started to complain about the Crota hard mode raid is that having a level disadvantage is something that can't be overcome through pure mastery. No matter how much you practice, or strategize, that penalty to damage dealt and increase to damage received never goes away. You pretty much needed to get good gear to do it on hard. Mastery is not what you have, it's what you know.

Prison of Elders I feel has no room for mastery. Especially with the mine rounds, there is no structure or order to the fights; it's all just random. It comes down to running at the mines, and hoping you don't get shot, since they appear so quickly you can't possibly take out all the enemies before you have to start with them. Plus, their locations are not in a set order. How often do you find yourself simply running around, be it to a mine, or to escape the enemy, and just hope you don't get shot? That happens a lot in PoE. Not so much in a raid.

So you have these chaotic fights PLUS a level disadvantage, and I simply don't feel like I can ever truly improve at this without either leveling up, or getting better gear. There is a sense of accomplishment in finishing PoE 35, but not a sense that you feel that you could improve your skills and do it better the next time.

I can feel my self agreeing with certain elements of this post. ._. I... I...
Oh geez. >_<

...

I can't even words.

Edit: I found words!

Prison of Elders has elements of a raid in it, but it plays like a strike. It is heavily based on an very obvious formula. The same can be said about raids as they currently exist, with the difference being that raids seem to give more room for experimentation.

I think that's the collective issue observed - the ability to experiment in a PvE style
event. No.. I didn't take this idea from that essay I'm writing. Probably. >_>

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You know, I think this is awesome. Maybe once you finally let go it will drop. ;)

There are a couple exceptions here, notably original legendaries, but for the most part the "good stuff" is still around, and can now be ascended.

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First of all, great post across the board :)

So yeah. All that said, the PoE wasn't for us raiders. It was raiding for the guys who could get a couple buddies together here and there rather than coordinate a 6 person team. I like it, and as a hobbyist game dev, I admire what they've done. But it wasn't quite what I was looking for for PvE "endgame" content.

This is the one part where I think I feel differently than you. I'm totally down with the idea of a 3-player arena mode as end game content. I just don't think Bungie did a particularly good job designing Prison of Elders. Saying "it's not for us" doesn't work for me, because I feel like it's kinda giving them a pass on something that I would love to see them improve in the future.

I bring up Mass Effect 3 because of its multiplayer component. Have you tried it?

4 player cooperative arena/survival missions. 10 waves, objectives dispersed throughout some of the waves (hold the capture point, escort the data drone, eliminate the target enemy, etc), with a "reach and defend the extraction zone" phase at the end. You unlock different characters, each with their own skill tree and power progression. You earn random weapon and equipment drops, upgrade your stuff, etc.

Sounds familiar, right? ;p

Except it's AWESOME. I sunk hundreds of hours into ME3 multiplayer. So again, I'm totally on board with PoE in concept. I just wish it was closer to my favorite arena modes in execution :)

I want to just yell to the whole Destiny community: "Stop playing if you're not having fun!"

Really no way to argue with that :)

All the POE stuff I've done, with the exception of qodron, has been figured out as we've done it. And we did it with strategy. We learned the mines for arc hive urrox. We learned the jump pattern. We learned the technique for dismantling mines in the fallen map, spreading ourselves out. We learned and mastered Gulrot. The techniques are simple, but they are there.

It's possible you're so good you don't need strategy, like when us normals run the 28 version, and so you miss it, but for 3 of us who aren't good, we develop strategies and master the encounter to beat it, wiping along the way, saying "all right. Next time we do this, and so on."

I'm having a really hard time believing that you are constantly switching though armors and weapons, except for when you change characters.

I actually do make a point of using almost all my gear on a regular basis. As I've said before, that's how I get a lot of replay value out of Destiny: I try replaying all the content with different gear, different playstyles, on a regular basis.

I certainly do have my go-to gear that I use when it's time to get down to business, but I mix it up as much as I can.

Part of what I cut from my OP (and I'm now wishing I hadn't) is that I think Destiny overall is in fantastic shape right now. For new players coming in, or for players who don't log the insane hours some of us do, Destiny today is fantastic.

A lot of my suggestions and complaints are coming from the view of someone who has been along for the entire ride, and needs that ultra compelling content at the very top level.

... then Comet is the first expansion that I feel will actually earn the label of "expansion". I think TDB and HoW both have some great content, but they do feel quite thin given the price and time between releases.

First of all, great post across the board :)

Thanks! FWIW I don't see your post as being particularly negative. It's a good discussion to have, and I share some of your concerns from the player perspective.

So yeah. All that said, the PoE wasn't for us raiders. It was raiding for the guys who could get a couple buddies together here and there rather than coordinate a 6 person team. I like it, and as a hobbyist game dev, I admire what they've done. But it wasn't quite what I was looking for for PvE "endgame" content.

This is the one part where I think I feel differently than you. I'm totally down with the idea of a 3-player arena mode as end game content. I just don't think Bungie did a particularly good job designing Prison of Elders. Saying "it's not for us" doesn't work for me, because I feel like it's kinda giving them a pass on something that I would love to see them improve in the future.

Don't get me wrong here... I think I'm closer to your view than you realize, I guess I'm just putting a positive spin on things. As I mentioned above, I think this is Bungie exploring new territory. I think they got some things very right (ToO for example, is mostly great!) and some things... not wrong, but not what people really wanted. Less fun than expected is the best way I can sum up that. I am giving Bungie a pass of sorts, because of their history with destiny. They've proven they listen to the community and their goal isn't just making a complex slot machine -- it's about the experience too. I'm trusting this is their first foray into this area and that they're learning from it. I expect PoE v2 will be much, much better, and for the pendulum to swing more in the raider's favor, with more general player involvement like this included, in the next big update.

I bring up Mass Effect 3 because of its multiplayer component. Have you tried it?

4 player cooperative arena/survival missions. 10 waves, objectives dispersed throughout some of the waves (hold the capture point, escort the data drone, eliminate the target enemy, etc), with a "reach and defend the extraction zone" phase at the end. You unlock different characters, each with their own skill tree and power progression. You earn random weapon and equipment drops, upgrade your stuff, etc.

Sounds familiar, right? ;p

Except it's AWESOME. I sunk hundreds of hours into ME3 multiplayer. So again, I'm totally on board with PoE in concept. I just wish it was closer to my favorite arena modes in execution :)

I've not played ME3. I want something like this too! I don't feel like PoE is about fighting the swarms of enemies. I feel like all the little guys are just distractions to make it harder -- not actually what you worry about in general. Almost an annoyance. But I'm not sure that's what the goal is/should be. They should be interesting fights in their own right. I think this can only get better with improved/customized AI and better level/event design. Again, I guess I keep coming back to PoE as a proof of concept. It's fun-ish, but could be so much more.

