The Icebreaker Nerf is Actually Pretty Clever (Destiny)

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Friday, July 17, 2015, 16:56 (3517 days ago)

Woah there fella! I know you're hurting, but there's no need for that kind of language.

Icebreaker's a pretty cool gun, and there's a lot of anger and upset at the moment about the coming update and how it's going to be affected. And don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you they haven't nerfed it or anything like that. But looking at their stated goals, and the specific mechanics for No Backpack, I think the Icebreaker nerf is actually pretty damn clever.

Oh, and don't worry. There will be maths.


The Nerf
So in case you don't know yet, Icebreaker is being nerfed. But not in the conventional sense that Auto Rifles or the Mythoclast were nerfed. Icebreaker won't deal reduced damage, it isn't going to be harder to aim, and it will still make that cool-ass 'pseew, pseew' noise.

Instead, the No Backpack perk is being changed. Instead of regenerating a single round of ammunition every 5 seconds, it will take 8. That might sound like a lot (60% longer!), but because the base stats haven't been changed, the difference is less than you might think.

Burst DpS vs. Sustained DpS
Because the base stats are unchanged, an Icebreaker 2.0 with a full magazine of 6 rounds will deal exactly the same damage as the OG Icebreaker. The burst DpS is the same - if you're picking on single targets here and there or unloading a few quick rounds into a Major Knight's face, nothing much will change.

But what about when you empty your magazine? That's when the nerf comes into play. The longer recharge time reduces your Sustained DpS, with the effect of the nerf working on a sliding scale - the more rounds you wait for, the more pronounced the nerf, starting at 0% and trending towards 37.5%.

Some benchmarks:

  • 0 Seconds: 6 shots vs. 6 Shots - 0% Nerf
  • 40 Seconds: 14 shots vs. 11 shots - 21.4% Nerf
  • 80 Seconds: 22 Shots vs. 16 Shots - 27.2% Nerf
  • 120 Seconds: 30 Shots vs. 21 Shots - 30% Nerf
  • 160 Seconds: 38 Shots vs. 26 Shots - 31.5% Nerf
  • 400 Seconds: 86 Shots vs. 56 Shots - 34.88% Nerf

As you can see, the longer you're stood with your Icebreaker out, waiting for ammo, the worse the nerf will affect you, and the poorer your sustained DpS will be.

The Clever Bit
"But that's not very clever", I hear you say. "They've just increased the Reload Time. That would decrease the sustained DpS of any weapon". And it's true for every other weapon - imagine if they doubled the Reload Time of Gjallarhorn?* Just a direct Sustained DpS dropoff because of all that time spent reloading.

"But that's the clever part" I say.

Icebreaker's signiature perk (the real one, because we all know it's not 'Icebreaker') No Backpack regenerates ammunition passively. Where slower reloads on any other weapon would cause your sustained DpS to drop off permanently because they need to be reloaded before you can use them again, Icebreaker will refill itself while you switch to another weapon.

Instead of waiting around with your Icebreaker scoped in, wasting potential DpS, you can switch to your other weapon, keep firing (and keeping your DpS up), then come back to a gun that's miraculously reloaded itself.

If you use your Icebreaker in bursts, instead of trying to use it as your primary and only source of damage:
A)This nerf won't affect you
B)Your DpS will actually increase!

And what have Bungie said in regards to this nerf?

We’ve all done it. Hunker down in the back of the map with your lunch box, picnic table, a sci-fi paperback, and Ice Breaker. Kill all the enemies, wait for more to show up, kill those ones too, put a few shots on the boss, make a sandwich, finish the strike, and then collect your reward-that-isn’t-Hawkmoon and move on.

[...] a really great thing happens when all of a sudden you need Ice Breaker and you’re still waiting on that next round to show up. In that moment there is an interesting tension at play; you need to think about how you spend your next few seconds while it recharges. We are going to amplify that tension by increasing the recharge duration by a few seconds.

