On Time-Sensitive Activities and Available Game Time

TL;DR: Time-sensitive events in Destiny create great experiences but inherently filter out some of the player base because not everyone can play at the same time.

I have a complicated relationship with the activities in Destiny that happen at a specific time (Xûr, Trials of Osiris, Iron Banner, the new "enhanced" Dailies, today's First Firewall mission, etc.). Why they can be really great (and where their intent lies) is that limiting the time window for these events creates a focusing lens for the player base. When everyone has to get together and do something all at the same time, it helps spur a sense of community and gives the feeling of common accomplishment; it's a cool thing.

Except when you travel for long blocks of time for work and can't take your main console with you, leaving your Guardian stuck out in the cold (which is the boat I'm in right now). Bungie tweeted the following in response to a fan who was concerned about time-sensitive events:

These event[s] will be recurring. Please don't feel like you need to rearrange your calendar to play.

This tweet was meant to be reassuring, but some players are invariably going to end up having repeat conflicts with these events unless they do rearrange their calendars to partake in the event. Take me for instance: if Xenos's guess is correct and The First Firewall only makes itself seen on the first Armsday of the month (or on the 7th of each month, as Mariachi suggested), then the earliest I think I can get my hands on Sleeper Simulant is mid-December. Mid. December.

Obviously events that happen more regularly, like Trials on its weekly schedule, are easier to skip, but the ones on longer (or unknown!) cycles are more frustrating to miss out on. I don't remember my what last run at the Iron Banner was, but I think I've only purchased a single Etheric Light from Lord Saladin. Same thing goes for the Paradox mission from yesterday, although I expect that to be back a little more regularly (although the chance of a repeat goes down every time new missions become available!).

I've been trying to assess my feelings on this but I haven't come to a strong conclusion yet. There's certainly a bit of "keeping up with the Joneses" at play here,* but I think what I dislike most is not being able to game on my own time and feel like my time matters as much as those with more flexible schedules. The nature of my professional work means that I usually play games in bursts (between projects) and sometimes forego the console for weeks at a time. Having to mesh that with the Bungie's pre-determined schedule for events in-game can be frustrating. I am well aware that there are others here with even more demanding schedules than I have, so please don't take this as a "woe is I" post. It's just something I've been thinking about this week and felt like writing about it might help me sort things out. :)

At least I know what I'll be getting myself for Christmas:

[image]

* I am to some degree a "completionist" and part of me likes having cool, special things that are harder to come by. I think a lot of the discontent people have with Destiny revolves around feeling "slighted" by luck-of-the-draw, myself included. This is something I've been trying to work on personally ever since my struggles with finding Gjallarhorn hit a peak earlier this year; for the last few months I've been trying to find the "awesome" in what I do have and just enjoy when new stuff shows up.

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... for the last few months I've been trying to find the "awesome" in what I do have and just enjoy when new stuff shows up.

^This last bit is where I'm at. Don't know if I'll ever catch up on the PS4 now. (I've yet to play any of the Taken King, but I will). I feel like I've gone through my completionist phase of Destiny. Year Two is when I've decided to just have fun (and maybe have time to pursue other things, too.:))

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I've been doing the same thing, but now find myself, oddly, closer to being "complete" than at any time before in my Destiny play.

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I've been doing the same thing, but now find myself, oddly, closer to being "complete" than at any time before in my Destiny play.

Likewise. I think it's because I'm enjoying the wealth of activities laid out in front of me more than I ever did in year 1. In the past, new weapons were one of the few ways I could keep things fresh for myself. So collecting as many weapons as possible was important to me. I don't feel this way about year 2 so far. Hopefully it stays that way :)

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Hopefully it's like the daily story missions where they could appear on any given day and you never know which. If it's something like what Xenos suggested then I have a big problem with how they are doing this. Since we have no idea what their schedule for these things are, you might always be busy when it's available. Personally, I prefer what they do for IB/Xur/Trials because the limited availability is over a few days instead of just a single day. If the missions were available between Armsday and the departure of Xur for example, you'd have plenty of time to work it into your schedule unless you were on vacation or something. In that case you'd only have to wait for the next event, not some random day that you happen to be available.

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I agree with this. Trials in particular is the hardest for me. I'm not great... but part of that is due to the times I am available to play. Friday-Sunday I am spotty at best and often don't play those days. Getting anyone to wait to play trials until monday is difficult. When I did do this I'd play with people's 3rd alt or people who had finished what they wanted to do with trials. Not the ideal experience.

The new daily missions and such are also in this camp, they require you to be available when they are ready, not the other way around. It's a good/bad thing I suppose.

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"woe is I"

Is there a meme I am missing with this phrasing?

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"woe is I"

Is there a meme I am missing with this phrasing?

It's arguable that the correct form is with "I" instead of Shakespeare's "me." I don't have an attachment to either, not sure why I typed that one.

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Weird, I know.

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I read that. I admire his dedication to grammar. I have to say this:

Barely.

The phrase has been around in English since old English, when we were very German. Its phrasing is dative. You can see it here: "wa is me þet ic am swa fremede wiþ þe" The phrase didn't originate in the bible, though the Tyndale one used "Woe is unto me" in Corinthians. The KJV uses "unto" in Job as well.

By Shakespeare's time, it had been an idiom for hundreds of years, and its grammar rendered irrelevant, as by this time we used an objective case. Its use was not poetic, as the guy suggests, but a remnant of old grammar. For example, Shakespeare also uses "methinks," which is clearly dative in origin as well, meaning it seems to me. We keep remnants of Old English grammar around in plenty of places. In fact, most of our objective case pronouns are the dative equivalents, not the accusative ones. Is it arguable that he should use hin instead of him? Or whon instead of whom? Barely.

