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Hard Light is gonna rock more you mean. I already love that gun! I hope the shots bounce three times as that would be just crazy fun for holding the B tunnel on Shores of Time. :)

But, seriously, I do think they're going a bit in the wrong direction with Fusion Rifles. They don't (and won't even after the update) do nearly enough damage in PvE to justify giving up my Invective, and the usability to ammo ratio in the Crucible just feel off. If nothing else they need to hold a bit more ammo...

I think you are right here. We may need to let this play out and find out that Light In The Abyss may become actually useful if they increase the accuracy enough. Let's withold judgement on this one. To me, this one is the most opaque on how it will play, but tend to agree with you here.

For starters, I think this is a good change overall to the weapon base. I don't fully understand the pulse rifle changes, but they seem more... sideways than a nerf. Autos needed a buff. Exotics are, per usual, more exotic and it sounds like we will have some new winners. I agree with you that fusions will be hit and miss now -- it remains to be seen just how much so vs the new shotgun ranges. Fusion rifles have a special place, if they can fill a niche that shottys can't, and I guess that remains to be seen. I'm amazed gjallarhorn has survived this long -- it does pretty well double the damage of other RL's, and now it'll only get 150% -- it'll still be more than the rest.

For scout rifles though... they're making them worse short range, where they already struggle. They're in many cases about on par with using a sniper already at very close range, other than maybe fang of ir yut, which is the only scout I know of that works okay at close range. They are practically useless from the hip already, and that's only going to get worse. It's possible that they are not awful from the hip long range, but I've certainly never used them that way, so maybe I'm missing out on something fun. =)

The damage buff for PvE means they'll likely keep up with the same ratio of damage (bullets per kill) that they've had previously. I've noticed enemy health has gone up much faster than damage for scout rifles, and has been a pseudo-nerf at higher levels. So with this they'll likely feel about the same as they do now at high levels -- pretty good mid-long and long range, too slow or inaccurate anything closer than mid-range. Which is where 75% of the game plays, so they continue to be situational.

I don't understand why they have gone towards less impact than hand cannons -- with the goals as they are they fill the same basic slot at differing ranges, so why the impact disparity? Their goals are almost identical:

Scout Goals:
1- Scout Rifles are the best Primary Weapon for long range engagements
2- Scout Rifles perform best when landing paced precision shots
3- Rate of Fire and Optics are tuned so that Scout Rifles are a little harder to use effectively close in

HC Goals:
1- Hand Cannons are optimal at close to medium range
2- Hand Cannons are optimal when shots are paced, but become less effective when fired quickly
3- Rewards agility under fire, precision targeting, and snap shots
4- Hand Cannons cannot reliably compete with Scout Rifles at long range

1 and 4 cancel each other out, so we're left with 2 and 2 (which say basically the same thing). Hand cannons get #3, which is where end game content lives. Scouts are just plain inferior in everything other than clip size and long range. It's not enough, especially for challenging content.

It'll be interesting to see clip sizes of hand cannons after this all drops, as that is what could ultimately make or break things for me. But I expect to be using hand cannons over scouts still most of the time, much to my disappointment. I hope they continue to look at and tune things going forward. Depending on clip size, and short range scout nerfs, I may even be using a pulse rifle. ick! =)

"Hey guys, remember when we made it so only high Impact, long Range FRs were viable? Well now they suck just as much as the others. Equality!"

I'm a little sad for Gjallarhorn. I was hoping they'd just tell the wolfpack round to not track the nearest target. That would make it useful for clearing groups of weak enemies but stop it from being the boss ender that it was. Oh well. I didn't use mine much anyways!

I can now 100% guarantee I will never use that gun unless the free ammo gets put back. I have other snipers I can use that are better in literally every way except impact, where they are tied. However, it is clear Bungie thinks how we use Black Hammer is not how they intended to to be used. I understand where they are coming from. It whiffs of unfairness.

