The update is up!

Right Here

Edit... And it looks like we pulled a Taylor Swift everyone!

The update is up!

Right Here

Still reading, but that Luke letter was... unexpected.

Is the collectors edition content a $20 micro transaction?

I have no idea what to believe anymore.

You can smell the damage control.

Twenty dollars for day 1 cosmetics, though? Seems way expensive, even if we charge a bit higher for the exotics.

Edit... And it looks like we pulled a Taylor Swift everyone!

Never.

As a consumer, I was disappointed that the Digital and Physical Collector's editions of TTK cost the same, so I'm glad to see the new pricing structure going into effect.

It's also helpful that they're talking about the fact that it's not JUST the exclusive class items that will have stats and perks; other class items will be similarly endowed. Feels a lot less like "pay to win".

I can only imagine what went down at the studio this past week to garner this response, but it's obvious that there are some growing pains inside Bungie and needing to communicate with a fanbase this large. I also appreciate Luke's letter -- it reads sincerely and above-the-board, which is what was needed.

As for myself, I'll keep my physical Collector's Edition for Xbox, and I'll convert my PS4 order to be Digital (+ Digital Collector's if I really like what I see over on Xbox).

And finally, that Year 1 stuff looks slick. :)

Good job Deej and Luke (and everyone else at Bungie who's had to deal with this).

While I didn't need an explanation/apology from Luke I know some people did. Very classy sir.

That year 1 shader looks tight! Now I don't even care about blacksmith or whatever is being handed out all the time this past week!

Can't wait for part 2!

It's also a LOT of money for the digital stuff alone. The digital upgrade pack costs the same as the difference between the Legendary pack and the CE ($20), but without all the physical goodies?

But it's a start, I guess.

...you're throwing money at your screen.

;-)

You can smell the damage control.

Twenty dollars for day 1 cosmetics, though? Seems way expensive, even if we charge a bit higher for the exotics.

"It's totally unfair that we can't get the stuff in the Collector's edition without spending $80!"

"Okay, we've decided to sell the digital stuff everyone says was the part they really wanted, for $20."

"That's way too much money!"

If the price they're charging is more than you're willing to spend, don't buy it. They're giving fans what we yelled about - a way to buy just the digital bits that come with the most expensive edition, without having to buy all the stuff we already have. It's priced at EXACTLY the difference between the Legendary edition (which comes with the base game and all 3 expansions) and the Digital Collectors Edition (which includes all that stuff, plus what's in this package) - how is that not fair?

It's not that much anyway. But it feels like too much to be paying for 9 cosmetic items, especially when the original pack had those cosmetics plus other stuff for the "same" price increase.

At least the option is being given. Options are good.

It's priced at EXACTLY the difference between the Legendary edition (which comes with the base game and all 3 expansions) and the Digital Collectors Edition (which includes all that stuff, plus what's in this package) - how is that not fair?

It doesn't come with the physical stuff. I mean obviously you can't get the physical stuff with a digital upgrade, but you are paying the same for less.

As I've said - I'm not hugely upset. People have more options now, and that's good.

Side note: I'd probably leap on a $25-30 physical upgrade package. It'd still work out cheaper than the CE, even though you'd be paying more for the additional content.

It's priced at EXACTLY the difference between the Legendary edition (which comes with the base game and all 3 expansions) and the Digital Collectors Edition (which includes all that stuff, plus what's in this package) - how is that not fair?

It doesn't come with the physical stuff. I mean obviously you can't get the physical stuff with a digital upgrade, but you are paying the same for less.

The only physical stuff is a DVD with the game on it. I have one of those for my PS4, and I wish I didn't. (I have only a digital copy on my Xbox 360/XB1, and I'm much, much happier.)

I'd be happy to mail you a blank DVD if you want. ;)

I didn't spot that you were talking about the Digital CE. The price difference is $20 between the Legendary and physical CE usn't it? Is the digital CE the same price as the physical? That seems weird *shrug*.

Edit: Would still pay for CE Upgrade package. I want a book that's been scribbled in by a robot Unicorn.

Edit: Would still pay for CE Upgrade package. I want a book that's been scribbled in by a robot Unicorn.

I think you mean robo-Fillion. :P

I didn't spot that you were talking about the Digital CE. The price difference is $20 between the Legendary and physical CE usn't it? Is the digital CE the same price as the physical? That seems weird *shrug*.