The poetic use the author is arguing for IS legitimate in other situations, but the "woe is me" phrase largely exists today because it is an idiom, not a grammatically incorrect phrase for some poetic use, like "I am woe." Its use as a condition is distinct from its use in woe is me.

So, that guy who wrote that article appears to me to be stretching to hypercorrect, that is, correcting something not even wrong in the first place, due to a misunderstanding he has. Then when people tell him, he resolutely ignores them and says it's a much more modern poetic use.

For my money, the argument for woe is I in that article are only slightly better than ones that we should call the pineapple a spinefruit.

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[bunch of stuff showing Funkmon knows his grammar snipped]

So, that guy who wrote that article appears to me to be stretching to hypercorrect, that is, correcting something not even wrong in the first place, due to a misunderstanding he has. Then when people tell him, he resolutely ignores them and says it's a much more modern poetic use.

Heh. This is the part that made me laugh.

Sometime when you've got a few minutes, google him.

I'm sure Safire made mistakes - but he didn't write columns based on misunderstandings. Ever.

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Yeah, you're probably right. I knew his On Language column, but never read it before Ben Zimmer took over, and now it's gone. I had assumed, because that one looked like the guy had a misunderstanding, it was a rotating staff and this was an iffy guy. Hmm. HMMMMMMM.

It's not my place to second guess a guy as well versed as that in language. He isn't a lexicographer or linguist, but neither am I. I am a historical language fan, but not a professional like he was. I'm going to ask a linguist I know about the phrase. If she tells me anything resolute, I'll update. There's also a book called Woe Is I I found on Amazon. I'll scope it out in a library and see what the author says.

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There's a fun grammar book (accepting the premise that such a thing exists) that you might enjoy called WOE IS I.

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I'm totally feeling you man.

I guess I'm more okay with timed unlocks than I am with timed exclusivity if that makes any sense. A good compromise I think would be making these missions available from the abandoned quests kiosk when they become available, or else just permanently hover over an NPCs head until you take it. So if you didn't do Heroic Paradox yesterday, you can just grab it from the kiosk or an NPC when you feel like doing it. That would preserve the aspect of community anticipation, but allow for flexible time schedules.

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I'm totally feeling you man.

I guess I'm more okay with timed unlocks than I am with timed exclusivity if that makes any sense. A good compromise I think would be making these missions available from the abandoned quests kiosk when they become available, or else just permanently hover over an NPCs head until you take it. So if you didn't do Heroic Paradox yesterday, you can just grab it from the kiosk or an NPC when you feel like doing it. That would preserve the aspect of community anticipation, but allow for flexible time schedules.

Good ideas and being a loner, PvE kind of player most of the time, I would make use of them.

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I really like this solution. I often am not able to get online on Wednesdays until late, and I'm usually tired by then. The last time Black Spindle came up I couldn't get online until after 10pm, and didn't make it to bed until 2am, only to get back up at 5am. I'm getting too old for that. I really wish I could have just picked it up as a quest that Wednesday and worked on it that Friday. Then I could have played fresh and enjoyed it.

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I'm totally with you on this. Real life DEFINITELY takes priority over Destiny, and that means I miss stuff. I'm sort of coming to an acceptance of that.

My problem is slightly different than yours, in that I'm not out of town (which makes PLAYING impossible), I'm just busy (which makes playing for any length of time, sometimes, impossible). In today's case, it turns out not to be a huge deal; the first mission is less than 10 minutes, start to finish, and the second is (by design) less than 4 minutes, total. The added pieces aren't time-gated (that is; once you have the fusion core, the stuff you need to do to charge it is available at any time, not limited to today), so if time were SUPER-tight, I'd have needed 15 minutes or so to get the important stuff done.

That said, sometimes even 15 minutes (or 2 minutes, what you might need to log in and find Xur on a weekend) is simply not available... and when it's not, you lose. Yeah, it's a temporary loss; you can always do whatever it is the next time it comes around.... unless you're busy THEN, too.

I dunno. I like it, because it's cool to have stuff like this. (Last night's mission was SUPERB. I really enjoyed it.) But I don't like it, because I miss stuff sometimes. Doesn't fit comfortably with my 'casual gamer' persona. ;)

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I'm totally with you on this. Real life DEFINITELY takes priority over Destiny, and that means I miss stuff. I'm sort of coming to an acceptance of that.

My problem is slightly different than yours, in that I'm not out of town (which makes PLAYING impossible), I'm just busy (which makes playing for any length of time, sometimes, impossible). In today's case, it turns out not to be a huge deal; the first mission is less than 10 minutes, start to finish, and the second is (by design) less than 4 minutes, total. The added pieces aren't time-gated (that is; once you have the fusion core, the stuff you need to do to charge it is available at any time, not limited to today), so if time were SUPER-tight, I'd have needed 15 minutes or so to get the important stuff done.

That said, sometimes even 15 minutes (or 2 minutes, what you might need to log in and find Xur on a weekend) is simply not available... and when it's not, you lose. Yeah, it's a temporary loss; you can always do whatever it is the next time it comes around.... unless you're busy THEN, too.

I dunno. I like it, because it's cool to have stuff like this. (Last night's mission was SUPERB. I really enjoyed it.) But I don't like it, because I miss stuff sometimes. Doesn't fit comfortably with my 'casual gamer' persona. ;)

What Claude, Beorn, Blacktiger and everyone else has said, but with the added note that even with a flexible schedule, I don't always like the feeling: "Crap, I need to go play Destiny even if I'm not in the mood!"

