I still don't understand the new light and level system.

What exactly does level do now? Do you still have a damage penalty to enemies above your level?
Does raising your light level increase your damage? So can you make your gun more powerful by equipping better armor?
Does light actually adjust your stats, or is it just a quick "at a glance" to see how powerful you are?

I still don't understand the new light and level system.

What exactly does level do now? Do you still have a damage penalty to enemies above your level?
Does raising your light level increase your damage? So can you make your gun more powerful by equipping better armor?
Does light actually adjust your stats, or is it just a quick "at a glance" to see how powerful you are?

Ever since we found out about the separation of Light and Level, I've been pondering it. It doesn't seem to make much sense, as far as streamlining and simplifying. It seems even MORE complicated now, because by all appearances, your Light is still what really matters, and your actual level seems less relevant.

Maybe I'm wrong. I still haven't seen the stream from earlier today, but I've read the thread and some of the explanations elsewhere, but I'm still not completely sure how it works.

by all appearances, your Light is still what really matters, and your actual level seems less relevant.

I might be mistaken, but I was under the impression that it was the opposite. It sounds to me like your character level governs damage output you do to enemies, and damage taken, as well as barring your entrance to activities and gear and the like. Light, then, is just a progressive indicator of your current stats, and is indicative of your perceived/actual level of power. In the same way that gear rarity usually responds to the effectiveness of weapons/armor, but doesn't necessarily dictate it.

If I'm right, it should work similar to FFXIV's 'Item Levels', at least as far as stats.

Thats what I was thinking. WoW also has a system where they measure the overall quality of your gear setup. In theory, the new Light system is basically that.

Being able to calculate how armor would help you or having a good way to calculate what enemies do damage wise would be great.

I still don't understand the new light and level system.

What exactly does level do now? Do you still have a damage penalty to enemies above your level?
Does raising your light level increase your damage? So can you make your gun more powerful by equipping better armor?
Does light actually adjust your stats, or is it just a quick "at a glance" to see how powerful you are?

From the definition of "Light" I think it will replace the current system of level differences affecting damage. Of course, they haven't clearly stated this, I feel like I heard them say during the stream today that Level determines the quality of gear you can equip, but level is easy to adjust.

The Light Level is the thing you will work for, but it is a HUGE improvement over the current system because (as they said in the stream) a single raid-tier or high level weapon immediately will make you more powerful.

My understanding is that Level is the gate to the gear (with top tier gear requiring Level 40). This is OK because level is fun to attain, since you can literally do anything you want to raise it. If you don't have fun leveling this way, you should probably not be playing the game. The Light stat would then be the new "Power" measure for your actual damage output and damage received. This is how I interpret the way they were talking in the stream. If this is the system, it is a VAST improvement. A single high tier weapon, armor, ghost shell, or artifact will bump you in a measurable way, making each piece more rewarding, and each new piece "easier" to attain (since you will be more powerful).

I haven't been following all the updates, but I'd thought levels were replacing light levels. Keeping them both seems redundumb.

Yeah I agree it's an improvement. The disparaging defense numbers on armor we have now was a strange system. What does a helmet with 491 defense mean? And how does that compare to a gun with 300 attack rating? Now you can tell how your gear compares to each other just by looking at it.

I haven't been following all the updates, but I'd thought levels were replacing light levels. Keeping them both seems redundumb.

Levels are your character's power. Light is your gear quality.

Cloud Strife is level 42, his Enhance Sword has an attack of 45 and his Mythril Bracer has a defense of 34. In this case, Light would be the average of 45 and 34, quickly telling you how your gear is doing.

You could use this example with Skyrim or many more RPGs.

Your level restricts the equipment you can use.

Your light level was an average of all the equipment the character was wearing.

Therefore, level governs light in some sense.

Beyond that, we haven't been told much that I know of.

I haven't been following all the updates, but I'd thought levels were replacing light levels. Keeping them both seems redundumb.

