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bans forthcoming on network manipulators (Destiny)
by Schedonnardus, Texas, Thursday, July 30, 2015, 15:30 (3503 days ago)
https://twitter.com/Bungie/status/626563494545072128
Just in time for Trials!
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The Banhammer delivers sweet justice
by Beorn , <End of Failed Timeline>, Thursday, July 30, 2015, 18:01 (3503 days ago) @ Schedonnardus
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Dang!
by red robber , Crawfish Country, Thursday, July 30, 2015, 20:17 (3503 days ago) @ Schedonnardus
Now I can't cheat my way to an 0-3 card anymore.
What exactly is a lag switch?
by DreadPirateWes, Thursday, July 30, 2015, 21:02 (3503 days ago) @ red robber
I've heard about these things for years. What is a lag switch? They don't actually exist, do they? If they do, how do they work? Do you operate them on a foot pedal so you can keep your hands on the controller? Do you turn them on only after the match has begun or are they going all the time? Can you dial the lag up and down depending on how unstoppable you want to be? Can you just buy one online? Have any of you actually seen/used them in person?
PS No, I'm not looking to buy one.
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What exactly is a lag switch?
by uberfoop , Seattle-ish, Thursday, July 30, 2015, 21:51 (3503 days ago) @ DreadPirateWes
edited by uberfoop, Thursday, July 30, 2015, 22:10
It's a switch on your upstream network traffic. This allows you to continue receiving updates from the host, so that you can still shoot people smoothly on your end, but not send updates about yourself to everyone else. When the lag switch turns off and re-sync occurs, game networking models will often respect the actions that were taken by the lag-switcher during the lag, while causing them to be an extreme rubberband in everyone else's view.
So you can do things like turn on the switch, step into the battlefield and get some shots off, and turn off the switch so that your enemy is dead by the time that their console is even told that they're getting shot at.
What exactly is a lag switch?
by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Thursday, July 30, 2015, 22:20 (3503 days ago) @ uberfoop
Or run out, switch it on, and back off. On everyone else's screen you'll continue running in the same direction, completely invulnerable. Instant distraction!
Lag switchers suck.
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What exactly is a lag switch?
by Kuga, Thursday, July 30, 2015, 22:25 (3503 days ago) @ someotherguy
I remember this issue in Halo 3, and I had figured they had some auto-corrective measure put in place by now.
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What exactly is a lag switch?
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Thursday, July 30, 2015, 23:16 (3503 days ago) @ Kuga
I remember this issue in Halo 3, and I had figured they had some auto-corrective measure put in place by now.
Sadly, it's not always easy to spot since it hides among cases of legitimate lag. Even narrowing down instances to a good number of cases to examine is a monumental task, and this game has a much larger active population than any of the Halo games. That's why they practically beg people to use the reporting tool.
I agree it would be hard to pinpoint. I feel they could log when it happens as their code predicts your movement based on the previous entry prior to conn loss (or used to) and run an algorithm to see frequency and results when you re-establish connectivity. If their algo sees a logical pattern then a flag could be raised on the player for further investigation. Reporting would also be a variable in the logic. They might already be doing this for all I know.
I agree it would be hard to pinpoint. I feel they could log when it happens as their code predicts your movement based on the previous entry prior to conn loss (or used to) and run an algorithm to see frequency and results when you re-establish connectivity. If their algo sees a logical pattern then a flag could be raised on the player for further investigation. Reporting would also be a variable in the logic. They might already be doing this for all I know.
Apparently that is what they've been doing.
As far as netcode mechanics go, Destiny seems to compare the player locations sent by each player to the real-time locations of bullets sent by each player, and then declares a "hit" if those two locations match (so if you lag, not only does the damage you take not update right away, but the position that the other players' consoles predict for you based on pre-lag input has no real correlation to where your console thinks you are, so the odds that you take no damage whatsoever are much higher).
This looks like: Player X console: "I'm at point A moving towards point B." (lag begins. The other consoles predict that the motion of player X will continue towards point B and animate him thusly.) Player Y console: "I'm shooting player X at point B" (on player Y's screen, his shots are perfect, and all hit, but remember, player X is lagging, so no damage is dealt... yet. On player X's console, he either continues moving to point B, and will take damage as soon as his lag catches up, or he moves somewhere else, in which case he will take no damage at all when lag catches up and his avatar will teleport to the new location. In addition, any shots that player X fires during the lag will be registered as soon as his console catches up, so if he kills player Y during the lag, even if it's from point B and after the time that player Y fired what would have been the killshot, player X still deals his damage when the lag catches up).