Timed events are awesome, and I love how living it makes the game feel, but it would be cool if there were more ways like Cody described to follow up on the events - at least the ones that don't require a large population like the Iron Banner.

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This so hard.

I was perfectly able to play Destiny last night. I just didn't want to, so I didn't. So I missed out. Hopefully it'll come back around soon.

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This so hard.

I was perfectly able to play Destiny last night. I just didn't want to, so I didn't. So I missed out. Hopefully it'll come back around soon.

Is it actually gone already? Is it time-zone sensitive? It is still showing up on my screen, I thought it would until reset time.

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This so hard.

I was perfectly able to play Destiny last night. I just didn't want to, so I didn't. So I missed out. Hopefully it'll come back around soon.

Is it actually gone already? Is it time-zone sensitive? It is still showing up on my screen, I thought it would until reset time.

Yes, it's still available, I played it tonight.

I was referring to last night's Paradox mission with the Ghosts and and alternate ending. Which doesn't matter as much today's mission, but the point still stands. I should have been more clear.

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I share many of your feelings. I've mentioned may lack of available time enough times.

I don't like "missing out" on content, because, well, I really enjoy Destiny! It bums me out to think I might miss out on some part of my favorite Destiny experiences - namely PvE missions that bring me deeper into the story and lore - just because I wasn't available when it was. That's a tough pill to swallow.

I suppose PvP players have always felt this conflict if they missed Iron Banner, but at least that lasts a full week, enabling more players to participate.

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Beorn, you ignorant slut.

I have it on good authority that you can play Destiny anytime and anywhere you wish thanks to advanced technology that I am not 100% certain you didn't steal. I seem to recall you having... what was it... oh yes, this:

A USB-powered portable HDMI display. GAEMS M115 Not pictured, the XB1 under my seat and the iphone tethering.

How do you feel about time sensitive activities?! Is this even a question? You are ~~Elastagirl~~ Beorn! Play! Win! And msg me when you get done, I enjoy our chats.

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Heh, great memory! I did drag my Xbox One along with me on that trip, but once was enough. That thing is just too bulky! I do, however, have my PS4 with me on this trip (it's a lot more portable), but I'm working long days and don't have the time to do anything of consequence for these events. I've mostly been playing a story mission and maybe a Crucible match before bed when I can. :-P

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Heh, great memory! I did drag my Xbox One along with me on that trip, but once was enough. That thing is just too bulky! I do, however, have my PS4 with me on this trip (it's a lot more portable), but I'm working long days and don't have the time to do anything of consequence for these events. I've mostly been playing a story mission and maybe a Crucible match before bed when I can. :-P

As Claude said, this particular event did not take long. Then again, I did only the first mission. Maybe I can't do the rest until it shows up again?

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On the one hand, I enjoy many of these limited time events because they focus the community. When an activity is held within a certain window, it makes it easier to find teammates to run the activity with because many players are prioritizing it. But as others have already pointed out, it totally sucks for those who aren't able to play during those windows. For things like the Black Spindle daily heroic, the obvious solution is to have it return on different days of the week. If it only ever comes back on Wednesdays, that pretty much screws over players who's schedules don't allow them to play on Wednesdays. Trials and Iron Banner are a bit of a different issue, but at least they are multi-day events. Many players are able to spend some time participating, even if it's not as much time as they'd like.

As far as the sleeper stimulant quest, several of the steps can only be completed solo. What if Bungie let players complete those parts of the quest whenever they like, and only put time constraints on the group portions?

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A schedule of upcoming missions would be nice instead having to scramble that day to find someone to help beat a hard mission.

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A schedule of upcoming missions would be nice instead having to scramble that day to find someone to help beat a hard mission.

Even if they want to keep some of the mystery, having a schedule sharing that "something" is happening on that day would be nice.

For example "Thursday 10/8/2015: Get ready to explore a new path with the daily"

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I fell asleep super early (for me. 11pm-ish) after a meal with the missus, but luckily woke up at about 1am. I saw that it was a limited time event and hopped online. I would have been really annoyed if I'd missed it because I went to bed at a reasonable time for once.

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I've been saying this to my IRL friends for a week or two now. I just don't have the time to keep up with everyone, and that is a bit disheartening. I may find myself drifting more toward Halo if it turns out to be a fun one to play.

I just don't like feeling like my games are a chore; I have enough chores as it is.

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Reading through this thread this morning, a funny thing strikes me:

TTK is the first almost-universally-acclaimed Destiny release... and it's also the first Destiny release that consistently (and relatively often) violates one of the first principles Bungie listed as goals for Destiny, back in February 2013. (That was long before whatever bad stuff happened in 2014, long before any major changes in vision - so it's something that could be considered a driving goal for the project.)

Destiny was supposed to be something you could play in bite-size pieces, when you had time, without feeling like you were missing out. (When they began incorporating MMO-like features, that was one of their biggest concerns.)

Up to now, for the most part, it has been. (Yeah, there were timed events - but they lasted a week, or they lasted a weekend (Trials), or whatever. They were RARELY (if ever?) limited to a single 24 hour period. I think the only exception I can think of happened during the Beta (you could only visit the moon on the last day). And even if you missed them, you got content LIKE them in regular gameplay - there was plenty of regular Crucible for folks who didn't like the hectic pace of IB, there's a less stressful Elimination playlist for folks who can't stomach Trials.)

For the past year, folks have played a lot - but they've also griped a lot. Many of those gripes have been wiped out (or at least mitigated) by TTK... but now we have this new mechanic (timed one-day events) that actually adds a ton of interesting stuff to the base content... at the cost of a founding pillar of the game.