Yes, that seems weird, since the physical CE has all sorts of real stuff that the digital one doesn't have (steelbook case, treasure island book, strange coin, collection of relics and artifacts, weapon schematic...).

But yes, they're the same price.

Edit: Would still pay for CE Upgrade package. I want a book that's been scribbled in by a robot Unicorn.

Me too. ;)

Edit: Would still pay for CE Upgrade package. I want a book that's been scribbled in by a robot Unicorn.

I think you mean robo-Fillion. :P

Exactly. Gimme!

It's also a LOT of money for the digital stuff alone. The digital upgrade pack costs the same as the difference between the Legendary pack and the CE ($20), but without all the physical goodies?

But it's a start, I guess.

I agree that it seems like a silly amount for cosmetics, but $20 is not out of the ordinary these days. For example, there are lots of Heroes of the Storm heroes (blizzard) for $10 each. Granted, the base game is free, but still.

Better get packing! See you when we have flying cars!

I love Taylor Swift.

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Better get packing! See you when we have flying cars!

I honestly did not expect it to happen a day after I made the post. I'll pack up once this is up on the psn store. Until then I quest for a Hawkmoon. This fucking sucks bungie.

I mean, Avril's a poet. Listen to this.

"He was a skater boy, she said see you later, boy."

Wow.

"Hey hey you you I don't like your girlfriend. No way no way I think you need a new one."

My god.

And of course, this one.

People should study her work in English class.

I mean, Avril's a poet. Listen to this.

"He was a skater boy, she said see you later, boy."

Wow.

"Hey hey you you I don't like your girlfriend. No way no way I think you need a new one."

My god.

And of course, this one.

People should study her work in English class.

If you think avril is a poet, you should listen to Ke$ha!

If the price they're charging is more than you're willing to spend, don't buy it. They're giving fans what we yelled about - a way to buy just the digital bits that come with the most expensive edition, without having to buy all the stuff we already have. It's priced at EXACTLY the difference between the Legendary edition (which comes with the base game and all 3 expansions) and the Digital Collectors Edition (which includes all that stuff, plus what's in this package) - how is that not fair?

This goes right back to what I've been talking about with the $40 and $20 in the other thread, though. I totally get your point here, and I don't think you're wrong. I've been trying to discuss Activision's pricing schemes in relation to other games or even compared to Destiny's own content. How is digital content that mostly appears to be cosmetic somehow worth (in the market, not your own personal subjective idea of worth) the same cost as a DLC expansion like House of Wolves or Dark Below? I think that's the problem people are now seeing with this new $20 price point. Right back to that other thread, what I've been saying is that the pricing doesn't appear to make sense at all in relation to other prices that Activision is charging for Destiny.

I think we all knew what you meant, bullshit like horse armor. You don't need to leave to save face.

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Even if it were less it'd still open the floodgates for more microtransactions just like this did. People are going to pay and buy this. There will be more like this. And it will get worse and worse.

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I really do think this is the beginning of the end though. After people buy this how will there NOT be more down the line? It's not hyperbole. If this isn't rejected the future of Destiny is going to have even more bullshit than it does now.

If the price they're charging is more than you're willing to spend, don't buy it. They're giving fans what we yelled about - a way to buy just the digital bits that come with the most expensive edition, without having to buy all the stuff we already have. It's priced at EXACTLY the difference between the Legendary edition (which comes with the base game and all 3 expansions) and the Digital Collectors Edition (which includes all that stuff, plus what's in this package) - how is that not fair?

This goes right back to what I've been talking about with the $40 and $20 in the other thread, though. I totally get your point here, and I don't think you're wrong. I've been trying to discuss Activision's pricing schemes in relation to other games or even compared to Destiny's own content. How is digital content that mostly appears to be cosmetic somehow worth (in the market, not your own personal subjective idea of worth) the same cost as a DLC expansion like House of Wolves or Dark Below? I think that's the problem people are now seeing with this new $20 price point. Right back to that other thread, what I've been saying is that the pricing doesn't appear to make sense at all in relation to other prices that Activision is charging for Destiny.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'in the market, not [my] own personal subjective idea of worth' - something is worth whatever someone says they're willing to pay for it. That's the DEFINITION of market value, in fact.