If ME3 style gameplay is what Bungie was aiming for, they missed the mark. They at least hit the target, but it's admittedly a pretty big target. I'll be giving them the benefit of the doubt that that wasn't the primary goal, though it's possible it's just a fail. They've done it before, they'll do it again. Commendations anyone? =)

You're right that raiding seems to be missing in the big picture. With TDB dropping and making VoG "obsolete" that was a pretty big fail. They've done it again, sort of, made the raids obsolete, but with a backdoor by allowing etheric light. I hope they get this stuff straightened out to keep a smoother ride for raiding in general.

I'll be interested to see if next year etheric light will go away for a while and make a comeback later on for upgrading all gear to year 2 levels. =)

A lot of my suggestions and complaints are coming from the view of someone who has been along for the entire ride, and needs that ultra compelling content at the very top level.

I can agree that someone who is PvE-centric didn't gain as much new content as others. Newbs and hardcore PvPers really won out this time. Hopefully they will have a great Raid for you guys in Sept. Something more complex like the VoG that needs great teamwork and superior problem solving skills.

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Prison of Elders I feel has no room for mastery. Especially with the mine rounds, there is no structure or order to the fights; it's all just random. It comes down to running at the mines, and hoping you don't get shot, since they appear so quickly you can't possibly take out all the enemies before you have to start with them. Plus, their locations are not in a set order. How often do you find yourself simply running around, be it to a mine, or to escape the enemy, and just hope you don't get shot? That happens a lot in PoE. Not so much in a raid.

Right there, that sums up most of my complaints about the PoE.

All the POE stuff I've done, with the exception of qodron, has been figured out as we've done it. And we did it with strategy. We learned the mines for arc hive urrox. We learned the jump pattern. We learned the technique for dismantling mines in the fallen map, spreading ourselves out. We learned and mastered Gulrot. The techniques are simple, but they are there.

It's possible you're so good you don't need strategy, like when us normals run the 28 version, and so you miss it, but for 3 of us who aren't good, we develop strategies and master the encounter to beat it, wiping along the way, saying "all right. Next time we do this, and so on."

I'm mostly referring to the level 35 version. I'm not sure what you said can be applied to that. I'm not sure your familiarity with level 35 or how easy or hard you find it.

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A lot of my suggestions and complaints are coming from the view of someone who has been along for the entire ride, and needs that ultra compelling content at the very top level.

I can agree that someone who is PvE-centric didn't gain as much new content as others. Newbs and hardcore PvPers really won out this time. Hopefully they will have a great Raid for you guys in Sept. Something more complex like the VoG that needs great teamwork and superior problem solving skills.

Yeah, PvE players did get a bit left out. Not the end of the world. And I'm glad PvPers got some love (they really needed it), and everything up until the end game is looking really great now.

All the POE stuff I've done, with the exception of qodron, has been figured out as we've done it. And we did it with strategy. We learned the mines for arc hive urrox. We learned the jump pattern. We learned the technique for dismantling mines in the fallen map, spreading ourselves out. We learned and mastered Gulrot. The techniques are simple, but they are there.

It's possible you're so good you don't need strategy, like when us normals run the 28 version, and so you miss it, but for 3 of us who aren't good, we develop strategies and master the encounter to beat it, wiping along the way, saying "all right. Next time we do this, and so on."

I'm mostly referring to the level 35 version. I'm not sure what you said can be applied to that. I'm not sure your familiarity with level 35 or how easy or hard you find it.

Personally, I haven't found any difference between level 28 and level 35 PoE in terms of "strategy". You can just get away with a lot more at 28, because you can take so much extra damage. But even at level 28, the "bullet hell" nature of PoE can take over to the point that you end up running laps, hoping not to get shot.

And believe me, my cooking more than makes up for my Destiny abilities. Even I won't eat my cooking lol

... then Comet is the first expansion that I feel will actually earn the label of "expansion". I think TDB and HoW both have some great content, but they do feel quite thin given the price and time between releases.

I've seen a number of posts making similar observations this week. Which I find funny, given how many people were saying HoW was ABSOLUTELY WORTH THE PRICE OF ENTRY after the first couple of days. ;)

I look at the number of hours I've already spent on HoW-specific activities, and I'm having trouble seeing how I haven't gotten my $16 worth. That's me, though.

Prison of Elders I feel has no room for mastery. Especially with the mine rounds, there is no structure or order to the fights; it's all just random. It comes down to running at the mines, and hoping you don't get shot, since they appear so quickly you can't possibly take out all the enemies before you have to start with them. Plus, their locations are not in a set order. How often do you find yourself simply running around, be it to a mine, or to escape the enemy, and just hope you don't get shot? That happens a lot in PoE. Not so much in a raid.

Right there, that sums up most of my complaints about the PoE.

When you think about it, that's also the reason people were frustrated by the Atheon teleport randomization "fix".

I still think that was a poor decision, by the way. The only reason why it's not a big deal anymore is because we're all level 30+.

You are equating hours to worth. I think most equate the quality of those hours, instead of the quantity to worth.

You are equating hours to worth. I think most equate the quality of those hours, instead of the quantity to worth.

For me, almost all of the time, they're the same thing - because when I'm not enjoying myself, I stop playing.

If you see Destiny as a grind, or you play to reach some non-"I'm playing because I like this game" goal... your mileage may vary.

Prison of Elders I feel has no room for mastery. Especially with the mine rounds, there is no structure or order to the fights; it's all just random. It comes down to running at the mines, and hoping you don't get shot, since they appear so quickly you can't possibly take out all the enemies before you have to start with them. Plus, their locations are not in a set order. How often do you find yourself simply running around, be it to a mine, or to escape the enemy, and just hope you don't get shot? That happens a lot in PoE. Not so much in a raid.

Right there, that sums up most of my complaints about the PoE.

When you think about it, that's also the reason people were frustrated by the Atheon teleport randomization "fix".

I still think that was a poor decision, by the way. The only reason why it's not a big deal anymore is because we're all level 30+.

I always thought it was a half-good decision. They should have left alone for normal difficulty.

... then Comet is the first expansion that I feel will actually earn the label of "expansion". I think TDB and HoW both have some great content, but they do feel quite thin given the price and time between releases.

I've seen a number of posts making similar observations this week. Which I find funny, given how many people were saying HoW was ABSOLUTELY WORTH THE PRICE OF ENTRY after the first couple of days. ;)

I look at the number of hours I've already spent on HoW-specific activities, and I'm having trouble seeing how I haven't gotten my $16 worth. That's me, though.