I'm not sure it's a make-or-break problem - I was just struck by it today.

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Reading through this thread, I also thought of that first vidoc where he got the iPhone messge that said "Venus is looking awesome tonight!"

That tiny little bit never made sense with Destiny Year One, but makes sense for these kind of things: The Daily looks awesome today!

Unrelated, but I'm struck by how many of these topics in this thread and some other recent ones I have NO IDEA what people are talking about. Because I haven't been Keeping Up With The Joneses.

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On the other hand I went a frustrating 10ish months unable to obtain Red Death no matter what I did or how much I played. Did everything as right as possible, played the right modes, etc and simply couldn't luck into the item I wanted. Now, we have repeating daily missions with clear steps that guarantee powerful rare items.

Man, I wish things had been like this a year ago!

Can't get on one night, or week, or month to obtain something? Yeah, it can be frustrating, but things have been a lot worse!

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Can't get on one night, or week, or month to obtain something? Yeah, it can be frustrating, but things have been a lot worse!

Which is why I said I didn't think it was a game-breaker. It's just interesting that they needed to drop one of the founding pillars in order to make this happen.

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Now, I am in the minority on this forum, I know. I think Destiny on launch was really good, and the majority of changes, with obvious exceptions like the extra story and stuff, have made the game less enjoyable for me. Again, still the best game of my life, but it's been progressively moving towards MMOness, IMO.

Many vocal players have suggested these changes. I think most of them have been a net gain for the community at large. The problem was that people were playing and treating the game like an MMO, so Bungie had to change the game to make the players feel better in it. They made the raid encounters feel very gamey, because complex puzzles are what the MMO crowd wanted. They wanted loot drops from bosses. That's what they got.

Overall, it's probably better that Bingle moved out of MMO denial and embraced their game, but for those of us who played it like Halo with bounties, we now miss out on some stuff. We are small in number I think.

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Overall, it's probably better that Bingle moved out of MMO denial and embraced their game, but for those of us who played it like Halo with bounties, we now miss out on some stuff. We are small in number I think.

TTK feels much less like an MMO. There is largely no grinding, and the missions and quests flow nicely from one to the next culminating in the raid. It feels more like a traditional FPS than ever. It is a huge improvement. I know people don't like me saying this, but MMO is simply a bad genre. The closer to FPS/RPG Destiny gets, the better. And TTK took it closer.

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Overall, it's probably better that Bingle moved out of MMO denial and embraced their game, but for those of us who played it like Halo with bounties, we now miss out on some stuff. We are small in number I think.

TTK feels much less like an MMO. There is largely no grinding, and the missions and quests flow nicely from one to the next culminating in the raid. It feels more like a traditional FPS than ever. It is a huge improvement. I know people don't like me saying this, but MMO is simply a bad genre. The closer to FPS/RPG Destiny gets, the better. And TTK took it closer.

It feels like an MMO without the grind to me. The original game had a grind for materials, yes, but the rest of it was only grindy if you played it that way.

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Can't get on one night, or week, or month to obtain something? Yeah, it can be frustrating, but things have been a lot worse!

Which is why I said I didn't think it was a game-breaker. It's just interesting that they needed to drop one of the founding pillars in order to make this happen.

A lot of pillars are falling. Their original business model of selling the game plus DLC packs and expansions has already been modified after only a year.

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Reading through this thread this morning, a funny thing strikes me:

TTK is the first almost-universally-acclaimed Destiny release... and it's also the first Destiny release that consistently (and relatively often) violates one of the first principles Bungie listed as goals for Destiny, back in February 2013. (That was long before whatever bad stuff happened in 2014, long before any major changes in vision - so it's something that could be considered a driving goal for the project.)

Destiny was supposed to be something you could play in bite-size pieces, when you had time, without feeling like you were missing out. (When they began incorporating MMO-like features, that was one of their biggest concerns.)

Up to now, for the most part, it has been. (Yeah, there were timed events - but they lasted a week, or they lasted a weekend (Trials), or whatever. They were RARELY (if ever?) limited to a single 24 hour period. I think the only exception I can think of happened during the Beta (you could only visit the moon on the last day). And even if you missed them, you got content LIKE them in regular gameplay - there was plenty of regular Crucible for folks who didn't like the hectic pace of IB, there's a less stressful Elimination playlist for folks who can't stomach Trials.)

For the past year, folks have played a lot - but they've also griped a lot. Many of those gripes have been wiped out (or at least mitigated) by TTK... but now we have this new mechanic (timed one-day events) that actually adds a ton of interesting stuff to the base content... at the cost of a founding pillar of the game.

I'm not sure it's a make-or-break problem - I was just struck by it today.

I've touched on this in my response to Beirn's OP, but I think these limited time events are at least partially done for practical reasons. With all of TTK's new quest lines and special versions of various strikes and missions, the player base is spread out across a huge range of activities. To me, limited-time windows for quests seems like a way to focus the community towards them so players can easily find others to play with (either organically or through matchmaking). Obviously, this system is causing a few new problems, but I think there is room for Bungie to tweet the way they roll out these events to allow everyone to experience them within a reasonable amount of time.

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I've touched on this in my response to Beirn's OP, but I think these limited time events are at least partially done for practical reasons. With all of TTK's new quest lines and special versions of various strikes and missions, the player base is spread out across a huge range of activities. To me, limited-time windows for quests seems like a way to focus the community towards them so players can easily find others to play with (either organically or through matchmaking). Obviously, this system is causing a few new problems, but I think there is room for Bungie to tweet the way they roll out these events to allow everyone to experience them within a reasonable amount of time.