Levels are your character's power. Light is your gear quality.

Cloud Strife is level 42, his Enhance Sword has an attack of 45 and his Mythril Bracer has a defense of 34. In this case, Light would be the average of 45 and 34, quickly telling you how your gear is doing.

How much more quickly does the average of 45 and 34 tell you how your gear is doing than the two numbers 45 and 34 do?

It seems to me, what I really need to know are my attack and defense numbers. A player with high attack and low defense needs to play differently than a player with high defense and low attack, even if they average out to the same number.

If Light is no longer used either as a gate, or in calculations... then yeah, it's redundant.

You could use this example with Skyrim or many more RPGs.

Which number in Skyrim is analogous to light? It's been awhile, but I can't think of one. My gear has armor ratings, my weapons have offensive ratings, and my character has a level. Destiny now has all of those, plus light. Where's the light in Skyrim?

I do want to point out that it does seem to serve a purpose. PvE activities will have a recommended light level, IIRC. This helps you know if you've got enough strength/toughness etc to handle it reasonably.

I was under the impression that light would be a factor in the amount of damage dealt and received (much like level/light-level is now). I'll have to go back & listen to the broadcast again & see if I can glean any further details.

Also, this is an interesting thought: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/3hmie9/why_year_1_weapons_will_still_matter_with_simple/

With the current system, I can quickly tell if someone is more or less powerful by their level. With the new system, we could both have a 40 above our heads, but have very different light levels. How do we know at a quick glance what we're up against?

I do want to point out that it does seem to serve a purpose. PvE activities will have a recommended light level, IIRC. This helps you know if you've got enough strength/toughness etc to handle it reasonably.

So it's essentially a return of the screen from the Alpha which rates your gear against the activity difficulty:

Your Light score is an average of the Attack and Defense values across all of your currently equipped gear. A higher Light score improves both your damage output and your defense.

So, sounds to me like equipping armor with greater defense will increase your light level which will therefore increase both your damage output and your defense.

Edit: Isn't that 'Current Light' bar at the bottom interesting? it's part way between 186 & 187. That seems quite odd to me. I wonder if that's how it's going to be, or if they just haven't finished updating that bit of the UI yet.

Your Light score is an average of the Attack and Defense values across all of your currently equipped gear. A higher Light score improves both your damage output and your defense.

So, sounds to me like equipping armor with greater defense will increase your light level which will therefore increase both your damage output and your defense.

If it works the way I think, the wording is bad. If it works the way the wording literally says, then we now have three things that are part of the calculation for damage dealt: level (are you below enemy level), weapon attack power, and the light level. As such, you really could do more damage by putting on better armor.

I am thinking they meant: "A higher light level is representative of a higher damage output and defense". It's not the light that is making you do more damage, it's the higher attack power, which in turn raises the light level. It's essentially a "useless" stat now, whereas light did something meaningful before (raised your level).

Again, if the wording is literally correct then it's even more confusing, and I just don't even.

Edit: Isn't that 'Current Light' bar at the bottom interesting? it's part way between 186 & 187. That seems quite odd to me. I wonder if that's how it's going to be, or if they just haven't finished updating that bit of the UI yet.

I don't know why they are using a bar, but I think it's so you can see the fractions in your average.

...we now have three things that are part of the calculation for damage dealt: level (are you below enemy level), weapon attack power, and the light level. As such, you really could do more damage by putting on better armor.

Are we sure that the bolded part is not being changed in TTK? From all the language they've used surrounding your light score, I got the impression that levels affecting your defense/attack is being phased out.

...we now have three things that are part of the calculation for damage dealt: level (are you below enemy level), weapon attack power, and the light level. As such, you really could do more damage by putting on better armor.

Are we sure that the bolded part is not being changed in TTK? From all the language they've used surrounding your light score, I got the impression that levels affecting your defense/attack is being phased out.