In this case, they've already set a price point for the game+all expansions ($60) and a price point for the game, all expansions, and this digital collection of goodies ($80) - so pricing the goodies ANYWHERE below $20 would mean cannibalizing sales of products they'd already announced. They priced this exactly where their current pricing scheme requires it be priced.

::shrug::

$20 is not out of the ordinary these days. For example, there are lots of Heroes of the Storm heroes (blizzard) for $10 each. Granted, the base game is free, but still.

It's a fallacious line of thinking, but it's definitely a sensible one. Give them an inch and they take a mile, etc.

However, it doesn't have to work that way. Bungie does have principles. In much the same way a vegan might be coaxed to eat eggs from pet chickens (no harm to the chickens who have a good life) Bungie can, for enough dough, be convinced to do this kind of stuff. There is a reason we think it is close but not quite there. It's not there. There's just something SLIGHTLY more palatable about this than just selling that dumb crap a la carte.

People can skirt around what they think is awful money grubbing and never resort to actually doing it. So remember, no matter how lame Activision is here, Jason Jones PROBABLY wouldn't let horse armor happen, but can rationalize this kind of promotion.

Don't worry about it.

$20 is not out of the ordinary these days. For example, there are lots of Heroes of the Storm heroes (blizzard) for $10 each. Granted, the base game is free, but still.

Yes, and it doesn't reflect well on Bungievision when you think about it. HotS (and other free to plays) charges because they don't charge for the game. Destiny asks for a large up front payment and a pretty hefty cosmetic payment.

We will see who is right down the line. In this case is love to be wrong. Bungie does not have principles anymore. If they did, Destiny would look very different.

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I'm not sure what you mean by 'in the market, not [my] own personal subjective idea of worth' - something is worth whatever someone says they're willing to pay for it. That's the DEFINITION of market value, in fact.

I think this is all me poorly expressing the idea I'm trying to describe, and I'm sorry for that. It makes sense in my head, but I'm not doing a good job of wording it or something. I'm trying to directly refer to the set price that Activision has decided upon, regardless of who was going to potentially buy it or not, and how people are then viewing these set prices in relation to one another. Prior to Destiny even launching, and prior to it even going up for pre-order, somewhere at some time, Activision's plan was a $60 base game, $20 DLC packs (pre-orders dropping one to $15), and (based on that leaked thing) a more expensive Comet pack (which we now see is $40). So to get to you below...

In this case, they've already set a price point for the game+all expansions ($60) and a price point for the game, all expansions, and this digital collection of goodies ($80) - so pricing the goodies ANYWHERE below $20 would mean cannibalizing sales of products they'd already announced. They priced this exactly where their current pricing scheme requires it be priced.

I think you're spot on here, and yet it comes off looking weird. Activision had this $60 price point for one thing in their minds, and then went with $80 to justify what appears to be extra digital content and physical items. This has caused a problem throughout all the lands apparently, which leads them to go with the $20 upgrade for digital content to try and calm the fires, right?

So compared to the $60 bundle that jams a $40 Taken King upgrade with a $20 base game and double DLCs (that each cost $20 on their own, give or take $5 depending upon "season pass"), all of a sudden it looks like three specific class emotes, three armor shaders, and three exotic class items with XP bonuses translate to the same $20 price of a single DLC, or to a base game and two DLCs in a sort-of GOTY edition.

Again, I think you're completely right on how they came up with this current pricing scheme, and I think it absolutely fits where their current pricing scheme requires it to be priced, but now people are looking at it in comparison to everything else with a similar breakdown of what I just said above and realizing that it's really wonky.

Now personally, I'm not even on the fence. I've been ready to drop my $40 for Taken King the entire time (don't care about the extra swags and such). At the same time, the pricing that Activision has offered for its different versions has looked pretty whack, and I've been trying to get at that. I outright said it looked like a fuck you to people who bought stuff previously. That may be heavy handed, and of course that's just my opinion, but a lot of this pricing just looks totally off.

Edit: Hopefully I conveyed where I'm coming from better. Sorry if I'm still failing!

Is it a positive that she wrote those lyrics or a negative? I mean, many "artists" these days don't even do that.

So, what just happened, is that people demanded to be able to pay $20 for some new dance moves and armor, and now they can? Huh? That's the huge victory here?

Why anyone cared about this at all, let alone coalescing a directed firestorm of rage, will remain a source of confusion to me. I'm not sure I've ever had this same experience where I read about some pricing points and thought, "yeah that seems reasonable," and then had a bunch of other people react with such...passion.