If matchmaking were completely removed (except for crucible), and every single activity has to be done with a fireteam you know, similar to Raids, then I have a feeling there'd be no need for these timed events. It seems to me that matchmaking has such a huge negative impact on the game:

1. Strike playlists designed to be played repeatedly.
2. People quitting out of strikes, or running through as fast as possible to just get loot.
3. Levels designed to facilitate seamless matchmaking rather than a compelling play space.

If I think back on all of the best times I've had with Destiny, exactly zero were with a matchmade party. Literally everything that's the most enjoyable has either been solo, or with a fireteam.

If there were no matchmaking, you'd have to find friends with whom to play the game, and you'd do the quests together and play as a group. They could design the game so that there is lots of stuff that can be done solo or with a fireteam, yet have a bunch of the cool stuff require a group. If you are playing and your group isn't, you hit up the solo stuff. When your group gets together, you hit the group stuff. There'd be no need to time things so everybody does them at once in order to facilitate matchmaking. You organize yourself when you and your friends are ready. The Thorn strike didn't have it, and it was fine!

I'm not sure a game has ever tried to be primarily co-operative without matchmaking, and there would be some resistance, but it might end up being a better experience. It would certainly be less repetitive.

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If I think back on all of the best times I've had with Destiny, exactly zero were with a matchmade party. Literally everything that's the most enjoyable has either been solo, or with a fireteam.

We were talking about matchmaking in videogames on the most recent RUL Podcast (should get posted today or tomorrow), and that got my brain going a bit. We were talking about games like Evolve and Rainbow 6 Siege, and how playing with randoms through matchmaking almost always has a negative impact on your experience. I mentioned that there is an interesting correlation between Destiny's most praised activites (raids, trials, nightfalls) and lack of matchmaking. When I find myself getting frustrated at Destiny, it is almost always due to matchmaking: getting matched into unfair teams, getting thrown on to a losing team half way through a game, teammates quitting out of strikes or not paying attention, etc. Still, I kept going back at myself and saying "of course the game must have matchmaking"...

... but what if it didn't? Is matchmaking as 100% required as we tend to assume it is?

To be clear, I'm not saying we should get rid of matchmaking. I'm just saying, maybe it isn't always the best way to go. I know 3 people who still play Evolve, and all 3 of them say playing with randoms kills the game. And the more I think about it, the more I realize that I never want to play fully matchmade activities in Destiny. I do it because it is the only way to play certain missions or gamemodes.

On the other side of the coin, there are some overwhelming facts that support the inclusion of matchmaking. Not everyone has a friends list full of people playing the same game all the time. Many people have inconsistent or unpredictable schedules that make it difficult to set up events with friends in advance. And for many, many people, they just don't want to spend the time thinking about this stuff in advance. They want to sit down and play whenever they feel like it and jump in to whatever activity they want. If matchmaking was removed from Destiny, the truth is that most people wouldn't play it. Just look at the PSN trophy data; as of today, only 23% of Destiny players have completed a raid. By omitting matchmaking from any specific activity, you chop off 3/4 of your player base.

This got me to thinking about Destiny in a bit of a different way. What elements of the game are made better by matchmaking? In my opinion, there are 2 places: The tower, and patrol. Hear me out: in neither of these activities is matchmaking crucial, per say. But I think Bungie has begun to scratch the surface of a giant ball of untapped potential in terms of ways to help people play together other than typical matchmaking. Seeing other players in patrol is often inconsequential, but it has also lead to some of my favorite moments in Destiny. The convergence of patrol events and the way that can pull players into working together on the fly is something special, with loads of room to be expanded upon.

And then there's the tower. We've had plenty of conversations here at DBO about ways the Tower could function as an in-game LFG hub. I think the current limit of 16 players per instance is a real barrier to these ideas... hopefully that's something bungie will be able to push further once last-gen consoles are out of the equation. Imagine a much larger social space with dozens of players running around, gathering in various meeting areas to put together groups and go off and play together. Yes, that would be more "work" than hitting a button and automatically being thrown together. But that "work" is the difference between feeling remotely connected to the people you play with vs just a list of names. If we have to put in a couple minutes of time to find a group to play with, we're less likely to ditch them mid-game because things aren't going perfectly. The focus becomes playing with people, rather than just playing along side other people.

I know, I'm probably insane. But maybe there is something to this. Maybe there is a way for Destiny to move forward without traditional matchmaking?

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On the other side of the coin, there are some overwhelming facts that support the inclusion of matchmaking. Not everyone has a friends list full of people playing the same game all the time. Many people have inconsistent or unpredictable schedules that make it difficult to set up events with friends in advance. And for many, many people, they just don't want to spend the time thinking about this stuff in advance. They want to sit down and play whenever they feel like it and jump in to whatever activity they want. If matchmaking was removed from Destiny, the truth is that most people wouldn't play it. Just look at the PSN trophy data; as of today, only 23% of Destiny players have completed a raid. By omitting matchmaking from any specific activity, you chop off 3/4 of your player base.

This could all be mitigated by designing Destiny with no RNG loot, so that things do not have to be replayed over and over. If you only ever have to do one raid to get what you want, it makes organizing one easier.

I know, I'm probably insane. But maybe there is something to this. Maybe there is a way for Destiny to move forward without traditional matchmaking?

Bungie is probably not going to go this route. I think a co-op FPS/RPG would be very very cool, but it would require dedication or most likely real life friends in order to accomplish.

