-OT- Video
This is episode 1 of a series of videos I stumbled upon a few years ago. Always loved Carl and the editing is top notch. Had an impact on me then and has an uncanny likeness to the ideas of Destiny. Warning, this video may be moving:
-OT- Video
by Claude Errera 
, Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 04:48 (4208 days ago) @ Axelrod vK
Guy was pretty sharp. I miss him. :(
You prompted me to check something I've been meaning to check for a while. Yes, Cosmos is streaming on Netflix.
Thanks. That was beautiful.
Such mind shattering awesomeness
by Grizzlei 
, Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 11:09 (4207 days ago) @ Axelrod vK
edited by Grizzlei, Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 11:13
I fell in love with the teachings of Mr. Sagan long ago. He gave me a deeper appreciation for our planet, the life that flourishes on it, and the universe we all enjoy inhabiting. The name "Natalie Mikkelborg" will likely never be associated with celestial explorers such as Yuri Gagarin, Neil Armstrong, or my favorite astronaut, Chris Hadfield. While I've haven't given up hope, I take solace knowing my future career in joining the radically different cultures of Earth in aspiring to a common greatness. Ahhh that made me tear up a bit. :)
Thanks for sharing this, Axelrod!
There must be something in the water.
by SonofMacPhisto , Thursday, May 30, 2013, 14:59 (4206 days ago) @ Axelrod vK
I wrote this recently, and it was inspired by a lot of Sagan. One of those things I had to let out of my brain before it drilled its own way out.
http://sonofmacphisto.tumblr.com/post/51598058958/the-way-the-world-ends
Anyway, just sharing. Carry on. :)
The irony
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 31, 2013, 10:24 (4205 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto
Nice piece. This struck me:
I think video games are on to something. I think they are on to the fact we really are the masters of our destinies, and if we so choose, we can last against everything the universe throws at us.
This is true. You are the master of your own destiny. The strong man says that his fate is because of what he does. Isn't it ironic then, that so many people live out the fantasy adventures of games in the virtual world, instead of having real adventures themselves?
This is part of the reason why I don't play so many video games, nor in as dedicated a manner as I used to.
Nice piece. This struck me:
Thanks!
I think video games are on to something. I think they are on to the fact we really are the masters of our destinies, and if we so choose, we can last against everything the universe throws at us.
This is true. You are the master of your own destiny. The strong man says that his fate is because of what he does. Isn't it ironic then, that so many people live out the fantasy adventures of games in the virtual world, instead of having real adventures themselves?This is part of the reason why I don't play so many video games, nor in as dedicated a manner as I used to.
That reminds me of what I recently read in Walden - Henry David is lamenting folks that inherit business and land from their parents, asking if a man should be digging his own grave at birth. Do you mind if I post your comment on my blog?
The irony
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 31, 2013, 14:46 (4205 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto
Nice piece. This struck me:
Thanks!
I think video games are on to something. I think they are on to the fact we really are the masters of our destinies, and if we so choose, we can last against everything the universe throws at us.
This is true. You are the master of your own destiny. The strong man says that his fate is because of what he does. Isn't it ironic then, that so many people live out the fantasy adventures of games in the virtual world, instead of having real adventures themselves?This is part of the reason why I don't play so many video games, nor in as dedicated a manner as I used to.
That reminds me of what I recently read in Walden - Henry David is lamenting folks that inherit business and land from their parents, asking if a man should be digging his own grave at birth. Do you mind if I post your comment on my blog?
Naw dude, as long as you source it back to here it's cool.
Cool. Done.
Something else kinda related, if you're interested. My spouse wrote it. We talk a lot on these subjects, as one can imagine.
Nice read.
I would say that storytelling is a way of having experiences without having them first hand, although the interactivity of video games adds a wrinkle to that. What is the benefit of those experiences? At best they involve us imaginatively and in that way prepare us to understand and respond courageously to our real life story, both as events unfold and as we process what has happened to us.
I had a similar experience as your spouse with Star Trek, the Next Generation. (True confession: I was always more of a Star Wars guy [before Lucas f*cked it up], although I appreciated both--that's a different discussion, though.)
My college roommate watched the Next Generation religiously in syndication, and I did occasionally, but not enough to know all the characters very well. One day I caught the end of the show where Tasha Yar was killed. (I just now looked up her name.) I think I'd missed the first half, but what I remember was her last will and testament on the holodeck.
I lost it, and could not explain why at first--I didn't even know the character. Later I connected the dots. Less than a year before I'd lost my youngest sister. She, like the actress, was young, blonde, and beautiful. I had certainly mourned her, but I had not wept like I did that day, and it was a relief. It's been 20 years, so I'm not telling this here to get sympathy--I don't need it now. I tell it to testify that fantasy helps us with reality.
I wholeheartedly agree with Cody that we need to give our real life adventure the attention it deserves. These silly entertainments we pursue, however, can sometimes show us how.
The irony
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 31, 2013, 19:39 (4205 days ago) @ Kermit
edited by Cody Miller, Friday, May 31, 2013, 19:52
I wholeheartedly agree with Cody that we need to give our real life adventure the attention it deserves. These silly entertainments we pursue, however, can sometimes show us how.
I disagree. Baudrillard explains it well.
Entertainment not only distracts from real life adventure, but it distorts our ability not only to have a real life adventure, but also distorts what real life means.
"I want to climb Mount Everest" someone says. Why? "Because I want to do something adventurous!" How do you know it'll be an adventure? "Because everybody wants to climb it!" Whether it is or is not an adventure isn't the point; the point is that it's adventurous because it's agreed upon that it is. You don't question it. It's a fiction you now accept as reality. This conception of Everest is now more real than the real Everest could ever be.
