Today's Shower Rumination *Lore SP?*

Eris has the worm.

What do you think the chances are that she's ingested one of those things?

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Eris has the worm.

What do you think the chances are that she's ingested one of those things?

How else would she begin to grow the 3rd eye? How else does one infuse oneself with darkness? The shard grimoires talk about this pretty explicitly.

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Eris has the worm.

What do you think the chances are that she's ingested one of those things?

How else would she begin to grow the 3rd eye? How else does one infuse oneself with darkness? The shard grimoires talk about this pretty explicitly.

They do? I don't remember Eris being mentioned at all in the Book of Sorrows. Unless it was in one of Toland's ramblings?

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Eris has the worm.

What do you think the chances are that she's ingested one of those things?

How else would she begin to grow the 3rd eye? How else does one infuse oneself with darkness? The shard grimoires talk about this pretty explicitly.

They do? I don't remember Eris being mentioned at all in the Book of Sorrows. Unless it was in one of Toland's ramblings?

Sorry, I meant they were explicit in that the Hive could only become the hive through the population-wide integration of worms. Like, worms are the connection means through which darkness works.

Different from being Taken though, I think. Forgive my brevity; I'm on my phone.

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Oh, gitcha. I believe the Hive started out with 3 eyes, even when they were Krill?

Something definitely happened to Eris, but I wonder why it would manifest as a third eye.

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Oh, gitcha. I believe the Hive started out with 3 eyes, even when they were Krill?

Correct, when the three daughters swear their vengeance against Taox in Verse 1:3 – The Oath, each daughter swears by one of their eyes: Xi Ro, left; Sathona, right; Aurash, center.

Something definitely happened to Eris, but I wonder why it would manifest as a third eye.

Yeah, no idea...

The only thing I have in relation to the "Eris has the worm" idea is that right after she teleports you from Crota's throne, she says something along the lines of, "There is nothing I fear more than the Darkness, but I will not lose another Guardian!"

Did she ingest a worm to survive in the Hellmouth and had to call upon its powers to get the Guardian out, or was that something else?

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She says she used one of Toland's "spells". That seems pretty explicitly non-worm based.

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If Eris has a worm, then she would be the one to replace Oryx since we refused to do so. If that's her plan, then the Queen's sacrifice makes no sense. We could have killed Oryx without her fleet attacking.

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Following the Sword Logic, I don't know how anyone could replace her but ourselves. Though we didn't kill her with a Sword, so the power we took would be diminished without the direct connection?

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Oryx had a lot of support ships that the Awoken engaged and destroyed. Maybe we would not have even gotten close to Oryx without that battle happening first? Also, if anyone is looking to be a successor it'd be Toland:

It is to Oryx Himself, in the heart of the Dreadnaught that armors and encapsulates his throne-world, that you must make your last and surest argument.

Good luck! Do let me know if a vacancy opens.

And:

All right. Enough. Enough. A vacancy has opened, hasn’t it?

How interesting. How very interesting.

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Oryx had a lot of support ships that the Awoken engaged and destroyed. Maybe we would not have even gotten close to Oryx without that battle happening first?

It's also possible that the Dreadnaught would have been too powerful (or maneuverable) for us or the Cabal to board without the damage inflicted by the Queen's Harbinger strike.

-- Steve thinks those were the reason Guardians even stood a chance.

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Grimoire > Activities > The Taken King > The Coming War

“The Awoken died for us. They gave their lives to save the system, to stop Oryx's fleet at the outer planets. We must honor their sacrifice. We must face the Taken King without fear. Queen Mara has given us a gift. We must not waste it.” - Eris Morn

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Also, I don't buy that the Queen is actually dead. I really wouldn't be surprised if Mara knew the trick of creating a "throne world" (the same way that Oryx, Savathûn, Xivu Arath, and Crota practiced their Sword Logic and prevented death in the real world). It would also possibly explain why "the Awoken walk between the Light and the Dark" and other such mysteries about them.

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It's also not an ability unique to the Hive. Hiding your "death" somewhere safe so you can be resurrected seems very similar to the function our ghost serves.

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It's also not an ability unique to the Hive. Hiding your "death" somewhere safe so you can be resurrected seems very similar to the function our ghost serves.

I was trying to figure out how the Ghost mechanism is different than how the Hive do it, but I haven't come across something solid yet. They're similar, but seem to have fundamental differences in that the Hive variant requires a different dimension, whereas the Ghost method requires the Ghost/Light.

For the Hive, a True Death means to die in your throne world. For Guardians, a True Death means that your Light/Ghost is lost.

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They're similar, but seem to have fundamental differences in that the Hive variant requires a different dinension

Not necessarily, I think? The three wizards you fight in the Court of Oryx "hid their deaths" in each other rather than in an alternate dimension, and Kagoor hid hers in her Servile Ogre. that might be something unique to Wizards, but it's seems very similar to the Guardian/Ghost dynamic.