So you're saying that the only thing level will do in TTK, is prevent you from equipping gear if you aren't high enough? You think a level 20 can waltz into Crota Hard with their 365 weapons and Raid armor and rock his shit?

...we now have three things that are part of the calculation for damage dealt: level (are you below enemy level), weapon attack power, and the light level. As such, you really could do more damage by putting on better armor.

Are we sure that the bolded part is not being changed in TTK? From all the language they've used surrounding your light score, I got the impression that levels affecting your defense/attack is being phased out.

So you're saying that the only thing level will do in TTK, is prevent you from equipping gear if you aren't high enough? You think a level 20 can waltz into Crota Hard with their 365 weapons and Raid armor and rock his shit?

Equipping gear, and restricting you from activities that are more than three levels above you (as the game currently does), maybe? I think the implication is that if your light score is high enough, your level shouldn't be an issue.

I haven't been following all the updates, but I'd thought levels were replacing light levels. Keeping them both seems redundumb.

Before these changes, your character's power was essentially reliant on RNG, and the system of light level, was unforgiving. You could go from 109 light to 119 light and still be level 29. You worked, got better gear, but are 1 light from the huge boost between 29 to 30. With the new system, you will incrementally grow more powerful with each better piece of gear you attain. The gear itself is attained in more directed ways, so the game makes progressing easier and more reasonable.

Also, switching Level to the gate to your gear means that every time a new expansion comes out, you have a reason to play the content, to get experience, to get levels, so that you can wear the top tier gear. This system really is similar to other RPG's.

Things are still foggy though... If I have a 160 Attack Fatebringer, but all my other gear is 280, then my light will be 267. Does the Fatebringer do damage based off of my light of 267 or based off it's attack of 160? Is the attack of 160 a base that is then multiplied by my light? Who knows!? (Personally, I hope the gear attack/defense functions as a base, which is then compared to overall light to determine attack/defense. Because that way both numbers matter significantly, and that way old gear really will phase out quickly.)

Also, I have a feeling that 280 light is the vendor level of gear and 300 will be Raid and End Game level gear... Just my thoughts, it seems so obvious, but maybe I'm crazy.

I really see a huge improvement from this system regardless of the current confusion over how exactly everything works. Why? Because there is a clear path to level 40, and a clear path to getting high light gear. If the RNG is friendly, as has been repeatedly suggested, I think this release will vastly improve our experience in the game.

Your Light score is an average of the Attack and Defense values across all of your currently equipped gear. A higher Light score improves both your damage output and your defense.

So, sounds to me like equipping armor with greater defense will increase your light level which will therefore increase both your damage output and your defense.

If it works the way I think, the wording is bad. If it works the way the wording says, then we now have three things that are part of the calculation for damage dealt: level (are you below enemy level), weapon attack power, and the light level.

I am thinking they meant: "A higher light level is representative of a higher damage output and defense".

That is the root of the question. As the famous swordsman Inigo Montoya once said, "I do not think it means what you think it means..." (directed at Bungie from us)

I had the thought that perhaps character level (20) and light (16) are presently both input into the damage formula as separate variables, and the damage calculations won't actually be changing; just the way our light level is calculated is changing. For example: ((186 + 175 + 200 + 190 + 181 + 190 + 168)/7 - 160)/10 = light level) where the first 7 #'s are your armor & weapons values and the 160 is the equivalent to "zero light" and the divide by 10 is to bring it into current light level ranges. If this is the case then the question I would have is what attack/defense power is equivalent to zero light?

This works because our new character level will be equal to our current character level + our light level and they're re-working the attack/defense values of our gear.

So, it could be that at character level 32 with the appropriate light (200?) you could be dealing and receiving damage as if you were level 34... which could be confusing, yet also kind of cool in that at max level (40) you could effectively reach past that with the appropriate gear.

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Edit: Isn't that 'Current Light' bar at the bottom interesting? it's part way between 186 & 187. That seems quite odd to me. I wonder if that's how it's going to be, or if they just haven't finished updating that bit of the UI yet.