It adds up. Television, news, the internet, fashion, and yes video games. You're in the Matrix. It's worse than the Matrix actually, since the Matrix is binary. You are either in or out. But the Matrix we are in isn't. There's no in or out; it all blends together as one to the point where you can't tell the difference between the real and the hyperreal. (Consequently this is why Baudrillard himself says the Matrix got his ideas all wrong).
This is why I'm actually quite exited for Don Jon. She watches romantic comedies. He watches porn. Both have had the perspectives skewed on how relationships work. Haha! Watch them try to have one!
Think it doesn't happen to you? You're wrong. You just don't even realize it since it's very difficult to figure out what's real and what's hyperreal. And here's the thing. You don't even know which of your pursuits you want because you want to pursue them purely on your own, or whether you want to pursue it because you have been taught to want it because of the Matrix. Think of how many things are desirable simply because it's pleasurable to be doing something that's seen as desirable.
It's depressing because the adventure can come to you. With a computer, it can all come to you virtually. You can read it, listen to it, or see it. But when everything is available everywhere, everywhere becomes nowhere.
So what do you do? I struggled with this for a while seeing as how I make movies. The bottom line, is that you need to do a bit of soul searching and try to wade your way out of the Matrix. Easier said than done, and I think in any modern society it's almost impossible to be fully out. But the first step becomes understanding and loving yourself, not characters and situations of fiction or documented reality.
The entertainment is for when we wish not to adventure. It's for when we want to be Cypher eating that steak. Let's be honest, that steak is delicious. Nothing wrong but eating it, as long as you know you're in the matrix when you do.
The irony
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Friday, May 31, 2013, 21:23 (4205 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Kermit, Friday, May 31, 2013, 21:35
I wholeheartedly agree with Cody that we need to give our real life adventure the attention it deserves. These silly entertainments we pursue, however, can sometimes show us how.
I disagree. Baudrillard explains it well.Entertainment not only distracts from real life adventure, but it distorts our ability not only to have a real life adventure, but also distorts what real life means.
"I want to climb Mount Everest" someone says. Why? "Because I want to do something adventurous!" How do you know it'll be an adventure? "Because everybody wants to climb it!" Whether it is or is not an adventure isn't the point; the point is that it's adventurous because it's agreed upon that it is. You don't question it. It's a fiction you now accept as reality. This conception of Everest is now more real than the real Everest could ever be.
It adds up. Television, news, the internet, fashion, and yes video games. You're in the Matrix. It's worse than the Matrix actually, since the Matrix is binary. You are either in or out. But the Matrix we are in isn't. There's no in or out; it all blends together as one to the point where you can't tell the difference between the real and the hyperreal. (Consequently this is why Baudrillard himself says the Matrix got his ideas all wrong).
This is why I'm actually quite exited for Don Jon. She watches romantic comedies. He watches porn. Both have had the perspectives skewed on how relationships work. Haha! Watch them try to have one!
Think it doesn't happen to you? You're wrong. You just don't even realize it since it's very difficult to figure out what's real and what's hyperreal. And here's the thing. You don't even know which of your pursuits you want because you want to pursue them purely on your own, or whether you want to pursue it because you have been taught to want it because of the Matrix. Think of how many things are desirable simply because it's pleasurable to be doing something that's seen as desirable.
It's depressing because the adventure can come to you. With a computer, it can all come to you virtually. You can read it, listen to it, or see it. But when everything is available everywhere, everywhere becomes nowhere.
So what do you do? I struggled with this for a while seeing as how I make movies. The bottom line, is that you need to do a bit of soul searching and try to wade your way out of the Matrix. Easier said than done, and I think in any modern society it's almost impossible to be fully out. But the first step becomes understanding and loving yourself, not characters and situations of fiction or documented reality.
The entertainment is for when we wish not to adventure. It's for when we want to be Cypher eating that steak. Let's be honest, that steak is delicious. Nothing wrong but eating it, as long as you know you're in the matrix when you do.
This might disappoint you, but it's possible we still agree (mostly).
I don't know who the someone is you refer to, but it doesn't sound like me. You played the "I make movies card," so I guess I'll play the age card. I was reading poststructuralists while you were just learning to read. I get it, so don't assume you're the only non-yahoo who's thought about these issues. The difference might be that after I got it, I found that philosophical hall of mirrors from which there is no escape to be nihilistic, and rejected it. I've done a quite a lot of soul-searching, and I continue to. Like you, I'm a bit of a snob about what I spend my time on. That's why I'm a Bungie fan. That's why most of what's popular doesn't interest me. I watch very little TV.
I said to someone tonight, Why do I want to see Star Trek or Iron Man? Only to participate in the cultural conversation, and frankly that doesn't feel like enough of a reason. Why do I want to see Don Juan? No doubt for some of the same reasons you do. I think that, as pretentious as this might sound, it could be a bit of entertainment that has something valuable to say about the human condition. Maybe. I may be a bigger snob than you because I don't think Joseph Gordon-Levitt, likeable as he is, is all that.
You seemed not to notice my qualifiers in my previous post. I talked about what at best stories can sometimes do. I have less and less interest in anything that I don't think has the potential to be great. What's great? What enlivens us. What holds up a mirror so that we can better understand and love and accept ourselves and others. Ever experience art so powerful that it changes your understanding of the world in a positive way? I bet you have, and I bet you value that. I have, and I do, too.
- No text -
That's probably the best post I've ever read from you, Kermit. :)
The difference might be that after I got it, I found that philosophical hall of mirrors from which there is no escape to be nihilistic, and rejected it.
