Wiping away the past

So it's finally happening. Remember years ago when I said that having a game be always online, with mandatory patches by the developers was troubling because we may lose our ability to enjoy old content?

What we lost yesterday:

Peter Dinklage
Blades of Crota
Pack of Wolves
The Main Menu Music
Old weapon balance
My completely insane Purifier VII

I don't know, I find it troublingly transient. I've always hoped that future releases would build upon, rather than wipe out the old. We could decline the patch and still sword fly in Halo 2 campaign or LAN. But if you ever want Black Hammer back, you are out of luck.

Lucas got shit when he tried to rewrite history with Star Wars… and yet Bungie gets a pass? At least with Star Wars you have the laserdiscs…

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So it's finally happening. Remember years ago when I said that having a game be always online, with mandatory patches by the developers was troubling because we may lose our ability to enjoy old content?

What we lost yesterday:

Peter Dinklage
Blades of Crota
Pack of Wolves
The Main Menu Music
Old weapon balance
My completely insane Purifier VII

I don't know, I find it troublingly transient. I've always hoped that future releases would build upon, rather than wipe out the old. We could decline the patch and still sword fly in Halo 2 campaign or LAN. But if you ever want Black Hammer back, you are out of luck.

Lucas got shit when he tried to rewrite history with Star Wars… and yet Bungie gets a pass? At least with Star Wars you have the laserdiscs…

Yes, we've lost some stuff... but we've gained a lot more. Part of what I enjoy about Destiny is that it is a continuously shifting, evolving entity. It is not the same game now that it was a year ago, and I like that. I might not prefer every single change that comes along, but I enjoy the whole process.

Lucas got shit for the special additions because the majority of the changes he added were for the worse. Destiny hasn't gone in that direction.

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Yes, we've lost some stuff... but we've gained a lot more.

But what if down the line you don't gain more? What if they remove or change something you really love?

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Lucas got shit for the special additions because the majority of the changes he added were for the worse. Destiny hasn't gone in that direction.

Quality is subjective though, and anyway we can't know the quality of all the new stuff for another few days. Also he was given grief not just because of the quality (and really pretty much everything in the special editions was fine IMHO) but because he stopped production of the old versions, limiting the options of people who preferred them.

People have wanted more since before this game came out, and they seem to be trying to deliver that, and they're being self-defeating by getting rid of old content. Getting rid of currencies and such, whatever, but stuff like the blades and the wolves, that's just bad to me even if the story goes against it. If they're really so concerned about story, in the future they shouldn't make these things tied to something you defeat. If it's about things getting too crowded, too bad, Destiny could use more crowding, much of it is very, very empty and a lot of people like the hectic nature of two (or more!) things going on at once.

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Also he was given grief not just because of the quality (and really pretty much everything in the special editions was fine IMHO) but because he stopped production of the old versions

This is it right there. He actually went further and actively prevented the preservation of the original trilogy, and exhibitions of it. I'm not opposed to Bungie continually updating their game, and doing things like weapon balances and the like. I'm not even opposed to them casting new actors. I have a problem with the old stuff being lost forever. If you think downloading my archive of Peter Dinklage's lines is the same as playing through the game with them in context, then you're going to be disappointed.

I am all about being forward thinking, moving ahead and thinking about the present and the future rather than the past. But the past is important to color our choices moving forward. I make movies, and to say that I've been influenced by old films - films made long before I was born, is an understatement. Films made when the idea of preserving films was ludicrous; they were seen as mere entertainment. But now we know film is art and preservation is very valuable. More than 90% of all films from the silent era are gone. The film "The Honor System", directed by Raoul Walsh, is by all accounts absolutely fantastic, is gone forever. All of it is dust. How many great works are lost, never to influence those who wish to move the art forward?

That's why what Lucas did was so offensive, but he doesn't have complete control over the copies that exist, and so the original trilogy will always exist despite the fact that he cut the negative to conform to the special edition. So not all is lost.

But it is lost with Destiny. There is absolutely zero way going forward to experience any version of the game other than what Bungie wants you to since you have to validate with the servers. I have the old ghost on a bluray, sitting in my system, but I can't use that. Imagine a world where George could have eliminated any possibility of ever watching the original trilogy again. That's the power Bungie has with Destiny, and they've used it. I'm shocked I'm the only one who is troubled.

Think of all the games that are part of the history of the art. How are you supposed to appreciate that by watching videos or listening to audio? Games are meant to be played. You might think the change of voice actor for the ghost is no big deal, but what if it goes further?

What's next?

Destiny and Bungie are certainly a piece of video game history. But it's a piece that can never be truly preserved for the future. Even if you personally don't want to play the old one, it's still a benefit to keeping art around. This trend in the temporary is troubling for me, given that I've learned a great deal studying art history!

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Think of all the games that are part of the history of the art. How are you supposed to appreciate that by watching videos or listening to audio? Games are meant to be played.

And some games are intended to be played with others and require a baseline number of people playing in order to replicate the experience as it was, which is what you seem intent on preserving. I'm sympathetic to your view, but some experiences can't be preserved. Elements of them can be captured and described, but the original experience is gone forever. Anyone can watch the last episode of M.A.S.H. at anytime on Netflix, but it won't be the same as watching it live with friends in the basement of a dorm room on 2/28/83.

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And some games are intended to be played with others and require a baseline number of people playing in order to replicate the experience as it was, which is what you seem intent on preserving. I'm sympathetic to your view, but some experiences can't be preserved.

You would be surprised. There are emulated pirate World of Warcraft servers. In fact, it should be easier for Destiny because you need at most only 6 people to replicate any given experience.

Elements of them can be captured and described, but the original experience is gone forever. Anyone can watch the last episode of M.A.S.H. at anytime on Netflix, but it won't be the same as watching it live with friends in the basement of a dorm room on 2/28/83.

That is of course due to the world changing, not the episode itself. And you can't stop the world from turning!

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And some games are intended to be played with others and require a baseline number of people playing in order to replicate the experience as it was, which is what you seem intent on preserving. I'm sympathetic to your view, but some experiences can't be preserved.

You would be surprised. There are emulated pirate World of Warcraft servers. In fact, it should be easier for Destiny because you need at most only 6 people to replicate any given experience.

I think you'd need more than six people to ensure that the serendipitous events happen as they often do with random players.

And you'd need 12 similarly skilled players to replicate multiplayer.

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And some games are intended to be played with others and require a baseline number of people playing in order to replicate the experience as it was, which is what you seem intent on preserving. I'm sympathetic to your view, but some experiences can't be preserved.

You would be surprised. There are emulated pirate World of Warcraft servers. In fact, it should be easier for Destiny because you need at most only 6 people to replicate any given experience.

I think you'd need more than six people to ensure that the serendipitous events happen as they often do with random players.

And you'd need 12 similarly skilled players to replicate multiplayer.

Yeah, and who would willingly play Destiny multiplayer? Those people won't exist.

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Lucas got shit for the special additions because the majority of the changes he added were for the worse. Destiny hasn't gone in that direction.

Quality is subjective though, and anyway we can't know the quality of all the new stuff for another few days. Also he was given grief not just because of the quality (and really pretty much everything in the special editions was fine IMHO) but because he stopped production of the old versions, limiting the options of people who preferred them.

Very good point.

People have wanted more since before this game came out, and they seem to be trying to deliver that, and they're being self-defeating by getting rid of old content. Getting rid of currencies and such, whatever, but stuff like the blades and the wolves, that's just bad to me even if the story goes against it. If they're really so concerned about story, in the future they shouldn't make these things tied to something you defeat. If it's about things getting too crowded, too bad, Destiny could use more crowding, much of it is very, very empty and a lot of people like the hectic nature of two (or more!) things going on at once.

I'm all for having more stuff going on in patrol. I wrote a post months ago brainstorming all the wacky stuff I'd love to see happening out in the open world. I guess I just don't think much about the Blades or Wolves going away because... well... I'm sick of them, really. They were cool the first few times, and lead to 1 or 2 amazing moments (where multiple events converge together), but I personally don't think these kinds of events add much to patrol mode long term. They're not special enough in my mind for me to care about them going away.

But that is of course just a personal feeling. I totally understand why some people would be sad to see these events go.

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So it's finally happening. Remember years ago when I said that having a game be always online, with mandatory patches by the developers was troubling because we may lose our ability to enjoy old content?

What we lost yesterday:

Peter Dinklage
Blades of Crota
Pack of Wolves
The Main Menu Music
Old weapon balance
My completely insane Purifier VII

I don't know, I find it troublingly transient. I've always hoped that future releases would build upon, rather than wipe out the old. We could decline the patch and still sword fly in Halo 2 campaign or LAN. But if you ever want Black Hammer back, you are out of luck.

Lucas got shit when he tried to rewrite history with Star Wars… and yet Bungie gets a pass? At least with Star Wars you have the laserdiscs…

While I do find it troubling in the sense that we have lost some history to the game, the community seems to do a great job of preserving parts of it. Just look at your dinklebot recordings, or the endless amounts of youtube destiny tributes for year one.

Instead of living in the past with these games, you are now encouraged to keep playing or risk missing out on things. Since this is supposed to be a 10-year franchise, I'm fine with old stuff "becoming legend". It's a part of the history of the game.

Pepperidge Farm remembers the Dinklebot and that amazing Black Hammer.

Lucas reworked the movies that had been around for 20(?) years or so already and with a massive expanded universe. Destiny is 1 year old with no expanded universe. Completely different in my book.

Do we know if there will be distinct versions of Destiny 1-5 or will it be a continually evolving world?

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So it's finally happening. Remember years ago when I said that having a game be always online, with mandatory patches by the developers was troubling because we may lose our ability to enjoy old content?

What we lost yesterday:

Peter Dinklage

Yes, but things like that happen. Its refreshing to hear something new.

Blades of Crota
Pack of Wolves

These are in keeping with the story. Blades of Crota have been gone for awhile. Who is to say that we wont get taken events come Sept 15th.

