Mini Rant: Big Problem! No two guns are ever the same.

This is in response to a post by cheapLEY in the "A great idea, actually..." sub-thread.

You know the easiest way to fix this right? All they have to do is get rid of random perks. Make every version of Party Crasher exactly the same. Every version of All Fate is the same, etc. Every gun will be exactly the same as everyone else's gun.

I think that would go a long way toward making every gun feel unique, and everyone would know exactly what they're going up against.

To keep variety up, just have more guns as loot.

I like this idea. Weapons are a sort-of information overload for me. There are entirely too many with entirely too many combinations of perks. What makes 2 weapons with different names any different from each other when EACH FREAKING GUN EVEN WITH THE SAME NAME IS UNIQUE?

I had an interesting experience last night while running the VoG. Someone (Cyber, Vortech? I forget which.) mentioned to me, "Hey, I have that exact same sniper rifle as you, the scopes are different, but it's essentially the same gun, oh and it's void damage, not Solar." Aside from Exotics & Vendor weapons, when does that ever happen? Never! There are over 60,000 different possible rolls on the FINAL BOSS (over 80k if kinetic damage is a possibility, not sure if it is).

Another interesting thing I heard when someone got a drop (paraphrased):
Person A: "Hey, I just got a X, is it any good?"
Person B: "It's decent."
Person C: "Well, what are the perks? It might be good, it might not be."

How is it that a NAMED GUN might be good or might be bad? It should just be known. I think that's part of what makes the raid weapons nice, you know that they will be good or not without having to see if you got lucky with the roll on it.

Back to the vast number of possible rolls on guns. TDYK can have over 7000 different rolls, Final Rest II (Fusion rifle) has over 552k possible rolls (if it can any of the 3 damage types, not including kinetic). Multiply these by the number of different guns and you have a CRAZY HUGE number of test cases when thinking about weapon balance. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY to test this by hand. The only way to test is to run simulations with each combination of gun and look for outliers, but really, your simulation better be shockingly good for this to work, and it even then it won't find strategies like emptying to the final round shot that found success in ToO.

I'm not against perks, or having random rolls, but it should really be toned down to the point where the name of the gun actually has meaning. Comments like, "Matador 64, Party Crasher +1? Well, they're good if they have X perks" shouldn't exist IMHO. It should be "Matador 64? Sweet shotgun!"

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And It's even worse now that we're starting to get guns that look the same, and are named the same, but differ in Archetype.

Example:
Silimars's Wrath

Silimars's Wrath

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Was blue with high attack rating (257?) and stupid HFR. Now purple with LFR. Same name. It's a mystery!

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I'm with you. In this area of Destiny I feel overwhelmed.

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This allows you to do basically whatever you want with your guns. You get one of an archetype you like and perks you like and now you have a perfect gun.

Bungle would never sell a clown cartridge field scout surplus efrideets spear, but it is my most prized sniper rifle. An outlaw+crowd control hand cannon? Not gonna happen.

This allows certain combinations to be good for you and your gameplay that would not have shown up in a stock gun. You can have the best possible guns for you when they are all different.

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This allows you to do basically whatever you want with your guns. You get one of an archetype you like and perks you like and now you have a perfect gun.

... If you can afford it. Players who invest more time grinding now have a distinct competitive advantage. I have no problem with that when it comes to PvE content, but it kind of ruins PvP for me.

Bungle would never sell a clown cartridge field scout surplus efrideets spear, but it is my most prized sniper rifle. An outlaw+crowd control hand cannon? Not gonna happen.

Why not? We got a hand cannon with outlaw, firefly, explosive rounds, and arc damage. We got a rocket launcher with tracking and Wolfpack rounds. And a Pulse Rifle with 3rd eye, perfect balance, and headseeker. Bungie has shown they are willing to create guns with perk combos that dominate in certain senarios.

This allows certain combinations to be good for you and your gameplay that would not have shown up in a stock gun. You can have the best possible guns for you when they are all different.

I would rather achieve that goal by designing specific guns for specific perk-selections. There should be a gun to suit any playstyle... Right now, almost every gun can suit any playstyle. It all feels pointless to me. Why would I buy a new weapon when I'm just going to reroll it to be the same as the one I already have?

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No, even before. Besides those guns, I had a Field Scout Vanquisher with crowd control, a 2TTM with Field Scout and full auto, a Zombie Apocalypse I liked, and so on. I have a full set.

And those guns are raid level guns. That is very different. Raid guns SHOULD be very good. Without random chance all we would be using are raid guns.

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IMO, Raid-level weapons should be the best in the game. Why put so much challenge, time, and energy into earning guns that are worse than what you can get through the vendors?

Look at what's happened with House of Wolves: the common opinion is that Prison of Elders rewards are simply not worth the time, since you can already re-roll vendor weapons to be significantly better than anything available through PoE. Even the raid weapons are largely outclassed, with a few exceptions.

Vendor weapons should be good, with options available to suit many scenarios and playstyles. Raid-level guns (this includes Trials of Osiris weapons) should be the best of the best, without exception (IMO).

