As fun as interviews from diehard fans can be, sometimes an interview with someone who is a little more grounded about Destiny is an even better read. I especially enjoyed this interview with Metro. Improving the way we get loot has been emphasized by both Lukes a number of times in interviews but I love the way Timmins puts it here:

And so The Taken King, we’re absolutely looking to make substantial improvements across the board, in all of these areas, including storytelling. And the player stories, we think those can be better too, and one of the ways is we want to reward players for their deeds. We want you to be earning loot out in the world by killing monsters, not necessarily saving up your money and buying something from a vendor. Saving up money and going shopping, that’s not the fantasy you have about being a space knight and saving the universe!

Full interview

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And so The Taken King, we’re absolutely looking to make substantial improvements across the board, in all of these areas, including storytelling. And the player stories, we think those can be better too, and one of the ways is we want to reward players for their deeds. We want you to be earning loot out in the world by killing monsters, not necessarily saving up your money and buying something from a vendor. Saving up money and going shopping, that’s not the fantasy you have about being a space knight and saving the universe!

So does this also mean no rng? Because winning a lottery and being given an exotic doesn't strike me as much of a universe saving fantasy either. I'd of course love for every weapon to be obtainable by specific ways. The only downside is I'll never be able to buy Hawkmoon.

Here's a TL;DR of the interview for you:

Interviewer: I'm a huge fanboy
Luke: Thanks, me too.

Interviewer: Even though people play Destiny for hundreds of hours, everyone complains about it.
Luke: We are fully in touch with people's complaints.

Interviewer: Okay, so here's a complaint: Destiny's gameplay is really lacking.
Luke: This game is visceral, in your face, fun!

Interviewer: Here's another complaint: The game introduces factions like the Awoken but never explains who they are or why they matter or any of that.
Luke: In 80 years, you'll remember the epic tale of how you got Gjallerhorn, but not who the Awoken are.

Interviewer: Why is there no plot in Destiny?
Luke: Mahyem is a good pvp mode.

Interviewer: Destiny is really bad at things that Halo was good at, like the AI.
Luke: They're basically the same.

--

Just... Ugh. Thanks for not answering anything, not addressing the issues, ignoring the questions, and cementing that I'll not be buying TTK.

And so The Taken King, we’re absolutely looking to make substantial improvements across the board, in all of these areas, including storytelling. And the player stories, we think those can be better too, and one of the ways is we want to reward players for their deeds. We want you to be earning loot out in the world by killing monsters, not necessarily saving up your money and buying something from a vendor. Saving up money and going shopping, that’s not the fantasy you have about being a space knight and saving the universe!

So does this also mean no rng? Because winning a lottery and being given an exotic doesn't strike me as much of a universe saving fantasy either. I'd of course love for every weapon to be obtainable by specific ways. The only downside is I'll never be able to buy Hawkmoon.

My takeaway from this is that it means more RNG, not less. They want to remove your ability to buy upgrades from a vendor, which means you're only getting loot from drops or quest/bounty/strike rewards. Right now, vendors are pretty much the only guaranteed path to upgrades.

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And so The Taken King, we’re absolutely looking to make substantial improvements across the board, in all of these areas, including storytelling. And the player stories, we think those can be better too, and one of the ways is we want to reward players for their deeds. We want you to be earning loot out in the world by killing monsters, not necessarily saving up your money and buying something from a vendor. Saving up money and going shopping, that’s not the fantasy you have about being a space knight and saving the universe!

So does this also mean no rng? Because winning a lottery and being given an exotic doesn't strike me as much of a universe saving fantasy either. I'd of course love for every weapon to be obtainable by specific ways. The only downside is I'll never be able to buy Hawkmoon.

My takeaway from this is that it means more RNG, not less. They want to remove your ability to buy upgrades from a vendor, which means you're only getting loot from drops or quest/bounty/strike rewards. Right now, vendors are pretty much the only guaranteed path to upgrades.

I think that what they mean by this is there will either more possibilities for RNG, that RNG will be more forgiving or both.

However, it's somewhat true. There were a lot of questions that really didn't give a good answer for. The information was good. But it wasn't exactly Q&A.

And so The Taken King, we’re absolutely looking to make substantial improvements across the board, in all of these areas, including storytelling. And the player stories, we think those can be better too, and one of the ways is we want to reward players for their deeds. We want you to be earning loot out in the world by killing monsters, not necessarily saving up your money and buying something from a vendor. Saving up money and going shopping, that’s not the fantasy you have about being a space knight and saving the universe!

So does this also mean no rng? Because winning a lottery and being given an exotic doesn't strike me as much of a universe saving fantasy either. I'd of course love for every weapon to be obtainable by specific ways. The only downside is I'll never be able to buy Hawkmoon.

My takeaway from this is that it means more RNG, not less. They want to remove your ability to buy upgrades from a vendor, which means you're only getting loot from drops or quest/bounty/strike rewards. Right now, vendors are pretty much the only guaranteed path to upgrades.

I think that what they mean by this is there will either more possibilities for RNG, that RNG will be more forgiving or both.

Or, as has been hinted at by Luke Smith, there will be dedicated ways to get gear.

However, it's somewhat true. There were a lot of questions that really didn't give a good answer for. The information was good. But it wasn't exactly Q&A.

That's not really what these interviews are EVER about, we read these to glean attitudes and small details about future content they hadn't mentioned, not to address every concern we ever have about a game. That's not how game journalism OR game development work.

However, it's somewhat true. There were a lot of questions that really didn't give a good answer for. The information was good. But it wasn't exactly Q&A.

That's not really what these interviews are EVER about, we read these to glean attitudes and small details about future content they hadn't mentioned, not to address every concern we ever have about a game. That's not how game journalism OR game development work.

Yeah, but generally when someone asks you a question, you try to answer it, but then move to a different topic. It seemed Like Luke just flat out started talking about something else :-)

He even answers that way when he can talk about the topic half the time!

Interviewer: Even though people play Destiny for hundreds of hours, everyone complains about it.
Luke: We are fully in touch with people's complaints.

Except, he didn't say that in the least. At one point he said: "I would say we are absolutely proud of what we’ve accomplished with Destiny, and where we’re headed. I think we’re really bullish about the future. But at the same time we acknowledge some of the things that need to be better. And that’s what we’re trying to do. And I think the critics, and many players, call us on those things. And we’re totally trying to address those."

Interviewer: Here's another complaint: The game introduces factions like the Awoken but never explains who they are or why they matter or any of that.
Luke: In 80 years, you'll remember the epic tale of how you got Gjallerhorn, but not who the Awoken are.

Yeah, that's one I wish he'd addressed better. Destiny's story, so far, hasn't been told in the same way but we still know a lot. And it does seem that they are trying to do more in-game story stuff with TTK. Bungie, so far, hasn't really admitted that the story needed a lot more, but they have spoken about it in an "around the edges" kind of way.

Interviewer: Why is there no plot in Destiny?
Luke: Mahyem is a good pvp mode.

No. That's completely ignoring what he actually said. Read the response again. It's not about Mayhem, it's about bringing more levity and story to the forefront of Destiny. He mentions story, he mentions Eris and Zavala. Only after he answers the question about the game taking itself too seriously while not having enough plot (again, the answer was TTK will have more levity and more plot) does he talk about how Mayhem is the gameplay version of that where not every mode has to be super competitive and can instead be crazy fun sometime too.

Interviewer: Destiny is really bad at things that Halo was good at, like the AI.
Luke: They're basically the same.

And they are. There's very little units in Halo do that they don't do in Destiny. And they do things in much the same way.

What Destiny lacks is some of the unit personality that Halo had. Units can be scared and run away in Destiny, they might even be more likely to do so or be triggered to do so when a leader unit is killed, but we don't see the obvious almost over-the-top reaction of the Grunts always running away when an Elite was killed. But put Elites, Brutes, Vandals, and Acolytes in the same room, swap their model and sounds for something generic, and give them the same gun and I think it would be at least somewhat difficult to tell who was who during most of a fight.

Just thinking about it more, I think I'd be shocked if they took away guaranteed ways to get items and replaced it with even generous RNG. A huge complaint since day one has been how prevalent RNG is in Destiny, and with how good they have been at paying attention to community complaints I think it would seem a huge step backwards to everyone if they got rid of vendors completely. I'm still expecting there to BE RNG in the game, but I think they are going to try and bring it in line with how they mentioned they expected RNG to feel when the game was released: as a bonus. If they leave RNG the way it is, but add dedicated ways to get weapons and gear in The Taken King I think that would make a lot of us in the community very happy.

Just thinking about it more, I think I'd be shocked if they took away guaranteed ways to get items and replaced it with even generous RNG. A huge complaint since day one has been how prevalent RNG is in Destiny, and with how good they have been at paying attention to community complaints I think it would seem a huge step backwards to everyone if they got rid of vendors completely. I'm still expecting there to BE RNG in the game, but I think they are going to try and bring it in line with how they mentioned they expected RNG to feel when the game was released: as a bonus. If they leave RNG the way it is, but add dedicated ways to get weapons and gear in The Taken King I think that would make a lot of us in the community very happy.

I'm hoping Trials of Osiris is an indicator of where they're going. If you go flawless, you are guaranteed to get an elemental primary. Which gun and which element you get are still randomized, but you know what the possibilities are going in.

Just thinking about it more, I think I'd be shocked if they took away guaranteed ways to get items and replaced it with even generous RNG. A huge complaint since day one has been how prevalent RNG is in Destiny, and with how good they have been at paying attention to community complaints I think it would seem a huge step backwards to everyone if they got rid of vendors completely. I'm still expecting there to BE RNG in the game, but I think they are going to try and bring it in line with how they mentioned they expected RNG to feel when the game was released: as a bonus. If they leave RNG the way it is, but add dedicated ways to get weapons and gear in The Taken King I think that would make a lot of us in the community very happy.

No RNG would just in general be better for the game. It would make balance issues much easier, since you know what players would have access to in a much more certain way.

But understand that people in online games are stupid. People like Datto say 'exotics should be rare'. If he was the only person in the world playing Destiny, and couldn't get a gun because it hasn't dropped, I'm sure he'd change his tune. The real reason is because he knows he plays more than other people, and he wants to have stuff other people don't have. He directly talks about the feeling of having something rare. That means it's motivated by status. If you make it so that you can get stuff both from RNG, and from a quest line, while that would be better for the game, I guarantee you people like him would complain since they'd have nothing to be proud about.

I can just imagine it:

"I did this epic quest line that was really hard, and this joker scrub just got it in a crucible drop!"