I suppose I'm too laissez faire, but in my mind Bungie and Activision have the right to price their work as they please. If the market bears it - meaning people purchase at those price points - then it's a fair price. If not, then it's priced itoo high, and they have to decide how to adjust.

You're mostly right... the whole thing is kinda silly, but there were (and still are) some legitimate sticking points that people were upset about:

1. Us gamers like collecting all the things and the only way to get those armor shaders and whatever else was to buy content we already owned. More specifically, the special bonus extras only came with the Legendary or Collector editions which both included full version of Destiny itself. It's pretty natural to want a way to collect the bonus items without also being forced to rebuy the game already sitting on/in our consoles.

This has been more or less solved by allowing those who want it to spend $20 on those digital collectors items. Is $20 too much for a few emotes and items and shaders? Eh. That's up to you to decide for yourself, but it gives people a way to not rebuy stuff they already own...

2. Unless I'm mistaken, the digital and physical version of the Collector's edition are both $80 while one comes with lots of neat physical stuff and the other doesn't... It's kinda odd that Bungie can ship us a book and a Strange Coin and other physical things for the same price we can by a digital version of the game that doesn't include any physical things.

People were less angry over this... overall... and it remains and probably will remain unchanged.

Now I want a flippin horse in Destiny! Damn you Funk.

is about as silly as Funk's proposition of mounting redeemable codes on the wall. If anyone wants to collect things, then I would suggest collecting real things. They should really rename the digital collectors edition to something that better describes what it really is. Digital Special Edition?

I don't really get the whole space cowboy genre, but it would be fun to have more mount options than the speeder. How about a hoverboard? Or a jet pack? Or an atv? I don't know... I lost my steam after hoverboard.

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I mean, she's a shitty lyricist, but we know that, in general, her records are what she wants because of her creative control and how much she does put into her songs.

The first bit of this video is about how she and Dr. Luke went through and did I Can Do Better, a bad song from her 3rd album, so you can see how much of it she really does. In another part of the video, you can see her coming up with a genuinely awful lyric while wasted "I will drink as much limoncello as I can, and I'll do it again and again," and loving it. It made it into the song. Anyway, once you get a feeling of what she does, you don't have to watch any more.

EXCEPT you should totally skip to 8:33 to hear her nail a vocal track then yell "I'm so hammered!"

Is this the best for the quality of her songs? Well, I don't know. Sometimes on the ones where she has a lot of lyric help (like the ones she wrote with Butch Walker for her second record) they come out as stronger songs.

However, on her fourth album, a lot of the songs were done by her exclusively, with collaboration kept to a minimum and I think the record is stronger for that. Indeed, my favourite songs and lyrics from that are the ones she did by herself or with Evan Taubenfeld, her old friend and first guitar player for her band...and Evan has said she uses him for a sounding board more than anything.

But something else to keep in mind is that she is just singing a bunch of dumb pop bullshit. It's not supposed to have some kind of huge point or anything, but either make you feel what Avril is feeling (which can be done with simple, easily relatable lyrics), or to get stuck in your head.

Girlfriend, for example, is a get stuck in your head song.
My Happy Ending, as another example, is a make you feel anger and rage after a breakup song, like Avril was feeling.

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Anything other than a speeder would do. Wheeled or treaded vehicles. Unicorn, velociraptor, robot wolf :)

I really really wish there weren't vehicles of any kinda at all. All foot combat all day long. It makes the world seem more expansive when you have to walk it.

Anything other than a speeder would do. Wheeled or treaded vehicles. Unicorn, velociraptor, robot wolf :)

I really really wish there weren't vehicles of any kinda at all. All foot combat all day long. It makes the world seem more expansive when you have to walk it.

While the walking sounds fun, I think I want a vehicle with wheels and treads that has the head of a unicorn but the mouth of a robot wolf, and the body of a velociraptor. I'd never want to walk anywhere again.

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Ishtar Animal Farm.

Where all the finest Golden Age biological advancement and experimentation took place.

That's …way more information about averil than I expected to read in this thread.

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It's also helpful that they're talking about the fact that it's not JUST the exclusive class items that will have stats and perks; other class items will be similarly endowed. Feels a lot less like "pay to win".