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As annoying as the Rule of the Exotic Hand Cannons can be, there is 1 benefit to seeing game after game filled with Thorns and Last Words: clarity. I know exactly what I'm up against. One of the most frustrating things about all the shotgun spam going around is the doubt that comes up every time I die to one: did he just outplay me? Or does his Felwinter just have a better roll than mine does? That SUCKS, and should never be something you need to worry about in a competitive game.

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I think a solution to this, would be to remove all weapon perks while in a competitive PVP match. NOT ALL matches mind you. But this would fix the Final Round issue we are having in Trials.

Maybe leave the stat changing perks, like hand laid stock or flared magwell, but get rid of the shot package, range finder, perks like those.

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I agree that having random perks has watered down the weapons some, and homogenized them. I think it's actually a good first step, if a little chaotic, and from this week's BWU they're going to take it further. I hope it's an improvement.

Really, what you are asking for is the standard RPG random generated names, where you get names like "Spider slaying sword of fire" or "leather headband of agility". I really don't see that happening for all weapons, and I'm glad bungie is working to solve this head on. I'm interested to see what they come up with to solve this information gap.

Exotics and certain weapons will be not random, like they are now, but I think that's going to be the more rare case, much like the super named weapons in more traditional MMO/RPGs that are specific items and not randomized. When you talk about hawkmoon, you'll be talking about a specific gun with specific perks still.

I think The hierarchy is going to go something like archetype, then manufacturer, then perks and then modifications (like etheric light).

From the BWU, it appears that some manufacturers will have better overall stats, but less perks on their guns, and others that will vary much more widely due to more perks, but smaller base stats. Expect to see things with "perfect" rolls still, but it won't be as random, and more work will be involved.

I won't be surprised if we see guns become more component-like. You'll pick out of the hierarchy, the type, manufacurer will be the "base" gun. Then you'll customize it with parts bought from the gunsmith, xur, rep vendor's and items found or quested to make it your own. I'd guess that, like we see now, weapons will be increasingly better as you progress through the content. Currently the HoW rep items are (mostly) junk compared to the raid weapons, as are the basic prison of elder's weapons, we're already seeing that progression through the content matters. I expect that vanguard stock will be ~75% effective, faction weapons will be 80-85%, raid weapons will be ~85-90% and you'll need to customize them from there in different directions to get any one weapon to be "best in class" for a given perk. Anyhow, thinking something similar to FF VII's materia system, but a little more permanent. They already do this for upgrading sparrows, I think this will be extended to weapons as we go forward.

To get to 100% in any one area you'll be sacrificing a lot, probably unreasonably so. They're already prepping people for trade-offs, and you won't be getting weapons like TDYK that are basically legendary almost-hawkmoons. You'll have to pick a playstyle and then further pick your pros and cons.

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From the BWU, it appears that some manufacturers will have better overall stats, but less perks on their guns, and others that will vary much more widely due to more perks, but smaller base stats. Expect to see things with "perfect" rolls still, but it won't be as random, and more work will be involved.

I'm not sure it's even necessarily "smaller" stats as much as it is more even stats. Evenly distributed, rather than having a couple of super-high stats. Either way could be good depending on what class of weapon we're talking about.

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I get why Destiny bombard you with so much choice. It's all purposeful and manipulative.

There's a principle, where the more choice someone has, the less satisfied they ultimately are. Imagine you can choose from two Vacuum cleaners. You look at them, decide which is better, and buy the better one. You might down the line have second thoughts, but when you think back, you can clearly see you made the better choice.

But if you have a hundred Vacuum cleaners to choose from, you have second thoughts, but then go over the endless combinations of attachments and models from the other 99. You can no longer tell with certainty that 'this one I got is the best', because there is so much choice, and so many factors, you are always left with that nagging and uncertainty.

Thus, Destiny WANTS you to agonize over whether your rolls are as good as they can be, by bombarding you with meaningless choice to create uncertainty in your mind.

The more you examine the game, the more deliberately hostile you see the design ultimately is.

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Except what you are talking about is usually discussed in combination with decision paralisys. The evidence is usually that too much choice causes people to disengage, not dig in further.

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Except what you are talking about is usually discussed in combination with decision paralisys. The evidence is usually that too much choice causes people to disengage, not dig in further.

Which is exactly what I do. When I get a new weapon, I google what the best rolls are for it, try to get close to that. I don't actually experiment with perks too much. There's too many for me to really give a shit about all of them.

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It isn't that hard to experiment with perks. If you get a gun with one you don't know, try it out, then dump it cause it probably sucks. For stacking perks like some reload perks, search YouTube.

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I don't have the desire to spend that much time playing with perks. It takes entirely too long to level a gun fully to experiment with it's perks. If they're not fun or good, it's a lot of lost time. Granted you could still have fun while leveling a gun (and I usually do), but I'm probably just going to end up using something I already have that I know I like, rather than play for hours with something I might not.

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You can't take a gun out on a mission or two & get a good feel for it, you've gotta invest a non-trivial amount of time into it before you can tell if the gun-changing perks are ones you'd like. Yuk.

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A gun range in the tower solves this, but of course it's bad for business because then players figure it out too quickly and there goes the grind.