The Main Menu Music

I mean, this is relatively minor. I feel that even those of us who play the most, spent less than a few minutes a day listening to it.

Old weapon balance
My completely insane Purifier VII

These go hand in hand. The weapon changes were much needed. No you can enjoy the new ones with everyone else!

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Blades of Crota
Pack of Wolves

Are we sure those are gone forever? Detaching them from DLC-specific bounties/quests makes sense to me, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Blades/Wolves pop up again in the future on rare occasions.

And if they were permanently removed to free up memory for new events, I'm okay with that too.

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*Football goal posts in front of the end zone
*metal bats
*no blocks for sprinters
*Nascar vehicles that were modifications of lot vehicles

Times change. Even my Warhammer models come and go with the ebb and flow of new rules releases and the fantasy side just had a complete game replacement with the Age of Sigmar stuff.

Think about it for a moment. Would you still be playing Destiny if it were only the release content? No DLC, No updates. Everyone in Crucible using Fellwinter/Spear/Suros?

It used to be once the game hit the shelves you were stuck with it until a sequel, if there was one, and that sequel would be two to three years later. At best you could get some mods to fill the gap. Now we have planned DLC, frequent balance updates and performance improvements.

I'll take that over the past. I'll miss my Last Word and it's total domination. Hopefully there will be a new weapon to fill that void.

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Peter Dinklage

Yes, and for a pretty good reason, I feel. Making everything coherent with one voice actor was the right choice, I think. Does it suck that we'll never hear Dinklebot in game again? Yes, I think so. I'd love if there was an option for classic Dinklebot for Vanilla content. I get why they wouldn't waste time on it, though.

Blades of Crota
Pack of Wolves

People keep bringing this up, but it doesn't make sense to me. Although, in most contexts people are saying they're losing content they paid for, which isn't true. You got Blades and Wolf packs whether you spent money on DLC or not.

Yes, it sucks that they're gone a bit, but again, I get why they are. You can't just keep adding events to Patrol and leave them there. Eventually you get to the point where there would be a ridiculous amount going on, which, while it might be fun for the first few days, would get tiresome quickly, I think.

And as others have said, it makes sense lore-wise for them to be gone, and it's neat to see different events like that come and go.

The Main Menu Music

It's on the soundtrack. :P

Old weapon balance
My completely insane Purifier VII

This has been true for games for a long time. Many games change weapon balancing. Hell, Halo did this. Granted, it left them alone in the Campaign, and you could decline the updates altogether if you really wanted to, but this seems like a ridiculous thing to complain about. It needed to be done.

I do get where you're coming from. Just on principle, it does suck that no one can go back and have the original Destiny experience. But I don't think it's the worse thing ever, and Destiny is much better now than it was a year ago.

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Yes, it sucks that they're gone a bit, but again, I get why they are. You can't just keep adding events to Patrol and leave them there. Eventually you get to the point where there would be a ridiculous amount going on, which, while it might be fun for the first few days, would get tiresome quickly, I think.

not if they space things out

And as others have said, it makes sense lore-wise for them to be gone, and it's neat to see different events like that come and go.

They shouldn't have made it lore-dependent though, other patrol activities aren't. (That is, unless they always planned on removing them and wanted an out.) If it's a memory issue or something, I'd understand, but they haven't said anything like that.

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And as others have said, it makes sense lore-wise for them to be gone, and it's neat to see different events like that come and go.

They shouldn't have made it lore-dependent though, other patrol activities aren't. (That is, unless they always planned on removing them and wanted an out.) If it's a memory issue or something, I'd understand, but they haven't said anything like that.

Not making it lore-dependent would have defeated the purpose of it. The world changes based on what's happening in the universe, that is interesting and makes it feel like things are progressing. They are adding public events and new patrol activities in TTK to make patrol feel more varied, but not everything in the game world should stick around forever. I defeated Skolas (twice), why would the Wolves still be around? And with the argument of having them space it out instead, that limits the amount of space they can use for future events, such as the Taken showing up in patrols. If you want to argue that a couple of wolves or blades stay, that makes sense to me for a gameplay standpoint, but expecting all of them to stick around just doesn't make sense from a lore standpoint or a gameplay standpoint.

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And as others have said, it makes sense lore-wise for them to be gone, and it's neat to see different events like that come and go.

They shouldn't have made it lore-dependent though, other patrol activities aren't. (That is, unless they always planned on removing them and wanted an out.) If it's a memory issue or something, I'd understand, but they haven't said anything like that.

Not making it lore-dependent would have defeated the purpose of it. The world changes based on what's happening in the universe, that is interesting and makes it feel like things are progressing.

I should have gone with my original phrasing: they shouldn't have made it dependent on something we defeat. Tying it into the lore and changes in it is great. Removing the reason for it to exist and then removing the thing itself is very much not great.
They could have also made these things independent of the DLC story points and given them their own lore elements that are permanent or ongoing.

They are adding public events and new patrol activities in TTK to make patrol feel more varied, but not everything in the game world should stick around forever.

I disagree, I want everything added to be around forever. Is that practical? Maybe not, but Bungie has not once cited practicality that I'm aware of, so at the very least they should tell us that if it's an issue.

I defeated Skolas (twice), why would the Wolves still be around?

That's what I'm saying, they shouldn't make stuff dependent on that so they don't have a reason to remove it. It didn't make sense anyway because they were still around after you personally defeated him. Not only that but most Wolf groups had a named enemy that was killed many thousands of times and kept showing up. It's already stretching believability, having it continue to be around would be a drop in the bucket.

And with the argument of having them space it out instead, that limits the amount of space they can use for future events, such as the Taken showing up in patrols.

I meant space it out time-wise. For example you could have Blades every 30 minutes, Wolves every 30 minutes, Taken every 30 minutes, staggered 10 minutes apart from each other.

If you want to argue that a couple of wolves or blades stay, that makes sense to me for a gameplay standpoint, but expecting all of them to stick around just doesn't make sense from a lore standpoint or a gameplay standpoint.

It doesn't have to not make sense though.
Do you get what I'm saying?

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It doesn't have to not make sense though.
Do you get what I'm saying?

I do get what you're saying, I'm just not sure I agree personally. Nothing against what you want, but I like the fact that the stuff is tied to major story elements and that they go away when the story events ends. I do like the idea of one or two being around in random spots, but I don't like the idea of "Oh boy, new Taken events! Oh no I got Wolves, no biggy... and now Blades! EFF!" I'd rather get the new events immediately and have a dedicated few places I could experience Wolves and Blades in patrol.

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It doesn't have to not make sense though.
Do you get what I'm saying?

I do get what you're saying, I'm just not sure I agree personally. Nothing against what you want, but I like the fact that the stuff is tied to major story elements and that they go away when the story events ends. I do like the idea of one or two being around in random spots, but I don't like the idea of "Oh boy, new Taken events! Oh no I got Wolves, no biggy... and now Blades! EFF!" I'd rather get the new events immediately and have a dedicated few places I could experience Wolves and Blades in patrol.

A lot of people do like that idea, and that reality, as I'm sure you've seen in posts on here. Why should your preference be taken over theirs?

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He was not advocating for his wishes to be fulfilled over anyone else's. He was just stating his experience and his preference.

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He was not advocating for his wishes to be fulfilled over anyone else's. He was just stating his experience and his preference.

Exactly, plus you could also say there are a lot of people that agree with me, and a lot of people that don't care. Just stating which camp I fall in.

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So it's finally happening. Remember years ago when I said that having a game be always online, with mandatory patches by the developers was troubling because we may lose our ability to enjoy old content?

What we lost yesterday:

Peter Dinklage
Blades of Crota
Pack of Wolves
The Main Menu Music
Old weapon balance
My completely insane Purifier VII

I don't know, I find it troublingly transient. I've always hoped that future releases would build upon, rather than wipe out the old. We could decline the patch and still sword fly in Halo 2 campaign or LAN. But if you ever want Black Hammer back, you are out of luck.

Lucas got shit when he tried to rewrite history with Star Wars… and yet Bungie gets a pass? At least with Star Wars you have the laserdiscs…

1. You of all people asking why Bungie has gotten a pass is both laughable and infuriating.

2. Most of the things in your list are either things that would not exist without patches (Blades of Crota / Patrolling Wolves), or are fixes to problems widely acknowledged by the community (weapon balance / the lack of Ghost commentary in expansions).

On the flip side, for zero extra cost, a day one Destiny player will have received a mind bogging amount of significant fixes and improvements aimed at nearly every aspect of the game. They will also have gotten a decent amount new content (most notably, six or so new multiplayer maps), again for free. No ads or microtransactions in sight. And that trend does not appear to be stopping.

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Destiny was specifically created as a dynamic game that doesn't have a "end" and doesn't stay static, but changes over time.

If I go to the store and buy carrot cake, I can rant and rave that it doesn't have any chocolate in it. I can talk about how awesome chocolate is until I am blue in the face. Is chocolate good? Yes. Does carrot cake have chocolate in it? No. Does that make carrot cake inherently bad? No. Can I complain about this? Yes. But, if you want chocolate cake, buy chocolate cake!

Sorry for the corny analogy, but what you are describing is inherent to the type of game Destiny is. You don't have to quote yourself like some kind of prophet for "calling it." It was obvious from the beginning that this would happen and it was the game that we all bought.

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Have found some things better, some worse. So far it's a wash.

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So it's finally happening. Remember years ago when I said that having a game be always online, with mandatory patches by the developers was troubling because we may lose our ability to enjoy old content?

No, sorry, I don't remember every dire prediction you make Mr. Rasputin. :) But I thought this as well (well, without the 'troubling') part. I mean, I was under the impression things would change, from the nature of previous online games and what Bungie was saying, since... a year or more before I bought the game?

I realized what I was getting into. Just like how Halo 2's XBox Live multiplayer went away, I know one day Destiny will be unplayable, at least in its current form. It is a temporary, limited experience. (I mean everything in life could be described that way, but especially this.)

Do I want every game to be so dynamic and time-relevant or require internet? Heck no! But I am willing to try Destiny's different (at least for me) approach to a growing game. I think it's fun, especially in between other games.