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On the other side of the coin, there are some overwhelming facts that support the inclusion of matchmaking. Not everyone has a friends list full of people playing the same game all the time. Many people have inconsistent or unpredictable schedules that make it difficult to set up events with friends in advance. And for many, many people, they just don't want to spend the time thinking about this stuff in advance. They want to sit down and play whenever they feel like it and jump in to whatever activity they want. If matchmaking was removed from Destiny, the truth is that most people wouldn't play it. Just look at the PSN trophy data; as of today, only 23% of Destiny players have completed a raid. By omitting matchmaking from any specific activity, you chop off 3/4 of your player base.

This could all be mitigated by designing Destiny with no RNG loot, so that things do not have to be replayed over and over. If you only ever have to do one raid to get what you want, it makes organizing one easier.

I'm going to disagree with you pretty solidly, here. If the game had no loot at all, it would be EVEN HARDER to get random, non-matchmade groups together to do the activities.

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As someone who plays solo 90% of the time, I almost only play matchmade activities and actually wish Bungie added more matchmaking as an option to stuff like Nightfall and higher difficulty PoE - modes I don't play regularly because of the current requirement of socializing. While I've had a blast doing a few Raids with DBO, it's an exception to a medium I usually use as a cool down from extroversion.

The games you and Cody are describing sound cool, but it wouldn't be something I play anywhere near as often as Destiny.

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As someone who plays solo 90% of the time, I almost only play matchmade activities and actually wish Bungie added more matchmaking as an option to stuff like Nightfall and higher difficulty PoE - modes I don't play regularly because of the current requirement of socializing. While I've had a blast doing a few Raids with DBO, it's an exception to a medium I usually use as a cool down from extroversion.

I'm just thinking out loud here, so this might be a terrible idea. I guess I'll start with a question:

When you play match made gametypes, does playing with randoms make the experience more enjoyable, or does it just make it possible?

I've often wished Nightfalls had matchmaking, but I'm now starting to think that what I really want is for the Nightfalls to scale so I could more realistically run them solo if none of my friends are around.

I guess in my head, I'm still "playing alone" when I do a match made activity... There are just these other people involved who tend to detract more often than add anything meaningful to the experience. I think, in those cases, I'd rather be really alone and just have the mission or strike scale to suit 1 player rather than 3.

The games you and Cody are describing sound cool, but it wouldn't be something I play anywhere near as often as Destiny.

I'm not totally sure I would play it either, lol. I'm just letting my imagination wander :)

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When you play match made gametypes, does playing with randoms make the experience more enjoyable, or does it just make it possible?

I've often wished Nightfalls had matchmaking, but I'm now starting to think that what I really want is for the Nightfalls to scale so I could more realistically run them solo if none of my friends are around.

I guess in my head, I'm still "playing alone" when I do a match made activity... There are just these other people involved who tend to detract more often than add anything meaningful to the experience. I think, in those cases, I'd rather be really alone and just have the mission or strike scale to suit 1 player rather than 3.

To answer your question, I'd say both, and sometimes one or the other. Depends on the mode.

Higher difficulty PoE is more about just making it possible. I like the arena mode a lot but I approach it more like a marathon, like an arcade game. I'd do it alone if I could, but the way it's built makes it hard to do solo (even though you can technically try).

With Strikes, and Patrols, and what I'd call more story-based, 'adventurous' activities, I actually find random Guardians joining me more immersive and exciting than when I'm doing them solo. I always thought Halo campaigns were the funnest when I was fighting alongside the AI marines in epic battles. Destiny doesn't have that exactly but the random, matchmade Guardians who fill that void are essentially sentient, high-skilled marines in comparison. This means I have a partner to work with as well as a chance to observe their own cool gameplay moments. Sometimes particular challenges or incidents combined with an emote can lead to a funny moment. It's a Noble team that's helpful ALL the time rather than on occasion. :)

Sure, all of this can be taken to a greater impact with a real, personalized team, but, for someone like me, that has its own cost and I'm not always in the mood to combine true socializing and gaming. This isn't a sardonic hatred for humans or something. Even when I'm having a blast with friends or family, it wears me out and once my super meter is depleted, I have to take a break and recharge. Games often fulfill that recharging space. Every day after middle and high school, I'd go home and play a video game for an hour and afterwards, I could be sociable and inviting again because I had that zone-out meditation.

Destiny's matchmaking gives me a happy medium in that respect. In a perfect world I'd love for every activity to have solo, fireteam, and matchmaking avenues, and scale down or up in difficulty accordingly, but the production cost and the constraints of the matchmaking candidate pool limit that, not to mention the difficulty of making that work with a designer's intentions like in a Raid where it is built and optimized for teamwork (and while I don't Raid often, I love that that kind of gameplay exists as an option).

The games you and Cody are describing sound cool, but it wouldn't be something I play anywhere near as often as Destiny.

I'm not totally sure I would play it either, lol. I'm just letting my imagination wander :)

I think it would be a game I'd play when I was younger and when I had friends who could just stop by and play in the ocean of Silent Cartographer for 3 hours. :)

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I think I have a different experience and relationship with matchmaking than a lot of people at DBO.

I like turning on Destiny whenever it strikes me, loading up an activity, and just playing. Often I specifically don't want to join a group and chat or even plan to join a group, because to me that is social and potentially stressful and I'm playing a game to hibernate and relax. Sometimes I just want to drink and shoot the virtual things. I don't like to schedule game stuff way in advance because I prioritize IRL activities over game activities and I want to meet my friends whenever they want without leaving you virtual people in the lurch.

I was overjoyed when Heroic strikes went to matchmaking, because it meant I could easily do Heroic strikes every week without having to solo the mission, schedule something on FTB, or relying on people from LFG tools. But when the feature hit, I remember reading a LOT of complaints on here. I had maybe 2 bad experiences with randoms during Heroic strikes out of dozens of runs.