If I look at it in terms of "dollars per hour", then I'm inclined to agree. Although that is tricky with a game like Destiny, where so much of your time is spent repeating the same content over and over and over.

I suspect that some of us were looking at House of Wolves before release, seeing all the improvements that were on the way (upgrading gear, collecting materials, stuff like that) and thought "this all sounds fantastic!". And it is. But those improvements aren't part of House of Wolves. They are a title update to Destiny that launched at the same time as the expansion.

When I step back and look at House of Wolves in terms of "what content has been added to the game", it feels thin to me. An arena mode with 4 combat spaces (compared to the 10+ maps available in other arena modes, such as Gears of War, ODST, Mass Effect 3, Splinter Cell Blacklist, etc etc), a new PvP mode with some new maps (no complaints about this part, I think the PvP team nailed it), some missions that take place in already existing environments, and a decent if short strike mission.

To me, that's not a lot of content given we've been waiting almost 6 months.

As I've said in a few other posts, I think Destiny as a whole is in fantastic shape right now. A new player coming in has a ton of great content to sink their teeth in to. Where I think HoW falls flat is from the perspective of us insane uber-fans who have already squeezed every bit of life out of most of this game and are starving for more new stuff to do.

So in a way, my complaints are not even remotely fair to Bungie. I'm close to 700 hours in at this point, so my "bang for the buck" has been phenomenal (although I did buy 4 copies lol) But this is the kind of game they decided to make. They wanted to walk in to MMO waters; the genre that players expect to sink thousands of hours in to over the course of several years. When other games comes along and use the term "expansion", they deliver a chunk of content that dwarfs House of Wolves. So that's where expectations have been set.

You are equating hours to worth. I think most equate the quality of those hours, instead of the quantity to worth.

For me, almost all of the time, they're the same thing - because when I'm not enjoying myself, I stop playing.

If you see Destiny as a grind, or you play to reach some non-"I'm playing because I like this game" goal... your mileage may vary.

There is space in between the 2 extremes, though. At least for some of us. I LOVE Destiny. I wouldn't play it every night if that weren't the case. But I also see things I think could be done better, things that can be improved. So I come here to talk about them. And more often than not, the issues I have get fixed down the road because Bungie is fantastic at listening to feedback and working to keep the fans engaged :)

You are equating hours to worth. I think most equate the quality of those hours, instead of the quantity to worth.

For me, almost all of the time, they're the same thing - because when I'm not enjoying myself, I stop playing.

If you see Destiny as a grind, or you play to reach some non-"I'm playing because I like this game" goal... your mileage may vary.

There is space in between the 2 extremes, though. At least for some of us. I LOVE Destiny. I wouldn't play it every night if that weren't the case. But I also see things I think could be done better, things that can be improved. So I come here to talk about them. And more often than not, the issues I have get fixed down the road because Bungie is fantastic at listening to feedback and working to keep the fans engaged :)

I'm nowhere near the extreme - I definitely have problems with parts of Destiny. And I'd love for them to be 'fixed' (read: made more enjoyable to me). And I love the discussion that happens here, and elsewhere on the internet, and I LOVE that some of that gets incorporated into the game in ways that (generally) make people happy.

I guess what I don't love is the hyperbole. Or even the specific focus on the negative. I read some of these posts, and in a vacuum (which is where some of our forumgoers are coming from, remember; not everyone hangs out here all the time), I could certainly be forgiven for thinking that people like you actually disliked the game in general. Sentences like this:

"The arenas are poorly designed, the encounters are dull, and the boss fights flip between ridiculously punishing and easily exploitable."

do NOT leave a lot of room for discussion - if I believed that sentence (without qualifiers - and you put no qualifiers in) I would never enter PoE again. Period.

I realize that in the moment you wrote that, it's how you felt. (In fact, come to think of it, that might be how you feel in GENERAL about PoE, and your cutoff for "never going back in" might just be farther down the frustration scale than mine.) All I'm really saying is that if I were to go by your words alone, I'd be baffled about why you still play certain modes. :)

When you think about it, that's also the reason people were frustrated by the Atheon teleport randomization "fix".

I still think that was a poor decision, by the way. The only reason why it's not a big deal anymore is because we're all level 30+.

I always thought it was a half-good decision. They should have left alone for normal difficulty.

Agreed. It was a fun mechanic. I wonder if there's more to that decision than simply "upping the difficulty" or "encouraging everyone to take the relic".

Sentences like this:

"The arenas are poorly designed, the encounters are dull, and the boss fights flip between ridiculously punishing and easily exploitable."

But Claude, my sentence directly before that was "I know there are lots of people who disagree with me on this, but in my opinion Prison of Elders just doesn't cut it."

I specifically wrote that to avoid having my complaints come off as hyperbole. I was very careful to frame every single complaint as being "in my opinion" or something along those lines. I also make sure to include constructive feedback around every single complaint I post, so that it doesn't come across as mindless negativity.

I sometimes feel like any post that hints at being less than happy about a specific aspect of this game is met with "if you don't like it, stop playing it" from a portion of DBOers. And that doesn't seem particularly constructive to me (just as posting rampant negativity isn't constructive either) :)

All I'm really saying is that if I were to go by your words alone, I'd be baffled about why you still play certain modes. :)

Part of what I cut from my original op was that I think Destiny overall is looking better than it ever has at this point. I was trying to keep my post shorter, so I cut it. To your point, I probably shouldn't have done so, as my overall feelings about the game may not have come across.

Agreed, for the most part.

I don't think Destiny suffers much vs ME3 when comparing the various player classes of the two. ME3 had more, for sure, but Destiny's six subclasses along the various different subclass builds along with the special wrinkles offered by exotic weapons and armors compares pretty well to ME3 in my mind. Enough so that I'd call it a solid tie in that area between the two games.

Where ME3 did much better is where Destiny's PvE as a whole falls down: Destiny, from story missions, to Strikes, to PoE, and even to Raids just ends the action too soon. Story missions and Strikes are pretty short and then dump you back to orbit. PoE ramps up the difficulty from 0 to 100 far too quickly over each area's three rounds. Even Raids, once figured out, are just five or six distinct challenges. ME3's multiplayer keeps you in the same area for 11 rounds that slowly but surely ramp in difficulty. That both allows a slower ramp in difficulty, but also allows more variety in enemy mixes. Destiny probably doesn't have the sheer variety of enemy units but it could still have a lot more fun with the unit composition if it had more rounds with which to play with. (I want an all Shank and Snipers round for instance.)