I mean, am I losing a few things? Yes! But am I also gaining new dialogue, all the pre-TTK DLC maps, new missions and bounties? Yes! Are the older DLC losing value? Yes! In a similar way, is this gift card to Blockbuster not going to work anymore? Yes! But did I have fun renting terrible movies from there when it did work? Yes! Am I sad they couldn't get Peter Dinklage for more Ghosting? Yes! Am I happy the Ghost isn't going to remain silent forevermore because of that? Yes! Am I happy I won't randomly be being hearing Dinklage then North and back again? Yes! Am I running out of things to ask myself that result in 'yes' answers with exclamations marks? ...Yes!

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But you loved that SMG.

For all practical purposes, it was gone. Yeah, you could put it in a console now and LAN it up like you said, but you kept the patch, same as anyone. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's necessarily worth keeping if it's a detriment to the game.

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I'm sure some people here play through some of Bungie's games of the past for a little throwback every now and then.

But what if you couldn't play Halo, but instead were forced to play Halo Anniversary? You can't even play the Destiny campaign the same way that you used to.

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But what if you couldn't play Halo, but instead were forced to play Halo Anniversary? You can't even play the Destiny campaign the same way that you used to.

Honestly, fine. No skin off my nose. It feels weird inside, but I can count the number of times I've played Halo seriously on one hand since 2009. I've popped in for some easy mode campaign play, but other than that pretty much nothing.

Cody, you must remember that the always online nature of the game is what enables it to be so good. It keeps it balanced. It keeps new things happening. It keeps us all social and playing together.

You only talk about things we lost, not things we gained.

Imagine children. To forum version of Cody Miller, it's all downsides.

We lose:

Money
Freedom to go where we want and when
The ability to be reckless with our lives
Rated R movies in the living room
The ability to mow the lawn without the danger of mowing up a ninja turtle
Being able to keep guns in an unlocked safe
Freedom to swear constantly
Late nights out and no babysitter
Sunday mornings taking them to church when we've stopped bothering 10 years ago.

Of course, talk to a parent, and all of that is small potatoes and kids are the best thing ever, unless they've stepped on a LEGO block in the past 5 minutes.

For fuck's sake, dude. The game is great BECAUSE of its always online nature. There are always tradeoffs. Deal with it, and quit only bringing up the bad stuff. Get your head out of your ass and play the game, don't look for new stuff to bitch about.

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We lose:

Money

Freedom to go where we want and when

The ability to be reckless with our lives

Rated R movies in the living room

The ability to mow the lawn without the danger of mowing up a ninja turtle

Being able to keep guns in an unlocked safe

Freedom to swear constantly

Late nights out and no babysitter

Sunday mornings taking them to church when we've stopped bothering 10 years ago.
Of course, talk to a parent, and all of that is small potatoes and kids are the best thing ever, unless they've stepped on a LEGO block in the past 5 minutes.

This is incomparable, because having children is kind of a moral responsibility for the future of our species (at least how I see it). I feel like I have a duty to have a child or children and raise them to uphold, preserve spread cultural and ethical values that are a benefit to humanity, and morally right.

Destiny is just a video game.

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I'd be super glad to have a dad who sees me as a necessary evil to perpetuate the species. What a guy.

You're right, they're incomparable, but NOT because having children is moral and you can make logical arguments for it.

Also, my post was obviously largely in jest, but I did make a point, which you avoided. I'll say it even more explicitly. Please, shut up about stuff you don't like about the game when it is the very thing that makes the game what it is and also none of your comments are ever truly positive. You love this game. You know you do, we know you do, the American people know you love this game. You. Fucking love it. It's why you play. It's why when you don't play, you still play. It's why you talk about it constantly. You aren't fooling anyone for a second with the act.

And yet, all you say is negative stuff, and when it's not negative, it's a complisult. And Bungie, of course, is forcing YOU into an abusive relationship. Just shut up with that stuff, dude.

You're a great community member, obviously. I even like you as a person. But your contributions lately aren't enough to get rid of the boy who cried wolf stigma I associate with your posts. How can anybody ever take anything you say seriously when such a high percentage of it is this bullshit asshole character you put on?

I honestly have not read a post you have written as something that is an actual serious comment for months. Even it out a little bit, or we're all going to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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Also, my post was obviously largely in jest, but I did make a point, which you avoided. I'll say it even more explicitly. Please, shut up about stuff you don't like about the game when it is the very thing that makes the game what it is and also none of your comments are ever truly positive. You love this game.

I love the shooting. Does not require to be always online.
I love the PvP. Does not require it to be always online. Again, you can still play Halo 2 1.0 on a LAN.
I love the raids. Same deal there: they could be system link.

I like exactly zero of what is in the game that requires it to be always online. I don't care at all about running into random guardians in levels that were gutted to accommodate that, and a game designed to be repetitive so that people would actually be in areas all the time.

The always online portion has nearly entirely harmed the game in my opinion.

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Also, my post was obviously largely in jest, but I did make a point, which you avoided. I'll say it even more explicitly. Please, shut up about stuff you don't like about the game when it is the very thing that makes the game what it is and also none of your comments are ever truly positive. You love this game.

I love the shooting. Does not require to be always online.
I love the PvP. Does not require it to be always online. Again, you can still play Halo 2 1.0 on a LAN.
I love the raids. Same deal there: they could be system link.

How many 6-person LANs would you be doing per week?

You're just trolling now, seriously.

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How many 6-person LANs would you be doing per week?

You're just trolling now, seriously.

You wouldn't run raids weekly. Forget all that RNG loot stuff. You get your friends together on PSN, and play the raid, beat it once, maybe beat it again on hard and go on to play something else. Down the line when PSN doesn't support Destiny anymore, you could, if you were sufficiently motivated, do a LAN.

So no, you couldn't do weekly raids, but if the game were designed properly you wouldn't have to. You are stuck thinking about the game on its own always online, waste your time design philosophy. It could be more than that. It could have been greater. You are also confusing online play with always online. I love online play, because it's fun and convenient.

It's been like, 4 years since I've done a Halo LAN, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing to have as an option.

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How many 6-person LANs would you be doing per week?

You're just trolling now, seriously.

You wouldn't run raids weekly. Forget all that RNG loot stuff. You get your friends together on PSN, and play the raid, beat it once, maybe beat it again on hard and go on to play something else. Down the line when PSN doesn't support Destiny anymore, you could, if you were sufficiently motivated, do a LAN.

So no, you couldn't do weekly raids, but if the game were designed properly you wouldn't have to. You are stuck thinking about the game on its own always online, waste your time design philosophy. It could be more than that. It could have been greater. You are also confusing online play with always online. I love online play, because it's fun and convenient.

I am not playing the game despite those features, I am playing it BECAUSE of those features.

I like public patrol areas. I like the fact that unlike in Halo, online co-op in Destiny actually works. I like running into other people (but not too many) because it makes the game world feel different than it does in Halo or other games.

You're just saying if the game was different, you'd play it differently (and, apparently, less). Good for you!

You don't want a better game. You want a different game. You want so much for Destiny to be the game you would have made, rather than the one Bungie did make, that you see the game they did make as a pale shadow of the one you thought they should have made, instead of what it is.

I might also have liked the game you would have made, but I would have put it down already and be waiting 3 more years for the next installment. Instead I've gotten bits of new content every few months, and been able to play every week, if not almost every day, for a year.

It's not perfect, but I'm glad they made this game and not the one you wanted. And unlike the game you would have made-- mostly just Halo in a different skin-- this one will most likely continue to improve, instead of just becoming a different game through sequel releases.

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I like public patrol areas. I like the fact that unlike in Halo, online co-op in Destiny actually works. I like running into other people (but not too many) because it makes the game world feel different than it does in Halo or other games.

Last week I was reminded of exactly what I like about Destiny and the continuing potential it has in its unique design.

I decided to go Ghost hunting and was playing the last mission of House of Wolves. In the public area outside of the gravity lift (The Citadel?), a pack of Wolves were prowling. So between me and the doorway to the Juncture was a Fallen dropship and lots of yellow enemies. I jumped in and started fighting for the fun of it but that area is pretty tight and my back was soon against the wall and my health getting was getting low.

In jumped two other, random Guardians and they started pushing them back. It worked perfectly with my immersion in the game. As they held them off, I decided to push forward into the Citadel and leave them behind while I went after Skolas.

It's really just a little thing, but it's the kind of little thing that separates Destiny from any other game I've played.

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So no, you couldn't do weekly raids, but if the game were designed properly you wouldn't have to.

I play the raids because they are fun, same reason why I don't play prison of elders. There is no 'need' to do either, and you (or the character you are portraying) need to reevaluate your relationship with this video game.

You know, like you said you did before.

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I'd be super glad to have a dad who sees me as a necessary evil to perpetuate the species. What a guy.

You're twisting words a bit there.

You're right, they're incomparable, but NOT because having children is moral and you can make logical arguments for it.

Also, my post was obviously largely in jest, but I did make a point, which you avoided. I'll say it even more explicitly. Please, shut up about stuff you don't like about the game when it is the very thing that makes the game what it is and also none of your comments are ever truly positive. You love this game. You know you do, we know you do, the American people know you love this game. You. Fucking love it. It's why you play. It's why when you don't play, you still play. It's why you talk about it constantly. You aren't fooling anyone for a second with the act.

You've never loved something or someone and still wanted it to be better? If anything that makes the flaws more frustrating.

And yet, all you say is negative stuff, and when it's not negative, it's a complisult. And Bungie, of course, is forcing YOU into an abusive relationship. Just shut up with that stuff, dude.

You should know by now nothing anyone says is going to change the reactions or words there. If he's a broken record you're the wall echoing back at the record player (or something).

You're a great community member, obviously.

That's the thing, it's not that obvious. I would say he's not that great, now.

I even like you as a person. But your contributions lately aren't enough to get rid of the boy who cried wolf stigma I associate with your posts. How can anybody ever take anything you say seriously when such a high percentage of it is this bullshit asshole character you put on?