It might be something different though, just a way to quickly be resurrected rather than returning to your Throne World first.

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Guardians and their Ghosts can be killed outright by standard heavy bombardment. That's how Petra got demoted and that's what the Cabal have observed or theorized. Ascendant Hive can be blasted all they want outside of their throne worlds and be just fine.

My thought is the Hive's immortality is based on their worms and The Darkness and ours is more tied to the Travelers subtle changes to the universe and that the two are far more different than they appear. The Hive conquer and destroy, but even at its most dangerous and most desperate the Traveler gently influences the world around itself.

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The only reason carpet bombing is effective against a Guardian is because it kills their Ghost.

The Ghost is, in effect, carrying our death.

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The Ghost is, in effect, carrying our death.

Except that we never took any action to "put our death" in our Ghost. We were already dead when the Ghosts were created. Do the Ghosts take our death and prop us up with Light?

I feel like I'm over-thinking it at this point.

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I was thinking about this too. Your ghost makes a big deal about finding the right person. Is that because your ghost chooses you? Or because the traveller grabbed your soul from somewhere, gave it to the ghost and said "here, go find this guy"....?

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Well, we know the Ghost tried at least one other person before he tried you. He tried to revive a Guardian in stasis on one of the colony ships.

Taken King also plays a lot with the idea of dimensions and perceived realities, and machine consciousness. Maybe at some point during the Golden Age, anyone who's now a Guardian had scanned or uploaded their consciousness to some database? Or maybe the Traveler pulled your consciousness from a different point in time to stick in your newly materialized body.

Maybe in the Destiny universe, there is another dimension for the consciousness of dead people? We've seen frequent references to Thanatonauts who presumably enter this other realm. A ton of the flavor text on year 2 warlock gear references things like "where we were before it brought us back".

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Or maybe the Traveler pulled your consciousness from a different point in time to stick in your newly materialized body.

I've been mulling that as an answer to how Awaken characters can be found in the Cosmodrome, given that there were none before the collapse and I gather none fled to Earth until considerably later.

-- Steve could be way wrong on that, though.

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Given that our Ghost had been looking for us for "centuries" I think there's enough of a time frame for the Awoken to form the reef and have some attempt to come back home to Earth. And die. And be Forged in Light.

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This. I've never assumed that our Guardian was alive during the Collapse or died with all the folks trying to escape on colony ships.

I always pictured her as a normal citizen of the Last City, perhaps someone who didn't accept being confined behind the walls, and was living out in the world. But now that I really think about it, I'm not sure that makes much sense, as the I don't get the impression that The Last City is anywhere near the Cosmodrome, so that would be quite a journey on foot. Which doesn't make it impossible, just less likely.

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I've always assumed that all Guardians were people who had been alive before the collapse, and that something in our ghost awakening us wiped our memories, which led to our current states. Perhaps the Traveler imprinted the Ghosts with patterns of the great warriors who fought before he was damaged? I don't think there's a single mention of a Guardian who was alive (and not a Guardian) after the Traveler was injured, right?

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Shin Malphur. He was only a child when Jaren Ward came to town with a Ghost over his shoulder. He grew up and eventually killed Dredgen Yor (by using Golden Gun no less!) in revenge for Jaren's murder. I don't think Shin is ever said to have died... Even if he did die before inheriting The Last Word, he was alive (and likely born) post collapse.

Which makes me happy because maybe Natela Tamaya Murk's use of Light without dying first fits...

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I really hope someone makes an anime of the stories of both The Last Word and Thorn. I want to see them in movie form so badly!

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I really hope someone makes an anime of the stories of both The Last Word and Thorn. I want to see them in movie form so badly!

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It's also not an ability unique to the Hive. Hiding your "death" somewhere safe so you can be resurrected seems very similar to the function our ghost serves.

I was trying to figure out how the Ghost mechanism is different than how the Hive do it, but I haven't come across something solid yet. They're similar, but seem to have fundamental differences in that the Hive variant requires a different dimension, whereas the Ghost method requires the Ghost/Light.

For the Hive, a True Death means to die in your throne world. For Guardians, a True Death means that your Light/Ghost is lost.

I've always assumed that the Ghost mechanism is an exact reproduction/copy of yourself, using an "echo" of your light as a template. The Hive mechanism seems to be a process where the information describing yourself is stored in an alternate dimension, and only a portion of that extrudes into our own, much like a 2D projection of a 3D object. Thus Crota and Oryx can always return once they have sufficient time to regenerate the extruded portion, but if the stored self is destroyed they are lost, where as a Guardian can always come back unless their light is extinguished or their Ghost destroyed.

Darkness zones are areas devoid of the traveler's light, so the Ghosts need to draw upon their own reserves, which is why a second ghost is needed to res in those areas.

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The Queen, and her coven of Tech Witches, have unspecified magic or technical power. In a setting where teleportation (Transmat/blink) is common it would be easy to assume she teleported away at the last moment just like you do before the wave hits Eris's ship.

