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Hey Cody! (Games as Art, etc.) (Gaming)

by cheapLEY @, Monday, September 28, 2015, 22:52 (3344 days ago)

http://www.polygon.com/2015/9/28/9370821/wtf-is-wrong-with-video-games-excerpt

I haven't finished the entire excerpt yet, so I can't really comment, but I'd just like to put it out there. Might generate some interesting discussion (or it might just have this place rehashing the same discussion that has occurred a hundred times here already).

I might spend the 3 bucks for this ebook, but we'll see when I finish the excerpt.

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Hey Cody! (Games as Art, etc.)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 00:17 (3344 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I might spend the 3 bucks for this ebook, but we'll see when I finish the excerpt.

Based on that article he is barely even touching the surface of a problem he simply doesn't understand. The shiv isn't the problem.

Nobody used to complain about these 'gamey' elements in their games. Now that complaint is rife. The reason why, is that the aesthetics of games have advanced so much that the mechanics have yet to catch up. We can get these wonderful beautiful worlds to be in, but be hampered with the incredibly limited interactions the game provides. It's like the uncanny valley in a way. The world looks real, but as soon as you try to 'touch' it you see the limitations and reject it as fake.

It is a problem of the mechanics and aesthetics not being compatible.

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Hey Cody! (Games as Art, etc.)

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 00:36 (3344 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I can't say I disagree with that.

I still think people are expecting weird things from games. Yeah, the Last of Us tells a pretty compelling story. I can't help but thinking that the same story would have worked better as a movie, if done correctly.

On the other hand, there is something to be said for feeling more attached to Ellie because of actually "going through" something with her through the gameplay. I did have fun playing The Last of Us, a lot of fun actually, but there are a lot of ways that the gameplay doesn't live up to the story the game is telling. It's sort of the opposite of Destiny actually, where the moment to moment gameplay is incredibly fun, but there's not really a deep narrative experience. There's good and bad about either approach, but I'd argue that something like Destiny has the better experience, where the "art" of the game is its moment to moment mechanics, whereas the "art" of The Last of Us is its narrative, with its gameplay just sort of tacked on to that.

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Hey Cody! (Games as Art, etc.)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 02:02 (3343 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I can't say I disagree with that.

I still think people are expecting weird things from games. Yeah, the Last of Us tells a pretty compelling story. I can't help but thinking that the same story would have worked better as a movie, if done correctly.

On the other hand, there is something to be said for feeling more attached to Ellie because of actually "going through" something with her through the gameplay. I did have fun playing The Last of Us, a lot of fun actually, but there are a lot of ways that the gameplay doesn't live up to the story the game is telling. It's sort of the opposite of Destiny actually, where the moment to moment gameplay is incredibly fun, but there's not really a deep narrative experience. There's good and bad about either approach, but I'd argue that something like Destiny has the better experience, where the "art" of the game is its moment to moment mechanics, whereas the "art" of The Last of Us is its narrative, with its gameplay just sort of tacked on to that.

I feel quite differently, myself. I think The Last of Us works as well as it does specifically because it is a videogame. It is one of the few games that has really tapped into the unique storytelling potential of the medium. The player's relationship with Ellie forms the way it does because we are literally responsible for her well being. It is up to us to keep her safe. That relationship develops when she starts to help us in actual impactful in-game ways. The first time I saw her throw bricks at a Hunter or jump on a hunter and fight back, I was literally proud of her. She had watched me, learned from me, and was now taking care of herself. That's a kind of narrative development that I think can only be achieved in games because it plays on our active roll in the experience.

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Hey Cody! (Games as Art, etc.)

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 14:49 (3343 days ago) @ Cody Miller

And yet you dish on indie games because of their aesthetic even when they're trying to introduce novel mechanic advancements?

Hey Cody! (Games as Art, etc.)

by Oholiab @, Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 01:10 (3344 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I know I'm rehashing old ground here, but reading this excerpt reminds me of how much I enjoy ODST. My daughter and I have been playing through it again, so it's fresh in my mind.