This line really resonates. It seems to be a debate (and sometimes the decision) that I make every day. Or hour. My descent into unhealthy over-thinking has occurred in spiraling waves all of my remembered life. Each time, the wave hits worse. In the last seven years, the waves have reduced me to an eternal skeptic in a field of fog with no reason to move, and each time for a longer dose of time. Gorging myself on science or philosophy while in this mode has only ever worsened it. I've found that too often is a truth destroyed by trying to nail it down to exact words, systems, and classifications. That can also be a distortion of our adventure.
But there are things that can be said between words that an essay can never accomplish. Great stories and art, whether they be sentient mattresses from another planet or a 19th century Russian in a duel, can sometimes tell more truth than a whole textbook can.
Reading and interacting with long essay debates in forums have only ever strengthened that perspective. We tear things apart, critique, judge, compare and contrast, and we boil down art to where it ceases to mean anything. So is it surprising that we tend to find fault with a part when we've lost the whole? When I try to use that same language of debate to reply, it's never gotten me anywhere. I can say exactly what I want to, but I'm still left frustrated because I know if I wrote and illustrated a comic strip about what I'm trying to say, it could speak volumes more than my cold calculated essays. Just like how I find truths in Sagan's speeches not just because of what he's saying, but how he's saying it. You can hear the sympathetic passion in his voice. The imagery and music associated with it doesn't hurt either...
So. Anyways, Kermit. I may need to steal this quote from you for one of my silly, escapist comic books... ;)
So. Anyways, Kermit. I may need to steal this quote from you for one of my silly, escapist comic books... ;)
It would be my honor.
This
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, June 01, 2013, 10:23 (4204 days ago) @ Leviathan
I used to do just that that you described, Levi. Over-thinking, over-analyzing, slowly doing less and less because of the sheer number of possibilities stuff could go wrong.
Lately, I have been making conscious effort to keep myself lighthearted. Just trying to enjoy the moments, opposed to nitpicking the hell out of them.
I don't think I have had more fun in a very long time.
I used to do just that that you described, Levi. Over-thinking, over-analyzing, slowly doing less and less because of the sheer number of possibilities stuff could go wrong.
Lately, I have been making conscious effort to keep myself lighthearted. Just trying to enjoy the moments, opposed to nitpicking the hell out of them.
I don't think I have had more fun in a very long time.
Glad to hear it! :) Still working on it myself. The last time the Eternal Skeptic took me for a spin was at the end of a line of art projects and promising career opportunities falling through last year - the kind of opportunities that I wanted to use to validate myself and what I spent all my time on. It was first a depression, but then all of the sudden it fell away into apathy in a single moment. It became a sort of existential crisis. And then during that bout of nothingness, my dog passed away. Since then I've been basically building my world view back up on a broken heart and regret that I wasn't as fun as I could have been the last couple of days with him.
But at least these days the over-thinking is managed and I'm making some art again. I think the problem now is that I'm still waiting for that validation of everything I've been trying to work towards, and it's an outside factor I can't ultimately control. But right now I'm just trying to ignore all that and dedicate what free time I have to my Mayflower comic. Let it consume me.
The irony
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, June 01, 2013, 17:57 (4204 days ago) @ Leviathan
The difference might be that after I got it, I found that philosophical hall of mirrors from which there is no escape to be nihilistic, and rejected it.
This line really resonates. It seems to be a debate (and sometimes the decision) that I make every day. Or hour. My descent into unhealthy over-thinking has occurred in spiraling waves all of my remembered life. Each time, the wave hits worse. In the last seven years, the waves have reduced me to an eternal skeptic in a field of fog with no reason to move, and each time for a longer dose of time. Gorging myself on science or philosophy while in this mode has only ever worsened it. I've found that too often is a truth destroyed by trying to nail it down to exact words, systems, and classifications. That can also be a distortion of our adventure.
I'm really curious as to your experiences, because where you both see nihilism, I see freedom.
The irony
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, June 01, 2013, 18:18 (4204 days ago) @ Cody Miller
I'm really curious as to your experiences, because where you both see nihilism, I see freedom.
Ah, well, it is all a matter of perspective. I used to see it as freedom, as you put it, but can't you think of any point in which it could turn unhealthy or at least very unproductive?
The irony
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, June 01, 2013, 18:21 (4204 days ago) @ ZackDark
I'm really curious as to your experiences, because where you both see nihilism, I see freedom.
Ah, well, it is all a matter of perspective. I used to see it as freedom, as you put it, but can't you think of any point in which it could turn unhealthy or at least very unproductive?
I'm not going to go around thinking all day. Take what you learn, then go DO. It's freeing because the things that you can DO after thinking are so much more rewarding than if you don't think in the first place.
The irony
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, June 01, 2013, 18:24 (4204 days ago) @ Cody Miller
I'm not going to go around thinking all day. Take what you learn, then go DO. It's freeing because the things that you can DO after thinking are so much more rewarding than if you don't think in the first place.
That I can agree with. Not 100% applicable to 100% of situations, but I agree.
The matter arises when you start missing things out because you were thinking, instead of doing. And these days, opportunities come and go fast.
He's Everywhere!
by narcogen , Andover, Massachusetts, Saturday, June 01, 2013, 21:41 (4204 days ago) @ Cody Miller
I'm really curious as to your experiences, because where you both see nihilism, I see freedom.
Durandal? Is that you?
The irony
by Oholiab , Saturday, June 01, 2013, 09:58 (4204 days ago) @ Kermit
Deep thinking about life in on a video game fan site? I knew I joined the right community (:
You're forgetting
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, June 01, 2013, 17:56 (4204 days ago) @ Kermit
edited by Cody Miller, Saturday, June 01, 2013, 18:00
You're forgetting that nearly all of the creative works out there are products of the matrix. And like the people in Plato's cave who only see white when they look out the entrance, they can;t talk about what's outside without going there first. You're right that good art is hard to find, but I think it's rarer than you admit.
This is why all great art has genesis in real experience.