If I had ultimate power to "fix" PoE I'd do a couple of things:

1. Bigger arenas. ME3 gets away with smaller levels (like that tiny two floor research station) because its levels are all flat slices connected by ladders and right angles forming corridors. It's easier to hold a long straight shooting lane (especially with invincible sticky cover!) that it is to hold the various asymmetric safe points in Destiny's PoE. This is probably a visual and even an AI win for Destiny (ME3's AI basically moves forward while Destiny's can also more dynamically circle around or break line of sight) but it also means I very often feel completely pinned in PoE with absolutely nowhere to go that I won't immediately be completely pinned again. You could run away and regroup more often in ME3 than you ever can in PoE. Bigger levels with more distinct defensible zones would help here I think.

2. More types of challenges spread over a longer continuous period of action. First, PoE needs more than the three challenge types, and I'd bet anything it'll get more sooner or later, but mainly it feels like you just get started and then everything grinds to a halt while you go back to the airlock. Perhaps instead give me six waves before the airlock but only two or three different maps? Or nine waves, some with objectives some without, and then maybe fight the boss all in the same (now larger!) play area.

I think that combination of bigger maps plus more objective types and longer stretches of action would do a lot to beef up PoE.

Sentences like this:

"The arenas are poorly designed, the encounters are dull, and the boss fights flip between ridiculously punishing and easily exploitable."

But Claude, my sentence directly before that was "I know there are lots of people who disagree with me on this, but in my opinion Prison of Elders just doesn't cut it."

I specifically wrote that to avoid having my complaints come off as hyperbole. I was very careful to frame every single complaint as being "in my opinion" or something along those lines. I also make sure to include constructive feedback around every single complaint I post, so that it doesn't come across as mindless negativity.

I sometimes feel like any post that hints at being less than happy about a specific aspect of this game is met with "if you don't like it, stop playing it" from a portion of DBOers. And that doesn't seem particularly constructive to me (just as posting rampant negativity isn't constructive either) :)

All I'm really saying is that if I were to go by your words alone, I'd be baffled about why you still play certain modes. :)

Part of what I cut from my original op was that I think Destiny overall is looking better than it ever has at this point. I was trying to keep my post shorter, so I cut it. To your point, I probably shouldn't have done so, as my overall feelings about the game may not have come across.

I'm not sure I'm making my point. I READ the line before the sentence I quoted, and I KNOW you specifically stated that it's your opinion. 'Hyperbole' is probably not the right word to use. I'm not sure what the right word is.

What I tried to say was, your sentence left zero room (in my brain) for wiggle. You don't like the arenas, you don't like the encounters, you don't like the boss fights.

There isn't anything left.

If I played a mode where I thought the arenas were designed badly, and the encounters were dull, except the boss was fun to go up against... I'd probably go back. If The encounters were dull (and the boss was an exercise in frustration), but the arenas were really cool, maybe I'd go back. If the boss sucked and the arenas sucked but the general encounters were fun... I'd go back, I'd just do it less because the boss fight would put me off.

IF ALL THREE SUCKED, I WOULDN'T PLAY.

And that's me. Clearly, it's not you. Clearly, it's not other people here, either, since I see similar "there is nothing about this encounter I enjoy" posts from people who are obviously going back and doing this mode or that again.

I get that for the most part you like Destiny. But your original post in this thread makes it pretty clear that there's really nothing about Prison of Elders that you enjoy... and I'm pretty sure that's been mostly true since it came out (again, judging by your posts). So I guess I was expressing surprise that you were continuing to play the mode.

::shrug::

(As an example: I tried out ToO last week. I had a miserable time. I won't go back until something changes. The fact that there's now an Elimination mode in normal Crucible, one that is more forgiving than ToO while still allowing me to build up some experience with the style... maybe I'll give it another try down the road (if Elimination turns out to be fun). But certainly until there's a marked change in either me or the game, it will be a mode I simply will not play. Period. I guess I can't wrap my head around people who think differently on this particular issue. Weakness on my part, not yours.)

That's all, really.

If I played a mode where I thought the arenas were designed badly, and the encounters were dull, except the boss was fun to go up against... I'd probably go back. If The encounters were dull (and the boss was an exercise in frustration), but the arenas were really cool, maybe I'd go back. If the boss sucked and the arenas sucked but the general encounters were fun... I'd go back, I'd just do it less because the boss fight would put me off.

IF ALL THREE SUCKED, I WOULDN'T PLAY.

This was my first time playing level 35 Prison of Elders. Probably should have mentioned that lol!

I totally see where you're coming from here, and that's my fault for not including that specific info.

I'd never tried level 35, never done the Skolas fight. I said to myself "I haven't enjoyed PoE so far, but I want to see this content". Who knows, maybe I'd find a boss fight I liked, maybe the difficulty would change things in a certain way. Either way, I wanted to see it for myself.

And that's me. Clearly, it's not you. Clearly, it's not other people here, either, since I see similar "there is nothing about this encounter I enjoy" posts from people who are obviously going back and doing this mode or that again.

More info I left out (I really suck at this sometimes ;p). I've played very little PoE since HoW launched, simply because I don't enjoy it. But I do go back in to a level 28 or 32 about once per week just to see if my perspective changes. Once in a while I tend to slip in to "analytical" mode during my Destiny playtime, because I talk about this stuff on my podcast every week. I try to figure out why I enjoy some things, why others don't work for me. So yes, I dabble, but generally speaking I have avoided playing PoE.

This was my first time playing level 35 Prison of Elders. Probably should have mentioned that lol!

I totally see where you're coming from here, and that's my fault for not including that specific info.

I'd never tried level 35, never done the Skolas fight. I said to myself "I haven't enjoyed PoE so far, but I want to see this content". Who knows, maybe I'd find a boss fight I liked, maybe the difficulty would change things in a certain way. Either way, I wanted to see it for myself.

I will say this, and you don't like PoE in general so it won't matter a whole lot, but Void Burn was the first time I thought "Wow! Skolas is actually a pretty fun fight!" Solar and Arc makes it too much of a race to kill Skolas as quickly as you possibly can so you don't get killed in one shot by Skolas or the adds. I don't mind solar and arc because they aren't that hard with the right weapons, but Void was a blast.

I agree with everything you've stated here.

Personally, I still don't plan on paying for any more Destiny stuffs.

Even Taken king? Rumored there's a new planet, as well as 18+ story missions and a raid. You could argue that the two DLC packs available currently should have been rolled in together into a bigger pack, but 'Comet' sounds decent.

But I don't want to have to buy most of that stuff. I asked last night about the likelihood that TK would include a new planet, but afterward realized how dissatisfied I am with the planets we have already.