You have to consider this in an online game. The solution is to remove RNG entirely, and make ALL gear obtainable through specific actions. There might not be any prestige left, but that's something we can do without anyway. I'd rather everybody focus on just playing the game and not showing off.

Just thinking about it more, I think I'd be shocked if they took away guaranteed ways to get items and replaced it with even generous RNG. A huge complaint since day one has been how prevalent RNG is in Destiny, and with how good they have been at paying attention to community complaints I think it would seem a huge step backwards to everyone if they got rid of vendors completely. I'm still expecting there to BE RNG in the game, but I think they are going to try and bring it in line with how they mentioned they expected RNG to feel when the game was released: as a bonus. If they leave RNG the way it is, but add dedicated ways to get weapons and gear in The Taken King I think that would make a lot of us in the community very happy.

I can just imagine, in the new raid. Instead of getting a RNG drop you are instead warped to another dimension where you meet a Vendor like Xur were you have to sell your soul for the item you want.

I think they will be adding more quest style rewards. It's not vendor, and it's not RNG, but it is a way to play.

I'd also like more procedurally generated random-ish content. Procedurally generated content can still be somewhat curated, similar to how perks on weapons are curated even though they are random.

I'd love to see a wildcard daily (that you don't know what it'll be until you get it) that picks a story mission and randomly applies some modifiers based on the level chosen. With appropriate rewards of course based on your player's level. Solo only, and make it a daily nightfall. This appeals to me probably because I play too much though. =)

Just thinking about it more, I think I'd be shocked if they took away guaranteed ways to get items and replaced it with even generous RNG. A huge complaint since day one has been how prevalent RNG is in Destiny, and with how good they have been at paying attention to community complaints I think it would seem a huge step backwards to everyone if they got rid of vendors completely. I'm still expecting there to BE RNG in the game, but I think they are going to try and bring it in line with how they mentioned they expected RNG to feel when the game was released: as a bonus. If they leave RNG the way it is, but add dedicated ways to get weapons and gear in The Taken King I think that would make a lot of us in the community very happy.

I'm hoping Trials of Osiris is an indicator of where they're going. If you go flawless, you are guaranteed to get an elemental primary. Which gun and which element you get are still randomized, but you know what the possibilities are going in.

That is incorrect. It's not randomized. It's set to give me void damage 100% of the time :-p

Remember Reach? < see what I did there, ;)

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You have to consider this in an online game. The solution is to remove RNG entirely, and make ALL gear obtainable through specific actions. There might not be any prestige left, but that's something we can do without anyway. I'd rather everybody focus on just playing the game and not showing off.

I doubt they'll do this. I agree that if someone got a Thorn randomly after someone struggled a long time to get it through the exotic quest that would bother a lot of people. Since one of the early E3 interviews (Kotaku I believe) mentioned that's where they are taking inspiration from, I would imagine we will see a significant amount of ways to get "special" gear, but that you'll still have a chance to get certain sets of gear through RNG, or through a vendor. (And I think we can mostly all agree that people that complain that they "earned" their gear through RNG when it goes on sale are being ridiculous)

Just thinking about it more, I think I'd be shocked if they took away guaranteed ways to get items and replaced it with even generous RNG. A huge complaint since day one has been how prevalent RNG is in Destiny, and with how good they have been at paying attention to community complaints I think it would seem a huge step backwards to everyone if they got rid of vendors completely. I'm still expecting there to BE RNG in the game, but I think they are going to try and bring it in line with how they mentioned they expected RNG to feel when the game was released: as a bonus...

I've always thought of it as a bonus. I think that's one of the secrets to enjoying Destiny.

I sorta agree. I like the idea of doing specific things to get specific rewards... right up until doing the things becomes too hard. I'm never going to get the ToO primaries, for instance. I still want a way to set a specific item as a goal and have everything I do slowly but surely push me towards achieving that goal. I wouldn't care if there was a six month countdown timer in addition to doing a bunch of just playing the game type stuff. To me, that's better than waiting forever with no idea if you'll ever get something you want.

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Interviewer: Even though people play Destiny for hundreds of hours, everyone complains about it.
Luke: We are fully in touch with people's complaints.

Except, he didn't say that in the least. At one point he said: "I would say we are absolutely proud of what we’ve accomplished with Destiny, and where we’re headed. I think we’re really bullish about the future. But at the same time we acknowledge some of the things that need to be better. And that’s what we’re trying to do. And I think the critics, and many players, call us on those things. And we’re totally trying to address those."

"And I think the critics, and many players, call us on those things. And we’re totally trying to address those."
Here's where he says it. He then goes on to totally deflect every question about those things that they're being called on. That's not how you totally try to address those, that's how you totally try not to address those. I included this quote to set up how blatantly he doesn't address the concerns right after he tells the interviewer that they're fully trying to address them.

Interviewer: Here's another complaint: The game introduces factions like the Awoken but never explains who they are or why they matter or any of that.
Luke: In 80 years, you'll remember the epic tale of how you got Gjallerhorn, but not who the Awoken are.

Yeah, that's one I wish he'd addressed better. Destiny's story, so far, hasn't been told in the same way but we still know a lot. And it does seem that they are trying to do more in-game story stuff with TTK. Bungie, so far, hasn't really admitted that the story needed a lot more, but they have spoken about it in an "around the edges" kind of way.

I didn't add my own real commentary here, but the story of how I cheesed the VoG labyrinth chest for weeks on end and then finally got a Gjallerhorn from it isn't a good story. It's a crappy story. Sure, I'll remember it more than I remember who the Awoken are, but that's only because I have no idea who the Awoken are since the game never tells me. It's not possible for me to remember something that doesn't exist. The whole "Tell your own Legend" company line of Destiny, from the get-go, has just been totally lame to me. The story of my items are almost all "RNGeesus finally gave it to me" with the exception of "I bought it from Xur" and Thorn, which had a cool quest. I'm exaggerating a little, but really, the stories of how we got our loot just aren't that interesting in this game, and they're certainly a lot less interesting than the grimoire card backstories of... everything, but none of that is actually in the game (or even referenced in the game when it comes to the loot).

Interviewer: Why is there no plot in Destiny?
Luke: Mahyem is a good pvp mode.

No. That's completely ignoring what he actually said. Read the response again. It's not about Mayhem, it's about bringing more levity and story to the forefront of Destiny. He mentions story, he mentions Eris and Zavala. Only after he answers the question about the game taking itself too seriously while not having enough plot (again, the answer was TTK will have more levity and more plot) does he talk about how Mayhem is the gameplay version of that where not every mode has to be super competitive and can instead be crazy fun sometime too.

But levity isn't plot. It isn't storytelling. I can tell you a joke, but that's not the same thing as telling you a story. "Hey Eris, you're weird" has no beginning, middle, or end, no arc, no character development, none of that. Destiny is chock full of backstory, but has no actual, present story to speak of. Even when we have goals "You must kill Omnigul" there's only the action of it, with no set up for why we need to (she's "building an army" that we never see...) and no resolution after the fact (did killing her do *anything* to hurt Crota's cause? No idea; never mentioned again). The HoW quests are better with the chase for Skolas, but again we're thrust into it without any set-up (we never see the wolves escape, we don't understand why the queen is pissed at them, heck - we never even see the queen). There is action and resolution, with a degree of character thrown in, which is great, but then there's a huge leap in plot from "we've captured Skolas" to "you need to go into the prison of elders and kill Skolas." Didn't we just spend a bunch of time putting him in there? Why didn't we kill him instead of capturing him? What happened in the prison that has made it so we have to kill him? The game lacks lacks lacks when it comes to storytelling.

Interviewer: Destiny is really bad at things that Halo was good at, like the AI.
Luke: They're basically the same.

And they are. There's very little units in Halo do that they don't do in Destiny. And they do things in much the same way.

What Destiny lacks is some of the unit personality that Halo had. Units can be scared and run away in Destiny, they might even be more likely to do so or be triggered to do so when a leader unit is killed, but we don't see the obvious almost over-the-top reaction of the Grunts always running away when an Elite was killed. But put Elites, Brutes, Vandals, and Acolytes in the same room, swap their model and sounds for something generic, and give them the same gun and I think it would be at least somewhat difficult to tell who was who during most of a fight.

This is actually a good point. The thing that makes the AI in halo more memorable is that the units actually relate to each other. If there are two elites, one will likely flank you while the other provides covering fire. If one elite dies, the grunts might run away from fear. Brutes charge in and the grunts cheer. Maybe the actual gameplay isn't much different from Destiny's, but I get the feeling playing destiny that there's no tactical difference between fighting 1 thrall and 50 thralls or 1 goblin and 50 goblins or 4 vandals and a captain vs. 4 captains and a vandal. Every unit in Destiny always behaves the same regardless of what other units are around it, what happens to those units, what the terrain is, where you are, whether it's injured or not, etc etc etc..

They are also, as you say, utterly without personality, which is really disappointing after all of the fun stuff from Halo. "I get his helmet!" "No! He was my friend!" "The demon!" All fun lines that give me a sense of belonging in the world of Halo.

Anyway, I don't like that Luke said they're totally addressing the issues and then totally deflected when asked about those issues. He doesn't even cop to them. It gives me no hope for this xpac, and I'm worried about the future of Destiny.

Interviewer: Even though people play Destiny for hundreds of hours, everyone complains about it.
Luke: We are fully in touch with people's complaints.

Except, he didn't say that in the least. At one point he said: "I would say we are absolutely proud of what we’ve accomplished with Destiny, and where we’re headed. I think we’re really bullish about the future. But at the same time we acknowledge some of the things that need to be better. And that’s what we’re trying to do. And I think the critics, and many players, call us on those things. And we’re totally trying to address those."

You are intermixing definitions of "addressing." Addressing by Luke's definition is FIX THEM, not talk about it in THIS interview.

Like I mentioned elsewhere, actually commenting on HOW they are going to fix issues is never the point of these interviews, it's publicity. That's the same across the entire industry with E3 interviews.

Then let's be real: why even do an interview? If all you're going to do is deflect and not answer real questions that people what to know the answers to, why even participate in an interview?

Just give us an info dump on Bungie.net about what you actually want us to know, then call it a day. Repeating the same info over and over and over and over again for everyone under the sun doesn't get anyone anywhere.

Granted, this isn't a dig at Bungie, it's an industry wide practice, and it's fucking stupid, and I wish it would stop. I know it won't, because every gaming "news" site out there wants an interview, but they're just giving you the same information they gave the last thirty fucking guys who interviewed them. What's the point? Put out a press release and end this nonsense.

And I like Luke Timmins. The video posted on the front page the other day was great! So I'm not shit talking him, either.