I honestly have not read a post you have written as something that is an actual serious comment for months. Even it out a little bit, or we're all going to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't agree with all of that but a lot of it is right I think-- and yet I feel compelled to back him up on this. To me that says we're in dire straits. Don't you think it says something that no one's directly disagreed except one person (you)? It's all "yes, but...". I think the "yes" part is the important part.

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I guess I'll stop taking you seriously then. [edit: sass levels lowered]

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I worry sometimes that when I'm joking, like on Marty's post, "let's see the video," people think I'm serious and that I'm dumb or something, or that I actually think Cody shouldn't have kids. I may play it too straight.

I also go between joking and being serious a lot in a single post. It's probably a lot harder to tell in text, especially if we don't talk much. I need to work on that.

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We lose:

Money

Freedom to go where we want and when

The ability to be reckless with our lives

Rated R movies in the living room

The ability to mow the lawn without the danger of mowing up a ninja turtle

Being able to keep guns in an unlocked safe

Freedom to swear constantly

Late nights out and no babysitter

Sunday mornings taking them to church when we've stopped bothering 10 years ago.
Of course, talk to a parent, and all of that is small potatoes and kids are the best thing ever, unless they've stepped on a LEGO block in the past 5 minutes.

This is incomparable, because having children is kind of a moral responsibility for the future of our species (at least how I see it). I feel like I have a duty to have a child or children and raise them to uphold, preserve spread cultural and ethical values that are a benefit to humanity, and morally right.

Destiny is just a video game.

This is a terrible reason to have kids. There are plenty of people irresponsibly having kids out there... you can sleep well knowing that they will have enough to cover your -1.

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This is incomparable, because having children is kind of a moral responsibility for the future of our species (at least how I see it). I feel like I have a duty to have a child or children and raise them to uphold, preserve spread cultural and ethical values that are a benefit to humanity, and morally right.

If having kids is a moral responsibility, then don't get married because you might not be able to have kids with your wife. In that case you'll just have to get divorced or decide that you like being an immoral person.

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I'm sure some people here play through some of Bungie's games of the past for a little throwback every now and then.

But what if you couldn't play Halo, but instead were forced to play Halo Anniversary? You can't even play the Destiny campaign the same way that you used to.

"The same way you used to" is what way, exactly? Are you talking about October or December, February or April Destiny? Destiny has been changing all along.

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Most of the things we lost sucked balls and you were one of the ones to point that out. "weapon balance?" Really? PvP in the Thorncible was not fun or interesting. Sure, you may have to relearn some weapon skills and you're not the expert today that you were yesterday but heck - even the old guns are new again!

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Most of the things we lost sucked balls and you were one of the ones to point that out. "weapon balance?" Really? PvP in the Thorncible was not fun or interesting. Sure, you may have to relearn some weapon skills and you're not the expert today that you were yesterday but heck - even the old guns are new again!

My point is that art should be able to be preserved.

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My point is that art should be able to be preserved.

There is some art that is meant to be temporary - like performance pieces and installations, earthworks/land art, and more. There are some printmaking techniques that 'use up' the original plates to the point where they can never be used to create the image again.

The only way to preserve those kinds of art is to document them - like you did with Dinklage's voice.

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My point is that art should be able to be preserved.

There is some art that is meant to be temporary - like performance pieces and installations, earthworks/land art, and more. There are some printmaking techniques that 'use up' the original plates to the point where they can never be used to create the image again.

The only way to preserve those kinds of art is to document them - like you did with Dinklage's voice.

It's interesting you say that, because I know that is a large part of the artist's intent in those pieces - for them to be temporary. I personally think that is misguided, because everyone's individual experience with art already is temporary. How many times are you going to go see David? Probably not often enough for it to cease being special, even though he's a hunk or marble that will stand for centuries later.

So you're not really gaining a whole lot in terms of the people who do see it, but you lose the ability for others to have their experience down the road. If you really think your expression is valuable, it should stand in time to be heard.

Some arts are temporary by their very nature such as theatre or live music. You were either there when Prince got booed off the stage opening for the Stones at Madison square garden, or you weren't. But video games are decidedly not temporary, or at least don't have to be.

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My point is that art should be able to be preserved.

There is some art that is meant to be temporary - like performance pieces and installations, earthworks/land art, and more. There are some printmaking techniques that 'use up' the original plates to the point where they can never be used to create the image again.

The only way to preserve those kinds of art is to document them - like you did with Dinklage's voice.

It's interesting you say that, because I know that is a large part of the artist's intent in those pieces - for them to be temporary. I personally think that is misguided, because everyone's individual experience with art already is temporary. How many times are you going to go see David? Probably not often enough for it to cease being special, even though he's a hunk or marble that will stand for centuries later.

Oh yes, most of them are definitely intended to be that way, and by doing so, they've purposefully added another element to their art. By telling your audience it's not going to last, as opposed to say, suggesting the 'security' of a long-lasting David, you're making a statement, whether or not the audience experiences that actual temporary quality. You may not be interested in that statement, but hey, everything's on the table in art.

Some arts are temporary by their very nature such as theatre or live music. You were either there when Prince got booed off the stage opening for the Stones at Madison square garden, or you weren't. But video games are decidedly not temporary, or at least don't have to be.

Right, but Destiny has chosen to be temporary. They've been pretty much declaring that since the beginning. It may not be what you want it to be, but that's what Destiny is. It's going to continue to be that way.

In other, stranger, more metaphorical words, I can certainly understand criticizing and improving upon a recliner - looking around for the mechanism and finding ways for it to be more comfortable, etc. But I don't understand criticizing a recliner for not being a bed, heh. :)

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Right, but Destiny has chosen to be temporary. They've been pretty much declaring that since the beginning. It may not be what you want it to be, but that's what Destiny is. It's going to continue to be that way.

But art shapes culture. Temporary art means temporary culture.

I'm convinced people are selfish and don't care about the future anymore. I was in a conversation the other day, where the person mentioned that nothing was worth dying for. I said "Really? Nothing?" and they affirmed that. To me that is completely astounding that anyone would consider their own (temporary) existence to be literally the most important thing in the world. What about the ideas and institutions of the world that stood before and will stand after you? Ideas and institutions that improve and protect the lives of billions? That let you live the wonderful life you have now, and will help far more people in the future?

And guess what, art can directly affect these ideas and institutions by contributing to the culture! No wonder people don't care if their art is disposable!

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Right, but Destiny has chosen to be temporary. They've been pretty much declaring that since the beginning. It may not be what you want it to be, but that's what Destiny is. It's going to continue to be that way.

But art shapes culture. Temporary art means temporary culture.

I'm convinced people are selfish and don't care about the future anymore. I was in a conversation the other day, where the person mentioned that nothing was worth dying for. I said "Really? Nothing?" and they affirmed that. To me that is completely astounding that anyone would consider their own (temporary) existence to be literally the most important thing in the world. What about the ideas and institutions of the world that stood before and will stand after you? Ideas and institutions that improve and protect the lives of billions? That let you live the wonderful life you have now, and will help far more people in the future?

And guess what, art can directly affect these ideas and institutions by contributing to the culture! No wonder people don't care if their art is disposable!

Uh, you jumped some lily pads here on me. Because Destiny is always-online and will likely not last forever... everyone in the future is going to believe nothing is worth dying for?

Culture has always been temporary. It's fluid. Because you know, time exists and all that. The culture I live in now feels completely different than the one I grew up in, and that one felt completely different than the one my father grew up in. There's stuff I experienced in the 90's no kid will experience today. There's stuff in the 1800's nobody now will ever experience. It's gone!

Even the stuff we DO have from the past no longer has the past around it, that is to say its context. We experience David completely different than Michelangelo did. We might be able to put ourselves somewhere near that mindset with education and imagination but never completely and we'll never know for sure how close.

I don't want every game to be like Destiny. I don't want every piece of art to be intentionally temporary. But I'm fine if some are; there's unique experiences to be found in them - things I can enjoy and learn about that only that context can provide. And it also makes me happy somebody like you recorded all of Dinklage's audio, so we can still remember it and others in the future might be able to imagine it in the right context if they care to.

EDIT - Also interesting to note: Because of computers and the internet, we are probably preserving more about the present for the future than EVER before. There's a Norm McDonald joke that says something like "My dad had one photo of my grandpa. When my kid asks me for a photo, I can say 'here's a photo of everything I ever did, every day.'" Except it's Norm... so it's funny.

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Culture has always been temporary. It's fluid. Because you know, time exists and all that. The culture I live in now feels completely different than the one I grew up in, and that one felt completely different than the one my father grew up in.

As it should. We should be moving forward. But a lot of what got us to where we are now is preserved, so future generations can learn why things are the way they are. You need a record of your journey, or you forget why you are traveling. Like the Montagues and Capulets who don't remember what started the feud, and only fight because that's the way it's always been.

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Culture has always been temporary. It's fluid. Because you know, time exists and all that. The culture I live in now feels completely different than the one I grew up in, and that one felt completely different than the one my father grew up in.

As it should. We should be moving forward. But a lot of what got us to where we are now is preserved, so future generations can learn why things are the way they are. You need a record of your journey, or you forget why you are traveling. Like the Montagues and Capulets who don't remember what started the feud, and only fight because that's the way it's always been.

Sure, I don't disagree with that...that's why there was more to my post. About context and all that...

Anyway, I don't think there's any doubt we are preserving more about today than EVER in the history of the world thanks to technology. Hell, we're probably preserving too much. The future is going to be burdened with all this nostalgic shit in my garage instead of enjoying their own life. Now that's selfish. :)

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Just because you don't have access to Destiny 1.0 doesn't mean nobody does. It probably, almost certainly, exists within Bungie's walls. Kinda like original versions of Star Wars are only immediately watchable by a select few. And we aren't likely to forget where we came from in terms of Destiny since collectively we have terabytes upon terabytes of videos, play throughs, time lapses, podcasts, previews, reviews, postmortems, forum posts, and Wikipedia edits.