I don't want any more lame story missions.
I don't want any more PvP maps.

If they were selling raids at $5 a pop, I'd jump at that, but they're not. They're (probably) going to bundle all this stuff together and charge the price of a full game for it.

And frankly, I don't really want to play more Destiny, I just really like playing anything with a lot of the people here.

That's also your opinion. I have no qualms about a 10 year game plan. Most of my favorite game were not one off's but series. Rainbow Six, CoD, Splinter Cell, Battlefield, and of course Halo. I'd say Halo's first 10 years, all the Bungie years were great.

Those are separate games in a series. That is dramatically different than one game continually updated with DLC. Five games in ten years is fine. One game with lots of content updates in ten years is not.

I don't know why everyone is still fixated on this and so sure what it means. They said they have a ten-year plan. I'm not aware of them ever saying (or even implying) this one game was supposed to have ten years of content updates, and they've barely even mentioned that ten-year figure since the game launched. In fact, I think the first few times they said it they were specifically talking about the story, not the volume of gameplay or number of games or anything else. Making this game last 10 years would be dumb, IMHO. There's no guarantee the older consoles' networks will even be up and running that long.

I agree on almost all points.

The big difference for me is that ME3 had far more distinction in their enemy types. The way in which you fought a grunt unit was totally different from how you fought a banshee was totally different from how you fought those ninja dudes (sorry, it's been a while since I played and I forget all the unit names). In destiny, the strategy for every single enemy is to shoot it in the face (or bird poop pod). There's no flanking (or point to flanking, since it often means you can no longer hit the critical spot), and there's no enemy where you're safer running away than you are just killing it. If you do run in Destiny, it's a last ditch effort that usually screws over your teammates who will not be able to rescue you as a result. Also, because of how enemies in Destiny spawn and move, you're often too busy covering your own ass to help a friend. In PoE, the enemies have so many hitpoints that even your supers are unlikely to clear an area (my golden gun is now purely used to strip flame shields, or if I think it will take too long to reload hawkmoon and I have 1 almost dead guy I have to kill *right now*).

Where ME3 needed a team to take strategic positions in order to spread the enemy thinner, and you were in trouble if you ever got pinned down, Destiny needs a team to group together in order to provide constant pushback against the horde, which really just means you're pinned down wherever you go and that being pinned down is really the optimal strategy. It's less compelling gameplay to me.

Furthermore, Not only did ME3's waves ramp up more slowly in difficulty, as you point out, but the waves all spawn in predictable numbers so you have a real sense of progress as you defeat enemies. In PoE, specifically, I often feel like the waves end after X amount of time rather than after defeating Y enemies, though I'm honestly not sure how they do it. It just seems like there are always 30 enemies out in the map, regardless of how many I kill or don't kill, until suddenly there are zero enemies left.

PoE = defend the corner, so no matter how awesome the maps are, 95% of those maps are not used.

Your post has raised two distinct thoughts to me that I've been mulling for a bit here.

The first: it's good to have both sides of an issue presented, and I think you've done a good job in the past of listing where PoE might not meet the standard Bungie set for themselves previously in endgame, especially if you found the raids to be the real meat of the game so far. Generally, whenever you get an opinion on the internet, it can be easy for one side to drown out the other, until everybody left in a forum is a homogeneous vanilla paste. It's always worth raising a potentially unpopular opinion, and sticking to it (kudos).

That said, you did raise that opinion two weeks ago, and we had a lengthy (and sometimes less than constructive) discussion on the subject. It's continued in this thread. Consider if you'd just posted those last two paragraphs?

I think we should have gotten more with House of Wolves, but there's no point in lamenting that fact. That's why I bring up level 34 versions of the 2 existing raids. We need a top level PvE activity other than PoE, and we need it yesterday. I don't see any chance of getting new content before The Taken King, but if Bungie could at least give us higher-difficulty versions of Crota's End and VoG, we would have a couple worthwhile activities to hold us over.

The vault space issue is tricky. I know it's not a problem for the majority of Destiny players, therefore it is difficult for Bungie to prioritize. Personally speaking, new gear is a big part of Destiny's replay value. Not just having it, but actually using it. I enjoy swapping gear as I replay missions over and over... helps keep things fresh. But at this point, I'm full. I can squeeze in a couple more heavy weapons, and that's it. With the ability to acquire new gear gone, Destiny becomes a bit less appealing.

So that's my thought of the day. Level 34 raids and more vault space pleeaaaze :)

These are excellent points, and this thread as a whole should probably have focused on them. It's quite likely something Bungie could implement, and it's worth bringing up. But if it's blanketed with an affirmation that yes, you did the PoE 35 and you still don't care for PoE, you've gone back and brought up that past conversation. And the cycle repeats.

The second thought: part of the backlash I'm seeing in this thread *might* be an editorial issue. Specifically, your use of the first person plural. Looking back at one of those last paragraphs:

I think we should have gotten more with House of Wolves, but there's no point in lamenting that fact. That's why I bring up level 34 versions of the 2 existing raids. We need a top level PvE activity other than PoE, and we need it yesterday. I don't see any chance of getting new content before The Taken King, but if Bungie could at least give us higher-difficulty versions of Crota's End and VoG, we would have a couple worthwhile activities to hold us over.

Now you're telling people what they think, when it's really what you think. And subconsciously, that never sits well with someone who disagrees with you.

Furthermore, if you also respond to every dissenting opinion in the thread, it starts to make it feel like you've harped on this point more times than you actually have. It's sometimes worth letting dissenting opinions sit and be what they are, or you can end up drowning out the discussion.

Just some thoughts. I do really like the level 34 raid idea; it would be nice to use all those 365 guns and still have things be tough.

When you think about it, that's also the reason people were frustrated by the Atheon teleport randomization "fix".

I still think that was a poor decision, by the way. The only reason why it's not a big deal anymore is because we're all level 30+.

I always thought it was a half-good decision. They should have left alone for normal difficulty.

Agreed. It was a fun mechanic. I wonder if there's more to that decision than simply "upping the difficulty" or "encouraging everyone to take the relic".

I respected the rationale that they wanted everyone to be able to do everything, but I thought it would be cool if they had a training mode where you could choose. That's what normal mode could have been. Maybe it was technically difficult to have teleporting be different between the two levels.