Then let's be real: why even do an interview? If all you're going to do is deflect and not answer real questions that people what to know the answers to, why even participate in an interview?

Just give us an info dump on Bungie.net about what you actually want us to know, then call it a day. Repeating the same info over and over and over and over again for everyone under the sun doesn't get anyone anywhere.

Frankly, because it's not for us as much as it's for people that don't pay attention to every little piece of info. Placing it on Bungie.net would only reach a fraction of the players of Destiny, which is probably even more true with other games and companies. They gave the info dump already, on Bungie.net and on destinythegame.com. These interviews give them a chance to reach a broader audience than their dedicated fans.

That being said, these interviews do give hints at what they are planning on doing that they don't include in an official info dump, which is why I'm still glad for them.

Frankly, because it's not for us as much as it's for people that don't pay attention to every little piece of info. Placing it on Bungie.net would only reach a fraction of the players of Destiny, which is probably even more true with other games and companies. They gave the info dump already, on Bungie.net and on destinythegame.com. These interviews give them a chance to reach a broader audience than their dedicated fans.

I'll be honest, I didn't think about that.

That being said, these interviews do give hints at what they are planning on doing that they don't include in an official info dump, which is why I'm still glad for them.

Oh, I agree. Sometimes we get little extra teases or whatever, which is the only reason I actually read them. Probably the only reason any of us do.

"And I think the critics, and many players, call us on those things. And we’re totally trying to address those."
Here's where he says it. He then goes on to totally deflect every question about those things that they're being called on. That's not how you totally try to address those, that's how you totally try not to address those. I included this quote to set up how blatantly he doesn't address the concerns right after he tells the interviewer that they're fully trying to address them.

No, he didn't break it down issue by issue, but he did say:

Bungie and Activsiion are committed to Destiny in a way that’s pretty unusual. We announced this 10 year franchise, we have a large team, we love the game, and really we look across at all the features – whether it’s tuning the weapons, the way bosses work, the way we design destinations, it’s the storytelling, it’s the gear itself. And we ask ourselves how can we make this better? What’s working? What’s not working? We listen to fans. We’re players ourselves, we play in the evening. We’ve got hundreds of ours ourselves spent in the game.

And so The Taken King, we’re absolutely looking to make substantial improvements across the board, in all of these areas, including storytelling. And the player stories, we think those can be better too, and one of the ways is we want to reward players for their deeds. We want you to be earning loot out in the world by killing monsters, not necessarily saving up your money and buying something from a vendor. Saving up money and going shopping, that’s not the fantasy you have about being a space knight and saving the universe!

He hit on storytelling by name, he hit on better loot experiences, he hit on boss design, he hit on Destination design. And the real thing is, this is one single interview. Other interviews and videos have given us additional details. Not doing a huge point by point on every single issue in this one interview doesn't mean we won't hear more before TTK ships. We know Bungie is going to do closer looks at everything in the weeks ahead. They've told us so. And they did a good job of detailing House of Wolves before it launched. You're like Cody Miller complaining that Bungie lied about going to Saturn when in reality Saturn was always coming, just not when he wanted it to.

This was an "we're announcing The Taken King" interview, not a "let's talk about every single thing we're improving" interview. Further details will come and it's silly to call Bungie out on not fixing the actual issue because they didn't list them all in this one interview. And yeah, address was used in two different way... Don't confuse them for the sake of dinging Bungie.

I didn't add my own real commentary here, but the story of how I cheesed the VoG labyrinth chest for weeks on end and then finally got a Gjallerhorn from it isn't a good story. It's a crappy story. Sure, I'll remember it more than I remember who the Awoken are, but that's only because I have no idea who the Awoken are since the game never tells me. It's not possible for me to remember something that doesn't exist. The whole "Tell your own Legend" company line of Destiny, from the get-go, has just been totally lame to me. The story of my items are almost all "RNGeesus finally gave it to me" with the exception of "I bought it from Xur" and Thorn, which had a cool quest. I'm exaggerating a little, but really, the stories of how we got our loot just aren't that interesting in this game, and they're certainly a lot less interesting than the grimoire card backstories of... everything, but none of that is actually in the game (or even referenced in the game when it comes to the loot).

No one liner marketing slogan was ever going to describe everyone's gameplay, but yeah, I think you are exaggerating a lot. So what if you got your favorite weapon from Xur. It's your favorite weapon because of what it does, not where it came from. Even if every weapon and armor had its own multipart quest the stories should still mostly be about what that weapon or piece of armor did for you.

- Red Death (purchased from Xur) upgraded my Defender into nearly unkillable status and once won me a Crucible match by letting me take on four skilled enemies back to back where any other gun would have left me twice dead.
- The Last Word (purchased from Xur) helped my team achieve victory in the only Xbox 360 Bungie Bounty. I have an emblem that probably less than thirty people will ever have on the 360 in part because of that gun.
- The Helm of Saint-14 (purchased from Xur) was the deciding factor in my first successful Crota raid by letting my team finally survive the onslaught while we waited for the bridge out of the Abyss. I even got cheers when the sword knights were blinded part way through the wait!

Those are some of my Legends from the gear I bought. But then there's also Thunderlord which I got after getting pinned down my three Wizards during an Arc Burn Nightfall. The only way I finished was with the help of two DBOers, one of which brought down a Pike into the Hellmouth and vaporized everything!

I can probably tell you a story about most of my Exotics and a good number of the Legendaries I use on a consistent basis. Surely you have some Legends of you own of one type or another? And if yours include cheesing an encounter or shooting into a cave for an hour... well, who's fault is that?

But levity isn't plot. It isn't storytelling. I can tell you a joke, but that's not the same thing as telling you a story. "Hey Eris, you're weird" has no beginning, middle, or end, no arc, no character development, none of that. Destiny is chock full of backstory, but has no actual, present story to speak of. Even when we have goals "You must kill Omnigul" there's only the action of it, with no set up for why we need to (she's "building an army" that we never see...) and no resolution after the fact (did killing her do *anything* to hurt Crota's cause? No idea; never mentioned again). The HoW quests are better with the chase for Skolas, but again we're thrust into it without any set-up (we never see the wolves escape, we don't understand why the queen is pissed at them, heck - we never even see the queen). There is action and resolution, with a degree of character thrown in, which is great, but then there's a huge leap in plot from "we've captured Skolas" to "you need to go into the prison of elders and kill Skolas." Didn't we just spend a bunch of time putting him in there? Why didn't we kill him instead of capturing him? What happened in the prison that has made it so we have to kill him? The game lacks lacks lacks when it comes to storytelling.

Surely you don't think the extent of The Taken King's story improvements are going to be Zavala telling Eris that she is weird? Thats beyond ignorant and naive and has you approaching pretty darn close "made up problem" territory. If "hey Eris, you're weird" is the extent of the conversations in The Taken King I'll post a video of me snapping my Destiny disk in half.

And the thing is, most of those kinds of questions you asked are answered in game, in voiced dialogue even. Omnigul needed to be killed because she was in charge of wakening Crota... you know, the guy who drove the Guardians from the moon after killing thousands of them. Not killing her meant she would just try and revive Crota again and again. All of that is spoken in game. And it is elaborated on in the Grimoire. The Queen is pissed at the Wolves because they attacked the Reef, destroyed entire settlements, assassinated high ranking military leaders, sent assassins after the Queen herself, and, with Skolas' help, killed members of the Queen's personal guard and led the Wolves to break their peace agreement with the Awoken. All of that is spoken in game as well. All of it, and why we first capture and later kill Skolas, is further detailed in the Grimoire.

Do I want more cutscenes and better radio chatter and more scripted set pieces that have more going on than a bunch of enemies standing around waiting for me to kill them? Of course! But you can't ignore what was explained in game then complain that you don't understand this or that.

Anyway, I don't like that Luke said they're totally addressing the issues and then totally deflected when asked about those issues. He doesn't even cop to them. It gives me no hope for this xpac, and I'm worried about the future of Destiny.

Why should he have to say more after saying they're addressing those issues? Is not describing how exactly they're addressing it in the interview make him a liar somehow? Wouldn't that be really stupid to lay out specifics of how they are changing things given that TTK is still in development? And why would they rush to agree with criticism and elaborate on all the "issues" given that they obviously still believe in the game and, let's be real here, are still publicly pitching the game to try to expand their player base?

THANK GOD Bungie isn't one of those obsequious companies that acts like every consumer complaint must be addressed or every wish granted (although sometimes they seem headed in that direction, which worries ME about the future of Destiny). They have ideas and philosophies governing what they want to do and what they want the game to become. I like the fact that Bungie still seems like a company that is willing to acknowledge criticism without losing sight of their vision of what they want to build. To paraphrase what Jason said the other day, fan's concerns are real, but the hard part is diagnosing what Bungie should do. Go back and listen to Conversations with Creators (at the 33 minute mark). These guys hear the fans. If your specific criticisms don't end up being addressed (in the game), well, at some point maybe you have to acknowledge the game they want to play is not the game you want to play.

And the thing is, most of those kinds of questions you asked are answered in game, in voiced dialogue even. Omnigul needed to be killed because she was in charge of wakening Crota... you know, the guy who drove the Guardians from the moon after killing thousands of them. Not killing her meant she would just try and revive Crota again and again. All of that is spoken in game. And it is elaborated on in the Grimoire. The Queen is pissed at the Wolves because they attacked the Reef, destroyed entire settlements, assassinated high ranking military leaders, sent assassins after the Queen herself, and, with Skolas' help, killed members of the Queen's personal guard and led the Wolves to break their peace agreement with the Awoken. All of that is spoken in game as well. All of it, and why we first capture and later kill Skolas, is further detailed in the Grimoire.

Think about the choices that your character (or you) make to alter the story. Oh right, you make none. Literally the entire game is just you doing exactly what you are told. Go check out the skywatch. Go to the moon. Go to Venus. Go talk to the awoken. Go get a head of a Vex gate lord. Go to the black garden. Destroy the heart. Go kill Crota and his goonies. Go take out Skolas. None of those ideas came from your guardian.

Where did your character think or act for themselves? Never. The entire game has you making no decisions just following directions. It's not a story narrative, even if the characters talk to each other or display personality.

Bungie did the Destiny story the wrong way. They created a world and great backstory, but didn't have a story to tell in it. You always always always find out what your story is first, THEN you create the setting and backstory to support it. Bungie did it backward, and it shows.

It doesn't matter what is going on if the character you play has no real agency. I'll give it a chance, but I'd wager a lot that it is not a significant improvement. I just have my doubts Bungie knows how to tell a story in a visual medium at all. They did fine with text, and Halo was great, but those days and those people are gone.