Yep. Their goals are to prevent you from sitting at a safe distance plinking away at the enemy, and to make you think about your actions in the downtime between ammo regen. Well now if you want to maintain your DpS you need to be utilising that downtime better, and to do that you need to be closer to the action. Check and check.

Pretty clever, if you ask me.

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Had the same thought, completely agree.

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, July 17, 2015, 16:59 (3517 days ago) @ someotherguy

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The Icebreaker Nerf is Actually Pretty Clever

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Friday, July 17, 2015, 17:04 (3517 days ago) @ someotherguy

Pretty clever, if you ask me.

According to reddit, this nerf put it up to roughly the same ammo regen Invective (in PvE) at 1 ammo/8s for IB and 1 ammo/7.5s for Invective.

AND you have to have invective equipped for it to work. Makes sense to me really.

Wait, you have to be holding Invective?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Friday, July 17, 2015, 17:05 (3517 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

That doesn't seem right?

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Wait, you have to be holding Invective?

by Funkmon @, Friday, July 17, 2015, 17:06 (3517 days ago) @ someotherguy

Wait. You don't need to have Invective equipped for it to work, do you? I don't think so. I have distinct memories of being pleasantly surprised with a full thing in crucible when I didn't pick up special. The timing seems about right.

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Wait, you have to be holding Invective?

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Friday, July 17, 2015, 17:14 (3517 days ago) @ Funkmon

Wait. You don't need to have Invective equipped for it to work, do you? I don't think so. I have distinct memories of being pleasantly surprised with a full thing in crucible when I didn't pick up special. The timing seems about right.

I'm pretty sure you do (though looking at the original post I don't see them mentioning that). Also, you can pick up ammo still for this gun so that could have been it as well.

It's hard to say because it takes so freaking long to regenerate ammo.

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Wait, you have to be holding Invective?

by Chewbaccawakka @, The Great Green Pacific Northwest!, Friday, July 17, 2015, 17:19 (3517 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Invective does take a long time to regen, but it's one of my favorite guns in the game. I've used it a bunch, and I feel pretty confident saying that it doesn't need to be in your hands to regen ammo. (Unless it's been changed in a patch?)

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Agreed.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, July 17, 2015, 17:43 (3517 days ago) @ Chewbaccawakka

Invective will refill itself even if you're holding a primary or heavy. It just takes a while to get any ammo so it's sometimes hard to notice. Just tested it too. Starting out at 0/0 it gained shots up to the maximum of 15 even though I had a hand cannon out. But, unlike Ice Breaker, you do have to put the shells in since it's not as magic a gun. :)

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Clarification on Invective

by BeardFade ⌂, Portland, OR, Friday, July 17, 2015, 20:36 (3517 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Invective recharges differently, it gives you 4 rounds every 30 seconds rather than 1 round every 7.5seconds. The math is both accurate and misleading.

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Like all math, really.

by Funkmon @, Saturday, July 18, 2015, 05:38 (3516 days ago) @ BeardFade

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I agree 100%.

by Funkmon @, Friday, July 17, 2015, 17:05 (3517 days ago) @ someotherguy

it will still make that cool-ass 'pseew, pseew' noise.

You forgot the QUACK at the end of it, though. PEEEEEeeewwww QUACK.

And, you know what, in the situations where it is needed, like a solar burn nightfall with no good solar sniper and you need to pick off a tank, you can still use it. It will take longer, but you can still definitely use it. So they have not removed the functionality in any way. For virtually all practical uses it is still fine, too. It just gives you an incentive to take the fight in a non campy way.

For example, the aksor nightfall. Many people just park themselves at the top and Icebreaker all the bad guys. That's generally not fun, and now you're discouraged. However, if you are underleveled and NEED to use that strategy, Icebreaker is still there for you and is still your friend. It doesn't lower your efficacy in any way. You will die no more times, you will kill no fewer people with the same number of hits.

You're just going to have to wait a little longer while it reloads. Grand scheme of things? No big deal.

Though I don't see much complaining about the Ice Breaker perk except for Morpheus, but I think he might have been joking.

