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Is becoming legend even a good goal? (Destiny)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, July 24, 2015, 16:13 (3647 days ago)

In putting together my absolutely massively academic post about story, narrative forms, and Destiny, something occurred to me.

What is a Legend? A tale told by someone who didn't live it. And so, it takes on a larger than life quality, as imagination and oration fill in gaps and expand the scope. But to the person who lived it? It's no Legend… it's just… what happened.

Think about it for a second.

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I guess only Danny Hart can know.

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Friday, July 24, 2015, 16:15 (3647 days ago) @ Cody Miller

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What Would Brian Boitano Do?

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Friday, July 24, 2015, 17:01 (3647 days ago) @ iconicbanana

- No text -

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If he were here right now? I think he'd kick an ass or two.

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Friday, July 24, 2015, 17:02 (3647 days ago) @ Korny

- No text -

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Is becoming legend even a good goal?

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Friday, July 24, 2015, 16:21 (3647 days ago) @ Cody Miller

In putting together my absolutely massively academic post about story, narrative forms, and Destiny, something occurred to me.

What is a Legend? A tale told by someone who didn't live it. And so, it takes on a larger than life quality, as imagination and oration fill in gaps and expand the scope. But to the person who lived it? It's no Legend… it's just… what happened.

Think about it for a second.

It's not about that level of specifics, it's about becoming renowned, in-universe or in real life.

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Is becoming legend even a good goal?

by cheapLEY @, Friday, July 24, 2015, 16:22 (3647 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It's just catchy. I don't think it was that deeply thought through (although I could be wrong).

We do read about old Legendary Guardians, so maybe the things we do in game are supposed to be equivalent to their accomplishments; i.e. our Guardians will have legends surrounding them in the future of Destiny.

We basically took back the moon, opened up Mars, defeated whatever it was in the Black Garden, etc.

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Is becoming legend even a good goal?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, July 24, 2015, 16:27 (3647 days ago) @ cheapLEY

We do read about old Legendary Guardians, so maybe the things we do in game are supposed to be equivalent to their accomplishments; i.e. our Guardians will have legends surrounding them in the future of Destiny.

We basically took back the moon, opened up Mars, defeated whatever it was in the Black Garden, etc.

Who is telling the Legend of your guardian though? Lame NPCs? And did your actual experience match up with what they are saying? That is the point.

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Is becoming legend even a good goal?

by cheapLEY @, Friday, July 24, 2015, 16:40 (3647 days ago) @ Cody Miller

We do read about old Legendary Guardians, so maybe the things we do in game are supposed to be equivalent to their accomplishments; i.e. our Guardians will have legends surrounding them in the future of Destiny.

We basically took back the moon, opened up Mars, defeated whatever it was in the Black Garden, etc.


Who is telling the Legend of your guardian though? Lame NPCs? And did your actual experience match up with what they are saying? That is the point.

Well, I mean, that's different than what you asked. What you're really asking is does the game live up to the Become Legend motto. I would say for the most part, no. It's like they talked about with cool stories regarding weapons you have. You NEVER have to do anything cool to get them. It's always "I bought it from Xur" or "It finally dropped after my 40th VoG." Even the exotic bounties, while they can be fun, don't live up to anything special, as they're all just do this same thing 500 hundred times, then do this other thing 50 times, etc. There's no epic story surrounding any weapon, or not one that you get to participate in (many of them have great stories in the grimoire).

And as we've all discussed too many times, the story definitely doesn't live up to Become Legend. While yes, taking back the Moon or Mars, or destroying the darkness in the Black Garden, is undoubtedly a huge accomplishment, you'd be hard pressed to actually know this from playing the game. We don't ever see how it matters or affects anything.

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Is becoming legend even a good goal?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, July 24, 2015, 16:43 (3647 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by Cody Miller, Friday, July 24, 2015, 16:52

Well, I mean, that's different than what you asked. What you're really asking is does the game live up to the Become Legend motto.

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that the 'Legend' is inherently different for the person who lived it, and the people who didn't. The concept of a legend better serves those who didn't live it. Wanting to become one yourself is a self defeating goal, since for you, it's just your specific experience; the opposite of a Legend.

This might sound pedantic, but it is actually why the visual storytelling in Destiny will never ever work unless Bungie abandons this concept. It will be explained in an essay posting this weekend.

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You will be legendary for other stuff...

by Durandal, Friday, July 24, 2015, 17:07 (3647 days ago) @ Cody Miller

In game, you don't accomplish anything other people haven't already done. In fact, if there were things in game that only .001% of people would accomplish they would be amazing, but no one would play.

The people that have become legendary in Destiny are the ones that solo raids, pull off insane PVP combos or discover cool tricks and techniques. Like any MMO, everyone wants to experience the end game content and that makes it less unique.

Just imagine for a moment if you and a buddy's Skyrim characters were walking through town. Everyone would be calling them dragonborn and thane and such. it would lose some of it's punch. And what if both of you are the heads of the various guilds and schools?