This also makes me wonder why you even bother with video games at all if your standards are as high as you say, when they are the lowest of the low when it comes to exploring the human condition in a serious way. I know of 2 that provide original and meaningful insight. Both by the same guy. Both with lots of garbage mixed in. "But Cody, plenty of other games explore worthwhile themes!" I'll answer your objection with a question: "You think that's air you're breathing?"
The reason why games fail should be obvious: most of the people making games never have any real experiences about the things they make games about. At best, they have the matrix to tell them.
Great point
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, June 01, 2013, 18:19 (4204 days ago) @ Cody Miller
- No text -
You're forgetting
by Leviathan , Hotel Zanzibar, Saturday, June 01, 2013, 20:39 (4204 days ago) @ Cody Miller
You're forgetting that nearly all of the creative works out there are products of the matrix. And like the people in Plato's cave who only see white when they look out the entrance, they can;t talk about what's outside without going there first. You're right that good art is hard to find, but I think it's rarer than you admit.
This is why all great art has genesis in real experience.
This also makes me wonder why you even bother with video games at all if your standards are as high as you say, when they are the lowest of the low when it comes to exploring the human condition in a serious way. I know of 2 that provide original and meaningful insight. Both by the same guy. Both with lots of garbage mixed in. "But Cody, plenty of other games explore worthwhile themes!" I'll answer your objection with a question: "You think that's air you're breathing?"
The reason why games fail should be obvious: most of the people making games never have any real experiences about the things they make games about. At best, they have the matrix to tell them.
I actually had a few paragraphs written up in reply, but I remembered why I usually have a 'Do Not Reply To Cody' policy in effect: I realize I'm not actually arguing with you, I'm just debating a contrarian and pretentious attitude and its claims to know things it can't possibly know.
You may not like a lot of art and entertainment (I think huge swaths of it are rubbish as well), but it's quite a leap to think you know the artist and what they're thinking.
I'm working on a comic with spaceships and whale-frog hybrids right now. And it's all inspired by my 'real experiences'. But you may read it and dislike it, and then, like in this post, might claim I'm just writing escapist rubbish to make an impact or impress people... and you'd be wrong.
Not about it being rubbish, mind you, it could quite possibly be that. But just because you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't sincere and inspired by something real and meaningful. It doesn't mean it wasn't meant to incite reflection back on your own 'real experiences'.
The world outside the cave is a wide one, and as such, different stories resonate with different people for different reasons in different ways.
- No text -
You're forgetting
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, June 01, 2013, 21:05 (4204 days ago) @ Leviathan
You may not like a lot of art and entertainment (I think huge swaths of it are rubbish as well), but it's quite a leap to think you know the artist and what they're thinking.
Isn't the point of art expression? By looking at the art, you see what was being expressed - the thinking, the idea the artist has. That's the whole POINT. You know the artist by his work, or else his work is not authentic (or not art).
I'm working on a comic with spaceships and whale-frog hybrids right now. And it's all inspired by my 'real experiences'. But you may read it and dislike it, and then, like in this post, might claim I'm just writing escapist rubbish to make an impact or impress people... and you'd be wrong.Not about it being rubbish, mind you, it could quite possibly be that. But just because you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't sincere and inspired by something real and meaningful. It doesn't mean it wasn't meant to incite reflection back on your own 'real experiences'.
The world outside the cave is a wide one, and as such, different stories resonate with different people for different reasons in different ways.
I am not sure how any of that would contradict what I've been saying… in fact I'd even go so far as to say you are completely right about that.
You're forgetting
by Leviathan , Hotel Zanzibar, Saturday, June 01, 2013, 21:53 (4204 days ago) @ Cody Miller
Isn't the point of art expression? By looking at the art, you see what was being expressed - the thinking, the idea the artist has. That's the whole POINT. You know the artist by his work, or else his work is not authentic (or not art).
Let's not get into the point of art because that's an endless, and likely unhealthy, debate. But whatever it is - expression, creation, communication, art for art's sake - it isn't a 1:1 ratio from the creator to the audience.
One story, one painting, doesn't have one interpretation or reaction, even if the author or academia tries to force it down your throat. Even if you think you got the same reaction as someone else, the uniqueness of your lives will likely create some subtle differences.
I can make a comic that forces some agenda, and then see somebody read it and get something completely new out of it I never saw. Because I can't be every person in the world and I can't have experienced all of their unique lives.
So the elements of my art are like variables. Sometimes the numbers I assign to them are the same numbers other people assign and they get what I'm trying to say (or express or present).
Sometimes people with different backgrounds and personalities and experiences assign different numbers and so their solution is going to also be different. Some of those people will take out things I never even imagined. Others might end up with a zero or negative number. But that doesn't mean the equation was necessarily flawed or false, it could just mean their numbers work better with other equations.
(And I believe trying to make the equation account for every variable will likely create something that works with NO variables.)
So as a creator, I wouldn't want to tell those people with different solutions they're wrong - I'd just be proud I was able to invoke anything that could impact or help their own equations.
As the receiver, I wouldn't want to tell people who got the solution differently they're wrong or have bad tastes. No, I could instead share with them and see how different inputs create different outcomes and gain wider views of the original equation.
And if I got a negative number from the author's creations? Maybe I shouldn't say the author is an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Maybe it wasn't even meant for me. Maybe I'm just not in the position to understand it at this point. Maybe I never will. The world outside the cave is a wide one.
Never let it be said
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, June 01, 2013, 22:02 (4204 days ago) @ Leviathan
Never let it be said that I don't respect you or your opinion.
I have nothing to say… because I have nothing to say. I'm reading your words and your perspective carefully. I don't know if they'll change my views or not.
But I have to think about it before I give a response.