Sure it would be a neat novelty if some game museum had playable versions of Destiny 1.0, 1.1, 1.2...etc available to the public. Maybe that will even happen one day. But that Destiny has changed, evolved, and by and large improved is a much greater strength than it is any kind of weakness.

Like Leviathan said, your ideas and philosophy are interesting and perhaps even correct in the abstract, but are impractical for even such solid things like historical stone statues, much less gaming software that was made to be and meant to be ever changing.

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Why is this so hard to understand?

Just because you don't have access to Destiny 1.0 doesn't mean nobody does. It probably, almost certainly, exists within Bungie's walls. Kinda like original versions of Star Wars are only immediately watchable by a select few.

Did you miss the part where he said it's bad precisely because it's in the same situation as Star Wars?

And we aren't likely to forget where we came from in terms of Destiny since collectively we have terabytes upon terabytes of videos, play throughs, time lapses, podcasts, previews, reviews, postmortems, forum posts, and Wikipedia edits.

That's not the point.

Sure it would be a neat novelty if some game museum had playable versions of Destiny 1.0, 1.1, 1.2...etc available to the public.

It shouldn't have to be a novelty or a museum piece, it's only been a year.

Maybe that will even happen one day. But that Destiny has changed, evolved, and by and large improved is a much greater strength than it is any kind of weakness.

That, again, is not the point.

Like Leviathan said, your ideas and philosophy are interesting and perhaps even correct in the abstract, but are impractical for even such solid things like historical stone statues, much less gaming software that was made to be and meant to be ever changing.

Bungie said from early on that Destiny would be a changing thing, this is true, but they didn't say they would permanently remove content-- the first time I'm aware of that coming up is the lead-up to House of Wolves when they said the blades of Crota were being removed.

That brings me to what the point actually is. The point is that a work of art, and all versions or editions of it that are made public, should be preserved and made available forever. This is an ideal, and it's one that often doesn't play nice with practicality, but that doesn't mean people won't or shouldn't keep pursuing it.

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That brings me to what the point actually is. The point is that a work of art, and all versions or editions of it that are made public, should be preserved and made available forever. This is an ideal, and it's one that often doesn't play nice with practicality, but that doesn't mean people won't or shouldn't keep pursuing it.

I would also love to see great things preserved as they were, but I don't think that ideal should ever become a restriction to the artist.

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That brings me to what the point actually is. The point is that a work of art, and all versions or editions of it that are made public, should be preserved and made available forever. This is an ideal, and it's one that often doesn't play nice with practicality, but that doesn't mean people won't or shouldn't keep pursuing it.

I would also love to see great things preserved as they were, but I don't think that ideal should ever become a restriction to the artist.

I didn't say it should.
Do you really think it's a matter of their vision, though? Do you really think their goal is that lofty?
I think it's practicality, and possibly a lack of forethought ("How are we going to have story justification/console memory/server resources/whatever to continue these events indefinitely?"), and, maybe, an incentive to play on a regular basis so you don't miss things-- admittedly even if it is that's not messing with people's minds on the level of gambling for legendaries, but it's not what I'd call an artistic vision.

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That brings me to what the point actually is. The point is that a work of art, and all versions or editions of it that are made public, should be preserved and made available forever. This is an ideal, and it's one that often doesn't play nice with practicality, but that doesn't mean people won't or shouldn't keep pursuing it.

I would also love to see great things preserved as they were, but I don't think that ideal should ever become a restriction to the artist.

I didn't say it should.
Do you really think it's a matter of their vision, though? Do you really think their goal is that lofty?
I think it's practicality, and possibly a lack of forethought, and, maybe, an incentive to play on a regular basis so you don't miss things-- admittedly even if it is that's not messing with people's minds on the level of gambling for legendaries, but it's not what I'd call an artistic vision.

I think yes, it is a matter of the vision of Destiny. Overcoming practical challenges, like a voice actor you couldn't get back or limited space/memory for Blades and Wolves, is how that vision remains reality.

If I ever want to make some art or do something I would enjoy, and someone told me I shouldn't do that because it cant be preserved for the future, I would not listen to them. I think if I worry too much about making things last I will miss the present. :)

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That brings me to what the point actually is. The point is that a work of art, and all versions or editions of it that are made public, should be preserved and made available forever. This is an ideal, and it's one that often doesn't play nice with practicality, but that doesn't mean people won't or shouldn't keep pursuing it.

I would also love to see great things preserved as they were, but I don't think that ideal should ever become a restriction to the artist.

I didn't say it should.
Do you really think it's a matter of their vision, though? Do you really think their goal is that lofty?
I think it's practicality, and possibly a lack of forethought, and, maybe, an incentive to play on a regular basis so you don't miss things-- admittedly even if it is that's not messing with people's minds on the level of gambling for legendaries, but it's not what I'd call an artistic vision.

I think yes, it is a matter of the vision of Destiny. Overcoming practical challenges, like a voice actor you couldn't get back or limited space/memory for Blades and Wolves, is how that vision remains reality.

If I ever want to make some art or do something I would enjoy, and someone told me I shouldn't do that because it cant be preserved for the future, I would not listen to them. I think if I worry too much about making things last I will miss the present. :)

What if you put your energies into creating something really amazing, which made it into a larger work, then after that work was released, retroactively removed. Your contribution erased by someone else. Would you not feel upset? Betrayed?

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That brings me to what the point actually is. The point is that a work of art, and all versions or editions of it that are made public, should be preserved and made available forever. This is an ideal, and it's one that often doesn't play nice with practicality, but that doesn't mean people won't or shouldn't keep pursuing it.

I would also love to see great things preserved as they were, but I don't think that ideal should ever become a restriction to the artist.

I didn't say it should.
Do you really think it's a matter of their vision, though? Do you really think their goal is that lofty?
I think it's practicality, and possibly a lack of forethought, and, maybe, an incentive to play on a regular basis so you don't miss things-- admittedly even if it is that's not messing with people's minds on the level of gambling for legendaries, but it's not what I'd call an artistic vision.

I think yes, it is a matter of the vision of Destiny. Overcoming practical challenges, like a voice actor you couldn't get back or limited space/memory for Blades and Wolves, is how that vision remains reality.

If I ever want to make some art or do something I would enjoy, and someone told me I shouldn't do that because it cant be preserved for the future, I would not listen to them. I think if I worry too much about making things last I will miss the present. :)

What if you put your energies into creating something really amazing, which made it into a larger work, then after that work was released, retroactively removed. Your contribution erased by someone else. Would you not feel upset? Betrayed?

I've had illustrations rejected, removed from different editions, and other similar situations. There have been times where it bummed me out and other times where it did not. Sometimes I understood why it happened, sometimes I didn't, but I knew going into it that it might happen because I was familiar with the work and my contract. Things flux and change and I am not in control as a contract artist.

And when I am in control, like my own comic, I have gone back and changed stuff previously released. If I ever release a hardcover there will likely be even more tweaks to fix mistakes hitherto unseen or optimize it for the different format.

In a closer approximation, if I was contracted to do a comic, and after finishing the first issue, chose not to or was unable to return for the rest of the series, I would understand why an art director might go back and get the ongoing artist to redo the beginning.

The nature of Destiny does not allow for preservation easily. Like live theater, sometimes a new actor has to sub in for the original castee. The returning audience member doesn't get to relive the same experience. A recording of the performance will also never capture what it was really like to be there. The show must go on until the tour is done. You can critique it, but you cant make it a static film, because it doesn't want to be one.

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The nature of Destiny does not allow for preservation easily.

What can you back that up with?

Like live theater, sometimes a new actor has to sub in for the original castee.

This isn't that much like that situation.
They could have had the new voice for the new lines and the old voice for the old ones and put in some in-universe justification. They could have had a toggle for the old lines (IDK how easy that would be but I guarantee it's possible). They could have hired better in the first place, and gotten someone who's a professional voice actor and/or not so famous and busy it would take a large amount of scheduling and money to get more lines.
Depending on the resources they were working with, they could've had the recurring events take place less frequently (or even on the same schedule because chaos is fun) and kept them where they were. They could've made them tie to the story differently so it made sense for them to continue, or invented new justification. They could've ignored the story concerns since Weksis the Meek coming back to life 50,000 times already stretches believability. (They could've at the very least not tied story to things and then removed those things, I mean fucking hell, people complain there's not enough story and you put in a bunch more in that's relegated to another medium and then remove the ability to even get that?)
What's this about menu music? Is it just gone? I'm sure they could've not removed it.
There are so many things they could have done to preserve things more both initially and recently, and they didn't, and that's what upsets and worries me. The kicker is that if it was out on PC pretty much all of this would not concern me because people would have the old versions, the old code and data, and ways of keeping it and still experiencing it, but because it's only on locked-down consoles we only get what Bungie gives us, and if they take something away it's up to them or people who are more technically inclined than even most PC game mod people to keep it and make it playable.

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The nature of Destiny does not allow for preservation easily.

What can you back that up with?

It doesn't need back up. The game was conceived as a shared living (read evolving) world, and that means things change, and change involves new things being added and old things going away.

Like live theater, sometimes a new actor has to sub in for the original castee.

This isn't that much like that situation.
They could have had the new voice for the new lines and the old voice for the old ones and put in some in-universe justification. They could have had a toggle for the old lines (IDK how easy that would be but I guarantee it's possible). They could have hired better in the first place, and gotten someone who's a professional voice actor and/or not so famous and busy it would take a large amount of scheduling and money to get more lines.

They could have but they didn't and they have to continue developing the game.

Depending on the resources they were working with, they could've had the recurring events take place less frequently (or even on the same schedule because chaos is fun) and kept them where they were. They could've made them tie to the story differently so it made sense for them to continue, or invented new justification. They could've ignored the story concerns since Weksis the Meek coming back to life 50,000 times already stretches believability.
What's this about menu music? Is it just gone? I'm sure they could've not removed it.
There are so many things they could have done to preserve things more both initially and recently, and they didn't, and that's what upsets and worries me. The kicker is that if it was out on PC pretty much all of this would not concern me because people would have the old versions, the old code and data, and ways of keeping it and still experiencing it, but because it's only on locked-down consoles we only get what Bungie gives us, and if they take something away it's up to them or people who are more technically inclined than even most PC game mod people to keep it and make it playable.

