Player Investment
by Xenos 
, Shores of Time, Wednesday, May 08, 2013, 23:40 (4226 days ago)
MoreConsole posted another YouTube video about the job postings on Bungie, and I saw one that I thought was very relavent to conversations had on our forum, namely Player Investment Designer:
"Do you dream about creating worlds imbued with real value and consequence? Can you tell the difference between a simple reward that only drives the player to the game and a meaningful incentive that truly captivates their imagination? Do you have ideas for systems that will enable a player to evolve within the heart-pounding experience of an action game? If you answered yes to any of these questions (and you're a passionate gamer with an unrelenting work-ethic) you might want to polish up your resume and apply to be Bungie’s next Player Investment Designer."
Definitely happy about the directions they are aiming for here.
old as the hills
by scarab , Thursday, May 09, 2013, 05:44 (4225 days ago) @ Xenos
- No text -
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Thursday, May 09, 2013, 07:20 (4225 days ago) @ scarab
...but it seemed relavent considering the several conversations we've had lately about player investment.
...were started because of that job description.
...they were started for many different reasons. One of them was the Raid Designer job description (which is NOT the one I posted about) there was also one posted about microtransactions (which are a way of keeping people coming back to the game AKA player investment) and two were started randomly about rewards in game (this one and this one).
Do I really have to defend posting a topic on this forum? Geez.
Raid Designer job description (which is NOT the one I posted about) there was also one posted about microtransactions
We were talking about player investment, I thought. We've had multiple conversations about that subject. I did not think you meant every subject we've had on DBO recently with even the most contrived connection.
'Microtransactions' is short-hand for a particular monetization strategy. If you mean extra content being released after the game's initial ship, that can come with or without the monetization strategy.
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, May 09, 2013, 11:49 (4225 days ago) @ Xenos
edited by Cody Miller, Thursday, May 09, 2013, 12:03
...but it seemed relavent considering the several conversations we've had lately about player investment.
This posting has been known for a long time, and is my #1 worry about destiny, since polluting the game with player investment systems could ruin or seriously diminish an otherwise good game. I wrote about this after seeing this job posting back in December 2010.
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Thursday, May 09, 2013, 11:56 (4225 days ago) @ Cody Miller
This posting has been known for a long time, and is my #1 worry about destiny, since polluting the game with player investment systems could ruin or otherwise seriously diminish an otherwise good game. I wrote about this after seeing this job posting back in December 2010.
See that's an interesting difference between you and me. I am definitely considered about the term "player investment" but the wording of that job posting actually comforts me quite a bit because it's not "simple reward[s] that only drive the player to the game" which is the kind of player investment I do not like. From the wording of the post I'm even hoping it's fiction related stuff based on this part: "a meaningful incentive that truly captivates their imagination?" When I read your explanations I understand your point but it is somewhat amusing to me that we read the same thing and interpret it in almost opposite ways. It's part of the reason I enjoy this forum, getting different perspectives than my own.
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, May 09, 2013, 12:05 (4225 days ago) @ Xenos
See that's an interesting difference between you and me. I am definitely considered about the term "player investment" but the wording of that job posting actually comforts me quite a bit because it's not "simple reward[s] that only drive the player to the game" which is the kind of player investment I do not like. From the wording of the post I'm even hoping it's fiction related stuff based on this part: "a meaningful incentive that truly captivates their imagination?" When I read your explanations I understand your point but it is somewhat amusing to me that we read the same thing and interpret it in almost opposite ways. It's part of the reason I enjoy this forum, getting different perspectives than my own.
A meaningful incentive that captures your imagination isn't a player investment system. That's just making a good game… and you don't need to hire player investment designers to make a good game.
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Leisandir , Virginia, USA, Thursday, May 09, 2013, 12:08 (4225 days ago) @ Cody Miller
Such a system results in a player becoming invested in the game. Ergo, player investment system.