Yeah. If anything, I suspect the exclusive class items will be used minimally by those who have them (probably just to level up a character or item faster), since it sounds like the other class items will have actual stat effects. I'm making an assumption here that those exclusive items will ONLY do XP boosts, not that + stat boosts.

I can only imagine what went down at the studio this past week to garner this response, but it's obvious that there are some growing pains inside Bungie and needing to communicate with a fanbase this large. I also appreciate Luke's letter -- it reads sincerely and above-the-board, which is what was needed.

I still don't think it was all that bad. But I guess my opinion doesn't matter, as far as what Bungie needed to do about it. Whether or not the intensity of the community reaction was appropriate, folks were up in arms to a degree that required a response.

And finally, that Year 1 stuff looks slick. :)

Tiger Man lives!

You know, the odd thing is that although the sparrows look like they're hovering and are propelled by rockets/thrusters, in a lot of ways their actual driving dynamics behave like wheeled (or tracked) vehicles.

Try this: get a sparrow to pop straight up in the air, or spawn one as you're falling straight down. It's important to have little or no forward momentum, just be falling straight down. Now, hit the boost as you're falling, and keep holding it. You'll notice the sparrow doesn't actually start moving forward until it touches the ground.

Yep. Or go off a jump at speed and turn to point in a different direction before you hit the ground and you don't actually change direction until you do hit the ground. A Halo Ghost could redirect a bit even in midair... I think...

Edit... And it looks like we pulled a Taylor Swift everyone!

Side note: I'm glad that got as much attention as it did. She's rolling in money (live shows bring in much more money than album sales or streaming) and really didn't have to care one way or the other. It would be unrealistic to think she has nothing to gain, but it's likely pocket change by comparison. The policy change is going to mean WAY more to small-time artists.

Yep. Or go off a jump at speed and turn to point in a different direction before you hit the ground and you don't actually change direction until you do hit the ground.

Also true! Part of me wonders if they built some of the physics for wheeled vehicles originally, and switched to the hovering sparrow design later. Or maybe they just thought this way would be easier for people to get used to (even if it doesn't make logical sense).

...I actually thought horse armor was reasonably priced and greatly enjoyed the look of it.

*prepares to be executed*

Music that's actually made by the person whose name is on it will always have value in my eyes, even if it's not my type of music.

It's a fallacious line of thinking

Not really. "Slippery slope fallacy" became a term because of people suggesting "X will lead to Y" when there's no particular reason to believe that X will lead to Y. But there's nothing fallacious in general about slippery slope arguments.

To suggest that successful sales on progression systems and microtransaction policies could lead to... more aggressive progression systems and microtransaction policies is pretty well backed-up by the last several decades of changes within the games industry. Things aren't necessarily going to go that way, but the probability is quite significant. And there's very clear incentive for it, for publishers.

We will see who is right down the line. In this case is love to be wrong. Bungie does not have principles anymore. If they did, Destiny would look very different.

Yes no principles at all. *Said right after they apologized to the community and gave them what they wanted*

It's also a LOT of money for the digital stuff alone. The digital upgrade pack costs the same as the difference between the Legendary pack and the CE ($20), but without all the physical goodies?

Digital CE costs $80 also (the one pricing point I DID have an issue with), they are literally giving people the option to upgrade to Digital CE without having to buy the original game + expansions.

I'm reading a few of people complaining about the fact that the "upgrade" price to get the Collector's Edition content is $20. Just to be clear, this is, and has always been, the price of this content. Digital Collector's Edition and the physical Collector's Edition BOTH cost $80 (Which I've stated a few times was the only part of the pricing for The Taken King that bothered me). The physical CE (which for some reason is a Gamestop exclusive in the US) basically comes with a bunch of free physical loot. If they had charged anything less than $20 then a lot of people who already pre-ordered the Digital CE would be screwed out of money that they could not get back. We'll have to wait and see about the people who did that but already owned Destiny and the expansions as they say they will have info for them soon.

My quest for getting hawkmoon before Cody starts when those PS exclusives hit xbox

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In much the same way you could probably talk about the goings on of Bungie from 2002-2011 maybe, I can talk with authority about Avril Lavigne from this time period.