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Not really. I haven't had to level guns up in a long time. You're in a different situation, you're still starting. As a result, if there is a perk I want to try, I simply swap to that gun when turning in bounties. Over time, I blow the weapon parts and glimmer and upgrade it if it is on the second or third upgrade tree. I can't do it immediately, but I am investing no extra time into it.

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I get why Destiny bombard you with so much choice. It's all purposeful and manipulative.

There's a principle, where the more choice someone has, the less satisfied they ultimately are. Imagine you can choose from two Vacuum cleaners. You look at them, decide which is better, and buy the better one. You might down the line have second thoughts, but when you think back, you can clearly see you made the better choice.

But if you have a hundred Vacuum cleaners to choose from, you have second thoughts, but then go over the endless combinations of attachments and models from the other 99. You can no longer tell with certainty that 'this one I got is the best', because there is so much choice, and so many factors, you are always left with that nagging and uncertainty.

Thus, Destiny WANTS you to agonize over whether your rolls are as good as they can be, by bombarding you with meaningless choice to create uncertainty in your mind.

The more you examine the game, the more deliberately hostile you see the design ultimately is.

You can look at anything negatively if you want to.

The way I look at it is, Bungie is deliberately frustrating those who want to min/max the game-- to determine THE best weapon and armor combinations, to prevent the game from collapsing down into those options and nothing else. (Hence the upcoming nerfs, although at least the game doesn't collapse to Thorn/Gyllenhall for everyone, because not everyone has them.)

I agree Bungie is trying to create doubt, because doubt is the only thing that leaves you open to trying new weapons. The alternative is nothing but an escalator where you only know things are better because they have bigger numbers. Destiny does that too, but such changes have to be restricted to major updates, like the moves from max attack 300, then to 331, and now to 365. Within those ranges, though, there have to be doubts that lead you to evaluate new items, and that's where the perks come in.

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Really, what you are asking for is the standard RPG random generated names, where you get names like "Spider slaying sword of fire" or "leather headband of agility". I really don't see that happening for all weapons, and I'm glad bungie is working to solve this head on. I'm interested to see what they come up with to solve this information gap.

Not really. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I want less randomness; I don't want the names to change based on the perks rolled. I want perks that are just that, perks, not gun changers. I do not want more gun names, and I don't want there to be half a million different possible FINAL BOSS sniper rifles. When there are half a million different rolls for a gun with perks that are powerful enough to fundamentally change a gun then the name of the gun looses all meaning.

I'm fine with different scopes that tweak with the FoV and tweak with how the gun handles, but they shouldn't turn the gun into a different gun. Comments like, "Hey, if I roll the right perks this gun will out shoot my Felwinters Lie" shouldn't be happening IMHO. When I hear terms like "God Tier Roll" or "Best Possible Roll" being thrown about in regards to a gun then that tells me the perks are too important.

I guess really my complaint/argument comes down to this:
1- Perks are powerful enough to make or break a gun.
2- There are too many combinations.
Therefore: Gun names meaningless. The game (especially PVP) would be better if they were limited.

You know, I'd even be fine if archtype/gun chaning perks like shot-package, range finder, or final round still exist, but they should be fixed perks for that gun, not random rolls. I'd know that every Matador 64 had range finder, and that every Party Crasher +1 had Shot Package, or that every Longbow Synthesis had Final Round.

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I think a bigger problem is perks that just straight up make the gun more effective. Those are more desirable, and 'boring'. Perks like battle runner don't directly make the weapon better, but offer 'horizontal' progression.

If every perk did that, we'd be in much better shape.

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Really, what you are asking for is the standard RPG random generated names, where you get names like "Spider slaying sword of fire" or "leather headband of agility". I really don't see that happening for all weapons, and I'm glad bungie is working to solve this head on. I'm interested to see what they come up with to solve this information gap.

Not really. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I want less randomness; I don't want the names to change based on the perks rolled. I want perks that are just that, perks, not gun changers. I do not want more gun names, and I don't want there to be half a million different possible FINAL BOSS sniper rifles. When there are half a million different rolls for a gun with perks that are powerful enough to fundamentally change a gun then the name of the gun looses all meaning.

You're talking about an awful lot here. =)

The name of the gun quickly identifies "what killed you". We all assume it's mostly the gun and a little bit of skill. I think bungie is trying to change this. (At least overall, there will be outliers I'm sure that are best-in-class) From what I see they want "player x killed me" and the gun being an anecdote, rather than "thorn killed me again!".

They also want to offer meaningful choices, with trade-offs, appropriate to where you are in your journey in becoming legend.

Most of the time, the perks aren't really that significant. They are, quite literally, perks right now. Look at hidden hand. It sounds amazing until you realize that it bumps the "accuracy" number by 5. out of 100. That's 5% better for that one stat. It's helpful, sure, but not game breaking. In isolation, which is most of the time, that's totally fine and not a problem. Balanced even.

I think the problem we're really discussing is stacking perks, along with some perks are better than others. When you can take a gun that has 30% or so stability and raise that to 75% stability via the right perks, that's game changing, and dilutes the gun -- you have no idea for anyone with that base gun how much that changes. Some people have 20%, some have 80%. This is definitely a problem, and something they've said they are fixing outright. I suspect you will get your wish -- smaller variations of each gun, with a few outliers that will be similar to what we have now.