Never let it be said
by Leviathan , Hotel Zanzibar, Saturday, June 01, 2013, 22:04 (4204 days ago) @ Cody Miller
Never let it be said that I don't respect you or your opinion.
I have nothing to say… because I have nothing to say. I'm reading your words and your perspective carefully. I don't know if they'll change my views or not.
But I have to think about it before I give a response.
I'm pretty tired, I think I'll let my brain meditate too for a while. :)
And if I got a negative number from the author's creations? Maybe I shouldn't say the author is an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Maybe it wasn't even meant for me. Maybe I'm just not in the position to understand it at this point. Maybe I never will. The world outside the cave is a wide one.
Tru7h.
You're forgetting
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, June 07, 2013, 18:53 (4198 days ago) @ Leviathan
So as a creator, I wouldn't want to tell those people with different solutions they're wrong - I'd just be proud I was able to invoke anything that could impact or help their own equations.As the receiver, I wouldn't want to tell people who got the solution differently they're wrong or have bad tastes. No, I could instead share with them and see how different inputs create different outcomes and gain wider views of the original equation.
And if I got a negative number from the author's creations? Maybe I shouldn't say the author is an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Maybe it wasn't even meant for me. Maybe I'm just not in the position to understand it at this point. Maybe I never will. The world outside the cave is a wide one.
I've thought about this, and I think ultimately that a misinterpretation of a work of art is either the failure of the person viewing who himself lacks the life experience (or intelligence) to correctly interpret it, or it is a failure of the artist who either lacks the life experience himself (and is drawing from the 'matrix' instead of his own experience), or lacks the life experience to know how other people experience things.
In a sense you are right - no two people have the same experience, but I'm not sure that's applicable to what I'm saying. Someone once said (I forget who), that the true genius is not the one who proves everyone wrong but himself, but the person who proves everybody right.
You're forgetting
by Leviathan , Hotel Zanzibar, Friday, June 07, 2013, 20:26 (4198 days ago) @ Cody Miller
I've thought about this, and I think ultimately that a misinterpretation of a work of art is either the failure of the person viewing who himself lacks the life experience (or intelligence) to correctly interpret it, or it is a failure of the artist who either lacks the life experience himself (and is drawing from the 'matrix' instead of his own experience), or lacks the life experience to know how other people experience things.
I don't even think there IS such a thing as a misinterpretation and 'successes' and 'failures' in this regard - and that's what makes art and the world amazing. Once you set your stories free they can become entirely different things to different people - they become a crystal with an infinite amount of facets that can be peered into and compared, which then only builds more facets...
And where the 'matrix' ends and a 'real' experience begins is a vague line for me; sometimes I don't think there's a difference at all. From all the dreams I've had and stories I've experienced, I sometimes feel like I've lived hundreds of lives -lives that rise and fall in my subconscious like half-remembered dreams. And they inspire me and invite new dreams I want to illustrate. They come from a different place than my waking reality, but not necessarily less of a place.
That girl that I dreamed of 5 years ago... The one I fell in love with and then broke her heart... The hard emotions that stayed with me as I awoke... Should I have disregarded all that because I never 'truly' experienced it? Were those emotions somehow worth less than others? And if I poured that experience into a story... would that story be a waste of time? Could I or anyone else not learn from that or resonate with it? The girl was a dream, the emotions were real, and a false story created a truth. So was it 'false' to begin with?
Just because it's a story, a metaphor, a dream, a matrix, that doesn't make it less real to me - it's just a different beast is all. And I can learn from all of types and kinds. Whether I'm in-line with the author's intent or not, I can still take something meaningful and wonderful from their work. Sometimes an author's accidents can turn into fireworks for a reader, and I think that's worth celebrating.
I've found that last paragraph is best read in a Bob Ross voice, btw.
You're forgetting
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, June 08, 2013, 00:46 (4198 days ago) @ Leviathan
edited by Cody Miller, Saturday, June 08, 2013, 00:51
And where the 'matrix' ends and a 'real' experience begins is a vague line for me; sometimes I don't think there's a difference at all. From all the dreams I've had and stories I've experienced, I sometimes feel like I've lived hundreds of lives -lives that rise and fall in my subconscious like half-remembered dreams. And they inspire me and invite new dreams I want to illustrate. They come from a different place than my waking reality, but not necessarily less of a place.
That girl that I dreamed of 5 years ago... The one I fell in love with and then broke her heart... The hard emotions that stayed with me as I awoke... Should I have disregarded all that because I never 'truly' experienced it? Were those emotions somehow worth less than others? And if I poured that experience into a story... would that story be a waste of time? Could I or anyone else not learn from that or resonate with it? The girl was a dream, the emotions were real, and a false story created a truth. So was it 'false' to begin with?
Have you ever really been in love? With an actual human being, not with a dream; something you can't control and someone who has thoughts and feelings of her own? Your story could very very interesting, but it's not a story about real love. Your dream girl does what your mind wants / fears, not what she wants. Love is also about the other person. And so this is actually a fairly good example if you use your experience to make some kind of statement about true love or whatever, since that's only your mind's conception (or even its wish) of what love and heartbreak are. The matrix feels real while you're in it. (unless I misunderstand, and you dream of a woman who is or was real whom you really were in love with).
Even in real life, people kiss, but is the kiss real? Or is it a rehearsal of what you saw on TV or used to do in the past? At least then the girl is real even if the kiss isn't.
From all the dreams I've had and stories I've experienced, I sometimes feel like I've lived hundreds of lives
Exactly what I'm talking about. You haven't lived those lives. You've only lived your own. Do you watch COPS and think you've lived the life of a cop? Watch Mad Men and think you know what the 60s were really like? You're in the matrix…
Just because it's a story, a metaphor, a dream, a matrix, that doesn't make it less real to me - it's just a different beast is all. And I can learn from all of types and kinds. Whether I'm in-line with the author's intent or not, I can still take something meaningful and wonderful from their work. Sometimes an author's accidents can turn into fireworks for a reader, and I think that's worth celebrating.