I'm friends with some of her friends, she knows (or at least knew years ago) who I am, and I have been following her closely for years, in a non stalker way :P. A concert buddy of mine started Avrilbandaids.com, which was for a time the largest English speaking music fansite online. It achieved a kind of bungie.org level of officially unofficial with Avril, to the point where she would sometimes promote avrilbandaids instead of her own website, and run contests on Bandaids. It is now defunct.

For me, I'm more of an Avril fan than a Bungie fan (though the two aren't comparable). I mean, I don't have the Marathon logo tattooed on my arm.

Everything has its own fan community, with its own levels of obsession and its own schisms and personalities.

That's how I know that stuff.

I just assumed since the physical one is Gamestop exclusive or what not they financed the physical stuff so it had no additional cost to increase their attachment rates. Same logic I gave to the Red Bull deal. That the content exists in part due to that provider. Not hat I know the contracts, just that's what seemed reasonable to me.

My quest for getting hawkmoon before Cody starts when those PS exclusives hit xbox

Rooting for you. I promised Cody long ago that I'd shard mine as soon as he got his. From the looks of things, he'll be quitting Destiny before he gets one.

I'm pissed that Luke, or Bungie, felt that he needed to apologize for that interview. To suggest that he doesn't care about long time fans, when he himself is a long time fan and avid player of Destiny, is nothing more than whining and scape-goating. Yes, the pricing model for TTK was a bit butts, but [and I hate to side with Cody] introducing a large micro (macro?) transaction into the game is a worse step. I hope this doesn't open the door for more.

If people (most of whom are not on this forum, most of the conversation here wasn't that bad) can stop moaning about how mistreated they are the gaming community might be a much nicer place. If interviewers could stop attacking devs about pricing models that they likely have little influence over then reading their artciles might become pleasant.

Luke shouldn't apologize; Activision, and whoever at Bungie is involved in pricing, should get their ass down to the Bungie blog and apologize for their shitty pricing model. And frankly they should apologize for charging an absurd $20 for these digital items as well. The price of HoW for this stuff? This is the kind of stuff that we as a community should be rankled by, not by snarky interviews. I hope that Luke doesn't change his attitude based on this backlash.

And finally, that Year 1 stuff looks slick. :)

Tiger Man lives!

Finally, an emblem for my Titan!

And finally, that Year 1 stuff looks slick. :)

Tiger Man lives!

Finally, an emblem for my Titan!

Just noticing the black on black tiger stripes, new shader is literally your gamertag.

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You made me come back and check. Damn you, banana. Damn you.

I'm pissed that Luke, or Bungie, felt that he needed to apologize for that interview. To suggest that he doesn't care about long time fans, when he himself is a long time fan and avid player of Destiny, is nothing more than whining and scape-goating. Yes, the pricing model for TTK was a bit butts, but [and I hate to side with Cody] introducing a large micro (macro?) transaction into the game is a worse step. I hope this doesn't open the door for more.

If people (most of whom are not on this forum, most of the conversation here wasn't that bad) can stop moaning about how mistreated they are the gaming community might be a much nicer place. If interviewers could stop attacking devs about pricing models that they likely have little influence over then reading their artciles might become pleasant.

Luke shouldn't apologize; Activision, and whoever at Bungie is involved in pricing, should get their ass down to the Bungie blog and apologize for their shitty pricing model. And frankly they should apologize for charging an absurd $20 for these digital items as well. The price of HoW for this stuff? This is the kind of stuff that we as a community should be rankled by, not by snarky interviews. I hope that Luke doesn't change his attitude based on this backlash.

I don't see Luke changing. I hope they don't hide him away now. He's great, and I say that as someone who wasn't his biggest fan when he first got to Bungie.

I have similar feelings as you do about all this, but that said, the apology was note perfect. Luke did not deny who he is or excuse who he is. He put himself in the shoes of someone who was hearing his words not as Luke being Luke but as a developer at Bungie representing Bungie.

I believe honesty wins the day regardless, and I hope the powers that be at Bungie see that. Luke is a truth teller and ultimately that trumps polish.

Some of them just happen to play video games.

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I really really wish there weren't vehicles of any kinda at all. All foot combat all day long. It makes the world seem more expansive when you have to walk it.

You say that now but... I started playing borderlands the pre-sequel and holy balls do I wish I could use a sparrow in that game. You do nothing but walk half the time at the beginning! It so true of a lot of RPG games. They tried to fix it with waypoints that you could warp to, but why wait for a loading screen when you can magically make a vehicle appear and do tricks on the way?