It would be nice, if in game they acknowledged that you had defeated the Vault prior to Skolas's re-purposing of the oracles, or the Speaker and Vangard mentioned a thanks for stopping all those blades of crota from popping up. Ultimately though I think this marketing gimmick hearkens back to when each mission was tracked in your character's "story" as a chapter. So that if you looked at your completed quest log it read like a adventure story about your character.

Sadly, I can see how difficult it would be to input your character's personality and personal headcannon into that story and Bungie decided to drop it. It's still a cool concept though, PVE progress dynamically generating a story.

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Is becoming legend even a good goal?

by red robber @, Crawfish Country, Friday, July 24, 2015, 17:12 (3647 days ago) @ Cody Miller

We do read about old Legendary Guardians, so maybe the things we do in game are supposed to be equivalent to their accomplishments; i.e. our Guardians will have legends surrounding them in the future of Destiny.

We basically took back the moon, opened up Mars, defeated whatever it was in the Black Garden, etc.


Who is telling the Legend of your guardian though? Lame NPCs? And did your actual experience match up with what they are saying? That is the point.

No one is telling our legend. It doesn't exist yet. We are actively creating our own legends that others will one day marvel at. At least that's the way I interpret it.

I'll be the one to whisper the legend of Zero. A mighty guardian who reigned in the crucible. Rumors say he'd stomp the lights out of Lord Shaxx.

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Yeah, I always thought legends were among friends.

by iconicbanana, C2-H5-OH + NAD, Portland, OR, Friday, July 24, 2015, 17:14 (3647 days ago) @ red robber

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I've heard of yours Banana, looking forward to playing w ya.

by red robber @, Crawfish Country, Friday, July 24, 2015, 17:19 (3647 days ago) @ iconicbanana

- No text -

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Is becoming legend even a good goal?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, July 24, 2015, 17:40 (3647 days ago) @ red robber

We do read about old Legendary Guardians, so maybe the things we do in game are supposed to be equivalent to their accomplishments; i.e. our Guardians will have legends surrounding them in the future of Destiny.

We basically took back the moon, opened up Mars, defeated whatever it was in the Black Garden, etc.


Who is telling the Legend of your guardian though? Lame NPCs? And did your actual experience match up with what they are saying? That is the point.


No one is telling our legend. It doesn't exist yet. We are actively creating our own legends that others will one day marvel at. At least that's the way I interpret it.

I'll be the one to whisper the legend of Zero. A mighty guardian who reigned in the crucible. Rumors say he'd stomp the lights out of Lord Shaxx.

That is 'real life' and outside the scope of the game. I am talking about within the game and narrative, as is the marketing.

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Is becoming legend even a good goal?

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Friday, July 24, 2015, 19:31 (3647 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Who is telling the Legend of your guardian though? Lame NPCs? And did your actual experience match up with what they are saying? That is the point.


No one is telling our legend. It doesn't exist yet. We are actively creating our own legends that others will one day marvel at. At least that's the way I interpret it.

I'll be the one to whisper the legend of Zero. A mighty guardian who reigned in the crucible. Rumors say he'd stomp the lights out of Lord Shaxx.


That is 'real life' and outside the scope of the game. I am talking about within the game and narrative, as is the marketing.

What do you base that on, the assertion that the marketing is talking about in-game stuff only?

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Is becoming legend even a good goal?

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, July 24, 2015, 19:39 (3647 days ago) @ Cody Miller

We do read about old Legendary Guardians, so maybe the things we do in game are supposed to be equivalent to their accomplishments; i.e. our Guardians will have legends surrounding them in the future of Destiny.

We basically took back the moon, opened up Mars, defeated whatever it was in the Black Garden, etc.


Who is telling the Legend of your guardian though? Lame NPCs? And did your actual experience match up with what they are saying? That is the point.


No one is telling our legend. It doesn't exist yet. We are actively creating our own legends that others will one day marvel at. At least that's the way I interpret it.

I'll be the one to whisper the legend of Zero. A mighty guardian who reigned in the crucible. Rumors say he'd stomp the lights out of Lord Shaxx.


That is 'real life' and outside the scope of the game. I am talking about within the game and narrative, as is the marketing.

I think you're incorrect about the marketing because becoming a legend has never been mentioned within Destiny. Or within the Grimoire. To the best of my knowledge, the only link to anything similar to Guardians wishing to "become legend" would be the Prison of Elders card that talks about Guardians going where treasure and glory are. I can't recall any other instance where the story focus on our Guardian or even on the named Guardians who came before us (like Dredgen Yor or Kabr) is about us or them wishing to become a legend. It's all focused on protecting The City or eliminating threats or falling into darkness.