That 5 second --> 8 second recharge time might be killer in the cheese the oracles segment! Maybe people might have to start doing it right for a change! :p

Nowadays people tend to use VoC for that it's got the Oracle buff and long scope. More than enough to do the whole thing. :P

That 5 second --> 8 second recharge time might be killer in the cheese the oracles segment! Maybe people might have to start doing it right for a change! :p

The PS4 DBO Crew has no problem doing it legit. We don't hide during legions and we kill oracles from the bottom of the well ;-p

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Icebreaker 4 lyfe

Yeah, that one really hurts. Especially since I just got it. I don't see much point in the perk if it deplete your ammo reserves.

I thought Black Hammer was actually Bungie's way of addressing bad Strike bosses. Extremely useful in very specific situations. Now what is it good for?

Meh.

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Yeah, it really nerfs it for PvP -- but that was sorely needed and will be a very valuable change.

As if millions of try-hards' Efrideets suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly sharded. I feel something wonderful has happened.

I have spent hundreds of hours acquiring these weapons and getting materials to reforge weapons to perks that are actually helpful.

No surprise the collector gets more upset about the collecting. :P.

But hey! Great excuse for Field Scout + Surplus rolls! Wait a minute. :(

Final round only procs on precision shots? That makes the perk completely useless for PvP now as a precision shot is already a one shot kill. Not too excited about the changes as I have spent hundreds of hours acquiring these weapons and getting materials to reforge weapons to perks that are actually helpful.

At least give us a replacement trade off perk like they described. This new final round is a slap in the face. It does make the spear fit the ridiculous pattern... iron banner loot is better for PVE than PVP.

I'm not clear on another part either-- are the changes to perks across the board and across all of a given weapon type going to apply to currently-held weapons?

Given that a lot of this is specifically targeting vanilla Destiny weapons, and you can't actually get those any more, I'm leaning toward yes.

I'm looking VERY nervously at my TDYK. I hope the mag size doesn't go down too much. I'm not super worried about the range changes, because I think I'll still be able to use it much the same outside of edge cases. But having less bullets es no bueno. Hopefully it's just 1 or 2 less.

Maybe it just goes to show chasing after the one most popular set of perks isn't always the way to go. Or if something seems overpowered then you really shouldn't count on it staying that way forever.

They've been pushing us to collect field scout, final round, and hand cannons, and now they say "Wait, we take that back! The guns you spent hours upon hours acquiring are too powerful.”

I understand players deciding that those perks are desirable, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that Bungie has been “pushing us to collect” weapons with those perks. We, as a player base, certainly have a hive mind of our own when it comes to these sort of things, which I think is a much greater driving force in that decision-making.

These changes could make 1/2 the guns in my vault trash. They've been pushing us to collect field scout, final round, and hand cannons, and now they say "Wait, we take that back! The guns you spent hours upon hours acquiring are too powerful." Hmm, maybe I should be happy because now I have no reason to save these LDRs and Spears. At the same time, ugh!

They haven't been pushing you to do that. The end result of them failing to make sure things were balanced was a situation that made those things desirable, but that's not them pushing you.

These changes could make 1/2 the guns in my vault trash. They've been pushing us to collect field scout, final round, and hand cannons, and now they say "Wait, we take that back! The guns you spent hours upon hours acquiring are too powerful." Hmm, maybe I should be happy because now I have no reason to save these LDRs and Spears. At the same time, ugh!

They've been pushing us into Final Round and Field Scout so hard that they took it out of the game to encourage us chasing them!

I think the FR nerf was pretty telegraphed. I can't believe anyone is upset or sirprised by that their borderline-cheating perk has been nerfed. Or rather, I can, but I didn't expect it here on DBO. Final Round always felt like it was intended to be a primarily PvE perk, and I guess Bungie felt the same because now it's gone back to that.