Hence my 'the genius proves everybody right' comment.
Even in real life, people kiss, but is the kiss real? Or is it a rehearsal of what you saw on TV or used to do in the past? At least then the girl is real even if the kiss isn't.
Porn is a great example of the potential disconnect between fantasy and reality.
You're forgetting
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, June 08, 2013, 16:13 (4197 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto
Porn's goal usually isn't to emotionally connect the viewer to it, so I think that is invalid.
Do the viewers always know that?
Heh. It would be funny if most didn't
by ZackDark , Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, June 09, 2013, 09:54 (4196 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto
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Heh. It would be funny if most didn't
by SonofMacPhisto , Sunday, June 09, 2013, 11:19 (4196 days ago) @ ZackDark
There appears to be plenty that don't. I saw a popular women's fitness magazine yesterday with the headline, 'GET A BODY BUILT FOR SEX.'
What an absurd thing to say.
You're forgetting
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Sunday, June 09, 2013, 10:46 (4196 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Kermit, Sunday, June 09, 2013, 11:33
From all the dreams I've had and stories I've experienced, I sometimes feel like I've lived hundreds of lives
Exactly what I'm talking about. You haven't lived those lives. You've only lived your own. Do you watch COPS and think you've lived the life of a cop? Watch Mad Men and think you know what the 60s were really like? You're in the matrix…
Just because it's a story, a metaphor, a dream, a matrix, that doesn't make it less real to me - it's just a different beast is all. And I can learn from all of types and kinds. Whether I'm in-line with the author's intent or not, I can still take something meaningful and wonderful from their work. Sometimes an author's accidents can turn into fireworks for a reader, and I think that's worth celebrating.
Hence my 'the genius proves everybody right' comment.
I'm still not sure what is meant by "genius proves everybody right" (Original ource? It's an interesting thought. I'd like to know the context). Are you saying that the work of geniuses seems in accordance with what we know of reality? Here's a relevant quote from Tolkien in his essay "On Fairy Stories":
Probably every writer making a secondary world, a fantasy, every sub-creator, wishes in some measure to be a real maker, or hopes that he is drawing on reality: hopes that the peculiar quality of this secondary world (if not all the details) are derived from Reality, or are flowing into it. If he indeed achieves a quality that can fairly be described by the dictionary definition: “inner consistency of reality,” it is difficult to conceive how this can be, if the work does not in some way partake of reality. The peculiar quality of the ”joy” in successful Fantasy can thus be explained as a sudden glimpse of the underlying reality or truth.
If your point is that much creative work is derivative and lacks this inner consistency of reality, in part because the work is inspired only by other works and the creators did not spend enough time attending to bringing their unique sense of the real into it, then I agree that yes, that is in line with my definition of derivative.
If your point is that consumption of fantasy renders us incapable of distinguishing reality from fantasy, or that first-hand experience is required to write, for example, a great war novel that rings true with veterans, and that knowledge acquired through other means (including fiction) can never suffice, even (and especially) when artfully infused with imagination and empathy, then I vehemently disagree.
Bonus points if you can respond without using the word "matrix." That'll also keep me from having to put my fist through my monitor.
If your point is that consumption of fantasy renders us incapable of distinguishing reality from fantasy, or that first-hand experience is required to write, for example, a great war novel that rings true with veterans, and that knowledge acquired through other means (including fiction) can never suffice, even (and especially) when artfully infused with imagination and empathy, then I vehemently disagree.
Curious. I think I am going through something like this right now. I mean, things I haven't directly experienced inspiring me to do experiences. I've got an idea for piece linking together Mass Effect's influence on me, filtered through Sagan and deGrasse Tyson, then applied to recent revelations in the news. It'll probably be up on my blog at some point. Would you care to read it?
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Just wanted to say thanks for that. I've been following this conversation with much interest, all the while having Tolkien and his view of fantasy on my mind. His work and his views, more than any other author mentioned, resonate most with me personally.
This thread rocks
by Avateur , Sunday, June 09, 2013, 18:40 (4196 days ago) @ Kermit
I just wanted to say, without contributing anything myself, that as someone who has edited plenty of stories and scripts that others have written (as well as having written/edited my own works meant for myself and for others), I am really loving this thread. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with anyone in particular, but it really has been fun reading all of this.
You're forgetting
by Leviathan , Hotel Zanzibar, Sunday, June 09, 2013, 19:29 (4196 days ago) @ Cody Miller
"People think dreams aren't real just because they aren't made of matter, of particles. Dreams are real. But they are made of viewpoints, of images, of memories and puns and lost hopes." -Sandman: Preludes and Nocturnes
Have you ever really been in love? With an actual human being, not with a dream; something you can't control and someone who has thoughts and feelings of her own? Your story could very very interesting, but it's not a story about real love. Your dream girl does what your mind wants / fears, not what she wants. Love is also about the other person. And so this is actually a fairly good example if you use your experience to make some kind of statement about true love or whatever, since that's only your mind's conception (or even its wish) of what love and heartbreak are. The matrix feels real while you're in it. (unless I misunderstand, and you dream of a woman who is or was real whom you really were in love with).
If there's one word out there that doesn't have a simple definition, it's love. It doesn't mean the same to everyone, and it can cover a huge range of emotions. If anything is one of your 'matrices' in my brain, it's our definitions and classifications. We let them define and limit our experiences too much instead of enslaving them to try and express them.