I think maybe it's less that flanking doesn't work in Destiny, after all critical headshot damage was important in ME3 as well and generally only hittable from the front just like Destiny. I think it was more that you don't have time to flank or can't flank in Destiny because the PoE maps are already full of enemies by the time flanking becomes necessary. I'd run back and forth across the map during the Skolas battle and not be able to find 5 seconds of time to recharge my shield because some random Dreg or Shank would be lingering way the heck over there. While ME3's basic gameplay, where cover would protect you from most incoming fire, made drawing fire much easier and safer, I think flanking would work in Destiny too if the maps were bigger and if Bungie would stop or drastically reduce the number of enemies that spawned on one side for a while.

And yep, I do wish Supers in Destiny remained "super" no matter what level of enemies you were fighting. Sure, bosses and certain high level enemies should stand up to a Super, but most enemies, even fairly high level ones, shouldn't just stand there and beat you to death while you're slicing into them with Arc Blade or whatever! Maybe Supers could do more damage vs Majors, at least enough to offset the Majors' increased armor and hp, instead of being completely ineffective? It's kinda sad that the most useful Supers for high level content are the ones that turn you invisible, or block enemy shots, or bring you back after you've been killed... again...

Your post has raised two distinct thoughts to me that I've been mulling for a bit here.

The first: it's good to have both sides of an issue presented, and I think you've done a good job in the past of listing where PoE might not meet the standard Bungie set for themselves previously in endgame, especially if you found the raids to be the real meat of the game so far. Generally, whenever you get an opinion on the internet, it can be easy for one side to drown out the other, until everybody left in a forum is a homogeneous vanilla paste. It's always worth raising a potentially unpopular opinion, and sticking to it (kudos).

That said, you did raise that opinion two weeks ago, and we had a lengthy (and sometimes less than constructive) discussion on the subject. It's continued in this thread.

I guess in my mind, my previous thread was focused on the Prison of Elders and why I'm not a fan. This thread was supposed to be about some potential ways Bungie could beef up the current end game for PvE players. I wanted to reference that my reasons for disliking PoE, just because I feel that's an important part of criticism. I try to avoid assuming that everyone here is familiar with every post I've made (although that thread was tough to miss ;p),

Consider if you'd just posted those last two paragraphs?

I think we should have gotten more with House of Wolves, but there's no point in lamenting that fact. That's why I bring up level 34 versions of the 2 existing raids. We need a top level PvE activity other than PoE, and we need it yesterday. I don't see any chance of getting new content before The Taken King, but if Bungie could at least give us higher-difficulty versions of Crota's End and VoG, we would have a couple worthwhile activities to hold us over.

The vault space issue is tricky. I know it's not a problem for the majority of Destiny players, therefore it is difficult for Bungie to prioritize. Personally speaking, new gear is a big part of Destiny's replay value. Not just having it, but actually using it. I enjoy swapping gear as I replay missions over and over... helps keep things fresh. But at this point, I'm full. I can squeeze in a couple more heavy weapons, and that's it. With the ability to acquire new gear gone, Destiny becomes a bit less appealing.

So that's my thought of the day. Level 34 raids and more vault space pleeaaaze :)

These are excellent points, and this thread as a whole should probably have focused on them. It's quite likely something Bungie could implement, and it's worth bringing up. But if it's blanketed with an affirmation that yes, you did the PoE 35 and you still don't care for PoE, you've gone back and brought up that past conversation. And the cycle repeats.

You're right, but I can't help wonder why that's the case? Why can't I reference my previous PvE post without having that take over the conversation?

The second thought: part of the backlash I'm seeing in this thread *might* be an editorial issue. Specifically, your use of the first person plural. Looking back at one of those last paragraphs:

I think we should have gotten more with House of Wolves, but there's no point in lamenting that fact. That's why I bring up level 34 versions of the 2 existing raids. We need a top level PvE activity other than PoE, and we need it yesterday. I don't see any chance of getting new content before The Taken King, but if Bungie could at least give us higher-difficulty versions of Crota's End and VoG, we would have a couple worthwhile activities to hold us over.

Now you're telling people what they think, when it's really what you think. And subconsciously, that never sits well with someone who disagrees with you.

That's a very interesting point. I specifically avoided using "I" because I didn't want it to sound like I expect Bungie to add features just because "I" want them. But I never considered how using "we" might also frame things the wrong way. Something I'll need to pay closer attention to in the future. Thanks for pointing that out!

Furthermore, if you also respond to every dissenting opinion in the thread, it starts to make it feel like you've harped on this point more times than you actually have. It's sometimes worth letting dissenting opinions sit and be what they are, or you can end up drowning out the discussion.

This is another spot where I have trouble finding the balance. I post here because I want to talk about this stuff with everyone, and conversations with people who don't completely agree are more interesting. I certainly don't mean to come across as combative. I don't think my posts read that way... at least I hope they don't. But I can see how it looks to someone viewing a thread and seeing my tag replying to each and every comment.

Again, thanks for your post here. Lots of good stuff to think about :)

I never realized you were such a big fan of ME3 multiplayer. I'm ALWAYS down for an ME3 nostalgia night...

The real problem with the new content has to do with mastery.

It's very satisfying to take a problem or task, figure it out, get better at it, and end up having mastered it. Starting from something seemingly impossible, and ending up accomplished is a great feeling. Previous challenges had a lot of that. I don't think the major barrier to the Vault of Glass was ever you gear or level. Provided you were at level, you could do the raid if you prepared and knew your shit. The hard part was the strategy, and the fun part was coming up with something that would allow you to win. You could get better at the Vault without ever gaining a level or getting a new weapon.

Part of why I think people started to complain about the Crota hard mode raid is that having a level disadvantage is something that can't be overcome through pure mastery. No matter how much you practice, or strategize, that penalty to damage dealt and increase to damage received never goes away. You pretty much needed to get good gear to do it on hard. Mastery is not what you have, it's what you know.

Prison of Elders I feel has no room for mastery. Especially with the mine rounds, there is no structure or order to the fights; it's all just random. It comes down to running at the mines, and hoping you don't get shot, since they appear so quickly you can't possibly take out all the enemies before you have to start with them. Plus, their locations are not in a set order. How often do you find yourself simply running around, be it to a mine, or to escape the enemy, and just hope you don't get shot? That happens a lot in PoE. Not so much in a raid.

So you have these chaotic fights PLUS a level disadvantage, and I simply don't feel like I can ever truly improve at this without either leveling up, or getting better gear. There is a sense of accomplishment in finishing PoE 35, but not a sense that you feel that you could improve your skills and do it better the next time.

It is amazing how you are continually baffled by Bungie's continued and persistent inclusion of a certain amount of randomness in their game mechanics.

Almost as if their games were not designed to be, first and foremost, tools for measuring how good you are at playing them.