I don't know why they are using a bar, but I think it's so you can see the fractions in your average.

I had that same thought.

So I've got a 280 Scout Rifle but I've got really crappy armor and my average Light score is 150. My damage delivered is going to be greatly reduced?

Interesting; I've never seen that screen (I started with the Beta). Thanks.

So I've got a 280 Scout Rifle but I've got really crappy armor and my average Light score is 150. My damage delivered is going to be greatly reduced?

I would imagine they'd have a floor minimum of 0 on that formula, so you just wouldn't get any EXTRA damage because your light level isn't above the 'base' level.

Really, I was just pondering how they might do it.

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Just because other games are like this doesn't mean it's optimal. But it does give everyone something to talk & think about, which makes an old game a bit more interesting.

I guess I prefer simpler, straightforward stats : Level 40 requirement to equip. Weapon does 100-120 with 2 attacks per second against all enemies no matter their level, PvP and PvE. No matter what gear you are wearing. No matter what range you are shooting from. I don't see why all these fancy additions make things better or more fun.

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Its really all speculation. If I were making the formula, I'd weight gun light higher than an individual armor piece when calculating damage. Similarly, I'd weight armor light higher than weapon light when calculating how much damage is received.

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If this is in fact how weapon ratings play in to your overall damage output, then comparing weapon stats alone could in fact be a bit misleading. Personally, I would assume that a weapon with a rating of 300 would do nearly twice the damage of a weapon rated 160 (all other things being equal), but is sounds like that might only be a very slight difference in damage output.

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Got to play a bunch of the new Warzone PvPvE mode, and got a behind-closed-doors campaign demo. It's all looking and feeling really promising. It feels new and fresh, but still classic "Halo". I think 343 is striking a much better balance this time around in terms of making the game feel modern and fresh without alienating Halo fans.

did you drive a hog in campaign?

I can talk about it... Nothing I saw or played was embargoed. I was thinking of doing a post over at HBO as well, but I could certainly talk about it here if the DBO crowd is interested.

No, I didn't get a chance to drive a warthog in campaign. I did in Multiplayer, though.

How much more quickly does the average of 45 and 34 tell you how your gear is doing than the two numbers 45 and 34 do?

Much quicker when you're looking at the eight or so pieces of weapons and gear Destiny actually has and not my simplified example. :)

It seems to me, what I really need to know are my attack and defense numbers. A player with high attack and low defense needs to play differently than a player with high defense and low attack, even if they average out to the same number.

If Light is no longer used either as a gate, or in calculations... then yeah, it's redundant.

They have said activities will have recommended light levels, so again, Light is just a simple reference number now, which sounds nice to me. I'll keep an eye on all my numbers but that Light will give me quick impressions on my teammates and refreshers on my other characters. Above all, Light will indicate level of power and not dictate it, which has been a hamper on my ability to play Destiny how I want to in the past.

Which number in Skyrim is analogous to light? It's been awhile, but I can't think of one. My gear has armor ratings, my weapons have offensive ratings, and my character has a level. Destiny now has all of those, plus light. Where's the light in Skyrim?

Not there. I guess I wasn't very clear, but I was just saying levels will now basically work the same as in those games (and most RPGs). Your character ranks up based on gaining XP from doing stuff. Now, independently, you try to get better gear (that doesn't change your level) at the same time. Light is just a way to track that second ongoing quest.

In Skyrim, Dragonbone armor and Ebony weapons have high statistics. Teleport a character with that kind of gear into Destiny and you'd be able to use his or her Light number to see they have high quality crap without inspecting each piece.

Since I almost exclusively play as Hunter right now, I have no idea what's good armor for a Warlock or Titan. There's also so many guns in the game, I can't know them all off-hand either. Light gives me a simple number to compare.

With the current system, I can quickly tell if someone is more or less powerful by their level. With the new system, we could both have a 40 above our heads, but have very different light levels. How do we know at a quick glance what we're up against?