In contrast, most AAA FPS games only care if the shooter scored a "hit" on the host console. That means that the host has a distinct advantage (no lag at all), but all others' consoles only hurt themselves by having lag (even on the upstream end). The trick is making it non-obvious who the host is, or only choosing hosts who have very reliable connections (which means they don't cheat with lag switches). Regardless, the end result is that manipulating your packets or lag only puts you at a disadvantage. I'm not saying those games can't be cheated at, but they can't be cheated at in the same ways as Destiny, and usually those cheats involved exploits of the code, which means they can be patched out in future updates (technically, Destiny could patch their entire netcode to work differently, but that's extremely unlikely as it's a massive, massive undertaking; basically they'd have to gut the whole game and start from scratch in order to create a PvP experience that was less susceptible to cheating, but also was not quite as smooth when there were no cheaters present).
This looks like: Player X console: "I'm at point A moving towards point B." (lag begins. The host stops receiving updates from player X so player X either just stands there like an asshole or keeps running in the same direction he was running when the lag starts). Player Y console: "I'm shooting player X and point B" (player X dies on everyone's console except player X's, where he'll die as soon as the lag stops).
The worst-case scenario in this kind of netcode setup is that someone has mild and constant lag which results in them sort of blinking forwards in little spurts rather than actually moving. The good news is that it's really hard to aim when your screen only updates your position twice a second, so these annoying lagging blinkers can't really shoot you, either, unless you stand still.
And the best part..
by petetheduck, Thursday, July 30, 2015, 22:27 (3503 days ago) @ someotherguy
..it is literally a switch.
I think there are digital versions too, but I was installing someone's internet back when I did field work and I asked him why there was a light switch spliced into his ethernet cable.
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And the best part..
by stabbim , Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, July 31, 2015, 16:23 (3502 days ago) @ petetheduck
Wow, that's a really shit way to do it. Bare minimum, it's going to take a couple of seconds to re-negotiate the link. Depending on the connected devices and how they're configured, it also might sit there and try to re-acquire an IP address rather than just assuming it should continue using the one it had (some devices do this when they lose the ethernet link for long enough). You could end up breaking connectivity long enough to dump yourself from the game.
It seems to me that a much better solution would be software on an in-the middle device (a PC, or a router with modified firmware) that just delays sending packets through. Probably pretty difficult for most people to implement, though, unless someone makes an actual product out of it.
There was a time when a lot of modems had a "hold" button on them or something like that, which would actually interrupt the connection somehow. I'm not clear on what the purpose of that was supposed to be, but in practice it was mostly used to win games of Halo 2.
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And the best part..
by Xenos , Shores of Time, Friday, July 31, 2015, 16:41 (3502 days ago) @ stabbim
Wow, that's a really shit way to do it. Bare minimum, it's going to take a couple of seconds to re-negotiate the link. Depending on the connected devices and how they're configured, it also might sit there and try to re-acquire an IP address rather than just assuming it should continue using the one it had (some devices do this when they lose the ethernet link for long enough). You could end up breaking connectivity long enough to dump yourself from the game.
Well remember they only hook it up to the upstream. So they still maintain a valid link (at least for long enough to stay connected). There is a little bit of time to reconnect the upstream, but not like if they switched off the entire ethernet cable.
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It's what I turn on every time I play games.
by Funkmon , Thursday, July 30, 2015, 22:44 (3503 days ago) @ DreadPirateWes
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I experienced lag switchers at least once tonight in IB
by dogcow , Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Friday, July 31, 2015, 04:57 (3502 days ago) @ Schedonnardus
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Complete your "Collect B.net Tears" bounty here.
by bluerunner , Music City, Friday, July 31, 2015, 17:02 (3502 days ago) @ Schedonnardus
edited by bluerunner, Friday, July 31, 2015, 17:06
It kinda goes to show that Bungie kinda knows what they're doing with these bans. I played on a cell phone with a massive amount of packet loss, sometimes borking the game with my lag. Zero ban here. These guys with ADSL or something blaming their issues on shoddy connections? I don't think so.
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Poll on who got banned
by Blackt1g3r , Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Friday, July 31, 2015, 18:22 (3502 days ago) @ bluerunner