There are very few "game mechanics" that get in the way of the story, and instead there are a lot of key gameplay decisions that mesh seamlessly with the narrative. The choice of guns, the "open" world", the non-linear story, the environment, even the visor... so many little gameplay design decisions work to enhance the film noire concept that drove the production. This marriage of storytelling and game mechanics seems to be the "art" to which the author refers.

My daughter knows nothing about film noire storytelling or video game design, so I find it very telling that she refers to the game as "Halo Mystery". She gets the concept without being told it explicitly because almost everything in the gameplay works with the story narrative to create a cohesive whole.

And dat music!

Ugh no

by electricpirate @, Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 02:08 (3343 days ago) @ cheapLEY

My problem with his argument, is this incredibly narrow definition he has for art and what it can be.

I started making a list, and I realized that I was just rehashing this piece in polygon from a year ago.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/10/6101639/games-art

While the piece here is a bit over the top, I think the basic premises still stand. Meaning is more than just message, art is more about social context than the art object, and games transmit meaning in very different ways.

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This guy sounds like someone who hates games and his job

by Kahzgul, Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 16:47 (3343 days ago) @ cheapLEY

His argument seems to be that the Last of Us is flawed because it contains game elements? I'll be honest: If the gameplay in The Last of Us wasn't compelling, that game would have been a painful experience. But they got the combat down to be fun and interesting. Sure the game is linear, but the lines are broad, so you can advance down the street, or through a building, or by jumping a fence and taking a side alley. And there are often large, square areas where you have to get from one corner to the opposite one with a host of enemies in the way and loads of cover to hide behind. The choice of stealth vs. assault is also nearly always available, which means any "linear" area can actually be traversed via two wholly different gameplay experiences, or a combination of them.

A linear map is not the same as a linear game, and the author seems not to get that.

Then, at the end, he extolls on the virtues of Gears of War which is (seriously) almost identical to The Last of Us in terms of combat gameplay. This guy is getting distracted by the non game elements and holding the better story up to a higher standard than the more pulp action game, even though they both play in similar fashions.

The end result is, at least from this excerpt, the author comes off as someone who hates video games and was assigned to write this by his editor. It's not a critical examination of gaming as art, so much as it's a critical examination of games with the expectation that compelling stories are better told via a different medium.

I wholly disagree with what appears to be the premise of this excerpt, and i think that author does himself a disservice by speaking in absolutes rather than acknowledging that his own opinions are not facts, his findings are not scientific, and his concept of game mechanics is inconstant.

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This guy sounds like someone who hates games and his job

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 17:07 (3343 days ago) @ Kahzgul

His argument seems to be that the Last of Us is flawed because it contains game elements? I'll be honest: If the gameplay in The Last of Us wasn't compelling, that game would have been a painful experience. But they got the combat down to be fun and interesting. Sure the game is linear, but the lines are broad, so you can advance down the street, or through a building, or by jumping a fence and taking a side alley. And there are often large, square areas where you have to get from one corner to the opposite one with a host of enemies in the way and loads of cover to hide behind. The choice of stealth vs. assault is also nearly always available, which means any "linear" area can actually be traversed via two wholly different gameplay experiences, or a combination of them.

I agree that The Last of Us had compelling gameplay and combat, and in a lot of ways it really makes the story stand out and adds a sort of deeper connection to it. The combat can be really, really tense and makes me feel like I am really experiencing what Joel is going through.

But I think he's right (to an extent) with his shiv example. It crossed my mind as well when I first played. Really? He can't just pull that thing out of the zombie's neck? Granted, after that initial thought, I forgot about it, and it didn't really detract from the narrative at all, but I think the point he was getting at was that there are certainly some instances where it can.

I wholly disagree with what appears to be the premise of this excerpt, and i think that author does himself a disservice by speaking in absolutes rather than acknowledging that his own opinions are not facts, his findings are not scientific, and his concept of game mechanics is inconstant.