Plus Petra's quest line has you hunting scraps of info that imply that the Queen survived but the Taken are hunting her across the system.

I've always assumed that the Queen's gambit only had delaying or stopping Oryx at Saturn as a secondary objective. She is too smart to bring an ineffectual fleet just to see it wiped out, although she did not know of Oryx's pulse wave ahead of time she should have surmised that the Dreadnought would have significant martial power. Nor does it seem plausible that she wanted to create an opening for your stealth attack, since 1) she didn't know about the pulse, and 2) her forces can fly up to the dreadnought as seen in the cutscene making stealth a moot point.

So a guardian could have run the hive gauntlet and landed a ship. the only reason you use a stealth drive is because the Hive (wisely) sets off the pulse anytime they detect an enemy.

So the only logical reason for the Queen to engage is to implant the Harbingers, and that can only be the starting point of her plan.

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Also, I don't buy that the Queen is actually dead. I really wouldn't be surprised if Mara knew the trick of creating a "throne world" (the same way that Oryx, Savathûn, Xivu Arath, and Crota practiced their Sword Logic and prevented death in the real world). It would also possibly explain why "the Awoken walk between the Light and the Dark" and other such mysteries about them.

That's what I took from the quest line for Petra that had us collecting Awaken debris from Taken forces across the solar system. Not necessarily that Mara Sov built herself an Oversoul, but that she had a similar extradimensional escape route for herself and her Techeun choir. (And possbily the Crow.)

-- Steve's just glad his guess that a Taken Mara Sov was the end boss of the Raid was wrong. *shudder*

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It'd also be a waste of a huge character to simply kill them off like that, IMO.

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There is a grimoire card from the Prince's point of view where he is crash-landed on Mars and clearly states he feels the Queen's presence in his mind, as if she couldn't be gone yet.

From what I took, they have some sort of telepathic bond which has not broken, implying she is still alive in some way or another. My guess would be something akin to the Hive's Ascendancy.

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How on Earth did he crash on Mars from a nuke going off next to Saturn?

I don't think I have that grimoire :(

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Aren't all of the Awoken worm-feeders? They talk about having a second voice in their heads, and they have hive-like witch-coven people, and Eris discusses "her queen" in the cutscenes, referencing the Awoken queen.

I think that the Queen will rise as the new ruler, but not by the law of the sword. Instead she flexed tactical power, sacrificing herself in the knowledge that it would spur events in the system to bring the guardians, kill Oryx, and lead to her resurrection as the true power in Sol. We are her sword, but she is the one who directs the blade.

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You know, it occurred to me when this thread popped up that maybe the Awoken are actually all bound to worms like the Hive and Ahamkara but I dunno. Maybe the worms aren't the only thing in the dark.

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You know, it occurred to me when this thread popped up that maybe the Awoken are actually all bound to worms like the Hive and Ahamkara but I dunno. Maybe the worms aren't the only thing in the dark.

They're almost certainly not the only things. All signs point to the Traveler being a small beacon of light in a vast sea of darkness. There are almost certainly stranger things out there, and definitely more powerful ones (since we've already defeated the Hive, and video games tend to get more difficult over time rather than easier).

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Yeah. I think whatever is tied to the origin of the Awoken is something either in another dimension entirely, or in/near our solar system. We still don't really know anything about the Nine or what's beyond the Jovians. Xur certainly doesn't look like anything produced by the Light. Dead Orbit's Arach Jalaal regularly spouts off his line about how "if there is only darkness beyond the Heliopause, we have already lost." One of the Warlock artifacts called Warp Fragment (I think) indicates it ventured well beyond our solar system, perhaps suggesting someone in the Golden Age had long-range FTL tech?

I dunno where I'm going with this. I hope they explore this more in upcoming content.

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I'm with you there. We're learning a lot about the pawns, but know little about the players and next to nothing about the rules and goals of the game. Heck, we don't even know if we've seen all of the players, and we don't know which of the people we've met are actually playing.

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We still don't really know anything about the Nine or what's beyond the Jovians. Xur certainly doesn't look like anything produced by the Light.

Which raises a related question; when the Dreadnaught arrived over Saturn, why didn't the Nine intervene? I don't think any political entity would be happy to have a major naval battle right in their backyard.

-- Steve's got a lot of questions about the geo*politics in Destiny.

* If that's quite the right prefix...

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Which raises a related question; when the Dreadnaught arrived over Saturn, why didn't the Nine intervene?

Well, you're assuming they have enough power to intervene with the Dreadnaught's fleet. You're also assuming they didn't, which, to be honest, is the more interesting thing to wonder about.

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Well, we're pretty sure the nine are testing us -- they let skolas go after the queen handed him over. Feels like someone is testing us to see how we will do against bigger and bigger threats.

Besides, if the nine were confident we would win, they could have pointed oryx in our direction to get rid of him.

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Today's Shower Rumination *Lore SP?* (Destiny)