No, because Destiny is a shared world with public spaces. If we're both there at the same time, my world can't be different than yours. Even if you hack something that keeps it like it was, you still need a playerbase with you. The restriction isn't the locked console--the restriction is that it's not only your world.

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The nature of Destiny does not allow for preservation easily.

What can you back that up with?

It doesn't need back up. The game was conceived as a shared living (read evolving) world, and that means things change, and change involves new things being added and old things going away.

That doesn't preclude being able to experience it minus some or all changes. My question was to the ability to do that, how easy it is in practical terms to preserve things, and how he knows how easy it is.

Like live theater, sometimes a new actor has to sub in for the original castee.

This isn't that much like that situation.
They could have had the new voice for the new lines and the old voice for the old ones and put in some in-universe justification. They could have had a toggle for the old lines (IDK how easy that would be but I guarantee it's possible). They could have hired better in the first place, and gotten someone who's a professional voice actor and/or not so famous and busy it would take a large amount of scheduling and money to get more lines.

They could have but they didn't and they have to continue developing the game.

Did you miss the part where I said it bothers me they didn't do things they could've done, in design and more recently, to keep things available?

Depending on the resources they were working with, they could've had the recurring events take place less frequently (or even on the same schedule because chaos is fun) and kept them where they were. They could've made them tie to the story differently so it made sense for them to continue, or invented new justification. They could've ignored the story concerns since Weksis the Meek coming back to life 50,000 times already stretches believability.
What's this about menu music? Is it just gone? I'm sure they could've not removed it.
There are so many things they could have done to preserve things more both initially and recently, and they didn't, and that's what upsets and worries me. The kicker is that if it was out on PC pretty much all of this would not concern me because people would have the old versions, the old code and data, and ways of keeping it and still experiencing it, but because it's only on locked-down consoles we only get what Bungie gives us, and if they take something away it's up to them or people who are more technically inclined than even most PC game mod people to keep it and make it playable.

No, because Destiny is a shared world with public spaces. If we're both there at the same time, my world can't be different than yours. Even if you hack something that keeps it like it was, you still need a playerbase with you. The restriction isn't the locked console--the restriction is that it's not only your world.

As other people have mentioned, people run unofficial WoW servers, that may have differences from the current official setup, and I've seen elsewhere that a lot of people play on them.
I also contest the idea that random people are important to how the game feels. I've never once seen anyone call it more than just a little thing, a touch, a nice touch but still just a touch. I'd much rather have bigger, more intricate worlds, the ability to play by myself and off-line, and whatever else they sacrificed so someone can help with a public event I don't need help with and point to a chest I didn't need.
I typed a bunch more on this but it veers around, so I'll put it elsewhere... edit: or not, since I copied something else to the clipboard ~_~

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The nature of Destiny does not allow for preservation easily.

What can you back that up with?

It doesn't need back up. The game was conceived as a shared living (read evolving) world, and that means things change, and change involves new things being added and old things going away.

That doesn't preclude being able to experience it minus some or all changes. My question was to the ability to do that, how easy it is in practical terms to preserve things, and how he knows how easy it is.

Like live theater, sometimes a new actor has to sub in for the original castee.

This isn't that much like that situation.
They could have had the new voice for the new lines and the old voice for the old ones and put in some in-universe justification. They could have had a toggle for the old lines (IDK how easy that would be but I guarantee it's possible). They could have hired better in the first place, and gotten someone who's a professional voice actor and/or not so famous and busy it would take a large amount of scheduling and money to get more lines.

They could have but they didn't and they have to continue developing the game.

Did you miss the part where I said it bothers me they didn't do things they could've done, in design and more recently, to keep things available?

This eventuality could be foreseen by listening to how they described the game they were building early on. Guess I don't get the outcry or surprise now.

Depending on the resources they were working with, they could've had the recurring events take place less frequently (or even on the same schedule because chaos is fun) and kept them where they were. They could've made them tie to the story differently so it made sense for them to continue, or invented new justification. They could've ignored the story concerns since Weksis the Meek coming back to life 50,000 times already stretches believability.
What's this about menu music? Is it just gone? I'm sure they could've not removed it.
There are so many things they could have done to preserve things more both initially and recently, and they didn't, and that's what upsets and worries me. The kicker is that if it was out on PC pretty much all of this would not concern me because people would have the old versions, the old code and data, and ways of keeping it and still experiencing it, but because it's only on locked-down consoles we only get what Bungie gives us, and if they take something away it's up to them or people who are more technically inclined than even most PC game mod people to keep it and make it playable.

No, because Destiny is a shared world with public spaces. If we're both there at the same time, my world can't be different than yours. Even if you hack something that keeps it like it was, you still need a playerbase with you. The restriction isn't the locked console--the restriction is that it's not only your world.

As other people have mentioned, people run unofficial WoW servers, that may have differences from the current official setup, and I've seen elsewhere that a lot of people play on them.
I also contest the idea that random people are important to how the game feels. I've never once seen anyone call it more than just a little thing, a touch, a nice touch but still just a touch. I'd much rather have bigger, more intricate worlds, the ability to play by myself and off-line, and whatever else they sacrificed so someone can help with a public event I don't need help with and point to a chest I didn't need.

Maybe it's not important to you, but to me it's integral to what Destiny is, which is why this conversation is weird. You want preservation, but you want a different game preserved, or only the parts you care about. You don't want anything taken away--except for what you don't think is important.

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As other people have mentioned, people run unofficial WoW servers, that may have differences from the current official setup, and I've seen elsewhere that a lot of people play on them.
I also contest the idea that random people are important to how the game feels. I've never once seen anyone call it more than just a little thing, a touch, a nice touch but still just a touch. I'd much rather have bigger, more intricate worlds, the ability to play by myself and off-line, and whatever else they sacrificed so someone can help with a public event I don't need help with and point to a chest I didn't need.

Maybe it's not important to you, but to me it's integral to what Destiny is, which is why this conversation is weird. You want preservation, but you want a different game preserved, or only the parts you care about. You don't want anything taken away--except for what you don't think is important.

That's not true. I'm not suggesting the player base be taken away, or be allowed to be taken away. If you look I said older versions could have more players than you'd expect, if they were available. I contested the idea that that was an important element because, well, I don't think it's that important as it stands, and because I think it could have been a majorly supportive element, but people like you can't handle randoms talking (even though you said recently that people have or should have control over their own emotions, not sure how that works), so we're left with a "social" game that's not social (though they slyly stopped calling it "social" around E3 2014, hopefully because they realized it wasn't), where everything public and open could be done by bots with random names and gear and no one would know the difference, so they might as well have cut out the random people entirely and made the substantive parts of the game better. I brought it up because it's really frustrating that neither of these things happened-- we didn't a truly social game, and we didn't get a bigger, more complex, more stable game that you can play solo and off-line.

I have a confession to make. When they announced the socialness and the random players and the Tower, I thought this was going to be one of my favorite games ever because it would have people-watching, but really, it would be people-listening. That's where people-watching comes into its own and it's basically all you would be able to in Destiny. I love love love being in a crowd and hearing all the conversations and listening to this one or that one. Then I found out there was no automatic voice anywhere in the game, and that took a lot out of it for me. So I guess you can put me in a box with the other people disappointed Destiny wasn't what they expected, even though they based their expectations on something other than direct evidence. I don't think about it any more unless someone brings up how great it is having other players around-- because they're not even background noise to me, they're like the moth in the room that once in a blue moon lands somewhere slightly interesting.

Maybe you can explain it to me-- why is having someone help with a public event and then leave (which is at least 90% of the interaction I get) integral to what Destiny is?

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I've had illustrations rejected, removed from different editions, and other similar situations. There have been times where it bummed me out and other times where it did not. Sometimes I understood why it happened, sometimes I didn't, but I knew going into it that it might happen because I was familiar with the work and my contract. Things flux and change and I am not in control as a contract artist.

Having your illustrations removed from subsequent editions is not the same as having them retroactively removed from existing editions. If your illustrations are removed, the original editions are still out there. When an online game updates, the original is overwritten and gone forever.

And as Marty said, no amount of videos or audio archives can replace the actual experience.

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I've had illustrations rejected, removed from different editions, and other similar situations. There have been times where it bummed me out and other times where it did not. Sometimes I understood why it happened, sometimes I didn't, but I knew going into it that it might happen because I was familiar with the work and my contract. Things flux and change and I am not in control as a contract artist.

Having your illustrations removed from subsequent editions is not the same as having them retroactively removed from existing editions. If your illustrations are removed, the original editions are still out there. When an online game updates, the original is overwritten and gone forever.

Yep, I understand that, and that's why after answering you question, I switched to better approximations for the rest of the post. The play is the thing.

And as Marty said, no amount of videos or audio archives can replace the actual experience.

Right. And as his statement also reveals - the only way that one can try and relieve the experience of good food - a very temporary form of entertainment - is for the chef to never change his recipe. The restaurant can never shut down.

But Destiny changes their recipe. They ARE online. It is a changing, temporary experience. They have said this from the start. They have chosen this nature. If you don't like it, hey - that's fine. But this is the boat we're on now. You can try and help repair it as we go, or you can jump overboard, but when you continually lament that we should have taken a car, I'll remind you, "We're on a boat!" :)

This thread is starting to go in circles, heh. Your comments seem only to target specific sentences of mine instead of all of it that actually explains my point. I think any future comments I make will just keep pointing back to things I've already said, like here. It's sort of a deja vu since I've done this dance with you before. So I'm going to just let my comments stand as they are. :)

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Yep, I understand that, and that's why after answering you question, I switched to better approximations for the rest of the post. The play is the thing.

I heard you. I used the example of the play as well, but there is a reason that for narrative works, film has almost entirely replaced the stage. It is also not a coincidence that film is more permanent. It's definitely not a coincidence that the things film does best are idea driven, and the things it doesn't do so well are performance driven.