They did fine with text? What choice did the Marathon Security Officer ever make ever? Did Marathon have a narrative? It was just AI's giving you orders and talking to each other, right? Halo was great? What choices did the Master Chief ever make that affected the story? He took the initiative to give the Covenant back their bomb... That was it. Did ODST have a story? The Rookie never even spoke, he just found evidence that his team had been in the city earlier then helped them complete Dare's mission, right? How about Reach? Noble Six barely speaks and just followed orders until he covers for Captain Keyes at the very end. And even that is following Carter's order to see the Cortana fragment safely to the Autumn, right?

Fact is, our characters in Bungie games have never had much agency on their own. From Marathon to Reach we've mainly been the one person who could accomplish the impossible task and usually did so without question. Mai and Thel are the only two characters we ever played that didn't stick to their orders! That doesn't mean stories weren't told and narratives didn't happen. Bungie has given us some truly great stories over the decades despite the very limited agency shown by the player's character. Usually they used memorable secondary characters from Durandal to Cortana to Noble Team to drive the story along. And it appears maybe that's the way they are heading with The Taken King.

They did fine with text? What choice did the Marathon Security Officer ever make ever? Did Marathon have a narrative? It was just AI's giving you orders and talking to each other, right? Halo was great? What choices did the Master Chief ever make that affected the story? He took the initiative to give the Covenant back their bomb... That was it. Did ODST have a story? The Rookie never even spoke, he just found evidence that his team had been in the city earlier then helped them complete Dare's mission, right? How about Reach? Noble Six barely speaks and just followed orders until he covers for Captain Keyes at the very end. And even that is following Carter's order to see the Cortana fragment safely to the Autumn, right?

Yes, Marathon has a narrative. Part of that narrative is you literally being a puppet, but there's something quite special about you in the sense that you somehow keep surviving. Master Chief's in-battle decisions are what won the war. The narrative works because you're in the military, and you do follow orders and go places, but he's the best warrior for the job. The best laid plans in a military mission can go straight to hell the moment the boots hit the ground. The story also goes beyond Master Chief. There's an overall narrative to H1, H2, and even H3. There's a world where actual things are taking place, can be understood, and there is a general sense of urgency. Things matter. I've also horribly simplified the narrative for this post's purposes. Please don't use that against me, since I think you agree with all of this but were just trying to make a larger point to Cody.

ODST gets tricky. The Rookie is nothing more than a plot device. He really doesn't matter until he meets up with everyone. His only purpose is to find random items that then allow you to play as the other ODSTs who have actually been doing something in this tale.

As for Reach, well, haloreachisnotcanonetc. :P

Fact is, our characters in Bungie games have never had much agency on their own. From Marathon to Reach we've mainly been the one person who could accomplish the impossible task and usually did so without question. Mai and Thel are the only two characters we ever played that didn't stick to their orders! That doesn't mean stories weren't told and narratives didn't happen. Bungie has given us some truly great stories over the decades despite the very limited agency shown by the player's character. Usually they used memorable secondary characters from Durandal to Cortana to Noble Team to drive the story along. And it appears maybe that's the way they are heading with The Taken King.

And now here's the difference, and why Cody isn't being inconsistent. Destiny has no narrative at all. No one around you, nothing. The problem isn't that we're constantly being told to go to stuff without any actual decision making abilities of our own. The problem is that there's no reason for any of it. At all. None. No story. No plot. No narrative. There's just a bad guy here and he needs to die! Because I said so! Why? Our Tower stands. It's been standing. No one has even tried to assault it. The last city is totally good to go. I haven't seen a single civilian at all die... or a single civilian at all, period. But doom's coming our way if we don't do this! Or not. Who knows. There's no story.

So, your character isn't a pawn like in Marathon. You're just literally being told to go places and do things for no reason at all. You're not Durandal's puppet. You're not some means to an end. You're just doing whatever because the game says so. You're not Master Chief surrounded by interesting characters following orders on missions that steadily grow more urgent as time goes on (give or take H3). You're not the Rookie who is being used as a way to show and tell a story of other characters. You're just here listening to people and doing things, and oh boy could they tell you some things but they don't even have time to tell you why they don't have time to tell you things!

And in a game that's been marketed as building your Legend, and about how important the GUARDIANS are to saving the world, these Guardians have zero motivation, zero context, and zero authority because there is seriously nothing going on in-game to justify anything beyond, "Someone said to do this, so go do it. Then, after you've done it, whether you actually really accomplished something means nothing because who knows what you really did or didn't do or if it mattered."

Anyhow, like you said, Taken King might actually truly start presenting some sort of plot or narrative or stakes or something that matters in this universe. We'll see. Either way, there have been no consequences to this point. Someone on Earth has to die. The Tower has to fall. Half that city has to be blown up. Something has to actually happen to show that we're in such dire times for there to be any true impact or meaning from a narrative standpoint. Time will tell.

They did fine with text? What choice did the Marathon Security Officer ever make ever? Did Marathon have a narrative? It was just AI's giving you orders and talking to each other, right? Halo was great? What choices did the Master Chief ever make that affected the story?

MC: He decided to pull Cortana and run from 343. He decided to blow up the engines on the PoA. Both his ideas, and both pivotal moments to the story. The major moments in the first Halo game are in fact largely predicated upon his choices.

Marathon didn't have much of a narrative, but you don't need one as much in text. Visual storytelling is very different than that using the written word.

Not really relevant, but she did rescue Shinatama on her own, and a lot of the story was her decision.

Not really relevant, but she did rescue Shinatama on her own, and a lot of the story was her decision.

Yep, I mentioned Mia. She easily had the most agency out of any Bungie character. From pleading to continue her investigations to killing Barabas to going after Shimatana against orders, to breaking into the state building to dig up her own past, to making the choice whether to get revenge on Griffin or to be the woman she should be and walk away.

Plus there's some cool terminal stories like the one where she experienced euphoria and long term enhanced strength and stamina during a workout routine. For like an hour she did her routine over and over at superhuman levels refusing to stop and even becoming a bit hostile when asked. And when she finally finished she was still happy and energetic instead of being worn out as her trainers expected. After that, all her trainers were issued shock pistols in case she got unruly again! :)

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And in a game that's been marketed as building your Legend, and about how important the GUARDIANS are to saving the world, these Guardians have zero motivation, zero context, and zero authority because there is seriously nothing going on in-game to justify anything beyond, "Someone said to do this, so go do it. Then, after you've done it, whether you actually really accomplished something means nothing because who knows what you really did or didn't do or if it mattered."

See, I draw up some issue with this take of Destiny. Now, I will agree that some of it is really easy to get all muddy and confused about, but the suggestion there is a lack of a core narrative to the game that doesn't progress anything forward and lacks any player character agency is disregarding a lot of the game.

At first I held a complain that the game was a tangled mess of missions, up to the point I realized that with story missions there were two types, the core plot missions, and then side missions.

Over the course of the core missions you are woken up from death, find your way with the aid of the little light to the tower, while being observed by the Exo stranger. You get your NLS drive and investigate a facility in Old Russia, only to discover that there is a Wizard there, that came from the Moon. Once on the moon you investigate traces of a Guardian (once again observed by the Exo Stranger - and are then provided breadcrumbs to follow to Venus) and discover that the Hive hold a shard of the traveler that is enveloped in Darkness. Releasing that brings back some light to the Traveler.

Your Guardian travels to Venus, is introduced to the Vex, and advised that they are a threat to continued human existence. With that information you are directed to pursue the Heart of the Black Garden, as it holds the most immediate threat to the City, though you have no direct proof, but if it's anything like what was occurring on the moon you know it has to be done.

So you visit the Reef, and demand an audience with the Queen, rather than be shot down by patrol craft. There is conflict within the Reef as to whether or not to involve themselves with your Traveler, but they provide you hints to what you'll need to progress. You claim the head of a Gatelord and bring it back to the Reef. A little bit of snark later and the Queen is impressed enough to gift you the location you seek, and you travel to Mars. After locating the access gate, you find a way to recharge the Gatelord's Eye and you venture into the black Garden.

Once you are done with defeating the Heart, the Traveler begins healing, and there is celebration in the tower. You do not partake, and instead prepare to venture back out into the Wild to seek more discoveries of the Golden Age and defend humanity further from the forces of darkness.

And when it comes to it, the start and finish of each destination holds at least a degree of the Player's Guardian driving that action. You may be moving toward carrots held by the Ghost and the Stranger and the Reef and the Tower, but the drive to those actions are all Guardian. Your bold advance into the Hive's Dark Ritual, and the interactions between Venus, Mars, and the Reef. Your Guardian isn't sure of what they're doing, but they are blazing a trail forward. That is why each destination, at it's core, is being opened by your visit. No one has been to the Moon since it was ceded to the Hive and lived, but you open it. The network for tracking the Vex and all the forgotten sites on Venus are reopened by your Guardian. And you are the Guarding that broke through the Cabal Exclusion Zone.

There's some story/gameplay segregation - and it's a definite that there are various smaller groups or parties of Guardians doing more far reaching exploration (Kabr and Eris both had full Fireteams of 6 when they ventured out, the Guardian who died on the Moon) and the direct time spent with the core plot is limited when you take into account that the side missions, strikes, patrols, Raids, and Crucible are all outside of the core story.

This is in no way a total defense of the storytelling of Vanilla Destiny. Just that there is a core story with character agency that progresses the plot forward. Combine that with the continued progression with Dark Below and House of Wolves, with admittedly less agency but more overall exploration of the story progression, and I'm excited for what they'll do with Taken King, as they have had much more time to respond and build responses to the flaws in Year One. I mean, there is a reason Luke Smith couldn't work on the Crota Raid.

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This is in no way a total defense of the storytelling of Vanilla Destiny. Just that there is a core story with character agency that progresses the plot forward. Combine that with the continued progression with Dark Below and House of Wolves, with admittedly less agency but more overall exploration of the story progression, and I'm excited for what they'll do with Taken King, as they have had much more time to respond and build responses to the flaws in Year One. I mean, there is a reason Luke Smith couldn't work on the Crota Raid.

What core story and plot? Everything you just described in your post, while showing Guardian action that progresses the "go here because I told you to" thing forward, does not express any type of core story or plot. What did that shard of the Traveler do? Nothing. What did every Eris mission accomplish? Apparently nothing because at the end of the day, surprise, Crota's back. What did doing whatever for the Queen do? Nothing, other than take care of her dirty work. What did destroying the House of Wolves do for her? Nothing. You literally just took care of someone else's problems because they told you to. Why'd you kill that Gatelord? Because you were told to so that you could get to a Dark Heart. Why'd you kill that Dark Heart? Someone said it was bad and we were in grave danger allegedly, even though the thing was weak as hell and easy to take out (elaborated upon by Grimoire, thank goodness). Where was there ever any urgency? What changed as a result of our defeating all of these things and going to all of these places? Nothing beyond showing that Guardians are going places and doing things now. Yay!