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The Icebreaker Nerf is Actually Pretty Clever

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, July 17, 2015, 17:13 (3517 days ago) @ someotherguy

It works as a nerf because it doesn't fundamentally change the way the gun works. It's still the same old icebreaker, just with a slightly longer recharge time. This must have been a PvP nerf, since I don't think I've used Icebreaker in PvE since January.

Contrast this with the Black Hammer nerf, which completely changes the behavior of the gun. If Bungie felt it was overpowered, then it should not have touched the gun itself, but changed the situations in which it is useful. For instance, perhaps it should take more to stun bosses. Stunlocking bosses with Black Hammer was very powerful, but so was doing it with another sniper. Prevent that, and while the gun is still good, it's no longer completely dominating.

Further look at the bosses where it is not useful. Valus. Undying mind. They could absolutely design future boss counters to mitigate Black Hammer without touching the gun.

That is both less intrusive, and less unsatisfying.

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The Icebreaker Nerf is Actually Pretty Clever

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Friday, July 17, 2015, 17:17 (3517 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Further look at the bosses where it is not useful. Valus. Undying mind. They could absolutely design future boss counters to mitigate Black Hammer without touching the gun.

That is both less intrusive, and less unsatisfying.

By changing the bosses to mitigate Black Hammer, you might affect other weapons and that just makes it harder to balance things.

I don't like the Blacker Hammer change, but at least I understand it.

Not to mention, for most bosses, if you stun-lock a boss, you STILL get 16 head shots and with Black Hammer, that is a TON of damage.

The Icebreaker Nerf is Actually Pretty Clever

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Friday, July 17, 2015, 17:23 (3517 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Not to mention, for most bosses, if you stun-lock a boss, you STILL get 16 head shots and with Black Hammer, that is a TON of damage.

Yeah, I don't feel like they have a problem with us stunlocking bosses. In fact, BH should still be pretty good for that. You just won't be able to do it forever like you can now.

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The Icebreaker Nerf is Actually Pretty Clever

by Schedonnardus, Texas, Friday, July 17, 2015, 17:33 (3517 days ago) @ Cody Miller

solutions:

make black hammer an exotic.

keep white nail, but lower the reserve ammo. missing crits now carries a heavier price (esp on PoE rounds/nightfall with juggler)

change white nail to the perk that returns one round to the magazine. now you get 4 shots with 3 crits. then you have to reload. reloading breaks the stun mechanic. Or return 2 rounds to the mag, that way you would still only have enough ammo in the mag to trigger it once before reloading.

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Should have been 7 second regen, because 7.

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Friday, July 17, 2015, 18:46 (3517 days ago) @ someotherguy

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The Icebreaker Nerf is Actually Pretty Clever

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Saturday, July 18, 2015, 21:57 (3515 days ago) @ someotherguy

I'm following all of this except "dps will actually increase ".

The Icebreaker Nerf is Actually Pretty Clever

by Claude Errera @, Saturday, July 18, 2015, 22:42 (3515 days ago) @ Vortech

I'm following all of this except "dps will actually increase ".

I think he meant because instead of sitting there with your Icebreaker, waiting for new ammo, you actively swap out to a primary that does damage, so instead of 0 dps during charge times, you're doing whatever the primary does.

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The Icebreaker Nerf is Actually Pretty Clever

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, July 19, 2015, 00:38 (3515 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I'm following all of this except "dps will actually increase ".


I think he meant because instead of sitting there with your Icebreaker, waiting for new ammo, you actively swap out to a primary that does damage, so instead of 0 dps during charge times, you're doing whatever the primary does.

Vision of Confluence is a pretty good primary to use when you are waiting for icebreaker. Long range, and same element :-)

<span class="spoiler">Testing Spoilers</span>

Exactly this

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Sunday, July 19, 2015, 01:03 (3515 days ago) @ Claude Errera

If you're already switching out, then your DpS won 't increase. What I should have said was that by switching weapons if you don't already, your DpS will increase compared to using 5-second Icebreaker on it's own.

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