According to BWU, light level is visible on your nameplate as well.

The info we're still missing is if our level (1-40) still impacts our damage output and armor. As in: if 2 players have the same light level, but one is 33 and the other is 34, is the 33 at a disadvantage?

The best possible explanation I've heard is that our 1-40 level has nothing to do with our armor or damage output... but it DOES determine what gear we are able to equip, and THAT is reflected by our light level.

The info we're still missing is if our level (1-40) still impacts our damage output and armor. As in: if 2 players have the same light level, but one is 33 and the other is 34, is the 33 at a disadvantage?

The best possible explanation I've heard is that our 1-40 level has nothing to do with our armor or damage output... but it DOES determine what gear we are able to equip, and THAT is reflected by our light level.

Right, but with the question specifically about IB and trials, we will know in the future (because we'll have figured it out) and you can still see it at a glance. That was the primary concern brought up by bluerunner

which characters did you interact with?

The info we're still missing is if our level (1-40) still impacts our damage output and armor. As in: if 2 players have the same light level, but one is 33 and the other is 34, is the 33 at a disadvantage?

The best possible explanation I've heard is that our 1-40 level has nothing to do with our armor or damage output... but it DOES determine what gear we are able to equip, and THAT is reflected by our light level.

Right, but with the question specifically about IB and trials, we will know in the future (because we'll have figured it out) and you can still see it at a glance. That was the primary concern brought up by bluerunner

Yes, being able to see it is important. My first concern with all of this was that we would need to take both rank and light levels into account. So if I went in to trials and inspected another player, I'd say "well my light level is higher but his rank is higher so I have no idea what is going to happen". I doubt it will play out like that, though.

I'm pretty excited.

Level is experience, light is quality of your gear.

The more experience you have the better gear you can get. Experience (level) determines what activities you can participate in. Your effectiveness is determined by your gear choices.

That's my understanding...

which characters did you interact with?

I only played multiplayer... I watched a campaign demonstration. Tim Longo (the creative director) played a chunk of the 2nd mission for us.

The multiplayer mode I played is called Warzone. It is a 24 player PvPvE mode. Each team spawns on opposite sides of a huge playspace that contains several bases or capture points. You will spawn directly in front of a base that is controlled by AI enemies (forerunner or covenant). You must clear out the enemies to take control of the base for your team. Once your home base is established, you gain access to requisition terminals. As the match progresses, you earn requisition points that can be spent at these terminals. You earn points by scoring kills, assists, capturing control points, etc. You can customize your loadout from a selection of default weapons, buy heavy or special weapons (shotguns, snipers, rockets, swords, etc), or buy vehicles.

Between the 2 opposing home bases are several secondary bases. These bases act as capture points which can be taken and held. If your team is able to capture and hold all secondary bases, the enemy team's generator in their home base becomes exposed and vulnerable to attack. Destroying the enemy team's reactor is 1 possible way to achieve victory. You can also win by reaching the target point score (the build I played had a winning score of 1000 points).

While this push to control capture points is happening, there are still enemy AI forces moving through the area. Killing them will earn requisition points. From time to time, enemy Boss characters will appear in the area. Killing them awards a large chunk of requisition points.

So there is A LOT going on. The battlefield feels a bit more chaotic than Halo multiplayer usually does, but not so much that it loses focus. The cool thing is you always have options. The hardcore PvP players will go out of their way to target the enemy team. Campaign or co-op fans can focus their attention of taking out the AI targets and bosses to earn points for their team. Vehicle lovers will have a blast saving up requisition points and buying warthogs, banshees and more from the vehicle bays.

The gunplay feels great (not quite as good as Destiny, but close IMO). The new spartan abilities are all nice additions to the game as well. You feel slightly more mobile and powerful than in previous Halos.