Until Taken King, which appears to be a direct story result of Crota's End (and really nothing else but the Raid), nothing prior has truly actually been connected. Every hint you named, the pieces being put together, and the Exo giving us her rifle were all so insignificantly thrown together and inconsequential. All you named in your post were actions perpetrated and things that Guardians did. You have Cody, and a little bit of what I said, in that instance. Guardians did things, more things than I think either of us gave credit for. But why? Because they were told. Not because of any plot or story or urgency or consequence. At the end of the day, they did things for things's sake. Things had to happen because it's a video game, so things happened. That's about it.

Oryx may change that. The Taken are gonna start popping up all over the place. Previous strikes will change based on their presence. But will we ever see an actual threat to the Tower, City, or Traveler? Will the Taken actually cause urgency/consequence? What will the true stakes be? Time will tell, but either way, it'll be an improvement, that's for sure.

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They did fine with text? What choice did the Marathon Security Officer ever make ever? Did Marathon have a narrative? It was just AI's giving you orders and talking to each other, right? Halo was great? What choices did the Master Chief ever make that affected the story? He took the initiative to give the Covenant back their bomb... That was it. Did ODST have a story? The Rookie never even spoke, he just found evidence that his team had been in the city earlier then helped them complete Dare's mission, right? How about Reach? Noble Six barely speaks and just followed orders until he covers for Captain Keyes at the very end. And even that is following Carter's order to see the Cortana fragment safely to the Autumn, right?

Yes, Marathon has a narrative. Part of that narrative is you literally being a puppet, but there's something quite special about you in the sense that you somehow keep surviving. Master Chief's in-battle decisions are what won the war. The narrative works because you're in the military, and you do follow orders and go places, but he's the best warrior for the job. The best laid plans in a military mission can go straight to hell the moment the boots hit the ground. The story also goes beyond Master Chief. There's an overall narrative to H1, H2, and even H3. There's a world where actual things are taking place, can be understood, and there is a general sense of urgency. Things matter. I've also horribly simplified the narrative for this post's purposes. Please don't use that against me, since I think you agree with all of this but were just trying to make a larger point to Cody.

ODST gets tricky. The Rookie is nothing more than a plot device. He really doesn't matter until he meets up with everyone. His only purpose is to find random items that then allow you to play as the other ODSTs who have actually been doing something in this tale.

As for Reach, well, haloreachisnotcanonetc. :P

Yes, the Halos did a much better job than Destiny in getting their story and world and stakes across. We certainly agree there.

Fact is, our characters in Bungie games have never had much agency on their own. From Marathon to Reach we've mainly been the one person who could accomplish the impossible task and usually did so without question. Mai and Thel are the only two characters we ever played that didn't stick to their orders! That doesn't mean stories weren't told and narratives didn't happen. Bungie has given us some truly great stories over the decades despite the very limited agency shown by the player's character. Usually they used memorable secondary characters from Durandal to Cortana to Noble Team to drive the story along. And it appears maybe that's the way they are heading with The Taken King.

And now here's the difference, and why Cody isn't being inconsistent. Destiny has no narrative at all. No one around you, nothing. The problem isn't that we're constantly being told to go to stuff without any actual decision making abilities of our own. The problem is that there's no reason for any of it. At all. None. No story. No plot. No narrative. There's just a bad guy here and he needs to die! Because I said so! Why? Our Tower stands. It's been standing. No one has even tried to assault it. The last city is totally good to go. I haven't seen a single civilian at all die... or a single civilian at all, period. But doom's coming our way if we don't do this! Or not. Who knows. There's no story.

You're just completely wrong here. Did Destiny do a pretty lame job of telling us why finding Rasputin mattered or that the Hive were about to resurrect their leader who had singlehandedly driven us from the moon or that the Vex were about to turn the garden world of Venus into a charred technological rock like they did to Mercury, or that The Darkness hiding in the Black Garden was actively preventing The Traveler from healing? Absolutely! But those real, important threats to The City are still touched on in the base game and are made more clear by the Grimoire and the later expansions.

Just take the events in the Cosmodrome. We are reforged in Light and make our escape. When we come back one of the first things we do is investigate a downed Jumpship who's audio log makes it clear they detected an active Warmind. We know from the Grimoire that Warminds were super smart, were in charge of our solar system's defenses, had arrays of orbital weapons powerful enough to easily swat aside Vex and Cabal forces, and even played a significant role in humanity's study and understanding of the Vex when one Warmind once had to rescue Ishtar Collective researchers and hundreds of perfectly simulated virtual copies from a Vex mind. Warminds were a big deal and so was finding one intact. From there we helped save that Warmind, who we found out to be Rasputin, from Fallen network attacks and we played a key role in Rasputin reconnecting to and spreading to our inner colonies. This is also a big deal because despite the fact that we saved him, Rasputin isn't talking to The City. And he isn't talking to us because it is very very likely that he watched his fellow Warminds die in the collapse, watched how strong The Darkness was by operating alone, and abandoned humanity letting billions die and possibly hit The Traveler with an antimatter weapon all so he could hide, survive, and win the whole game of galactic dominance at the expense of all other players, including us.

The entire first chunk of Destiny wasn't us going places for no reason, it was us finding and partially securing a hugely important ally for The City. And it was a set up for a classic Bungie AI rampancy story to come! What we did on the other planets similarly had hugely important links into what happened into the past and provided huge hooks and hints for things to come in the future.

So, your character isn't a pawn like in Marathon. You're just literally being told to go places and do things for no reason at all. You're not Durandal's puppet. You're not some means to an end. You're just doing whatever because the game says so. You're not Master Chief surrounded by interesting characters following orders on missions that steadily grow more urgent as time goes on (give or take H3). You're not the Rookie who is being used as a way to show and tell a story of other characters. You're just here listening to people and doing things, and oh boy could they tell you some things but they don't even have time to tell you why they don't have time to tell you things!

Without our actions the Fallen would have captured or destroyed Rasputin. Crota would have returned and killed The City's millions of inhabitance. The Vex would have destroyed Venus and would not have been stopped in their quest to control time itself. And The Darkness might have finished off The Traveler!

Anyhow, like you said, Taken King might actually truly start presenting some sort of plot or narrative or stakes or something that matters in this universe. We'll see. Either way, there have been no consequences to this point. Someone on Earth has to die. The Tower has to fall. Half that city has to be blown up. Something has to actually happen to show that we're in such dire times for there to be any true impact or meaning from a narrative standpoint. Time will tell.

A lot of those things already happened. The Fallen attacked The City's outward expansion at Twilight Gap, their walkers traded fire with The City's guns. Fallen warriors had to be driven from The City's walls. The Fallen would have won if the House of Wolves forces that numbered in the millions had not gotten tied up in a war the Queen of the Awoken initiated. Six powerful Guardians, Guardians who were legends and who knew things no one else knew, descended into the Hive's fortress on the moon in an attempt to kill Crota after he killed thousands of Guardians, and all but one of them were killed. Not just killed, they were tortured or smothered or screamed in agony in the darkness as their light was torn from them bit by bit. And there's more and more where that came from.

Does this stuff also need to happen in game? Yes! But I believe it is coming. There was a quote from Bungie a long while back about someone internally liking the Vex the most because of a character's moving death. I'm guessing that death will eventually be the death of the Exo Stranger who we now suspect to be that Ishtar Collective researcher, or a perfect virtual copy, who was once held captive by the Vex, and who is now using the Vex's ability to manipulate time in order to try and prevent the collapse. Eris, to my surprise, is still in play as a character and there's no way she is going to end well. The Queen of the Awoken has agreed to go after Oryx (at Eris' request... I think...) and is basically in a cold war with The Nine, who are mentioned often but have not yet been revealed. Her brother disagrees with her on many things and feels pretty shifty in general. I'd wager there will be a death in that family eventually. Just not sure who.

I think what's really happened is Destiny's story really is meant to play out over ten years and the lack of immediate payoff is intentional, though the poor storytelling in the first chapter (the base game) was not.

Trying to avoid an argument over semantics here, but I think Destiny clearly does have "a story"... it just isn't well told. The lack of elements you are asking about (characters making decisions, motivation for their actions) does not equal "no story". It just explains why Destiny's story failed to captivate most people in any significant way.

But this is all part of the problem I have with way Bungie has addressed storytelling in Destiny so far. When I first played the House of Wolves missions, I had a moment where I thought to myself "this is better... we have some dialog between characters here." Then it hit me: Just how low has the bar been set if the simple existence of dialog between characters feels like an improvement? Before both expansions, Bungie has said that they are looking to improve the way they tell stories in Destiny, and both times I've gotten my hopes up. But these changes are so minimal, so elementary, that I can't help but walk away thinking "Do they believe this is enough?"

Here's the thing: I want to play the game that Bungie wants to make. The game they are passionate about. After playing (and loving) Destiny for close to a year now, I honestly believe that telling a compelling narrative is not something Bungie is particularly interested in right now. How could it be? We've had 2 $20 expansions without hearing a peep from our Guardians, our Ghosts, or any of the existing characters in the game. No cutscenes, almost no backstory (the trailers actually contain more story information than the expansions themselves). Just a couple new voices talking in our ears, telling us where to go next. And that's ok. It might not be to all of our liking, but if that is the direction Bungie wants to go, it is certainly their prerogative.

I just wish they would stop telling us that they are going to do better with storytelling unless they are genuinely committed to making real, substantial, meaningful improvements. At this point I would almost rather hear them say "storytelling really isn't our focus with this game".

This is more of a clarity question as I can't find anything about it: Did Bungie actually say they were working to improve story telling with The Dark Below and The House of Wolves? I know they said they recognized that the story wasn't as good as we were expecting, but I don't remember them ever promising improvements until the recent interviews about The Taken King. But this could be because of my faulty memory as well.

You're just completely wrong here. Did Destiny do a pretty lame job of telling us why finding Rasputin mattered or that the Hive were about to resurrect their leader who had singlehandedly driven us from the moon or that the Vex were about to turn the garden world of Venus into a charred technological rock like they did to Mercury, or that The Darkness hiding in the Black Garden was actively preventing The Traveler from healing? Absolutely! But those real, important threats to The City are still touched on in the base game and are made more clear by the Grimoire and the later expansions.