That's why I wouldn't wake up and say 'I fell in love with a dream'. No, I'd have to enslave a thousand words, or attempt to bend a novel to my will to try and express that unique love I felt. I'd have to rely on the sentences as well as the spaces between them. And maybe at the end of the day, one or two people might have understood and related, and maybe a few more might have taken some nugget from it and transformed it to benefit their own experiences.
But still, by my own definition of 'love', that emotion I had in this dream felt as valid a love as I have ever felt, so who are you to say it didn't? How could you ever get inside my heart, dissect it and prove you're right?
Even in real life, people kiss, but is the kiss real? Or is it a rehearsal of what you saw on TV or used to do in the past? At least then the girl is real even if the kiss isn't.
I've been saying it doesn't matter. If this 'fake' kiss is happening, it's as real as anything to me, it was just inspired from something different then what you think it ought to be. I sure as hell can't tell what act or thought of mine is original and what is borrowed, I don't see how anyone else could. 'Real' is just another word - a word we created to described a certain kind of experience. And I don't really care to waste my time anymore on drawing lines in the sand to say what meets some philosopher's criteria or doesn't.
Whether I'm a fish in a river or plugged into a simulation, it doesn't matter to me the arbitrary 'validity' that some other perspective applied to it - what matters is what I do with my experience and how I, subjectively, feel about it. It didn't matter that the girl was just from a dream to me, what matters is that I chose to break her heart. It doesn't matter if the kiss is from TV, what matters is if that the person chose to impart that kiss, felt it was the right thing to do in that situation, and that they were honest in their expression.
It's not about reality - it's about sincerity.
Exactly what I'm talking about. You haven't lived those lives. You've only lived your own. Do you watch COPS and think you've lived the life of a cop? Watch Mad Men and think you know what the 60s were really like? You're in the matrix…
So? I now know what the Mad Men's world is like. I know what Middle Earth is like. Just because they never happened in this life or are not historically accurate doesn't mean I can't experience them in a different way than my usual day to day and gleam something wonderful from them to affect the rest of my life.
I can go run up a hill outside or read about Aragorn running up a hill - one isn't defined as a 'reality' and one as a 'matrix' in my mind, it's just that they're two different things, both able to create meaningful and lasting impacts. I feel no need to place one higher than the other in some sort of hierarchy.
I think what I decide should influence my life, whether it's a real person or a dream, an adventure with friends or an engaging book, is up to me and my convictions, not some mighty critic or judge that goes around deciding what is worthy and 'true'.
(But I also think people can make mistakes and get addicted to things like television and games, running away from other problems, diving into into something that can hold all their attention, and never wanting to return. Sometimes it's intentional, sometimes it's not, and I think a friend that knows you might be able to pick up on the signs that a habit has become unhealthy like that and help you back to where you'd like to be. But it's usually not the quality or type of book that causes such escapism from my experience - it's the person who wants to escape and the shit they've been through. In that mindset, you'll find anything, no matter what's in front of you, be it Twilight or Crime and Punishment, as long as it successfully distracts you. But I think that's kind of a different beast than what you're talking about here.
Though if it is, we should both just shut up and read Breakfast of Champions.)
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You're forgetting
by Kermit , Raleigh, NC, Sunday, June 02, 2013, 13:15 (4203 days ago) @ Cody Miller
You're forgetting that nearly all of the creative works out there are products of the matrix. And like the people in Plato's cave who only see white when they look out the entrance, they can;t talk about what's outside without going there first. You're right that good art is hard to find, but I think it's rarer than you admit.
I've been tired of Matrix metaphors since late 1999, and I think this kind of talk diminishes who we are and what we're capable of. We could get into a philosophical debate about the nature of reality and experience, but I'm not sure that would be fruitful. We have always made up stories to entertain ourselves, but to assert that this is a problem because we can't distinguish the real either because we're over-saturated (Baudrillard) or we're ignorant (Jack Thompson) seems uncharitable, to say the least. I have some sympathy for the former view, but only to say that yes, you should take a walk and smell a flower now and then. I believe this is the core of our agreement.
This is why all great art has genesis in real experience.
Yes, but it isn't limited to that, which is the trap we fall into these days. Everyone is reduced to writing autobiographies.
This also makes me wonder why you even bother with video games at all if your standards are as high as you say, when they are the lowest of the low when it comes to exploring the human condition in a serious way. I know of 2 that provide original and meaningful insight. Both by the same guy. Both with lots of garbage mixed in. "But Cody, plenty of other games explore worthwhile themes!" I'll answer your objection with a question: "You think that's air you're breathing?"
I don't get your last comment, but to answer you, I own far more games than I've completed. They disappoint me regularly, but I do grade them on a curve because I think the form is relatively new. I'm fascinated by the form, despite this disappointment. You said you don't play as much. I probably have never played as much as you. Gaming is a somewhat guilty pleasure for me. When game developers aim high that does excite me, but we don't see that enough.
The reason why games fail should be obvious: most of the people making games never have any real experiences about the things they make games about. At best, they have the matrix to tell them.
You're being extremely condescending. I'm going to let Levi's answers stand on this one.
I now dub thee...
Shia LaCody
The irony
by RaichuKFM , Northeastern Ohio, Friday, June 07, 2013, 09:37 (4198 days ago) @ Cody Miller
Think it doesn't happen to you? You're wrong. You just don't even realize it since it's very difficult to figure out what's real and what's hyperreal. And here's the thing. You don't even know which of your pursuits you want because you want to pursue them purely on your own, or whether you want to pursue it because you have been taught to want it because of the Matrix. Think of how many things are desirable simply because it's pleasurable to be doing something that's seen as desirable.