I also seem to recall many posts on this forum stating this exact same thing as a criticism of the raids-- the idea that once mastered they are no longer challenging, therefore not interesting, and no longer worth continued participation. The damage penalty of being underleveled and the randomness of things like mine locations deny mastery and thus maintain some challenge even after you know what you're supposed to do. It means you'll fail sometimes even though you know what's going on and execute as well as it is possible to execute.

It never fails to amaze me how deeply ingrained the power fantasy is; gamers complain bitterly at any element that undermines it even in the slightest-- anything that suggests that the entirety of the gameworld cannot be dominated by a player with sufficient skill.

It never fails to amaze me how deeply ingrained the power fantasy is; gamers complain bitterly at any element that undermines it even in the slightest-- anything that suggests that the entirety of the gameworld cannot be dominated by a player with sufficient skill.

Something about this point you made is stuck in my brain. I think there really is something to it, I just can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe the fact that as long as I've played videogames, they've presented a series of challenges to be overcome? That I (we?) have come to expect that if there is an obstacle in a videogame, we are supposed to conquer it? Or that the "power fantasy" is so deeply ingrained in to what games like Destiny are, that some of us have a difficult time reconciling with the idea that there are some challenges that exist outside the range of "beatable" obstacles?

I also seem to recall many posts on this forum stating this exact same thing as a criticism of the raids-- the idea that once mastered they are no longer challenging, therefore not interesting, and no longer worth continued participation.

This is true, but this is NOT a downside.

It never fails to amaze me how deeply ingrained the power fantasy is; gamers complain bitterly at any element that undermines it even in the slightest-- anything that suggests that the entirety of the gameworld cannot be dominated by a player with sufficient skill.

This is because we take on challenges so we can actually overcome them. What's better, winning the superbowl on a bad call, or winning the superbowl by being the better team?

It never fails to amaze me how deeply ingrained the power fantasy is; gamers complain bitterly at any element that undermines it even in the slightest-- anything that suggests that the entirety of the gameworld cannot be dominated by a player with sufficient skill.

Something about this point you made is stuck in my brain. I think there really is something to it, I just can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe the fact that as long as I've played videogames, they've presented a series of challenges to be overcome? That I (we?) have come to expect that if there is an obstacle in a videogame, we are supposed to conquer it?

Yeah, that's literally the entire point of playing any video game that isn't just an interactive narrative.

And that's me. Clearly, it's not you. Clearly, it's not other people here, either, since I see similar "there is nothing about this encounter I enjoy" posts from people who are obviously going back and doing this mode or that again.

For me anyway, it is a case of "suffer now for fun later". The exotics appear very interesting, and probably fun to use. Again, after I get those, I'm completely done with PoE.

Things I still enjoy in Destiny:

1. PvP
2. Trials of Osiris
3. Nightfalls

That's the extent to what I would currently play if it were simply about having fun at that given moment.

... then Comet is the first expansion that I feel will actually earn the label of "expansion". I think TDB and HoW both have some great content, but they do feel quite thin given the price and time between releases.

I've seen a number of posts making similar observations this week. Which I find funny, given how many people were saying HoW was ABSOLUTELY WORTH THE PRICE OF ENTRY after the first couple of days. ;)

Destiny apparently does not compare favorably to other games though in terms of content for dollars. You hear all the time WoW has more stuff to do. WoW is 15 bucks a month (I think), and up until this point Destiny has cost $11.25 a month, without counting PSN plus. Not that I think WoW "things to do" are necessarily something Bungie should strive for, but this is where that criticism is coming from.

In my opinion, Destiny would have been better served as a 40 hour game, that is compact, with a high awesome per second ratio. Note that many years ago, I called upon that same principle and was chewed out by Matt Soell, saying it was nebulous and unhelpful, yet here 6 years later the game designers at extra credits are espousing it. They work as consultants, so they actually teach and tell people this stuff.

Destiny unfortunately has a rather low awesome per second ratio when you consider everything.

I actually do make a point of using almost all my gear on a regular basis. As I've said before, that's how I get a lot of replay value out of Destiny: I try replaying all the content with different gear, different playstyles, on a regular basis.

Can confirm: you are the only person I have ever seen who used Super Good Advice in Crota's End!

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Destiny apparently does not compare favorably to other games though in terms of content for dollars. You hear all the time WoW has more stuff to do. WoW is 15 bucks a month (I think), and up until this point Destiny has cost $11.25 a month, without counting PSN plus. Not that I think WoW "things to do" are necessarily something Bungie should strive for, but this is where that criticism is coming from.

WoW cost $40 new, when it first came out. Destiny cost $60 when it first came out (and quickly dropped to $30 - it's $19 on Amazon right now).

WoW cost $15/month from the start - the expansion pass (which provided new content at 3 and 9 months) cost $35.

I'm not sure I understand your math.

Something about this point you made is stuck in my brain. I think there really is something to it, I just can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe the fact that as long as I've played videogames, they've presented a series of challenges to be overcome? That I (we?) have come to expect that if there is an obstacle in a videogame, we are supposed to conquer it? Or that the "power fantasy" is so deeply ingrained in to what games like Destiny are, that some of us have a difficult time reconciling with the idea that there are some challenges that exist outside the range of "beatable" obstacles?

What came to mind immediately for me was the outcry over the ending of Mass Effect 3.

Not so much the skill mastery issue, but the power fantasy issue-- the idea that what gamers are used to is being set free in a world and then, to the maximum degree possible, shaping that world entirely. That's what messianic hero characters do. In Halo that means destroying the Covenant, the Flood, and every Forerunner ring we find, along with anyone who stands in our way. So everything in our way has to be beatable, defeatable, by design. It doesn't make for a particularly believable game world, of course, but that's where suspension of belief comes in.

In RPGs it means saving the world, perhaps even coming to rule it. So when ME3 ends with a tough choice that remakes the galaxy in a way that has advantages and disadvantages, it undermines the extreme player agency people are used to.

I think all of Destiny's enemies are meant to be beaten. But the game of "collecting all the stuff" isn't meant to be. It is clearly not meant to be a meritocracy where all the best players have all the best guns. First of all, the best players are already the best and don't need better guns; and secondly, when you've then got all the guns there are to get, you put the game down. For whatever reason, Bungie has extended the player engagement that normally only includes multiplayer to the PVE experience-- perhaps because it makes players better customers for DLC, or because that's just the game they wanted to play-- Diablo and Halo combined. (Several people at Bungie were big Diablo 2 players.)

That also leads to a lack of variety. If, as some players have asked for, there was a reliable and predictable way to get all rewards, then the collection of items amongst similarly-skilled players would be the same. Player preference alone isn't enough to guarantee a variety in how players play, especially because balance is hard and player communities tend to min-max stuff when they can.