I haven't done the new raid because.. A variety of reasons; I was out of town when it launched and then I got injured pretty badly when I got back in town. I couldn't talk for a few days. I could barely stay conscious for a week and a half.

What I'm saying is this: People on this fan-forum are the 1%; they are people who want to go out of their way to arrange things so they can be the best and do the best things.

Other people don't want that. Matchmaking is for the 99%.

The way I see it, this game handles both groups pretty well.

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What I'm saying is this: People on this fan-forum are the 1%; they are people who want to go out of their way to arrange things so they can be the best and do the best things.

Other people don't want that. Matchmaking is for the 99%.

The way I see it, this game handles both groups pretty well.

Very well said. As I said in my post, matchmaking makes the game inviting for many people to play in a way that games without matchmaking aren't. I guess what I'm daydreaming about is "is there a better way to group people together than the typically hoppers?". I like to think about this stuff because I think Destiny is just on the edge of breaking some really interesting ground in that regard.

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matchmaking makes the game inviting for many people to play in a way that games without matchmaking aren't.

Totally agreed. I also liked your point that Patrol and Tower are two really interesting matchmaking scenarios.

I've said similar things before, but I think running into randoms on patrol is so cool. I'm not even sure why. In some ways it's mundane but it has some transformative power: Yeah, I'm here trying to get my 30 headshots or whatever, so is this guy/girl, and we came together to defend the warsat.

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Randomly going to the tower and waving at Dogcow, who isn't in my fireteam, is a really fun thing to do.

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I'm 1000s of miles from Dogcow (I think) and have still ended up in his tower before. Really weird.

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Destiny was supposed to be something you could play in bite-size pieces, when you had time, without feeling like you were missing out.

That's exactly what I complained about when I talked about how the primary way to earn marks was with the daily activities. Don't play that day, and you lose out on 30 marks. I think the only reason it wasn't a huge deal in the original release was because the daily missions didn't really award anything worthwhile.

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Destiny was supposed to be something you could play in bite-size pieces, when you had time, without feeling like you were missing out.

That's exactly what I complained about when I talked about how the primary way to earn marks was with the daily activities. Don't play that day, and you lose out on 30 marks. I think the only reason it wasn't a huge deal in the original release was because the daily missions didn't really award anything worthwhile.

You're not missing out, though. Your problem was treating it like a race.

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Destiny was supposed to be something you could play in bite-size pieces, when you had time, without feeling like you were missing out.

That's exactly what I complained about when I talked about how the primary way to earn marks was with the daily activities. Don't play that day, and you lose out on 30 marks. I think the only reason it wasn't a huge deal in the original release was because the daily missions didn't really award anything worthwhile.

You're not missing out, though. Your problem was treating it like a race.

You literally are missing out. Those marks are gone and cannot be earned. Play 5 days a week and you have 150 marks. Play one, and you have 30. That means one person can buy a gun and one can't.

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Destiny was supposed to be something you could play in bite-size pieces, when you had time, without feeling like you were missing out.

That's exactly what I complained about when I talked about how the primary way to earn marks was with the daily activities. Don't play that day, and you lose out on 30 marks. I think the only reason it wasn't a huge deal in the original release was because the daily missions didn't really award anything worthwhile.

You're not missing out, though. Your problem was treating it like a race.

You literally are missing out. Those marks are gone and cannot be earned. Play 5 days a week and you have 150 marks. Play one, and you have 30. That means one person can buy a gun and one can't.

Read what Kermit wrote again.

It's not a race.

The person who can buy a gun can now go do something with that gun he couldn't do before.

The person without it couldn't do whatever the new thing is anyway, BECAUSE HE HASN'T PLAYED LONG ENOUGH TO RANK UP. Once he's played long enough to earn 150 marks (even if it takes him a month), he can buy that gun - and do exactly the same activity player 1 was doing a month ago.

It's not a race. Almost nothing goes away. Even the timed stuff comes back around.

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The person without it couldn't do whatever the new thing is anyway, BECAUSE HE HASN'T PLAYED LONG ENOUGH TO RANK UP. Once he's played long enough to earn 150 marks (even if it takes him a month), he can buy that gun - and do exactly the same activity player 1 was doing a month ago.

This is not correct. Because by then the other player will have been able to buy 5 guns. Eventually a new expansion drops, and things change, and you are behind and always have been. You can't 'buy 5 vanguard guns' because by the time you can, the guns change. So no, you can;t have the same experience but just slower. That only works if resources are limited and finite, and the game gets no updates.

Strange coins are hard to earn in TTK. They were easy to earn before. If you did the weekly, you got 27 each week guaranteed. Going into TTK, are you going to say someone who has 1200 strange coins is going to have the same experience as someone with 100?

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Strange coins are hard to earn in TTK. They were easy to earn before. If you did the weekly, you got 27 each week guaranteed. Going into TTK, are you going to say someone who has 1200 strange coins is going to have the same experience as someone with 100?

[Not sarcastic] Really? I used to have an average of 15-30 Strange Coins at a time. After TTK, I'm now at 90 (which is overflowing to me) without having to change the activities I like to play.

As someone who doesn't play every day and doesn't consider it a race, I'm also sifting through a lot of marks right now and feel like buying a purple gun at the Tower is an actual possibility now where as before it didn't feel like it.