How can you use such broad definitions sometimes and such narrow ones at other times?
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Thursday, May 09, 2013, 12:13 (4225 days ago) @ Leisandir
Such a system results in a player becoming invested in the game. Ergo, player investment system.
How can you use such broad definitions sometimes and such narrow ones at other times?
If I understand correctly, Cody usually takes the phrases to mean what the rest of the industry uses the phrase as, which is a pretty legitimate POV. I am (like at least some of us) quite a bit of a fanboy so I usually think: Bungie is going to take what other developers do and strip away the crap and make it awesome.
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Thursday, May 09, 2013, 13:01 (4225 days ago) @ Xenos
If I understand correctly, Cody usually takes the phrases to mean what the rest of the industry uses the phrase as, which is a pretty legitimate POV. I am (like at least some of us) quite a bit of a fanboy so I usually think: Bungie is going to take what other developers do and strip away the crap and make it awesome.
I admit to being in this camp.
Yeah I thought it might be...
by SonofMacPhisto , Thursday, May 09, 2013, 13:20 (4225 days ago) @ Kermit
I like keeping both views in mind. Bungie could make it awesome, but words mean things in particular contexts, and often show what you think whether you, or others, like what you think or not.
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Malagate , Sea of Tranquility, Thursday, May 09, 2013, 15:42 (4225 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto
I think Bingle deserves the benefit of the doubt, but this isn't the most unbiased environment. I'd like to think that anything that smacks of cigar-chomping, profits-minded corporate attitudes is simply something that Activision has found a way to leverage for themselves into the situation. Remember, maps for Halo 2 became free after a certain point. Not so with any Halo add-ons after that, unless I'm mistaken. I trust (and have no indication otherwise, yet) that similar attitudes still prevail there, and that we'll see a focus on the game experience trump all other considerations; even the almighty dollar. They're in the business of building quality shit, the kind of shit that sells itself. Money-grubbing gimmicks are unbecoming, and they know it.
There is nothing that works against one's suspension of disbelief, sense of immersion, and
of unadulterated fun quite like pay gates.
"Player Investment" need not necessarily mean "ways for The Man to have his hand in your pocket", how about simply "making things fun and engaging over a long period of time"? Ten years of Halo seems to have passed quicker than I would have thought, but it certainly wore on me like I've heard it did on some of Bungie themselves. They have the experience and the skill on-hand, I trust no other developer as much to keep things fun and not be picking my pocket all the while.
For what it's worth, I love this part of a game's lifecycle most of all; when so many things are possible. Bungie is capable of changing the way we interact with and experience our entertainment in significant ways. I think we should remain open to what could be instead of expecting to be disappointed.
I expect great things.
~M
Needless to say, I wholeheartedly agree.
Yeah I thought it might be...
A lack of significant player investment is what has kept me from playing any of the Halo games in multiplayer to any significant degree.
I say Bring On The Trumpets!
BTW: You use incredibly strong innately-negative metaphors such as "polluting" the game, when there's no proof that such a system will do anything of the sort. I don't appreciate that. :(
Yeah I thought it might be...
BTW: You use incredibly strong innately-negative metaphors such as "polluting" the game, when there's no proof that such a system will do anything of the sort. I don't appreciate that. :(
No no no no no no - that's how he draws you in! Don't look at him! EnderCody's only attack when they're seen . . .
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Friday, May 10, 2013, 08:51 (4224 days ago) @ Jillybean
BTW: You use incredibly strong innately-negative metaphors such as "polluting" the game, when there's no proof that such a system will do anything of the sort. I don't appreciate that. :(
No no no no no no - that's how he draws you in! Don't look at him! EnderCody's only attack when they're seen . . .
Your only choice is to record yourself at all times now.
Yeah I thought it might be...
Zero tolerance on abuse of the English language.
Living in Scotland is hard enough! "Outwith" my arse! :P
Yeah I thought it might be...
Hey! Outwith is a perfectly cromulent word!