Additionally, there is confusion. You shouldn't have to be a destiny gun/lore expert to be great. I think that this will be one of the toughest problems they face -- making both meaningful progression choices in a way that isn't too random or confusing. There's definitely too much of that going on.

If I had to put names to bungie's weapon balancing goals, it would be these:
1) scale appropriately -- someone coming into the game new should have a path from the bottom to the top of the weapon chain.
2) variation -- there should be many different weapons that fit a myriad of playstyles. This, combined with #1, means there will always be clear winners and clear losers.
3) customization -- this is your guardian. Your gear should be as customizable as your class traits.
3a) perks should refine, not determine, playstyle and direction on use.
3b) choices should be meaningful, without being game breaking.
4) balance -- as a general rule, no class of weapon, playstyle, or perk group should clearly be better than another.
4a) groups need to be sectioned out so that progression is possible. i.e. new 20's will have a group of weapons available to them that are comparable, that are in a different tier than even faction weapons.
4b) certain best-in-class weapons should exist for a given playstyle or class of weapons. i.e. people want to get their own thorn becuase thorn is great in PvP. This provides a good goal for people to work toward.

I could go on, but you can see how even in the above list that it starts to get circular, as they play off each other.

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I've got a bunch of legendaries that are fully unlocked but not leveled. I can't re-roll them because I have no weapon parts, and when I get them, I need them for something else - and I don't want to waste materials to level something that will be re-rolled. It is actually a relief when I get a legendary that can't be re-rolled, no need to worry about grinding for a chance at a better perk combo.

I would prefer that instead of re-rolling we could trade a gun in for a different version - but there would only be a few versions.

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Right now just about any gun can be great, depending on its perks.

If you make weapons have specific perks, all you end up with is a whole bunch of weapons that get sharded instantly. The meta wouldn't change, and you'd end up with even less variety.

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Right now just about any gun can be great, depending on its perks.

If you make weapons have specific perks, all you end up with is a whole bunch of weapons that get sharded instantly. The meta wouldn't change, and you'd end up with even less variety.

In the end is that really any different than it is now? Just a few 'guns' (rolls) dominate the meta. In my scenario at least you'd know what your up against and not have to guess what perks they were running with on that Matador 64.

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Right now just about any gun can be great, depending on its perks.

If you make weapons have specific perks, all you end up with is a whole bunch of weapons that get sharded instantly. The meta wouldn't change, and you'd end up with even less variety.

In the end is that really any different than it is now?

Not really, no. But at least there's visual variety now.

I don't really see an issue with not knowing exactly what perks a gun has though. Whether it's shot package or Grenadier, a shotgun is a shotgun - Even if I know their Shotgun doesn't have an "optimal" roll, I still won't be getting in their face if I can help it.

Plus with the way things work now, you can still make a gun that isn't as strong a contender into something pretty solid. Right now a Judgement can be almost as good as a Felwinter. Right now if you don't get the exact right gun you can still roll a pretty good contender. Imagine if there was literally one good shotgun and all others sucked - re-rolling evens the playing field.

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Right now just about any gun can be great, depending on its perks.

If you make weapons have specific perks, all you end up with is a whole bunch of weapons that get sharded instantly. The meta wouldn't change, and you'd end up with even less variety.

In the end is that really any different than it is now?

Not really, no. But at least there's visual variety now.

I don't really see an issue with not knowing exactly what perks a gun has though.

The issue, as I stated in one of my other posts, is that if I take my Felwinter's Lie and go toe-to-toe with another guardian using their own Felwinter's Lie, and they kill me, I have no way to know if I got out played or if they just have better perks. I'm defending a capture point. I see an enemy on radar. I know they're coming. I switch to my shotgun. They charge face-first into me. We both pull the trigger at the same time. I hit them full-on, center mass. I die, they don't. I had superior positioning, anticipated their move, prepared accordingly, and lost because they happened to have more range on their shotgun than I do... even though we're using the same shotgun. In a competitive game, that situation is 100% BS... and it happens all the time.

If 2 guardians are having a Thorn duel, the deciding factor will be skill 99% of the time. If you loose, you know why. You can learn and adjust. But right now, too many of the gunfights in Destiny come down to a dice roll. I might out-snipe an enemy sniper and land a headshot for the kill, but they hit me with a final round body shot at the same time and kill me back. I out played them, displayed more skill, and my actions were nullified by random perks.

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Right now just about any gun can be great, depending on its perks.

If you make weapons have specific perks, all you end up with is a whole bunch of weapons that get sharded instantly. The meta wouldn't change, and you'd end up with even less variety.

In the end is that really any different than it is now?

Not really, no. But at least there's visual variety now.

I don't really see an issue with not knowing exactly what perks a gun has though.

The issue, as I stated in one of my other posts, is that if I take my Felwinter's Lie and go toe-to-toe with another guardian using their own Felwinter's Lie, and they kill me, I have no way to know if I got out played or if they just have better perks. I'm defending a capture point. I see an enemy on radar. I know they're coming. I switch to my shotgun. They charge face-first into me. We both pull the trigger at the same time. I hit them full-on, center mass. I die, they don't. I had superior positioning, anticipated their move, prepared accordingly, and lost because they happened to have more range on their shotgun than I do... even though we're using the same shotgun. In a competitive game, that situation is 100% BS... and it happens all the time.