I'm late to this, and I'm not gonna try to rekindle an argument, I just have something to say. I, on a fundamental level, see no real difference between doing something you want to because you were raised to think you wanted it, and something you "really" want to do. To me, they are both something you want to do. Because, you have a point that you can't tell which is which easily. But, what does that wind up mattering? I mean, enjoyment just comes down to chemicals that your mind turns into an emotion; and who you really are is influenced by your so-called "Matrix". Just because something comes from outside of you doesn't mean it isn't a facet of the "real" you, because otherwise our concepts of personality wouldn't reflect someone's actual personality. Most people get ideas placed into their heads their whole life, and they are obviously going to be changed by them. So whenever someone states that only some wants are "real" and not just constructs, I can't help but perceive it as arbitrary and false distinctions.
The other thing I want to say is that I don't see the issue with playing games to have fun. Even if they don't reflect anything good about the human condition, it is fun. I play video games and Dungeons & Dragons and board games and I don't think I've achieved anything out of them but enjoyment. And I see nothing wrong with that. I think enjoyment is a valid thing to strive for. I don't see how it distracts from or distorts the ability to have a real life adventure. If your adventures are in fiction and your drudgery is real life, that is fine. There is nothing inherently wrong in escapism.
It's depressing because the adventure can come to you. With a computer, it can all come to you virtually. You can read it, listen to it, or see it. But when everything is available everywhere, everywhere becomes nowhere.
So what do you do? I struggled with this for a while seeing as how I make movies. The bottom line, is that you need to do a bit of soul searching and try to wade your way out of the Matrix. Easier said than done, and I think in any modern society it's almost impossible to be fully out. But the first step becomes understanding and loving yourself, not characters and situations of fiction or documented reality.
First, how does ubiquity make something worse? I honestly don't get where you're coming from on the "everywhere becomes nowhere" thing. I also don't see this "Matrix" as inherently bad; everyone seems to have assumed it is, but I don't see why. It isn't an artificially constructed reality like its namesake, it is just... heck, it just seems like you're calling the influence of media "The Matrix". Also, I don't know about you, but I love myself and fiction simultaneously. I have no intention of leaving this thing, because I have no belief that it is warping who I am, or that it is bad.
Alright, I'm done. I really don't want to start up an argument, I just needed to say these things. Hopefully I actually conveyed my point, but I'm glad just to have written this.
Hopefully I actually conveyed my point, but I'm glad just to have written this.
I'm glad you wrote it, too.
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Hopefully I actually conveyed my point, but I'm glad just to have written this.
I'm glad you wrote it, too.
Indeed.
A questionably executed(but prime in concept) novella that I read once would be appropriate to mention here. But I'm not sure I want my kids to be exposed to that material yet. :)
~M
Good stuff, man. It makes me think things, like:
Are we more than our thoughts? Are we afraid we're not in control of our thoughts, motivations, selves? Are we really just biological constructions reacting with some highly evolved instinct - do I decide what to do before I've decided what to do - or is there something else? If we are, is that such a bad thing? I'm not convinced it isn't pretty amazing in its own right, all things considered.
The irony
by Cody Miller , Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, June 07, 2013, 18:41 (4198 days ago) @ RaichuKFM
I'm late to this, and I'm not gonna try to rekindle an argument, I just have something to say. I, on a fundamental level, see no real difference between doing something you want to because you were raised to think you wanted it, and something you "really" want to do. To me, they are both something you want to do. Because, you have a point that you can't tell which is which easily. But, what does that wind up mattering?
Because things you want because you have been taught or conditioned to want them may not be what's best for you, nor something you would actually want if you had never been conditioned or taught to want it in the first place.
A woman is submissive to her husband. You ask her why. She says she wishes to be, because making him happy makes her happy. She really wants it, and really does get pleasure from this. Is this okay? Does it end up mattering?
Just because something comes from outside of you doesn't mean it isn't a facet of the "real" you, because otherwise our concepts of personality wouldn't reflect someone's actual personality. Most people get ideas placed into their heads their whole life, and they are obviously going to be changed by them. So whenever someone states that only some wants are "real" and not just constructs, I can't help but perceive it as arbitrary and false distinctions.
I'm sorry, but I don't think I disputed that.
The other thing I want to say is that I don't see the issue with playing games to have fun.
I don't either! I do it all the time and love it!
First, how does ubiquity make something worse? I honestly don't get where you're coming from on the "everywhere becomes nowhere" thing.
To see a movie in 1941, you had to go to a theatre. It was a special place. Now you can watch a movie anywhere. So now everywhere has that property. But if everything has that property, there are no special places anymore. Everywhere becomes nowhere.
I also don't see this "Matrix" as inherently bad; everyone seems to have assumed it is, but I don't see why. It isn't an artificially constructed reality like its namesake, it is just... heck, it just seems like you're calling the influence of media "The Matrix".
Not just the media, but tradition, religion, values, political correctness, etc.
The irony
by RaichuKFM , Northeastern Ohio, Friday, June 07, 2013, 19:30 (4198 days ago) @ Cody Miller
Okay, thanks for the clarifications. And yes, you can have wants that aren't what's best for you result from what you have been taught. You can also get wants that aren't in your best interest naturally (Like eating unhealthy foods because they taste good). My main point was really that I don't think one can make a non-arbitrary distinction between things arising from outside influence and what is "really" you. As you said, you never really argued that, but your "Matrix" thing just implied it to me; sorry if I was putting words in your mouth. On the submissive thing, I don't see anything inherently wrong with that, seeing as the person genuinely wants it. Now, there are certainly negative things that can arise out of it, like abuse, but that is outside the scope of what I'm talking about. On the "everywhere becomes nowhere" thing, I see what you mean now. I'd argue ubiquity and convenience more or less make up for it, but that is coming down to personal preference. Sorry about my misinterpretations, I'm kinda bad with that; I'm glad this hasn't turned into blind argumentativeness despite it.