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I would also love to see great things preserved as they were, but I don't think that ideal should ever become a restriction to the artist.

I didn't say it should.
Do you really think it's a matter of their vision, though? Do you really think their goal is that lofty?
I think it's practicality, and possibly a lack of forethought, and, maybe, an incentive to play on a regular basis so you don't miss things-- admittedly even if it is that's not messing with people's minds on the level of gambling for legendaries, but it's not what I'd call an artistic vision.

I think yes, it is a matter of the vision of Destiny. Overcoming practical challenges, like a voice actor you couldn't get back or limited space/memory for Blades and Wolves, is how that vision remains reality.

So which is it, you said it's the vision then you said it's practicality.
Anyway, surely the vision should trump practicality as much as possible, and if they wanted a world that feels alive and active they should find ways to have more going on.

If I ever want to make some art or do something I would enjoy, and someone told me I shouldn't do that because it cant be preserved for the future, I would not listen to them. I think if I worry too much about making things last I will miss the present. :)

No one's saying they shouldn't have done it, they're saying they should have done it differently. It's not like the choice was Destiny the way it is or nothing at all.
(Also I realize all this talking about it after the fact doesn't affect what's been made and decided on but I can hope maybe it'll affect the next update, the next game, or the next universe if we can actually get people to do more than begrudgingly support these ideas.)

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I would also love to see great things preserved as they were, but I don't think that ideal should ever become a restriction to the artist.

I didn't say it should.
Do you really think it's a matter of their vision, though? Do you really think their goal is that lofty?
I think it's practicality, and possibly a lack of forethought, and, maybe, an incentive to play on a regular basis so you don't miss things-- admittedly even if it is that's not messing with people's minds on the level of gambling for legendaries, but it's not what I'd call an artistic vision.

I think yes, it is a matter of the vision of Destiny. Overcoming practical challenges, like a voice actor you couldn't get back or limited space/memory for Blades and Wolves, is how that vision remains reality.

So which is it, you said it's the vision then you said it's practicality.
Anyway, surely the vision should trump practicality as much as possible, and if they wanted a world that feels alive and active they should find ways to have more going on.

If I ever want to make some art or do something I would enjoy, and someone told me I shouldn't do that because it cant be preserved for the future, I would not listen to them. I think if I worry too much about making things last I will miss the present. :)

No one's saying they shouldn't have done it, they're saying they should have done it differently.

If they'd done it differently, it would not be what it is or what it was. You want to preserve what it was last September, but unlike a static work of art, it's dynamic and relies/relied in part on live people interacting with it to exist. If you take away that aspect, you're not talking about Destiny any more.

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No one's saying they shouldn't have done it, they're saying they should have done it differently.

If they'd done it differently, it would not be what it is or what it was. You want to preserve what it was last September, but unlike a static work of art, it's dynamic and relies/relied in part on live people interacting with it to exist. If you take away that aspect, you're not talking about Destiny any more.

I'm not saying that. Why is this so hard to grasp? I'm fine with change. I don't like things being removed, never to be seen again, especially when those things are fun or took a lot of effort to make. I don't like the inability to choose when there are multiple versions of something.
Again with the false dichotomy too, the choice is not "Destiny as it is" or nothing at all, there are a million different ways they could've done this.

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No one's saying they shouldn't have done it, they're saying they should have done it differently.

If they'd done it differently, it would not be what it is or what it was. You want to preserve what it was last September, but unlike a static work of art, it's dynamic and relies/relied in part on live people interacting with it to exist. If you take away that aspect, you're not talking about Destiny any more.

I'm not saying that. Why is this so hard to grasp? I'm fine with change. I don't like things being removed, never to be seen again, especially when those things are fun or took a lot of effort to make. I don't like the inability to choose when there are multiple versions of something.
Again with the false dichotomy too, the choice is not "Destiny as it is" or nothing at all, there are a million different ways they could've done this.

Again, it wouldn't have been Destiny. They've talked about the world changing from the beginning. Get used to things, places, and people going away never to be seen again. That's life. All the more reason to savor each "age" of Destiny.

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I think yes, it is a matter of the vision of Destiny. Overcoming practical challenges, like a voice actor you couldn't get back or limited space/memory for Blades and Wolves, is how that vision remains reality.

So which is it, you said it's the vision then you said it's practicality.
Anyway, surely the vision should trump practicality as much as possible, and if they wanted a world that feels alive and active they should find ways to have more going on.

If you look at how I worded my comment, I was trying to say practical decisions are how a vision comes to be. They are intertwined. A vision is the dream; the practical efforts are the dream-become-reality.

Bungie decided to create an always-online game that allowed for the type of interconnected gameplay we have now experienced. In making that vision a reality, they came across challenges - and have continued to do so, and will always continue to do so, as any creator does.

This is where decisions have to be made. Examples we've mentioned already are decisions regarding having a unified Ghost going forward or how they want to handle temporary public area 'invasions'. To me, these are the 'practical' steps in making Destiny continue to exist.

Obviously people won't like every change they make and I'm not saying you or anyone else shouldn't criticize those decisions. And I, too, hope the world continues to feel even more alive.

But a lot of what I've been trying to say here is that, to me, a number of comments in this thread, mostly by Cody, goes beyond critiquing those decisions in an effort to improve it, and more about disliking the foundation - that base vision - of Destiny.

And if you dislike what Destiny wants to be, that's fine too. But a year in (or even a year out), it's not going to switch mediums or become a different thing entirely.

To me, continuing this direction of negative deconstruction is, to continue the metaphor, like going up to a director of a play and telling them they should have made a movie. That person is welcome to have and say their opinion, but it doesn't help the director or anyone else trying to make or enjoy the play better.

I'll always remember Cody telling me I should get out of comics because he thought the medium was bad. But when I sit down to make a comic, that kind of comment doesn't help me or the potential reader of the comic. It's just Cody's opinion, which is fine for him to have. But if he keeps telling me that every issue I release or something, I'm going to say in a Dude voice, "Hey man, this is just a negative vibe at this point, man. Tell me how to make what I'm making better, not what I should be making. Man." :)

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I'll always remember Cody telling me I should get out of comics because he thought the medium was bad. But when I sit down to make a comic, that kind of comment doesn't help me or the potential reader of the comic. It's just Cody's opinion, which is fine for him to have. But if he keeps telling me that every issue I release or something, I'm going to say in a Dude voice, "Hey man, this is just a negative vibe at this point, man. Tell me how to make what I'm making better, not what I should be making. Man." :)

I think that the 'what' is a perfectly valid form of criticism. Bioshock Infinite was an FPS, but as Tevis Thompson put very well:

"This line of thinking seems illegitimate to most reviewers. You can’t question a game’s genre. You are supposed to take the game on its own genre terms, see what it’s trying to do within them, and then evaluate it fairly. But what if what it’s trying to do is dumb? Telling the story of a violent man trying to come to terms with his crimes while using lightning to make heads explode is dumb."

Narcogen has said multiple times that my criticisms should be discounted because I wish Bungie had made another game. Examining such choices critically is perfectly acceptable, and in fact should be encouraged. Destiny is a game about shooting monsters with your friends and getting cool guns. So why can I not argue that an MMO is a dumb way to do that?

Farmville was absolutely ravaged by critics, but by all accounts it did exactly what it set out to do. For the experience it was trying to provide, it was fantastic. But that experience was dumb. Just like having to play the same shit over and over so you can earn marks or get drops is dumb.

As for comics, I regret telling you not to work on them. While I stand by my belief that they are a medium essentially replaced by better media, the fact of the matter is those other better media are very resource intensive. Not everybody has those resources, so if you wish to hone your skills in comics and don't have a bazillion dollars to make animation, that's perfectly fine, and you can learn a lot about your craft by doing so. You might even make the best comic book ever!

But if you do have the resources and years of expertise, and you just keep putting out comics, I think it's entirely valid to suggest trying to express your ideas in a more capable medium. If your ideas or presentation are hampered by a limited medium, it's not improper to criticize that choice.

In that sense, such a criticism really is telling you how to make something better. If that director you were talking about didn't have 10 million dollars, than sure, make a play. But if he did, and the ideas in the play would have been better expressed in film, then it's a perfectly valid thing to say to him.

If I want to show the beauty of a sunset, and I shot it in black and white, would it be wrong to say "You should have shot that in color if that's what you were going for?"

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Better media, huh? As simple as that. SMH.

Your self-regard could use a helluva haircut.

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Better media, huh? As simple as that. SMH.

Your self-regard could use a helluva haircut.

I don't think anybody will contend that certain media do things better than other media. It stands to reason then, that a given idea is best expressed in a medium most suited for it. It's just reasoning, not disrespect.

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I'll always remember Cody telling me I should get out of comics because he thought the medium was bad. But when I sit down to make a comic, that kind of comment doesn't help me or the potential reader of the comic. It's just Cody's opinion, which is fine for him to have. But if he keeps telling me that every issue I release or something, I'm going to say in a Dude voice, "Hey man, this is just a negative vibe at this point, man. Tell me how to make what I'm making better, not what I should be making. Man." :)

I think that the 'what' is a perfectly valid form of criticism. Bioshock Infinite was an FPS, but as Tevis Thompson put very well:

"This line of thinking seems illegitimate to most reviewers. You can’t question a game’s genre. You are supposed to take the game on its own genre terms, see what it’s trying to do within them, and then evaluate it fairly. But what if what it’s trying to do is dumb? Telling the story of a violent man trying to come to terms with his crimes while using lightning to make heads explode is dumb."

Narcogen has said multiple times that my criticisms should be discounted because I wish Bungie had made another game. Examining such choices critically is perfectly acceptable, and in fact should be encouraged. Destiny is a game about shooting monsters with your friends and getting cool guns. So why can I not argue that an MMO is a dumb way to do that?

I think you can do that. What I don't understand is why you KEEP doing it. For years. In a forum that was generally intended as a gathering for fans of the game.