Lots of design choices in Destiny seem to back up the idea that they want a variety of players using a variety of gear, not letting them settle on a perfect combination that is the same everywhere. If everybody had a Gjallarhorn everyone would use it all the time-- why bother modeling all the other guns, then?

RNG means some of the best players won't have some of the best weapons, and vice versa. Burns and other wrinkles in particular events mean that you won't always use the "best" gun in all situations. I think this is part of what Bungie wants for the Destiny experience.

I also seem to recall many posts on this forum stating this exact same thing as a criticism of the raids-- the idea that once mastered they are no longer challenging, therefore not interesting, and no longer worth continued participation.

This is true, but this is NOT a downside.

I wish I had the time to point out the post where I'm pretty sure you said exactly that. Maybe someone else will come through for me.

This is because we take on challenges so we can actually overcome them. What's better, winning the superbowl on a bad call, or winning the superbowl by being the better team?

What possible pride can there be in defeating a challenge that is purely made in order to be defeatable, never varies, and is guaranteed to produce the same result with the same input? Hardly anything works that way except arbitrary constructs created for precisely that purpose.

In so many fields of endeavour it is possible (if not likely) to fail not just because you made a mistake, or because you weren't good enough, but because of circumstances entirely outside of your control. In PVP that element is the other team. In PVE, it's sometimes random elements or other mechanics that are not purely skill-based.

I'm not saying Destiny is perfect, I'm just saying that it has been very, very clear to me that Bungie's design parameters are not aiming for the kind of perfection you want, and I'm continually amused at your consternation over their failure to seek it.

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This was my first time playing level 35 Prison of Elders. Probably should have mentioned that lol!

I totally see where you're coming from here, and that's my fault for not including that specific info.

I'd never tried level 35, never done the Skolas fight. I said to myself "I haven't enjoyed PoE so far, but I want to see this content". Who knows, maybe I'd find a boss fight I liked, maybe the difficulty would change things in a certain way. Either way, I wanted to see it for myself.

I will say this, and you don't like PoE in general so it won't matter a whole lot, but Void Burn was the first time I thought "Wow! Skolas is actually a pretty fun fight!" Solar and Arc makes it too much of a race to kill Skolas as quickly as you possibly can so you don't get killed in one shot by Skolas or the adds. I don't mind solar and arc because they aren't that hard with the right weapons, but Void was a blast.

I actually wanted to try fighting him that way, rather than doing the Gjallarhorn insta-burn. But the solar burn made the Captain's flak cannons too punishing to deal with. Maybe I'll give it a try the next time Void damage rolls around :)

It never fails to amaze me how deeply ingrained the power fantasy is; gamers complain bitterly at any element that undermines it even in the slightest-- anything that suggests that the entirety of the gameworld cannot be dominated by a player with sufficient skill.

Something about this point you made is stuck in my brain. I think there really is something to it, I just can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe the fact that as long as I've played videogames, they've presented a series of challenges to be overcome? That I (we?) have come to expect that if there is an obstacle in a videogame, we are supposed to conquer it? Or that the "power fantasy" is so deeply ingrained in to what games like Destiny are, that some of us have a difficult time reconciling with the idea that there are some challenges that exist outside the range of "beatable" obstacles?

I think you guys are off on this. Failing (or for that matter winning) because of randomness rather than skill feels unfair, and a big reason for engaging in any media-- and especially games and sports-- is to escape the unfairness of life. A good game is fair, because that feels good. Maybe that ties into the power fantasy, because you have the power to make things always turn out in your favor if you're skilled enough, but a good game also has enough challenge that it's nearly impossible to do that, and it does it without bullshit deaths or failures.
That's not to say there's no place for randomness. Good enemy AI is unpredictable to a certain extent and that's hard to do without a degree of randomness. It's standard practice to play on a random map when you go into multiplayer, and until Destiny it was standard for Bungie games to give you a random gametype too, and people like that for a variety of reasons. The random strikes and burns for weeklies and Nightfalls fit this, as do the random bosses, burns, buffs, and bobstacles in the Prison of Elders.
The trick is to make it not feel like the proverbial dice are trying to kill you without it getting dull and samey.

I think you guys are off on this. Failing (or for that matter winning) because of randomness rather than skill feels unfair, and a big reason for engaging in any media-- and especially games and sports-- is to escape the unfairness of life.

That also leads to a lack of variety. If, as some players have asked for, there was a reliable and predictable way to get all rewards, then the collection of items amongst similarly-skilled players would be the same.

So what? That's how is was in every other FPS ever. The key is to have predictable loot, but have every gun behave differently and be useful for certain playstyles and situations, and have a wide variety of challenges that mean you have to mix and match.

What possible pride can there be in defeating a challenge that is purely made in order to be defeatable, never varies, and is guaranteed to produce the same result with the same input? Hardly anything works that way except arbitrary constructs created for precisely that purpose.

You're not looking at it right. The challenges are impossible to defeat when you start them, since you do not have the knowledge, or the skills to do so. The Cody Miller on September 9th could not defeat the Vault of Glass, but the Cody Miller of September 17th could. That's because the one Cody grew in to the other, and had to improve!

The best challenges are impossible at first. The only way to make them possible is to improve your condition, and THAT is what is satisfying.

This again just supports my arguments. I remember Narcogen arguing back in the Halo 3 days, that the best game is one where every player FEELS like they are going to lose, but never goes and is always on the edge. I think that's dumb. You ACTUALLY have to be able to fail, because if you never do, it means you are already good enough. Failure forces you to improve, and improvement is where the satisfaction comes.

Again, the best challenges are challenges you cannot defeat the minute you start them, and can only do so by failing, then improving based on that.

This again just supports my arguments. I remember Narcogen arguing back in the Halo 3 days, that the best game is one where every player FEELS like they are going to lose, but never goes and is always on the edge. I think that's dumb. You ACTUALLY have to be able to fail, because if you never do, it means you are already good enough. Failure forces you to improve, and improvement is where the satisfaction comes.

Again, the best challenges are challenges you cannot defeat the minute you start them, and can only do so by failing, then improving based on that.

I guess if everyone were Jordan it would apply? I don't think it applies to any of these arguments, whether you be narc or cody.

This is another spot where I have trouble finding the balance. I post here because I want to talk about this stuff with everyone, and conversations with people who don't completely agree are more interesting. I certainly don't mean to come across as combative. I don't think my posts read that way... at least I hope they don't.

They don't.

WoW was released in 2004.

So yes, shockingly, a game released eleven years ago has more "things to do" than a game that was released last year.

Fix your shit Bungie!