I can't agree with this attitude. I see this sort of sentiment leveraged against Cody all the time, too, and I don't really get it. It's an opinion piece, of course it's his opinion, that shouldn't have to be stamped all over it for it to be clear. Of course he speaks like his opinion is correct (and taken as fact), that's his opinion and what he bases his thoughts on. I'm not saying that he can't (or shouldn't) try to see things from another perspective, but that's not really what you do in an opinion piece like that.

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This guy sounds like someone who hates games and his job

by Kahzgul, Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 20:31 (3343 days ago) @ cheapLEY

His argument seems to be that the Last of Us is flawed because it contains game elements? I'll be honest: If the gameplay in The Last of Us wasn't compelling, that game would have been a painful experience. But they got the combat down to be fun and interesting. Sure the game is linear, but the lines are broad, so you can advance down the street, or through a building, or by jumping a fence and taking a side alley. And there are often large, square areas where you have to get from one corner to the opposite one with a host of enemies in the way and loads of cover to hide behind. The choice of stealth vs. assault is also nearly always available, which means any "linear" area can actually be traversed via two wholly different gameplay experiences, or a combination of them.


I agree that The Last of Us had compelling gameplay and combat, and in a lot of ways it really makes the story stand out and adds a sort of deeper connection to it. The combat can be really, really tense and makes me feel like I am really experiencing what Joel is going through.

But I think he's right (to an extent) with his shiv example. It crossed my mind as well when I first played. Really? He can't just pull that thing out of the zombie's neck? Granted, after that initial thought, I forgot about it, and it didn't really detract from the narrative at all, but I think the point he was getting at was that there are certainly some instances where it can.

I wholly disagree with what appears to be the premise of this excerpt, and i think that author does himself a disservice by speaking in absolutes rather than acknowledging that his own opinions are not facts, his findings are not scientific, and his concept of game mechanics is inconstant.


I can't agree with this attitude. I see this sort of sentiment leveraged against Cody all the time, too, and I don't really get it. It's an opinion piece, of course it's his opinion, that shouldn't have to be stamped all over it for it to be clear. Of course he speaks like his opinion is correct (and taken as fact), that's his opinion and what he bases his thoughts on. I'm not saying that he can't (or shouldn't) try to see things from another perspective, but that's not really what you do in an opinion piece like that.

An opinion piece? No. It's a book. An entire book. The article is just an excerpt from the book, and the attitude taken in that excerpt makes it sound like the entire book is going to be one guy's opinions, coming entirely from a perspective where gameplay is secondary to story and games are assumed to be inferior to film. Again, he's not actually examining anything scientifically, he's not talking to experts, he's not grounding his book in anything other than his biases. I can't take him seriously because there is no scholarly element to this book.

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This guy sounds like someone who hates games and his job

by Funkmon @, Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 17:47 (3343 days ago) @ Kahzgul

I think you're right, but I don't think he hates games. I think he wants to hate games.

For this guy, the best game would be a movie...except he likes games that are good games. I seriously think he's like a health food nut who really really loves McDonald's and won't admit it.

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That's funny

by Kahzgul, Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 20:32 (3343 days ago) @ Funkmon

- No text -

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What is Art?

by Durandal, Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 17:24 (3343 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Is it something that requires skill? Or evokes emotion?

I mean we have seen the concept art for Destiny, and everyone can agree that it looks beautiful.

Sample concept art

Many of these images have been pretty faithfully rendered into the actual game. Does that change in media lessen them somehow? Reduce them to something less then their creators intended?

Does the interaction of the person playing with the game enhance or reduce these places? How about the fiction surrounding them?

If we can see the art and appeal of a precise, minimalist cup or glass why can't we enjoy the rich tapestry of a AAA title?

Videogames are becoming the cathedrals of our time, now that all ornamentation and displays of pride and status are ruthlessly removed from our actual buildings and replaced with ugly concrete and glass abstract cubes. Each game encourages players to find that particular look or place, to show off something.

Yet it can't be art, because it isn't in a museum where art snobs can go, drink a little and pretend they liked it before it was cool.

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That does seem to be what the art snobs are saying

by Kahzgul, Tuesday, September 29, 2015, 20:33 (3343 days ago) @ Durandal

Ugh, those snobs. They think anything fun is automatically "not art."

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