I mean, I get your criticism and your opinions so much I can truly predict your posts as any news comes out now.

Farmville was absolutely ravaged by critics, but by all accounts it did exactly what it set out to do. For the experience it was trying to provide, it was fantastic. But that experience was dumb. Just like having to play the same shit over and over so you can earn marks or get drops is dumb.

Okay, that's your opinion. So if you're trying to say Destiny is the same, why not stop playing it? Would you find yourself at a Farmville forum telling people what they like is "dumb" for years? Would that help the developer? The people who do like it? Would it help you?

As for comics, I regret telling you not to work on them. While I stand by my belief that they are a medium essentially replaced by better media, the fact of the matter is those other better media are very resource intensive. Not everybody has those resources, so if you wish to hone your skills in comics and don't have a bazillion dollars to make animation, that's perfectly fine, and you can learn a lot about your craft by doing so. You might even make the best comic book ever!

But if you do have the resources and years of expertise, and you just keep putting out comics, I think it's entirely valid to suggest trying to express your ideas in a more capable medium. If your ideas or presentation are hampered by a limited medium, it's not improper to criticize that choice.

And since I don't think it's a 'limited medium', those comments won't help me at all. :/

In that sense, such a criticism really is telling you how to make something better. If that director you were talking about didn't have 10 million dollars, than sure, make a play. But if he did, and the ideas in the play would have been better expressed in film, then it's a perfectly valid thing to say to him.

I said it was perfectly valid. It just doesn't help him since he obviously wanted to make a play and use the unique aspects of the medium to tell his story. You apparently don't care for certain mediums, so why would he listen to someone who isn't even his intended audience?

If I want to show the beauty of a sunset, and I shot it in black and white, would it be wrong to say "You should have shot that in color if that's what you were going for?"

No, of course not. But from my point of view, this metaphor is sort of different. Destiny IS trying to use color to take a shot of the sunset. You just don't find the sunset - playing with people all the time in a shared changing world - worth the cost of color film - always online, things added and lost . And that's a valid opinion. I might share it if I didn't enjoy the sunset so much.

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No, of course not. But from my point of view, this metaphor is sort of different. Destiny IS trying to use color to take a shot of the sunset. You just don't find the sunset - playing with people all the time in a shared changing world - worth the cost of color film - always online, things added and lost . And that's a valid opinion. I might share it if I didn't enjoy the sunset so much.

Interestingly in the case of Destiny, I think we do both like the sunset. Playing with others is absolutely the best part of Destiny. We agree.

To extend your analogy, I'm saying that you can get color film for less money than you think… and that the qualities that make black and white film so great, don't really apply to a sunset anyway.

Or something. Metaphors.

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As for comics, I regret telling you not to work on them. While I stand by my belief that they are a medium essentially replaced by better media, the fact of the matter is those other better media are very resource intensive. Not everybody has those resources, so if you wish to hone your skills in comics and don't have a bazillion dollars to make animation, that's perfectly fine, and you can learn a lot about your craft by doing so. You might even make the best comic book ever!

Cody, I love you, you ridiculous man. After several years, you've modified your opinion that a medium should not exist... because now you think it acts as training for a better medium. I haven't read further yet, I hope you stopped after this, because no one's going take you that seriously in this thread or probably this month. Yes, you have some valid points elsewhere, the genre and even the medium of something should open for people to say "really, you picked that?", but you reiterated that an artist's chosen medium-- an artist this community is quite fond of-- serves only as the tricycle to another medium's bicycle. That's... I love you, man, I can't stop grinning.
I am curious, still, and I'll ask since it was brought up again, why does this not apply to a book? Everything supersedes books, but IIRC you don't think they're obsolete.

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I am curious, still, and I'll ask since it was brought up again, why does this not apply to a book? Everything supersedes books, but IIRC you don't think they're obsolete.

http://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=81284

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I am curious, still, and I'll ask since it was brought up again, why does this not apply to a book? Everything supersedes books, but IIRC you don't think they're obsolete.

http://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=81284

Why do books have unique things they do but not comics? Surely the things a book lacks that are points in its favor should apply to comics, right? What about static visual art, paintings and drawings and such? Does that have a place on its own? Why is it the addition of the unique things books do and the unique things static visual art does isn't a substantial and worthy whole? Why does it need sound and the illusion of motion to be a medium worth using as something other than a training exercise? You mentioned the needs and character of a story, is there any story that would be suited to a comic book style of composition? Why am I going down this rabbit hole? (answer: because this viewpoint and flow of logic is, well it's pretty familiar because you've been around for years, but it's still very alien to me, I don't really grasp it, and I think it's kind of funny, and those all make me want to know more)

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But if you do have the resources and years of expertise, and you just keep putting out comics, I think it's entirely valid to suggest trying to express your ideas in a more capable medium. If your ideas or presentation are hampered by a limited medium, it's not improper to criticize that choice.

Always good to have you around to look down on the entire industries and professions. :/

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Right, but Destiny has chosen to be temporary. They've been pretty much declaring that since the beginning. It may not be what you want it to be, but that's what Destiny is. It's going to continue to be that way.

But art shapes culture. Temporary art means temporary culture.

By this argument, evolving art means evolving culture. Which sounds good to me.

I'm convinced people are selfish and don't care about the future anymore. I was in a conversation the other day, where the person mentioned that nothing was worth dying for. I said "Really? Nothing?" and they affirmed that. To me that is completely astounding that anyone would consider their own (temporary) existence to be literally the most important thing in the world. What about the ideas and institutions of the world that stood before and will stand after you? Ideas and institutions that improve and protect the lives of billions? That let you live the wonderful life you have now, and will help far more people in the future?

And guess what, art can directly affect these ideas and institutions by contributing to the culture! No wonder people don't care if their art is disposable!

Changing something is not the same as disposing of it. I'm all for artistic evolution. Do you never change your cuts after the initial pass? Do your films run three times in theaters, first for your original cut, second for the director's cut, and third for the final producer-approved cut, just so everyone can see the art as it was at each stage?

Why is it so hard to imagine a video game as a collaborative medium that changes over time? Certainly the way in which you interact with the game changes as you get better at it. It makes sense that the way in which the game interacts with you could also change.

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Why is it so hard to imagine a video game as a collaborative medium that changes over time? Certainly the way in which you interact with the game changes as you get better at it. It makes sense that the way in which the game interacts with you could also change.

I am absolutely on board with video games being able to change with updates and stuff, but imagine:

You buy your favorite album from your favorite band, but the CD player is always connected to the internet and will only play what the record label wants you to hear. One day, it has downloaded new data, and only plays a new version of the album.

That sounds absurd right? You paid for something, but what you bought is being changed without you having any say.

In a way, if Destiny were a subscription model I might not have a problem. At least then, you are paying a certain amount to play the game for a month, knowing that the experience is temporary (one month). So long as they patch the game at the top of the month, you can't really feel cheated out of an experience, because you got exactly what you paid for (one month of play).

It just feels like when I spend a chunk of money to 'own' something, the experience shouldn't be changed without my approval.

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Before you bought Destiny, you thought it was going to be a completely static experience and nothing would be changed, added, or removed to it?

When I read "always online" and lots of talk about a changing game world, I went "Hmm, well I don't usually like that sort of thing, because I won't love every change, and it will be temporary experience, but I'll try it out."

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It's interesting you brought this up. While I was waiting... and waiting... for the update to download, I was thinking about how Bungie could have distributed this update better.

I thought to my self they could do as the did with the Halo 2 Multiplayer Map Pack. The I released, part of the reason I got the map pack on disk was so I could play it later on in the future (then of course 343 came along).

Once Destiny is done... that's it. There is no going back, for as far as I can tell. We'll have a stack of disks for Destiny and never be able to use them again. Once "Destiny One" is done, will we ever need to put it back into our respective console? Or do we instantly get a AOL style Bungie themed coaster?

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Once Destiny is done... that's it. There is no going back, for as far as I can tell. We'll have a stack of disks for Destiny and never be able to use them again. Once "Destiny One" is done, will we ever need to put it back into our respective console? Or do we instantly get a AOL style Bungie themed coaster?

This is really my only concern (if that's even the right word for, since I don't really care that much) about this issue. More and more, I'm leaning towards thinking that Destiny "1" will never go away. It's just going to be added to, much like what WoW has done. Yesterday showed us that Bungie doesn't mind pushing out absolutely huge downloads/updates, so the only real downside to never getting a Destiny 2 and Destiny 3 is all the hard drive space that will be taken up by all the content. There won't be room for anything else!

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It's interesting you brought this up. While I was waiting... and waiting... for the update to download, I was thinking about how Bungie could have distributed this update better.

I thought to my self they could do as the did with the Halo 2 Multiplayer Map Pack. The I released, part of the reason I got the map pack on disk was so I could play it later on in the future (then of course 343 came along).

Once Destiny is done... that's it. There is no going back, for as far as I can tell. We'll have a stack of disks for Destiny and never be able to use them again. Once "Destiny One" is done, will we ever need to put it back into our respective console? Or do we instantly get a AOL style Bungie themed coaster?

I say it's way too early to fret. Where there is an audience there will be a way. Bandwidth should not be an issue in ten years. If history is any guide, Destiny might one day be open source--the real problem might be console entropy, but maybe console emulation will solve that.

The other issue is that there has to be enough people to ensure the living world is alive. Otherwise, it's not really Destiny, right?

I think by then a lot of gamers will be jacked into their VR headsets experiencing something no one has imagined yet.

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I had this great meal the other day. I'm glad I made a video of myself enjoying it because the next time I ordered the same thing the chef had decided to change the recipe and I didn't like it.

If you watch my video you'll know exactly how good it was.

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Wiping away the past (Destiny)

I don't see it as a negative, necessarily.

I don't see it as a negative, necessarily.

I do necessarily see it as a negative

I do necessarily see it as a negative

I do necessarily see it as a negative

I do necessarily see it as a negative

I do necessarily see it as a negative

I do necessarily see it as a negative

I do necessarily see it as a negative