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, May 12, 2013, 08:47 (4222 days ago) @ Oz Mills
A lack of significant player investment is what has kept me from playing any of the Halo games in multiplayer to any significant degree.
This sentence is the epitome of what I'm talking about.
Yeah I thought it might be...
A lack of significant player investment is what has kept me from playing any of the Halo games in multiplayer to any significant degree.
![[image]](http://teamschoolyd.org/filenames/nartfopc%20and%20schooly%20d%20are%20not%20amused.jpg)
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Kalamari , Waiting for Ghorn, FB, and BH, Tuesday, May 14, 2013, 08:17 (4220 days ago) @ Oz Mills
This makes me wonder, have we reached the point where gamers won't accept a game unless it contains some sort of addictive reward system for them grind out. Similar to how people will only accept cell phones that can play games or take pictures. So much so that currently all cell phones possess these extraneous capabilities that aren't necessary for phone calls. Have gamers become conditioned to expect player investment systems in most new games?
Yes, I know it's not a perfect analogy, but I think it serves my point well enough. I am pretty sure a cell phone without a camera or games would sell pretty poorly these days.
Is designing a good player investment system just as/more important than designing a good game? Without an addictive reward system, how do developers expect gamers to accept their game?
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Tuesday, May 14, 2013, 08:37 (4220 days ago) @ Kalamari
This makes me wonder, have we reached the point where gamers won't accept a game unless it contains some sort of addictive reward system for them grind out. Similar to how people will only accept cell phones that can play games or take pictures. So much so that currently all cell phones possess these extraneous capabilities that aren't necessary for phone calls. Have gamers become conditioned to expect player investment systems in most new games?
Yes, I know it's not a perfect analogy, but I think it serves my point well enough. I am pretty sure a cell phone without a camera or games would sell pretty poorly these days.
Is designing a good player investment system just as/more important than designing a good game? Without an addictive reward system, how do developers expect gamers to accept their game?
Personally I don't think so, I think plenty of games sell well that don't have addictive reward systems (except for achievements, but I am 99% sure those are required by Microsoft and other distribution companies). A few examples: Bioshock games, Metro 2033 and Last Light, and Portal 1 & 2 as just a few examples. I definitely think they are (sadly) the exception to the rule now, but they definitely exist and can sell very well.
Yeah I thought it might be...
This makes me wonder, have we reached the point where gamers won't accept a game unless it contains some sort of addictive reward system for them grind out. Similar to how people will only accept cell phones that can play games or take pictures. So much so that currently all cell phones possess these extraneous capabilities that aren't necessary for phone calls. Have gamers become conditioned to expect player investment systems in most new games?
Yes, I know it's not a perfect analogy, but I think it serves my point well enough. I am pretty sure a cell phone without a camera or games would sell pretty poorly these days.
Is designing a good player investment system just as/more important than designing a good game? Without an addictive reward system, how do developers expect gamers to accept their game?
I think gamers will still accept them, they will just not invest as much time in them. The game developers take note of that and the rest is history.
Yeah I thought it might be...
by Leisandir , Virginia, USA, Tuesday, May 14, 2013, 15:38 (4220 days ago) @ Cold
Time spent playing a game only matters if it's a subscription or pay-to-unlock-based game. Otherwise, it only sells Xbox Live or sequels.
There are plenty of games that don't have these systems, but there are a couple of things which make it look otherwise. First of all, in the last two or three years, F2P has become viable and there have been dozens of games with that model showing up in the market. Second of all, Call of Duty and Battlefield, the two most widely played multiplayer first-person-shooters, and now Halo, all use essentially the same form of player investment.
Games like Dishonored use a version of it, but one which is refined and well built: you unlock things which directly and positively affect your experience, and you unlock them through the enjoyable activities of exploration and progression. We're not going to see "15k xp to unlock the M4's foregrip" become standard, but we may see well made systems of progression become more common.