At the very very least you should acknowledge that Become Legend has a substantial out of game context. It's already looking like you're trying to ignore that though... That's not good. :(

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Is becoming legend even a good goal?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, July 25, 2015, 07:23 (3646 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Im not denying it may apply outside the scope of the game. I'm ignoring it because it is 100% irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Just read the post I make Sunday and it will be clear.

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Is becoming legend even a good goal?

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, July 24, 2015, 17:25 (3647 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Who is telling the Legend of your guardian though?

Cards, obviously. Come on, Cody, pay attention!

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Is becoming legend even a good goal?

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, July 24, 2015, 17:44 (3647 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Ragashingo, Friday, July 24, 2015, 18:08

I think "Become Legend" is meant more in the sense of have a good time while playing Destiny and share your stories with friends. I dare say the game has fulfilled that for all of us.

I think it also refers a little to what we do in the game. Kill Crota. Find Rasputin. Stop the Vex take over of Venus. In that regard I would say "Become Legend" has not been fulfilled yet. Because of poor in game storytelling but also because Destiny really is a ten year story and it's only beginning...

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A Legend can also be a person striving for greatness...

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, July 25, 2015, 13:54 (3646 days ago) @ Cody Miller

In putting together my absolutely massively academic post about story, narrative forms, and Destiny, something occurred to me.

What is a Legend? A tale told by someone who didn't live it. And so, it takes on a larger than life quality, as imagination and oration fill in gaps and expand the scope. But to the person who lived it? It's no Legend… it's just… what happened.

Think about it for a second.

You are correct, for many people, even those who accomplish great things, they aren't legends or heroes in their own minds. Think of the stereotypical WWII veteran who doesn't want to talk about the war or the dozens of lives he very clearly saved because to him he was just a kid just trying to survive and come home. It's others around him and society at large that makes him into a legend.

But just because that kind of person may be most typical does not mean there aren't those who actively seek to Become Legend. Thinking about it for a second, like you suggested, I came up with two types of people who don't fit into your version of becoming a legend:

1. Ash Ketchum (From Pokemon) - Ash was not at all like WWII veteran above. Life didn't just happen to him. He went out and actively sought to "be the very best. Like no one ever was." He was, in Destiny terms, attempting to Become Legend. And ultimately he did pretty well and earned the respect of those around him. I don't believe he was overly boastful about his accomplishments, but he actively enjoyed them and recognized that he was achieving things no one else had.

2. Gilgamesh (From Fate/Zero) - It the various versions of the Fate series, heroes from the past are summoned into the present to help their summoners try and be the last Master / Servant pair standing and thus win the use of a reoccurring magical wish granting device. Of all the heroes called back, Gilgamesh was one of the most powerful if not easily the most powerful... and he knew it... and he let you know it. He was extremely confident, extremely boastful both of his power and of his accomplishments, and he was right. No one in the series ever did more than fight him to a draw which he would have eventually won. And unlike the WWII veteran, or Ash Ketchum, or the people that life just happens to, Gilgamesh told his own stories of his greatness. He told of how he ruled with absolute authority, how he had amassed the largest treasure ever know, how he was undefeatable in combat, etc. Also completely at odds with your idea of a legend being something told by others, there were no others to tell legendary stories of Gilgamesh since his spirit had been transported from some 5000 years in the past to the modern day and by the end of the series literally everyone who had seen him in action, save one person, was dead. But again, he spoke enough about his own Legend to more than make up for all of that.


Ultimately, Cody, you've focused on one definition of legend while ignoring an important second definition. One definition of Legend is:

a traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but unauthenticated: "the legend of King Arthur"

Even with this definition, your idea that a legend is always a story told by others is proven wrong by Gilgamesh's boastfulness and haughty "You are unworthy of me, peasants" type attitude. More importantly though is the second definition of a Legend:

an extremely famous or notorious person, especially in a particular field: "the man was a living legend"

A legend isn't just a story. Having others tell stories about things we think were just life happening isn't what Bungie's "Become Legend" slogan was offering! It's not urging us to have others whisper tales about us, it is urging us to strive for greatness and adventure and fun, like Ash Ketchum, and then to go out, like Gilgamesh, and boast of our stories of how great it was to raid the Vault of Glass without knowing what to do, or of the time we pulled off a spectacular come back in Trial of Osiris, or of the goofy stunt we managed to pull off on our sparrow.

And finally, while there are a couple of tucked away examples of Guardians striving to "Become Legend" within Destiny's story universe (it is said that some Guardians seek greatness in the Crucible, and Petra comments that some Guardians go where the glory and treasure is) the main thrust of the story in vanilla Destiny, The Dark Below, and House of Wolves is protecting humanity's last city and going out into the solar system looking for the means to take our planets back from alien enemies. Becoming Legend is never a focus of our Guardian's story or even that of those around him like the Vanguard or the legendary Guardians of the past. To claim that the phrase "Become Legend" was speaking strictly about in game events or motivations, like you already have, is absurd and is a stance that is difficult if not impossible to honestly support.

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