Field Scout is a little more sad, but I think I have 3 weapons with it that I'll really miss it on (LDR, Swarm, Jolder's Hammer), and I kind understand why the latter two would have it removed, even if FS really fits in with the spirit of LMGs. Most of the time there are other perks I use instead (Explosive Rounds, Increased Stability, Tripod, High Caliber Rounds). I still feel like Snipers should be able to roll FS, but we don't even know how much of a nerf it will be yet, and no matter what at least it won't be Casket Mag *shudder*.

These changes could make 1/2 the guns in my vault trash. They've been pushing us to collect field scout, final round, and hand cannons, and now they say "Wait, we take that back! The guns you spent hours upon hours acquiring are too powerful." Hmm, maybe I should be happy because now I have no reason to save these LDRs and Spears. At the same time, ugh!

I'm just sad I will never get to experience that 212 Hawkmoon one shot kill from the giving end (why not leave that in on PvE)?. People were already saying it was good but not great, and it just got worse.

I've given up. I'll go on without it, to much resentment though.

I'm thinking they're cutting my dps by about 10%. My guns with mods that are being nerfed:
- Fatebringer x 3 (field scout)
- Oversould Edict (field scout)
- Fulcrum (final round)
- Timur's Lash (field scout)
- Epilogue (field scout)
- LDR (final round)
- LDR (field scout)
- Spear (final round)
- Spear (field scout)
- Found Verdict x 3 (final round)
- Party Crasher (rangefinder)
- Icebreaker x 3
- Invective (final round)
- Swordbreaker (final round)
- Black Hammer (white nail)
- Gjallarhorn x 2 (wolfpack)
- Thunderlord x 2 (field scout)
- Against All Odds (field scout)
- Jolder's Hammer x 2 (field scout)
- Corrective Measure x 3 (field scout)
- Fear (horseshoes)

Neutral
- Vision of Confluence (field scout), Fang of Ir Yut (field scout) - I expect these to even out with the scout rifle ammo bump

Guns that have gotten better:
- Lord of Wolves (recovery)
- Hard Light (it will probably still be bad)
- Nechrocasm
- No Land Beyond
- Assorted scout rifles and auto rifles that I've kept around but never used

Here we go. I know, 10% isn't a lot, but this is how it starts. Before you know it, we're back down to Shotguns being PvE pee shooters.

The Final Round perk on Sniper Rifles should still require precision shots

While I could care less about Final Round, as that perk to me is laughable(1 single extra point of damage), unoudid is right, that defeats the purpose.

What are you talking about, it gives you a lot more than 1 point of damage extra.

Grenades and Horseshoes proximity detonation reduced.

I guess if I go into Crucible again, I'll get killed 20 feet away from the explosion instead of 21.

What are you talking about (again), changing that changes how close you have to be for the rocket to explode.

Hard Light Changes:
Increase base Stability to 80 (was 65)
Increase bounce count for Hard Light projectiles
Hard Light projectiles are not affected by Damage Falloff

...and the increase to the actual damage or impact of that Auto Rifle itself will be....how much?

...whatever it said in the auto rifle section?

Thorn Changes:
Reduce base damage of Thorn’s Mark of the Devourer DoT (Damage over Time) to roughly 1/3 of what it was in PVP and PVE

Why in PvE?!? How is it possibly balanced to neuter that in single-player? What, are the Vandals and Minotaurs ragequitting missions and posting angry threads in Reddit?

Yes, I know it's a nightmare in Crucible--believe me, I was constantly rolling between that, Red Death and Bad Juju(ALL in the top 10, by the way)--but the campaign is just computers. Why cripple the gun in THAT part of the game? Who the hell cares?

They must think it was making things too easy.

We’ve all done it. Hunker down in the back of the map with your lunch box, picnic table, a sci-fi paperback, and Ice Breaker. Kill all the enemies, wait for more to show up, kill those ones too, put a few shots on the boss, make a sandwich, finish the strike, and then collect your reward-that-isn’t-Hawkmoon and move on.

No, I have not.

No, I DO not.