For campaign, I saw about 10 minutes of gameplay and a couple cutscenes. I won't spoil the cutscene's... I'll just say they were very cool.
The gameplay I saw featured Chief and the rest of Blue Team fighting a bunch of covenant. It was classic Halo combat, but the environments felt a touch wider, with more vertical layering going on. You can tell the playspaces and encounters have been designed with Co-op in mind. Plenty of opportunities for flanking maneuvers and taking different paths to hit enemies from various angles. The squad orders felt right at home within the Halo sandbox. Its one of those features where you see it in action and say "why hasn't this been in the series all along?". I got some definite Republic Commando vibes from it. Not too much... just the right amount :)

Overall, I came away more excited for the future of Halo than I have been in years!

So if I went in to trials and inspected another player, I'd say "well my light level is higher but his rank is higher so I have no idea what is going to happen". I doubt it will play out like that, though.

Also, realistically, it'll be a week and everyone will be at level 40 anyway, so that part won't be relevant.

According to BWU, light level is visible on your nameplate as well.

But not above someone's head in a game. It seems to me like light level is the indicator of power, while level is just an experience level. I would like to know power level of an enemy rather than experience. This is doubly confusing for me in regard to PvE. According to how I understand this, I could possibly be destroyed by an enemy at the same "level" as me, or crush them, all depending on my gear. There's no way for me to quickly know how I will fare against them by just looking at their level.

According to BWU, light level is visible on your nameplate as well.

But not above someone's head in a game. It seems to me like light level is the indicator of power, while level is just an experience level. I would like to know power level of an enemy rather than experience. This is doubly confusing for me in regard to PvE. According to how I understand this, I could possibly be destroyed by an enemy at the same "level" as me, or crush them, all depending on my gear. There's no way for me to quickly know how I will fate against them by just looking at their level.

Huh, I never even look at levels above people's names. Only in the menu so I can see what level/gear they have.

Huh, I never even look at levels above people's names. Only in the menu so I can see what level/gear they have.

I'm probably making a bigger deal out of it than it really is, but I am having flashbacks of the first time I went into Trials underleveled. The PVE part of it is more confusing to me.

I can talk about it... Nothing I saw or played was embargoed. I was thinking of doing a post over at HBO as well, but I could certainly talk about it here if the DBO crowd is interested.

Here is fine. HBO hasn't been the same since it merged with Tumblr.

How much more quickly does the average of 45 and 34 tell you how your gear is doing than the two numbers 45 and 34 do?

Much quicker when you're looking at the eight or so pieces of weapons and gear Destiny actually has and not my simplified example. :)

I can see why armor defensive stats should aggregate (NOT average!) but why should my two non-equipped weapons affect how well the weapon I'm holding performs?

I could see why my "level" should affect that, whether that is derived from earned XP or light earned from gear, but why should a purple scout rifle in my hand perform worse or better based on the quality of the rocket launcher on my back?

That's aggressively dumb, if that's the way it works. If not.. okay, but if this is Bungie abandoning the "the thing that's different about our game is how you level above the soft cap" then they explained the idea better than they explained the abandonment of it.

I could see why my "level" should affect that, whether that is derived from earned XP or light earned from gear, but why should a purple scout rifle in my hand perform worse or better based on the quality of the rocket launcher on my back?

The wording is just bad. I don't think that's how it works. Your scout rifle will do the damage it does based on your attack, and your level if the enemy is above it. Light level doesn't affect your power, it is representative of it. Or so I'd hope.

You are right though, in that defense and weapon damage are too different of stats to be lumped together. Defense doesn't matter if you never get hit, so you could have very little, yet have kickass weapons and clean up from a distance. But then you'd have two light levels for defense and attack, which would be even more confusing.

I thought the Alpha did it just fine, by telling you if your overall defense was up to par, and each individual weapon you had equipped.

That mode sounds awesome, and I can see why people are saying it's got some MOBA inspirations.

I loved the beta and am pretty excited about the focus on co-op for the campaign. Glad to hear it's shaping up well. They've just got to nail stable/fast matchmaking.