Is the Traveler still healing? How do you know? You were told once, right? Have you seen any direct evidence of that? Does it matter if the garden world of Venus is turned into a charred technological rock? Maybe, but why? Venus used to be uninhabitable, right? Why is Venus significant at the moment? It appears that our situation on Earth isn't because of the Vex. I suppose the Vex could make it worse, but it appears that they've been hanging out in our system for way longer than we were space-faring. I can't see how I'm completely wrong when all you did was describe things you were told. We haven't seen any real plot or story or change or anything from what you just described.

Just take the events in the Cosmodrome. We are reforged in Light and make our escape. When we come back one of the first things we do is investigate a downed Jumpship who's audio log makes it clear they detected an active Warmind. We know from the Grimoire that Warminds were super smart, were in charge of our solar system's defenses, had arrays of orbital weapons powerful enough to easily swat aside Vex and Cabal forces, and even played a significant role in humanity's study and understanding of the Vex when one Warmind once had to rescue Ishtar Collective researchers and hundreds of perfectly simulated virtual copies from a Vex mind. Warminds were a big deal and so was finding one intact. From there we helped save that Warmind, who we found out to be Rasputin, from Fallen network attacks and we played a key role in Rasputin reconnecting to and spreading to our inner colonies. This is also a big deal because despite the fact that we saved him, Rasputin isn't talking to The City. And he isn't talking to us because it is very very likely that he watched his fellow Warminds die in the collapse, watched how strong The Darkness was by operating alone, and abandoned humanity letting billions die and possibly hit The Traveler with an antimatter weapon all so he could hide, survive, and win the whole game of galactic dominance at the expense of all other players, including us.

If I take the Grimoire away from you and wipe it from your memory, that little mission with Rasputin goes nowhere. It gets brought up once or twice and disappears until Dark Below. Destiny, the game, does not present this story and plot. Sorry. Your speculation of Rasputin's motives are awesome, and I like it, but you haven't really gotten that from anything presented in-game. So, I'm still not completely wrong on this. For the record, neither are you based on external material and conjecture, and I even agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I'm expressing all of this from what's actually presented in Destiny, which isn't much (and has been documented and complained about and upheld on numerous occasions over this past year).

The entire first chunk of Destiny wasn't us going places for no reason, it was us finding and partially securing a hugely important ally for The City. And it was a set up for a classic Bungie AI rampancy story to come! What we did on the other planets similarly had hugely important links into what happened into the past and provided huge hooks and hints for things to come in the future.

Well, I'm sure glad we have a Grimoire to let us know that.

Without our actions the Fallen would have captured or destroyed Rasputin. Crota would have returned and killed The City's millions of inhabitance. The Vex would have destroyed Venus and would not have been stopped in their quest to control time itself. And The Darkness might have finished off The Traveler!

Spoiler alert, Crota did return! Everything we did in-game didn't prevent his return. Rasputin being around doesn't help that situation out. Rasputin, to this point, has not been shown to have played any real part at all in helping us to deal with Crota or the Darkness. You're still just largely speculating. The game shows otherwise. The Vex are still anything but dealt with. The Vault of Glass is also independent of a ton of this, and we would have made it to Venus one way or another, with or without the Queen. Atheon was still a thing, though what we stopped or why is still unclear. The Fallen actually busted into the Vault of Glass, but it's okay because the very next level it was sealed up again. Even that had no consequence. You'd think the Vault sitting open would have been bad news. Or did the Vex just fix it right back up? Who knows. We're just going places and doing things.

A lot of those things already happened. The Fallen attacked The City's outward expansion at Twilight Gap, their walkers traded fire with The City's guns. Fallen warriors had to be driven from The City's walls. The Fallen would have won if the House of Wolves forces that numbered in the millions had not gotten tied up in a war the Queen of the Awoken initiated. Six powerful Guardians, Guardians who were legends and who knew things no one else knew, descended into the Hive's fortress on the moon in an attempt to kill Crota after he killed thousands of Guardians, and all but one of them were killed. Not just killed, they were tortured or smothered or screamed in agony in the darkness as their light was torn from them bit by bit. And there's more and more where that came from.

You saw all of this in game? I've been playing the wrong game apparently. I feel bad for everyone who hasn't read the Grimoire like you and myself have. Sad day. Again, Destiny, the game, has just about none of this plot and story.

Does this stuff also need to happen in game? Yes! But I believe it is coming. There was a quote from Bungie a long while back about someone internally liking the Vex the most because of a character's moving death. I'm guessing that death will eventually be the death of the Exo Stranger who we now suspect to be that Ishtar Collective researcher, or a perfect virtual copy, who was once held captive by the Vex, and who is now using the Vex's ability to manipulate time in order to try and prevent the collapse. Eris, to my surprise, is still in play as a character and there's no way she is going to end well. The Queen of the Awoken has agreed to go after Oryx (at Eris' request... I think...) and is basically in a cold war with The Nine, who are mentioned often but have not yet been revealed. Her brother disagrees with her on many things and feels pretty shifty in general. I'd wager there will be a death in that family eventually. Just not sure who.

I believe it's coming, too. Well, sort of. Taken King will finally show a direct consequence of a Raid, and from there things should happen. As has been stated numerous times by numerous people around here, there's probably no true hope of a story or plot until Destiny 2.

I think it's funny that I'm dead wrong, but you conclude on the fact that this stuff needs to happen in game. Which is Cody's point and mine. Nothing goes down in-game. If I could wipe the Grimoire from existence and from your memory and everyone else's, this entire conversation isn't even happening right now. Why? Because Destiny has no story or plot. Sorry dude. Bungie.net does, though!

I think what's really happened is Destiny's story really is meant to play out over ten years and the lack of immediate payoff is intentional, though the poor storytelling in the first chapter (the base game) was not.

I think that's a common sense statement. Ten year plan. Of course the story should be meant to play out over ten years. At the same time, plot threads do need and can have immediate payoff. A single chapter in a story can have a payoff. Half a chapter can have a payoff and lay a foundation and make things clear while keeping other things mysterious. The whats and whys can have meaning and develop. To this point, whats and whys don't happen. Taken King will change this.

What did that shard of the Traveler do? Nothing.

Show that there were actions that could be taken to heal the Traveler.

What did every Eris mission accomplish? Apparently nothing because at the end of the day, surprise, Crota's back.

Crota is not allowed to fully reform, specifically on our plane of existence.

What did doing whatever for the Queen do? Nothing, other than take care of her dirty work. What did destroying the House of Wolves do for her? Nothing. You literally just took care of someone else's problems because they told you to.

You took care of her problems because you owed her a favor.

Why'd you kill that Gatelord? Because you were told to so that you could get to a Dark Heart. Why'd you kill that Dark Heart? Someone said it was bad and we were in grave danger allegedly, even though the thing was weak as hell and easy to take out (elaborated upon by Grimoire, thank goodness).

All of this ties back into healing the Traveler.

Until Taken King, which appears to be a direct story result of Crota's End (and really nothing else but the Raid), nothing prior has truly actually been connected.

I'm happy to see that Taken King will be leading further into connecting the different plot points together. And there are even more parts of the world interconnected when you bring in the side missions.

Every hint you named, the pieces being put together, and the Exo giving us her rifle were all so insignificantly thrown together and inconsequential. All you named in your post were actions perpetrated and things that Guardians did. You have Cody, and a little bit of what I said, in that instance. Guardians did things, more things than I think either of us gave credit for. But why? Because they were told.

When it comes down to it, the argument stands that your agency in Destiny is in line with the agency of the Security Officer and Master Chief. In essence, they are all doing things because they are told. The details of it may vary, and their drive to accomplish may be individual at a given task. In essence, you can boil the story of Halo down into things Master Chief did, and very few of those weren't guided by someone else's hand in the broad stroke.

Oryx may change that. The Taken are gonna start popping up all over the place. Previous strikes will change based on their presence. But will we ever see an actual threat to the Tower, City, or Traveler? Will the Taken actually cause urgency/consequence? What will the true stakes be? Time will tell, but either way, it'll be an improvement, that's for sure.

The thing is, you're playing in a persistent world. The world has to change with everyone. And there is a lot more time for it to change. I'm not going to argue that the presentation of the Destiny story is without faults. But it is definitely there, and there is a lot more presented actively and in game than a lot of people I see give it due credit for. And I would say in large part it is because of how broad the game is compared to most everything else on the market.

But the urgency is in the mission itself, and the consequence is in the next expansion/world update. And maybe that's a fault in itself. Though it seems that Bungie intends to continue to improve upon that.

This is in no way a total defense of the storytelling of Vanilla Destiny. Just that there is a core story with character agency that progresses the plot forward. Combine that with the continued progression with Dark Below and House of Wolves, with admittedly less agency but more overall exploration of the story progression, and I'm excited for what they'll do with Taken King, as they have had much more time to respond and build responses to the flaws in Year One. I mean, there is a reason Luke Smith couldn't work on the Crota Raid.

What core story and plot? Everything you just described in your post, while showing Guardian action that progresses the "go here because I told you to" thing forward, does not express any type of core story or plot. What did that shard of the Traveler do? Nothing. What did every Eris mission accomplish? Apparently nothing because at the end of the day, surprise, Crota's back. What did doing whatever for the Queen do? Nothing, other than take care of her dirty work. What did destroying the House of Wolves do for her? Nothing. You literally just took care of someone else's problems because they told you to. Why'd you kill that Gatelord? Because you were told to so that you could get to a Dark Heart. Why'd you kill that Dark Heart? Someone said it was bad and we were in grave danger allegedly, even though the thing was weak as hell and easy to take out (elaborated upon by Grimoire, thank goodness). Where was there ever any urgency? What changed as a result of our defeating all of these things and going to all of these places? Nothing beyond showing that Guardians are going places and doing things now. Yay!

Your disregard for the story bit that have happened is just getting plain silly now.

- The Traveler had not been healing and might have even been dying thank to the Hive. We stopped their attacks.
- Eris and the five that went with her killed Crota (in our plane of existance) and put a decades long stop to his war against us.
- The Queen of the Awoken is in some sort of tense standoff with The Nine who actively worked to push Skolas to attack The Reef. We helped her with the House of Wolves because we owed her for helping us kill The Darkness in the Black Garden which had somehow prevented The Traveler for healing in the centuries since the end of the collapse.

Until Taken King, which appears to be a direct story result of Crota's End (and really nothing else but the Raid), nothing prior has truly actually been connected. Every hint you named, the pieces being put together, and the Exo giving us her rifle were all so insignificantly thrown together and inconsequential. All you named in your post were actions perpetrated and things that Guardians did. You have Cody, and a little bit of what I said, in that instance. Guardians did things, more things than I think either of us gave credit for. But why? Because they were told. Not because of any plot or story or urgency or consequence. At the end of the day, they did things for things's sake. Things had to happen because it's a video game, so things happened. That's about it.