And not a single Icebreaker owner I've ever met since October does that either. Don't you categorize me with those assholes who camp and AFK their way through strikes.

I don't care if I've beaten Sepiks Prime 100 times, I'll do it again and willingly.

It's not just strikes, people do the same kind of thing in the Crucible.

So now, there is literally nothing I can do to contribute to kneeling Crota. Not a goddamn thing. I guess I'll just point--maybe that will distract him.

or you could get good

If Destiny had a nuke it would be the “Ballerhorn.” We definitely intended to have a high damage Heavy Weapon that was ideal for PvE destruction. What we did not intend, and what we unfortunately saw, was pick up Raid and Nightfall groups gating participation based on whether or not players had this weapon. Gallonhorn was so strong that for many people it had become the only answer to getting through tough encounters, and therefore they were less willing to spend time with other players that didn’t have it. We strive for Destiny to be a place where a single weapon or strategy does not dictate how, or with whom, you spend your time. In the new world Ljimperhorn is still worthy of its legacy as an exotic Heavy Weapon, but we hope it promotes inclusive behavior rather than exclusivity.

Well, I mean, you know how to fix that though, right? You...you know what the solution is for...for something like that, right? Y'know? Perhaps maybe? Crazily? Here's an idea:

MAKE THEM MORE AVAILABLE!!

No, that's the opposite of what they want. They don't want it to be that easy. I did a nightfall with a Gjallarhorn user (or two) a few weeks ago. I expected the last fight to take up to an hour. By all rights it probably should have. It was over before I could fire off two magazines from my sniper. That's a broken encounter, because of one gun-- and that was Valus Ta'aurc, the one they thought had too much health at the time!

Maybe not giving me the weapon I just killed the boss with in Nightfall, or the armor I literally have equipped nearly 24/7!

No. Let's make it weaker. So now, LFG groups will be even MORE exclusive, looking for only a full party of maxed out horns--Level 34 or higher, plz! That's a step backwards.

What are you talking about (part III: the revenge), they already do that, now they'll have less reason to.

"Troll" me, critique me, pick my post apart--whatever.

Gotchya covered. Hope you don't take it personally.

It's poison effect is getting a PvE buff. On tough targets (anything that takes more than 3 shots to kill) it will be doing more poison damage than it does now. Up to 1.5x more.

I think Vagueness did a pretty good job picking you apart, but just thought I'd chime in with how ridiculous that whole post was. How did you manage to complain about a Thorn buff in PvE? How is an extra 18 seconds of recharge time enough to make you dismantle your infinite ammo, recharging sniper rifle?

How is nerfing Black Hammer, Ghallarhorn or Ice Breaker preventing you from downing Crota? Why are you shooting him with Black Hammer of all things in the first place? How is it taking you more than 6 Icebreaker shots or 1 rocket each (regardless of whether it's Gjallarhorn) to down him? Are you the only person shooting at him?

They nerfed Grenades and Horseshoes and you've decided without even seeing it or being told specifics that the nerf isn't enough?

Your whole post smacks of " CHANGE IS BAD, THE END IS NIGH" despite a lot of these changes seemingly being for the better.

#migwasright

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I share most of your sentiments. Shaking things up is probably good, but I wish they'd just say, "We're going to mess with everything just to make the game fresh again" instead of implying that we've been playing the game wrong by using the best perks.

Very close range: Shotguns are king, hand cannons and fusion rifles effective
Close Range: Hand cannons are king, shotguns and fusion rifles effective
Mid range: ARs are king, pulse rifles, scout rifles, hand cannons effective
Long Range: Scout Rifles are king, pulse rifles and sniper rifles effective. I don't think the hand cannon nerfs go far enough, so hand cannons may still be effective at long ranges as well.
Very Long Range: Sniper Rifles are king, scout rifles and pulse rifles effective

I think you've mixed up hand cannons and ARs. Even now, hand cannons are not great up close, except the Last Word. Hand cannons are best when you aim shots and crit, and that's very hard to do up close.