If 2 guardians are having a Thorn duel, the deciding factor will be skill 99% of the time. If you loose, you know why. You can learn and adjust. But right now, too much of the gunfights in Destiny come down to a dice roll. I might out-snipe an enemy sniper and land a headshot for the kill, but they hit me with a final round body shot at the same time and kill me back. I out played them, displayed more skill, and my actions were nullified by random perks.

Heh - I'm not sure I belong here, because I read threads like this and wonder "how can I play this game so differently from everyone else?"

I reroll almost NOTHING. I play with whatever perks the RNG gods give me. When I get killed in Crucible, I assume the guy on the other end of that battle was better than me, or had position on me, or got lucky, or whatever. If I get killed by a shotgun at handgun range, I do my best to stay away from that guy. If I get sniped through 3 walls, I do my best to stay out of view of that guy. I RARELY even think about the rolls my opponent might have gotten on the weapon he just killed me with - and when I do, it's more a "oh, well" than a "it's total bullshit that he's got a scout rifle that does more damage than my rocket launcher".

I read these threads and I think "man, I must be playing this game wrong." And then I think about the fact that I actually ENJOY my playtime (almost 100% of it, in fact), while almost nobody else here seems to do that... and I think "I don't want to play the game they're playing."

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I read these threads and I think "man, I must be playing this game wrong." And then I think about the fact that I actually ENJOY my playtime (almost 100% of it, in fact), while almost nobody else here seems to do that... and I think "I don't want to play the game they're playing."

There's a word for the game you aren't playing: "The meta-game" :)

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Right now just about any gun can be great, depending on its perks.

If you make weapons have specific perks, all you end up with is a whole bunch of weapons that get sharded instantly. The meta wouldn't change, and you'd end up with even less variety.

In the end is that really any different than it is now?

Not really, no. But at least there's visual variety now.

I don't really see an issue with not knowing exactly what perks a gun has though.

The issue, as I stated in one of my other posts, is that if I take my Felwinter's Lie and go toe-to-toe with another guardian using their own Felwinter's Lie, and they kill me, I have no way to know if I got out played or if they just have better perks. I'm defending a capture point. I see an enemy on radar. I know they're coming. I switch to my shotgun. They charge face-first into me. We both pull the trigger at the same time. I hit them full-on, center mass. I die, they don't. I had superior positioning, anticipated their move, prepared accordingly, and lost because they happened to have more range on their shotgun than I do... even though we're using the same shotgun. In a competitive game, that situation is 100% BS... and it happens all the time.

If 2 guardians are having a Thorn duel, the deciding factor will be skill 99% of the time. If you loose, you know why. You can learn and adjust. But right now, too much of the gunfights in Destiny come down to a dice roll. I might out-snipe an enemy sniper and land a headshot for the kill, but they hit me with a final round body shot at the same time and kill me back. I out played them, displayed more skill, and my actions were nullified by random perks.

Heh - I'm not sure I belong here, because I read threads like this and wonder "how can I play this game so differently from everyone else?"

I reroll almost NOTHING. I play with whatever perks the RNG gods give me. When I get killed in Crucible, I assume the guy on the other end of that battle was better than me, or had position on me, or got lucky, or whatever. If I get killed by a shotgun at handgun range, I do my best to stay away from that guy. If I get sniped through 3 walls, I do my best to stay out of view of that guy. I RARELY even think about the rolls my opponent might have gotten on the weapon he just killed me with - and when I do, it's more a "oh, well" than a "it's total bullshit that he's got a scout rifle that does more damage than my rocket launcher".

I read these threads and I think "man, I must be playing this game wrong." And then I think about the fact that I actually ENJOY my playtime (almost 100% of it, in fact), while almost nobody else here seems to do that... and I think "I don't want to play the game they're playing."

:)

I'm certainly capable of playing the game in that frame of mind... I often do :) But when you're playing Trials of Osiris against the very best players in the world, all of these little differences suddenly matter. If you're facing a player who has mastered the Hunter's Blink-jump maneuver and is also armed with a shotgun that happens to be rolled for slightly more range than yours is (even though you both have the "same" gun), it can be extremely frustrating. I LOVE the competitive nature of Trials of Osiris, but I do feel like all the random perks and ability to re-roll weapons muddies the waters in a way that causes problems for that game mode.

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I'm certainly capable of playing the game in that frame of mind... I often do :) But when you're playing Trials of Osiris against the very best players in the world, all of these little differences suddenly matter. If you're facing a player who has mastered the Hunter's Blink-jump maneuver and is also armed with a shotgun that happens to be rolled for slightly more range than yours is (even though you both have the "same" gun), it can be extremely frustrating. I LOVE the competitive nature of Trials of Osiris, but I do feel like all the random perks and ability to re-roll weapons muddies the waters in a way that causes problems for that game mode.