You and Cody have such a lack of imagination and such a poor grasp of the longer term connections and storytelling that Destiny is doing. You ignore and reduce and oversimplify actions and plot thread all so you can make your incorrect claims that nothing we did had any meaning. I think what the Exo Stranger said is the real truth of Destiny: "All endings are beginnings." Meaning that it's all connected and important, even if Bungie got off on the wrong foot.

This is more of a clarity question as I can't find anything about it: Did Bungie actually say they were working to improve story telling with The Dark Below and The House of Wolves? I know they said they recognized that the story wasn't as good as we were expecting, but I don't remember them ever promising improvements until the recent interviews about The Taken King. But this could be because of my faulty memory as well.

Not really.

For The Dark Below they said a few words about having a more singular story where one thing led directly to the next and how it was all focused on Crota. House of Wolves they talked up Petra and Variks a bit and how they would better lead us through missions but didn't do anything like promise a big new focus on story.

Show that there were actions that could be taken to heal the Traveler.

Agreed. The lack of seeing a healing or change to the Traveler is the problem. Part of storytelling, especially in a visual medium like video games, is about showing and not telling. So far, no good.

Crota is not allowed to fully reform, specifically on our plane of existence.

I didn't consider this piece. Good call there, though I don't think the presentation in-game to any casual viewer (and potentially hardcore viewer) drives that point home. I think the message is clear that Crota is back, and if he's not dealt with right now, we're all doomed. I wonder if the plane of existence thing is generally thought about by Destiny gamers. Regardless, excellent observation!

You took care of her problems because you owed her a favor.

A single pair of coordinates traded for endless missions and justice. I wouldn't call it an even trade, and I wouldn't really call that plot or story. I was told to go kill a thing to get a thing, still end up owing a favor, and now I gotta do more things. But I get your point.

All of this ties back into healing the Traveler.

I agree with you, again. At the same time, it goes right back to showing and not telling, because to this point there's no evidence of it.

When it comes down to it, the argument stands that your agency in Destiny is in line with the agency of the Security Officer and Master Chief. In essence, they are all doing things because they are told. The details of it may vary, and their drive to accomplish may be individual at a given task. In essence, you can boil the story of Halo down into things Master Chief did, and very few of those weren't guided by someone else's hand in the broad stroke.

At least in Marathon and Halo, some form of story and plot is taking place around the character. H1 has three acts. H2 has three acts. Things are actually going down. Master Chief makes many key decisions on his own. Marathon is pretty much nothing but following orders, but the storytelling medium there is largely text (and in-game). Also, part of the storytelling mechanic in that game is the literal fact that you're a puppet for Durandal being taken places as he sees fit.

The thing is, you're playing in a persistent world. The world has to change with everyone. And there is a lot more time for it to change. I'm not going to argue that the presentation of the Destiny story is without faults. But it is definitely there, and there is a lot more presented actively and in game than a lot of people I see give it due credit for. And I would say in large part it is because of how broad the game is compared to most everything else on the market.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree when it comes to story/plot, but you've absolutely brought up some good points. Thank goodness Destiny is a ton of fun to play though, right? I freaking love this game. The "story" is an absolute letdown.

But the urgency is in the mission itself, and the consequence is in the next expansion/world update. And maybe that's a fault in itself. Though it seems that Bungie intends to continue to improve upon that.

I think if that's Bungie's mentality, then yeah, I'd say it's a huge fault in itself. I can't wait for the Taken King because I feel like things will start to develop in a good way. I'm still not expecting much until Destiny 2, but I'm on board. :D

This is more of a clarity question as I can't find anything about it: Did Bungie actually say they were working to improve story telling with The Dark Below and The House of Wolves? I know they said they recognized that the story wasn't as good as we were expecting, but I don't remember them ever promising improvements until the recent interviews about The Taken King. But this could be because of my faulty memory as well.

Not really.

For The Dark Below they said a few words about having a more singular story where one thing led directly to the next and how it was all focused on Crota. House of Wolves they talked up Petra and Variks a bit and how they would better lead us through missions but didn't do anything like promise a big new focus on story.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. I know we all HOPED for better story in TDB and HoW, but HoW was the earliest I expected any big developments.

This is more of a clarity question as I can't find anything about it: Did Bungie actually say they were working to improve story telling with The Dark Below and The House of Wolves? I know they said they recognized that the story wasn't as good as we were expecting, but I don't remember them ever promising improvements until the recent interviews about The Taken King. But this could be because of my faulty memory as well.

I certainly could be mistaken... I read so many Destiny articles and interviews that they begin to blur together. But I do remember consistent talking points in the lead up to both expansions.

Before TDB, there were mentions of "we're looking at new interesting ways to tell stories" from Deej and others in interviews (both video and print)... The Thorn bounty was brought up as an example of a particular direction they were looking in. I can only assume that the "bring me the eyes" side quest is what they were referring to. I really enjoyed parts of that quest, but I wouldn't say it was any kind of improvement in storytelling. Just the quests themselves were a bit more interesting. There was also some talk about having a clear villain to go up against, and how the story missions would take you through the buildup towards a final confrontation. This sort of happened, but again I would say the simple existence of a plot does not equate to good storytelling.

Before House of Wolves, I feel like Bungie was less inclined to make any direct claims of improvement. But I do believe the narrative content was still oversold, to a degree.

Here's a clip from an interview with NZGamer:

NZ: Players and press alike have praised Destiny for the quality of the gameplay, and the density of the lore, yet criticize the storytelling methods used in both the main campaign and that of the first DLC pack, The Dark Below. What will the House of Wolves DLC be doing storytelling-wise to enthrall those who have stuck with Destiny, but more importantly, entice new and lapsed players who crave the style of the science fiction narrative gamers came to expect from Bungie based on your previous works?

Deej: We’re introducing players to new characters who will send them back into the wild on quests of justice and revenge. An unexpected alliance with the Awoken gives us a chance to see the world of Destiny from a different perspective. The agents of The Reef have new and exciting reasons for you to fight your enemies.

See what I mean? It's not wildly off base, but playing the HoW story missions, do we ever really feel the effects of an alliance with the Awoken (aside from the voices telling us where to go?). Are the reasons for fighting with the Fallen actually any different than before? Does any of it matter to us when we're in the middle of the action?
This was an opportunity to actually develop our relationship with the Queen and the Awoken in a meaningful way. If we'd been made to feel the gravity and tragedy of the Wolves' betrayal... if we had felt true pathos for the queen and the awoken, a genuine desire to help them... then I would say things were on the right track. But instead, it is all handled so casually. Arriving at the reef for the first time feels like the opening of a new mall, not the beginning of an important new alliance.

So yes, I do feel Bungie has oversold the narrative aspects of both expansions, to a degree.

I just wish they would stop telling us that they are going to do better with storytelling unless they are genuinely committed to making real, substantial, meaningful improvements. At this point I would almost rather hear them say "storytelling really isn't our focus with this game".

I think the latter is probably true is that their focus leading up to launch (and maybe through year one?) was probably not storytelling, but building a foundation. I really hope that going forward their focus returns to storytelling. Destiny has a lot of potential.

So yes, I do feel Bungie has oversold the narrative aspects of both expansions, to a degree.

Fair enough. I will say this: while I expected SOME improvements from TDB and HoW, I was never really expecting major improvements. 3-5 story missions isn't a huge amount of time to try and tell an epic story. I DO expect a significantly better story from TTK because they have had a lot of time to work on it.

You and Cody have such a lack of imagination and such a poor grasp of the longer term connections and storytelling that Destiny is doing. You ignore and reduce and oversimplify actions and plot thread all so you can make your incorrect claims that nothing we did had any meaning. I think what the Exo Stranger said is the real truth of Destiny: "All endings are beginnings." Meaning that it's all connected and important, even if Bungie got off on the wrong foot.

I'm only going to reply to this, and it's tough because it's through text. I think I could express it better over Xbox Live so you could hear my tone and such, because I'm not trying to personally attack or insult you with this next bit. I don't know if you've ever learned to write (like actually taken writing courses, or learned about plot, structure, narrative, scripting, etc.), but to me it seems like you haven't.

Cody and I don't lack imagination. There actually is a process to writing and storytelling, and writers who fully understand these concepts can fully disregard them to make even more interesting and unique stories if done properly. As part of the writing process, there is an actual and true editing process as well when it comes to story and plot. Destiny the game does not appear to use any of it or show an understanding of any of it. And Cody and I are being pretty critical about it from that standpoint.

Now, the Grimoire on the other hand is freaking unbelievable. There's a reason for that. They actually hired people who genuinely know and understand how to write. Some have been doing it for years and years, some have been directly trained, etc. There's a reason why the Grimoire is absolutely fantastic whereas Destiny's "story" itself just isn't there.

So, don't mistake Cody and my own intent. We absolutely are dying for Destiny's story to exist and get better and rock. There's a ton of bad and wrong things about it, and we're calling it out, and we're not pulling punches. Please don't think of it as a lack of imagination or foresight. And please don't take any of this post personally. I have no idea what training or education or anything else you do or don't have on this topic; I'm just stating my own observation, and I mean absolutely no ill will. None. I'm really enjoying the conversations in this thread, and I think we all want Destiny's story to rock out.

- No text -

Your disregard for the story bit that have happened is just getting plain silly now.

- The Traveler had not been healing and might have even been dying thank to the Hive. We stopped their attacks.
- Eris and the five that went with her killed Crota (in our plane of existance) and put a decades long stop to his war against us.
- The Queen of the Awoken is in some sort of tense standoff with The Nine who actively worked to push Skolas to attack The Reef. We helped her with the House of Wolves because we owed her for helping us kill The Darkness in the Black Garden which had somehow prevented The Traveler for healing in the centuries since the end of the collapse.

a) This isn't "plot" or "narrative". It is "backstory" and "lore" (with the exception of the Hive draining the traveler's light). This is an important distinction. Lore is great for world building, but it has very little to do with the direct story.

b) None of this takes place in the game, or is communicated through the game. If all you do is play through Destiny, you won't know any of it. (again, excluding the bit about the hive draining the traveler).

I just wish they would stop telling us that they are going to do better with storytelling unless they are genuinely committed to making real, substantial, meaningful improvements. At this point I would almost rather hear them say "storytelling really isn't our focus with this game".