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There is absolutely no way on earth that class items and a couple of emotes are worth more than 10 quest chains. Destiny with both of its current expansions only includes about that many quests!

You're paying the full cost of an expansion, which included lots of class items and shaders, raised the level cap, had a raid or PoE, added ToO, new maps... There's no goddamn way I'm paying $20 for some class items and shaders alone. No. Way.

There is absolutely no way on earth that class items and a couple of emotes are worth more than 10 quest chains. Destiny with both of its current expansions only includes about that many quests!

For me, and for you, that's not $20. But plenty of people were upset because they couldn't just buy these, and they'll probably pay the $20.

You're paying the full cost of an expansion, which included lots of class items and shaders, raised the level cap, had a raid or PoE, added ToO, new maps... There's no goddamn way I'm paying $20 for some class items and shaders alone. No. Way.

And that's totally fine that you are drawing that line in the sand. I full support that.

But I also hope that you won't get mad - or even pass judgment - when I do spend the $20 for the class items, shaders, and emotes.

I'm just making sure everyone has context.

You're paying the full cost of an expansion, which included lots of class items and shaders, raised the level cap, had a raid or PoE, added ToO, new maps... There's no goddamn way I'm paying $20 for some class items and shaders alone. No. Way.

And that's totally fine that you are drawing that line in the sand. I full support that.

But I also hope that you won't get mad - or even pass judgment - when I do spend the $20 for the class items, shaders, and emotes.

I mean, by buying it you are endorsing the behavior. I can't get mad, but I can pass judgement.

You're paying the full cost of an expansion, which included lots of class items and shaders, raised the level cap, had a raid or PoE, added ToO, new maps... There's no goddamn way I'm paying $20 for some class items and shaders alone. No. Way.

And that's totally fine that you are drawing that line in the sand. I full support that.

But I also hope that you won't get mad - or even pass judgment - when I do spend the $20 for the class items, shaders, and emotes.

I mean, by buying it you are endorsing the behavior. I can't get mad, but I can pass judgement.

People can not stop from judging people. What people have, is the choice to condemn people or not.

... that is a little unique in the journalism side at least - which I just noticed when Monochron said:

If interviewers could stop attacking devs about pricing models that they likely have little influence over then reading their articles might become pleasant.

Compare that to comic book journalism, which isn't necessarily any better in general, but is a little different in this specific aspect. As in, I don't think I've ever read an article or interview with a writer or artist where the journalist throws them over the coals because Marvel or DC increased the price of their comic or the fact that there are ads in the middle of the art. It's just a known that the authors are in no way responsible for or even have a say in the stuff the big publishers do, so there's no point in grilling them about it.

... that is a little unique in the journalism side at least - which I just noticed when Monochron said:

If interviewers could stop attacking devs about pricing models that they likely have little influence over then reading their articles might become pleasant.

Compare that to comic book journalism, which isn't necessarily any better in general, but is a little different in this specific aspect. As in, I don't think I've ever read an article or interview with a writer or artist where the journalist throws them over the coals because Marvel or DC increased the price of their comic or the fact that there are ads in the middle of the art. It's just a known that the authors are in no way responsible for or even have a say in the stuff the big publishers do, so there's no point in grilling them about it.

This is a good point.

I think part of the blame comes from how little most people know about how the video game industry works. Even when I worked in it, many of the employees had confusing job titles that did not at all match their skillset, pay grade, or responsibilities. Take these two guys whom I worked with: Both were Associate Producers. One of them was responsible for setting up and installing every single dev kit in the building, he "hired" the interns, he fixed broken machines, and he assigned people to their workstations or offices. He was really functioning like a hybrid Producer / IT technician / Coordinator. The other guy with the Associate Producer had one job only: He bought and set up buffet lunches. That was it. He was our lunch lady. And these guys got the same title and credit in the games we worked on! This sort of job description confusion is commonplace in the industry (at least at the places I worked, such as EA and Activision). So you get in a habit of just asking people who seem authoritative, whether or not it's actually their job, and those people get in the habit of answering because they don't really know if that's something they're responsible for or not.

Now I'm going to say something crazy: Just like Cody knows he could make a better video game for $300M, I know I could run a company better than the way these major corps are doing it, at least in terms of efficiency, employee satisfaction, and product quality. I would certainly not be making the shareholders as happy (though I would pay quarterly dividends instead of only stockpiling my cash reserves... I'm looking at you, Apple). Since shareholders hire CEOs, well, that's why I don't run the place.