I guess it's no real coincidence that I don't play Trials. ;)

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I'm certainly capable of playing the game in that frame of mind... I often do :) But when you're playing Trials of Osiris against the very best players in the world, all of these little differences suddenly matter. If you're facing a player who has mastered the Hunter's Blink-jump maneuver and is also armed with a shotgun that happens to be rolled for slightly more range than yours is (even though you both have the "same" gun), it can be extremely frustrating. I LOVE the competitive nature of Trials of Osiris, but I do feel like all the random perks and ability to re-roll weapons muddies the waters in a way that causes problems for that game mode.

I guess it's no real coincidence that I don't play Trials. ;)

One of the funny things about this "random perk" issue is that it doesn't seem to effect the primary weapon combat so much. I think the reason for that is that the best PvP primary weapons in the game are all exotics or raid/ToO weapons that come with set perks. So you can get a vendor weapon and re-roll it to be very effective, but it won't dominate the game. From there, you can work your way up to the best of the best (a thorn, last word, messenger, etc) and when you get there you will be on completely even footing with everyone else who is using those same weapons.

But in the Special and Heavy weapon categories, the opposite is true. Most of the best special weapons in the game are vendor or crucible guns that have been re-rolled to perfection. So getting Felwinter's Lie isn't enough... you need to spend thousands and thousands of glimmer on re-rolling to the perfect combo of perks just to get on an even footing with some other players. That feels problematic to me.

If we had and exotic or raid shotgun that went toe-to-toe with a perfectly rolled Felwinter's Lie, I think that would help a lot. I was hoping the Trials of Osiris weapons would fill this roll. The primary weapons are fantastic (I actually smile when I see an enemy team full of Thorns, because I know I can beat them with my Messenger ;p), but the sniper, fusion rifle, and shotgun all fail to compete with the best PvP guns already out there.

Hopefully this is something that Bungie can add in the future :)

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Hopefully this is something that Bungie can add in the future :)

Let's assume Bungie is going to depreciate current weapons somehow in the crucible.

The best thing from here on out I think, is to rethink about how perks make guns more effective. No perk should straight up make the gun directly more effective. No perks that increase damage. No perks that increase range or stability. No perks that increase aim assist. Etc.

Perks should indirectly make guns more effective. Perks such as Battle Runner, Shoot to Loot, Up close and Personal, and Replenish are the kinds of things I'm talking about. Even Icarus is too much of a direct effect. They don't directly make the weapon any better, but can be used situationally to improve your performance in other ways. In short, the perks actually effect your playstyle, not the guns killing power. To me this is far more interesting.

Now. Getting every current gun out of the hands of everyone in the Crucible is going to be tough since attack power doesn't matter, and no matter how much Bungie nerfs hammer forged, it's still a straight up effectiveness perk, and those weapons are out there.

It's just bad perk design from the get go. I'm not going to say that I warned them and saw it first, because I didn't. Maybe the best thing is to simply disallow year one weapons in Crucible when in year two playlists. That has problems of its own, but the longer Bungie waits, the worse it'll be. They should pull the trigger now.

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The worse it will be? Aside from a few major problem areas (mainly shotguns and exotic hand cannons) things don't seem so bad. For me at least, it's more of a philosophical issue of a single name being attached to wildly different guns. Setting a "no more year one" style cutoff seems like overkill to me. Like, The Devil You Know is a nice gun, but so is my Red Hand IX. Plus, with the new foundry themed guns and class specific guns coming the temptation to move to newer weapons will likely be a good deal greater than it is now.

I guess I just look forward to the novelty of being killed by a year one gun in a few years. :)

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I guess I just look forward to the novelty of being killed by a year one gun in a few years. :)

Speaking of which, I've really been enjoying my TDYK in the crucible lately.

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I'm certainly capable of playing the game in that frame of mind... I often do :) But when you're playing Trials of Osiris against the very best players in the world, all of these little differences suddenly matter. If you're facing a player who has mastered the Hunter's Blink-jump maneuver and is also armed with a shotgun that happens to be rolled for slightly more range than yours is (even though you both have the "same" gun), it can be extremely frustrating.

I don't want to keep banging pn the same drum, but why (especially in Trials) are you even using the shotgun with less range? The gunsmith is right there man. Go re-roll it.

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Heh - I'm not sure I belong here, because I read threads like this and wonder "how can I play this game so differently from everyone else?"

I reroll almost NOTHING. I play with whatever perks the RNG gods give me. When I get killed in Crucible, I assume the guy on the other end of that battle was better than me, or had position on me, or got lucky, or whatever. If I get killed by a shotgun at handgun range, I do my best to stay away from that guy. If I get sniped through 3 walls, I do my best to stay out of view of that guy. I RARELY even think about the rolls my opponent might have gotten on the weapon he just killed me with - and when I do, it's more a "oh, well" than a "it's total bullshit that he's got a scout rifle that does more damage than my rocket launcher".

I read these threads and I think "man, I must be playing this game wrong." And then I think about the fact that I actually ENJOY my playtime (almost 100% of it, in fact), while almost nobody else here seems to do that... and I think "I don't want to play the game they're playing."

:)

This is basically my issue. I play very much the same. I don't invest in perks too much. I also don't play crucible too much, and even with the "correct" perks I probably still wouldn't be that good at it. But it still bugs me that if you don't invest in the perk system, and get that perfect roll (through luck or spending motes), you're at a disadvantage.