I think the latter is probably true is that their focus leading up to launch (and maybe through year one?) was probably not storytelling, but building a foundation. I really hope that going forward their focus returns to storytelling. Destiny has a lot of potential.

I certainly feel that way (about Destiny's story potential). The setting and lore is fantastic. i think that's why people get so worked up about this subject; we can see how much potential for amazing stories this game has :)

I think it's funny that I'm dead wrong, but you conclude on the fact that this stuff needs to happen in game. Which is Cody's point and mine. Nothing goes down in-game. If I could wipe the Grimoire from existence and from your memory and everyone else's, this entire conversation isn't even happening right now. Why? Because Destiny has no story or plot. Sorry dude. Bungie.net does, though!

You know your argument is in trouble if you have to start fictitiously wiping content from existence to prove your point. Come back when you're ready to discuss things as they actually are.

They mentioned thinks like more quests but my thinking was that even a good quest like Thorn's is not a major shift in storytelling. They do seem to be promising somewhat more with The Taken King but even there I don't think they've addressed story concerns as strongly as I would like them to.

I think it's funny that I'm dead wrong, but you conclude on the fact that this stuff needs to happen in game. Which is Cody's point and mine. Nothing goes down in-game. If I could wipe the Grimoire from existence and from your memory and everyone else's, this entire conversation isn't even happening right now. Why? Because Destiny has no story or plot. Sorry dude. Bungie.net does, though!

You know your argument is in trouble if you have to start fictitiously wiping content from existence to prove your point. Come back when you're ready to discuss things as they actually are.

Not when the content in contention is NOT IN THE GAME. You continue to defend Destiny's plot using information that is only available through the Grimoires. Do you not see how this is a faulty argument? A gamer who sits down and plays Destiny from start to finish is not presented any of that information. That is bad storytelling.

It's the same thing people have been saying for years about the Star Wars prequels ("if you read the books, the movies actually make sense"). Halo 4 fell in to the same trap. Now Destiny has done it as well, but to a further degree.

So when Avateur suggests forgetting about the Grimoire cards, he is making a good point. They are not part of Destiny the game. They are auxiliary content. There is no guarantee that a player will ever see them. Yet for Destiny's plot to have any weight, the player MUST be aware of that information.

See how this is a problem?

Personally, I think Destiny was made in large part to tell a bigger, more epic story and things like development delays forced them to ship a game that worked instead of a game that came with a fully realized story. I'll cite the talk that we got to see a few months ago where the Bungie employee that was talking mentioned it took them something like two years longer than they had expected to build the Destiny engine out from the Reach engine. They were happy with the engine they eventually ended up with, but it sounded like things like really building and implementing missions might have gotten held up which would lead to the great backstory, decent bones of a front story, but horrid implementation of that frontstory.

I think The Dark Below basically rolled out as is with maybe the patrol quests added in as a desperate measure to breath some more story into the game and that the House of Wolves did a much better job with story and set pieces (all the missions are just better designed and implemented, know what I mean?) but even still there wasn't a lot of time or budget to add in cutscenes and more than the planned Petra / Variks back and forth.

I have two big problems with what you've been arguing. (Not problems with you, problems with the arguments you are making):

1. You are wrongly diminishing and dismissing what story is in game. There's not much, not enough, but there are the bones of a good story. Even in the base game a set of plot points does progress logically forward where finding the Hive in the Cosmodrome leads to attacking them on the moon which leads you to be noticed by the Exo Stranger which leads to the Awoken which leads to Mars which leads to the Black Garden and The Darkness harming The Traveler. Is it well fleshed out? Are there a ton of great cutscenes or great mission dialogue? No. But I absolutely see the story as being there and as being more than kill things because we were told to.

2. You are treating Destiny's story as something that can only happen within the game. You're going so far as to talk about erasing the Grimoire from everyone's minds. When I talk to people seriously about Halo's story or Mass Effect's story or any game's story I would never limit myself to just the stuff that happened in game. Especially when the company that made the game at the same time made a fantastic resource that shipped with the game and was there to fill in the gaps for those that wanted to know more. Then, when anyone points out that the game actually does speak to the same plot points, just not in as much (or enough) detail, you say that all that happened in Destiny is people told us to do stuff for no reason.

We all agree that Destiny's storytelling was not up to par. But to say there is no story is never going to sit right with me because I can throw out the Grimoire and still make almost all the links and connections I argue for. And throwing out the Grimoire doesn't sit right with me because to me it is part of Destiny's story. Right now it is having to do perhaps double duty filling in for the game's initial poor storytellling and building the universe but I think that won't always be the case and that it's far more reasonable to speak of the game and Grimoire together than it is to separate them. If the Grimoire was merely stories of Destiny past that did not directly link to the present I'd say you have a point. But events in the Grimoire are referenced all the time and the Grimoire elaborates about events in game all the time. And because of that I strongly disagree that they should ever be separated.

(And like you, I intend no offense or insult. Just honest opinion of what I think happened and... uh... why I think you're wrong)

Your disregard for the story bit that have happened is just getting plain silly now.

- The Traveler had not been healing and might have even been dying thank to the Hive. We stopped their attacks.
- Eris and the five that went with her killed Crota (in our plane of existance) and put a decades long stop to his war against us.
- The Queen of the Awoken is in some sort of tense standoff with The Nine who actively worked to push Skolas to attack The Reef. We helped her with the House of Wolves because we owed her for helping us kill The Darkness in the Black Garden which had somehow prevented The Traveler for healing in the centuries since the end of the collapse.

a) This isn't "plot" or "narrative". It is "backstory" and "lore" (with the exception of the Hive draining the traveler's light). This is an important distinction. Lore is great for world building, but it has very little to do with the direct story.

But when it's very recent history, like the Awoken stopping the million strong House of Wolves from reenforcing the other houses at Twilight Gap, it become more relevant and not as easily dismissed. Especially since those facts are directly spoken of in game. Ultimately though, I am taking more of a "Destiny is not a game but a universe" approach...

b) None of this takes place in the game, or is communicated through the game. If all you do is play through Destiny, you won't know any of it. (again, excluding the bit about the hive draining the traveler).

Not true. Some of is spoken of directly. Some of it is gleaned through in game speech not directly related. And a tiny bit does have to be speculated, but speculated based directly on in game observations and knowledge:

- The Exo Stranger says in voiced dialogue in a cutscene that The Traveler will not begin to heal until we deal with the heart of the Black Garden. The time it hasn't been healing (decades from The Hive centuries from The Black Garden) I get from two sources: For decades, Eris isn't centuries old and there is some Tower chatter about the war on the moon. For centuries, when you first arrive at the Tower your Ghost tells you that The City took centuries to build an we know The Traveler would have been overhead all that time.
- In the opening The Dark Below cutscene Eris talks of six going down to face Crota and only herself surviving. That they killed Crota is the only good explanation for why he is being summoned back. I think there's other in game content (perhaps even voiced) to support them killing Crota but I'd have to listen to the mission dialogue (or Eris' ramblings!) again to get you an exact quote. But I do think I could. 99% sure. (I think Eris mentions that they killed Crota but the Hive caught his soul or something to that effect)
- Petra says Skolas was given to The Nine and expresses shock that he escaped them. I'd have to really look for in game support for her gifting Skolas to them in reparation for some offense, though. Perhaps in Reef chatter but I don't have a direct quote off in mind and am not sure I could find one. Maybe, but not at all sure.

See how this is a problem?

Yes. Except there is much much more directly spoken in the game, in the missions than he is giving Destiny credit for. And I believe I can still make most of my arguments only using in game sources as I showed in my other reply to you on this issue. And if there's something I can't source from in game I will admit it. In my view, Avateur is ignoring a lot of stuff that is said in game in his argument that there is no story.

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1. You are wrongly diminishing and dismissing what story is in game. There's not much, not enough, but there are the bones of a good story. Even in the base game a set of plot points does progress logically forward where finding the Hive in the Cosmodrome leads to attacking them on the moon which leads you to be noticed by the Exo Stranger which leads to the Awoken which leads to Mars which leads to the Black Garden and The Darkness harming The Traveler. Is it well fleshed out? Are there a ton of great cutscenes or great mission dialogue? No. But I absolutely see the story as being there and as being more than kill things because we were told to.

Yes, it works logically. But stories are meant to engage you EMOTIONALLY. A logical, airtight plot is stupid if you don't care about it or the characters. Destiny doesn't give you any way to emotionally engage, since motivations are unknown, and characters are thin and downright absent.

2. You are treating Destiny's story as something that can only happen within the game. You're going so far as to talk about erasing the Grimoire from everyone's minds.

Grimoire is backstory. We are talking about the main story here. The grimoire is not a story, nor is it a narrative.

We all agree that Destiny's storytelling was not up to par. But to say there is no story is never going to sit right with me because I can throw out the Grimoire and still make almost all the links and connections I argue for. And throwing out the Grimoire doesn't sit right with me because to me it is part of Destiny's story.

It is Destiny's BACKSTORY. What don't you get about that?

I think what's really happened is Destiny's story really is meant to play out over ten years and the lack of immediate payoff is intentional, though the poor storytelling in the first chapter (the base game) was not.

Not an excuse. TV shows that run multiple years are enjoyable from the very first episode. You've got to get it right immediately.

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There seems to be a major disconnect here that goes back to what I was wondering about if you know how stories are crafted. The in-game conversations you keep citing still amount to backstory and are rarely impactful in the "now" of the game. It also amounts to telling and not showing. Just because certain events happen in a game in some sort of point A leads to point B leads to point C etc. order, it does not imply that the game also carries with it a story and plot.

See how this is a problem?

Yes. Except there is much much more directly spoken in the game, in the missions than he is giving Destiny credit for. And I believe I can still make most of my arguments only using in game sources as I showed in my other reply to you on this issue. And if there's something I can't source from in game I will admit it. In my view, Avateur is ignoring a lot of stuff that is said in game in his argument that there is no story.

I think part of the problem here is a bit of a semantic one. Here's the way the discussion reads to me: you are saying "Destiny has a story. This happens, then this, then this, etc".

If I understand correctly, Avateur is making the argument (and I mostly agree) that "stuff happening" does not make a story. In the classic sense, a story needs driving force, goals, motivations, conflicts. It needs an arch with a beginning, middle, and end.

I feel that Destiny manages to scratch the surface on enough of these points to say "yes, Destiny has a story". But just barely. It's about on the level as my day today: I got up, went a few places, stuff happened. Not much of a story lol

Correct. You're willing to give it more credit than I am, which is fine. And the entire backstory of this universe seems to be what's being used as evidence of there being a story in the game itself as it's happening, but that's just not the case (as you have already pointed out in your posts, or as I have, or as Cody has).