Luke shouldn't apologize; Activision, and whoever at Bungie is involved in pricing, should get their ass down to the Bungie blog and apologize for their shitty pricing model. And frankly they should apologize for charging an absurd $20 for these digital items as well. The price of HoW for this stuff? This is the kind of stuff that we as a community should be rankled by, not by snarky interviews. I hope that Luke doesn't change his attitude based on this backlash.

I never actually had a problem with Luke's behavior in the interview. I thought he was fine. The primary issue that I had was with the placement of the dance emote behind the $40 paywall, which had nothing to do with Luke.

Which probably had nothing to do with Bungie.

Which probably had mostly to do with Activision.

I actually feel Luke's been treated unfairly, and I hope he doesn't feel t0o bad and doesn't catch any more grief.

I will speak of dance emotes, forever no more.

The update is up!

Right Here

Edit... And it looks like we pulled a Taylor Swift everyone!

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People are ignorant and therefore act like assholes. (Their understanding coming from fragmentary knowledge they glean from other ignorant people [or one biased article] on the internet.)

What might be worse are people who know a little more than average and extrapolate that they know everything.

Eh? Apple pays dividends... Has since 2012. And Apple doesn't only stockpile cash. They use their cash reserves in very neat strategic ways that have given them real advantages in their supply chain. Things like buying up significant amounts of the world's total output of flash memory a few years back, or paying to buy up every last machine capable of doing something new so they could both do that new thing and deny their competitors the ability quickly follow them.

Well, capitulation is often found when people give up principles. Just saying…

Well, capitulation is often found when people give up principles. Just saying…

Only when that goes against what the previously stood for.

Nono. As someone with Logic and Philosophy degrees, it's a formal fallacy.

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People are ignorant and therefore act like assholes. (Their understanding coming from fragmentary knowledge they glean from other ignorant people [or one biased article] on the internet.)

What might be worse are people who know a little more than average and extrapolate that they know everything.

So if you can't rely on reporters or your own experience, what can you rely on?

People are ignorant and therefore act like assholes. (Their understanding coming from fragmentary knowledge they glean from other ignorant people [or one biased article] on the internet.)

What might be worse are people who know a little more than average and extrapolate that they know everything.

So if you can't rely on reporters or your own experience, what can you rely on?

Your ability to learn and get smarter about the things you do? Not sure what you are getting at.

People are ignorant and therefore act like assholes. (Their understanding coming from fragmentary knowledge they glean from other ignorant people [or one biased article] on the internet.)

What might be worse are people who know a little more than average and extrapolate that they know everything.

So if you can't rely on reporters or your own experience, what can you rely on?

Your ability to learn and get smarter about the things you do? Not sure what you are getting at.

Now I'm confused. I took Kermit's response to mean that he thinks I know only a little more than an average person, I'm acting like I know everything, and am therefore not to be taken at value. I happen to think that my 13 years of experience in the games business is worth something. He also said that information coming from articles is biased, and is therefore also not to be trusted. So I want to know what sort of thing he would actually trust.

Maybe I misunderstood and he's saying that it doesn't matter what I say because other people are just going to act like assholes. I hadn't gotten that from his post, but your response makes me wonder if I should have taken it that way. I don't know.

Regardless, your ability to learn and get smarter at the things you do is pretty much the definition of experience, right? So it would seem Kermit is saying you can't rely on that.

Nono. As someone with Logic and Philosophy degrees, it's a formal fallacy.

Yep.

It can be a sensible argument, at times, but the structure of it is never a logical one. It just doesn't actually follow from premises, right?

Of course, dismissing an argument as slippery slope, and thus fallacious, out of hand, (not that it happened here) is itself a fallacy. Such an argument can have a correct conclusion, even with bad reasoning.

Still not seeing what's wrong with "Here's content that you can buy, for money. You don't have to buy it, and it doesn't offer any serious advantages over those who don't buy it."

I get that it's a business model that charges too much for too little, probably, but if people willingly buy it anyways... ?????

I'm not seeing a problem?

What is the issue? Artistic integrity? Or is it somehow a leech on creativity, or something?

And why are you so convinced it's coming as a definite possibility?