I'm not a very competitive player, so it doesn't get to me much, but it does bother me sometimes.

I guess I can't really complain, though. I'm the one who refuses to invest in the perk system. It's a bit like people complaining about their representatives, but they didn't vote. I'm fully capable of learning what each and every perk is, how exactly they affect what's going on . . . I just don't care enough to do so.

Even so, it frustrates me sometimes. His Party Crasher should be the same as my Party Crasher.

I will say that some of the discussion in this thread has given me pause, though. Ultimately, I think someotherguy was right, where it would end up that everyone was running with the same exact gun, because it is the "best." Even if Bungie attempted to make every shotgun (or hand cannon or whatever gun it was) competitive, one would gain widespread popularity and be acknowledged as the best gun, and nothing else would get used.

With the way it is now, you're not screwed because you don't have that gun, you can use another gun and use perks to make it competitive, where it might not have been before.

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The issue, as I stated in one of my other posts, is that if I take my Felwinter's Lie and go toe-to-toe with another guardian using their own Felwinter's Lie, and they kill me, I have no way to know if I got out played or if they just have better perks. I'm defending a capture point. I see an enemy on radar. I know they're coming. I switch to my shotgun. They charge face-first into me. We both pull the trigger at the same time. I hit them full-on, center mass. I die, they don't. I had superior positioning, anticipated their move, prepared accordingly, and lost because they happened to have more range on their shotgun than I do... even though we're using the same shotgun. In a competitive game, that situation is 100% BS... and it happens all the time.

This never, ever happens to me, and there's an easy way to make sure it doesn't happen to you - use a better shotgun. I already have the best shotgun roll, so I know if the other guy beats me it's skill or luck. There's never a time where I'm left wondering if it's the roll or not. I get the complaint that shotguns are broken right now, or that it sucks that you have to play into the meta, but that's how competitive games work - play the meta or die. (Caveat: You can still have a lot of fun by not playong the meta. MIDA Voidwalker is my new favourire thing. But I get killed more often by others who are playing the meta)

If 2 guardians are having a Thorn duel, the deciding factor will be skill 99% of the time. If you loose, you know why. You can learn and adjust. But right now, too many of the gunfights in Destiny come down to a dice roll. I might out-snipe an enemy sniper and land a headshot for the kill, but they hit me with a final round body shot at the same time and kill me back. I out played them, displayed more skill, and my actions were nullified by random perks.

There's not many perks like that though. Final Round is the big one, and it's going away.

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The issue, as I stated in one of my other posts, is that if I take my Felwinter's Lie and go toe-to-toe with another guardian using their own Felwinter's Lie, and they kill me, I have no way to know if I got out played or if they just have better perks. I'm defending a capture point. I see an enemy on radar. I know they're coming. I switch to my shotgun. They charge face-first into me. We both pull the trigger at the same time. I hit them full-on, center mass. I die, they don't. I had superior positioning, anticipated their move, prepared accordingly, and lost because they happened to have more range on their shotgun than I do... even though we're using the same shotgun. In a competitive game, that situation is 100% BS... and it happens all the time.

This never, ever happens to me, and there's an easy way to make sure it doesn't happen to you - use a better shotgun. I already have the best shotgun roll, so I know if the other guy beats me it's skill or luck. There's never a time where I'm left wondering if it's the roll or not.

That's what I would do, if it were possible. With the rearrangement of perks in House of Wolves, it is no longer possible to roll a shotgun with the same combo of devastating perks that you could get a few months ago. So I'm stuck competing with players who have better weapons, with no way to match what they have.

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The issue, as I stated in one of my other posts, is that if I take my Felwinter's Lie and go toe-to-toe with another guardian using their own Felwinter's Lie, and they kill me, I have no way to know if I got out played or if they just have better perks. I'm defending a capture point. I see an enemy on radar. I know they're coming. I switch to my shotgun. They charge face-first into me. We both pull the trigger at the same time. I hit them full-on, center mass. I die, they don't. I had superior positioning, anticipated their move, prepared accordingly, and lost because they happened to have more range on their shotgun than I do... even though we're using the same shotgun. In a competitive game, that situation is 100% BS... and it happens all the time.

This never, ever happens to me, and there's an easy way to make sure it doesn't happen to you - use a better shotgun. I already have the best shotgun roll, so I know if the other guy beats me it's skill or luck. There's never a time where I'm left wondering if it's the roll or not.

That's what I would do, if it were possible. With the rearrangement of perks in House of Wolves, it is no longer possible to roll a shotgun with the same combo of devastating perks that you could get a few months ago. So I'm stuck competing with players who have better weapons, with no way to match what they have.

Just last week I got a Matador with Smart Drift, Shot Package, Rifled Barrel, and Battle Runner, straight-outta-the-box. It also has Aggressive Ballistics, but the SD and RB max out the range, so I don't need to sacrifice Stability,
I prefer Range Finder to Shot Package, and not everyone loves Battle Runner as much as I do (an extra perk slot to get something good!), so while it's not my PS4 Felwinter, it is still ridiculously overpowered. It's a top-tier gun post-nerfs, and has been besting Felwinters left and right, so yeah you can still make some great Shotguns without needing a million rolls.

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The issue, as I stated in one of my other posts, is that if I take my Felwinter's Lie and go toe-to-toe with another guardian using their own Felwinter's Lie, and they kill me, I have no way to know if I got out played or if they just have better perks. I'm defending a capture point. I see an enemy on radar. I know they're coming. I switch to my shotgun. They charge face-first into me. We both pull the trigger at the same time. I hit them full-on, center mass. I die, they don't. I had superior positioning, anticipated their move, prepared accordingly, and lost because they happened to have more range on their shotgun than I do... even though we're using the same shotgun. In a competitive game, that situation is 100% BS... and it happens all the time.

This never, ever happens to me, and there's an easy way to make sure it doesn't happen to you - use a better shotgun. I already have the best shotgun roll, so I know if the other guy beats me it's skill or luck. There's never a time where I'm left wondering if it's the roll or not.

That's what I would do, if it were possible. With the rearrangement of perks in House of Wolves, it is no longer possible to roll a shotgun with the same combo of devastating perks that you could get a few months ago. So I'm stuck competing with players who have better weapons, with no way to match what they have.

Just last week I got a Matador with Smart Drift, Shot Package, Rifled Barrel, and Battle Runner, straight-outta-the-box. It also has Aggressive Ballistics, but the SD and RB max out the range, so I don't need to sacrifice Stability,
I prefer Range Finder to Shot Package, and not everyone loves Battle Runner as much as I do (an extra perk slot to get something good!), so while it's not my PS4 Felwinter, it is still ridiculously overpowered. It's a top-tier gun post-nerfs, and has been besting Felwinters left and right, so yeah you can still make some great Shotguns without needing a million rolls.

You can absolutely get great shotguns right now, but not as good as what was available pre HoW. My Two to the Morgue has Hammer Forged AND Shot Package, plus Field Choke. That is a combo of perks that is no longer available. Unfortunately, Two to the Morgue has less base range than Felwinter's Lie, so it can't quite compete with the very best Felwinter's out there.

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You can absolutely get great shotguns right now, but not as good as what was available pre HoW. My Two to the Morgue has Hammer Forged AND Shot Package, plus Field Choke. That is a combo of perks that is no longer available. Unfortunately, Two to the Morgue has less base range than Felwinter's Lie, so it can't quite compete with the very best Felwinter's out there.

My Party Crasher has Reinforced Barrel, Aggressive Ballistics and Shot Package. It has the same Range as a perfect Felwinter. The only difference is it deals 12 damage less than an identical Felwinter, but fires faster, and that's just my personal choice in shotguns. I could roll the same on a Felwinter.

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The only range you can't get right now is Hammer Forged, and Reinforced Barrel on a Party Crasher or Matador (and I'm pretty sure on a Felwinter too) will still bring you to Max Range. You'll lose some stability but Stability is totally unnecessary on a Shotgun with such a low fire rate.

With Reinforced Barrel you don't even need Field Choke - you can run Aggressive Ballistics for extra Impact.

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Right now just about any gun can be great, depending on its perks.

If you make weapons have specific perks, all you end up with is a whole bunch of weapons that get sharded instantly. The meta wouldn't change, and you'd end up with even less variety.

In the end is that really any different than it is now? Just a few 'guns' (rolls) dominate the meta. In my scenario at least you'd know what your up against and not have to guess what perks they were running with on that Matador 64.

It would be different because those "Perfect Rolls" are only "PERFECT" for certain activities and certain play styles. I have a Solar Party Crasher with Shot Package and Rifled Barrel, but I almost exclusively use it in Solar Burn Cabal activities (to devastatingly great effect) - I have YET to even take it into the Crucible, even though that's where it ought to "shine" the most.

Just because there is a "perfect PvP roll" doesn't mean that's the "most fun" for everyone. I like options and being given a choice I actually have control over.

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Right now just about any gun can be great, depending on its perks.

If you make weapons have specific perks, all you end up with is a whole bunch of weapons that get sharded instantly. The meta wouldn't change, and you'd end up with even less variety.

In the end is that really any different than it is now? Just a few 'guns' (rolls) dominate the meta. In my scenario at least you'd know what your up against and not have to guess what perks they were running with on that Matador 64.

It would be different because those "Perfect Rolls" are only "PERFECT" for certain activities and certain play styles. I have a Solar Party Crasher with Shot Package and Rifled Barrel, but I almost exclusively use it in Solar Burn Cabal activities (to devastatingly great effect) - I have YET to even take it into the Crucible, even though that's where it ought to "shine" the most.

Just because there is a "perfect PvP roll" doesn't mean that's the "most fun" for everyone. I like options and being given a choice I actually have control over.

Exactly. I'm desparate for a Dry Rot so I can roll Solar, Full Auto, Casket Mag and Cascade. Will it be good in Crucible? God I should think not. Will it be as effective as Found Verdict? Not unless I can get the magazine above 6. Will it be stupid fun? Yes yes yes yes yes.

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Mini Rant: Big Problem! No two guns are ever the same. (Destiny)

Agree

Happened to Queen auto rifle too.