Heh, I think the always-behind player you're describing is a great description of me - except I actually prefer being the underdog. Now that my light is getting up there, I actually equip worse gear for easier modes to keep the difficulty fun. :)

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The person without it couldn't do whatever the new thing is anyway, BECAUSE HE HASN'T PLAYED LONG ENOUGH TO RANK UP. Once he's played long enough to earn 150 marks (even if it takes him a month), he can buy that gun - and do exactly the same activity player 1 was doing a month ago.

This is not correct. Because by then the other player will have been able to buy 5 guns. Eventually a new expansion drops, and things change, and you are behind and always have been. You can't 'buy 5 vanguard guns' because by the time you can, the guns change. So no, you can;t have the same experience but just slower. That only works if resources are limited and finite, and the game gets no updates.

I don't buy this. (Well, the fact that stock rotates, sure. The idea that you're 'behind' if you take longer to get guns? Pfft.

Strange coins are hard to earn in TTK. They were easy to earn before. If you did the weekly, you got 27 each week guaranteed. Going into TTK, are you going to say someone who has 1200 strange coins is going to have the same experience as someone with 100?

Wait, what?

I earn almost 100 strange coins a week since TTK dropped. (Between 50 and 100 every week, usually on the high side. For example, I burned every coin I had on Saturday last week - and I've got 76 right now.) I earned a quarter of that (and had to play on 3 characters to even do that!) before TTK. I have no idea what you're talking about when you say it's harder.

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The person without it couldn't do whatever the new thing is anyway, BECAUSE HE HASN'T PLAYED LONG ENOUGH TO RANK UP. Once he's played long enough to earn 150 marks (even if it takes him a month), he can buy that gun - and do exactly the same activity player 1 was doing a month ago.

This is not correct. Because by then the other player will have been able to buy 5 guns. Eventually a new expansion drops, and things change, and you are behind and always have been. You can't 'buy 5 vanguard guns' because by the time you can, the guns change. So no, you can;t have the same experience but just slower. That only works if resources are limited and finite, and the game gets no updates.

I don't buy this. (Well, the fact that stock rotates, sure. The idea that you're 'behind' if you take longer to get guns? Pfft.

Strange coins are hard to earn in TTK. They were easy to earn before. If you did the weekly, you got 27 each week guaranteed. Going into TTK, are you going to say someone who has 1200 strange coins is going to have the same experience as someone with 100?

Wait, what?

I earn almost 100 strange coins a week since TTK dropped. (Between 50 and 100 every week, usually on the high side. For example, I burned every coin I had on Saturday last week - and I've got 76 right now.) I earned a quarter of that (and had to play on 3 characters to even do that!) before TTK. I have no idea what you're talking about when you say it's harder.

Please share your secret. I get like 5 or 6 a week, usually from engram decoding.

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I earn almost 100 strange coins a week since TTK dropped. (Between 50 and 100 every week, usually on the high side. For example, I burned every coin I had on Saturday last week - and I've got 76 right now.) I earned a quarter of that (and had to play on 3 characters to even do that!) before TTK. I have no idea what you're talking about when you say it's harder.

Please share your secret. I get like 5 or 6 a week, usually from engram decoding.

I just play the game. They drop everywhere. I got 6 in 2 games of Crucible last night. I get 5 every time something ranks up (Vanguard, Crucible, Faction, Eris, Queen) - I fill up on bounties every time I play (I don't even look at them any more, I just get them all), and turn them in as I finish them. I'm ranking SOMETHING almost every day. (In the past, I picked bounties I thought I could finish, and then went out and did stuff to finish them. Now, we can hold more, and they're more general; I grab EVERYTHING. If, at the end of the day, I've got one that hasn't been touched, I'll just abandon it - but for the most part, they just fill up as I play.)

Even bosses drop them.

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Yeah. I think marks / hour played is a more valid measure than marks / absolute hours. It isn't a race... Except Destiny is multiplayer and that second player might not be able to play with the first one because he is "weeks behind." I've never done a Raid on day one. Mostly because I didn't want to rush to get there but also because I was not a high enough level on each Day One.

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Destiny was supposed to be something you could play in bite-size pieces, when you had time, without feeling like you were missing out.

That's exactly what I complained about when I talked about how the primary way to earn marks was with the daily activities. Don't play that day, and you lose out on 30 marks. I think the only reason it wasn't a huge deal in the original release was because the daily missions didn't really award anything worthwhile.

You're not missing out, though. Your problem was treating it like a race.

You literally are missing out. Those marks are gone and cannot be earned. Play 5 days a week and you have 150 marks. Play one, and you have 30. That means one person can buy a gun and one can't.

Read what Kermit wrote again.

It's not a race.

The person who can buy a gun can now go do something with that gun he couldn't do before.

The person without it couldn't do whatever the new thing is anyway, BECAUSE HE HASN'T PLAYED LONG ENOUGH TO RANK UP. Once he's played long enough to earn 150 marks (even if it takes him a month), he can buy that gun - and do exactly the same activity player 1 was doing a month ago.

It's not a race. Almost nothing goes away. Even the timed stuff comes back around.

I think this conversation changes a bit if we shift the focus to PvP instead of PvE.

When I think about PvE Destiny, I completely agree with you. Buying a new gun doesn't have a drastic impact on the game, except for giving me a new toy to play with and enjoy.

But PvP is a different story, if you like to play it competitively. Part of being successful in the crucible is having the right tool for the job. A player who earns more marks and can buy more guns will have a wider selection of tools. They can decide going in to each game which guns will work best, and change on the fly if they need to. If I don't have a similar selection of tools, I'm at a disadvantage.

Stuff like this only really matters to some competitive players, but it does matter :)

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But PvP is a different story, if you like to play it competitively. Part of being successful in the crucible is having the right tool for the job. A player who earns more marks and can buy more guns will have a wider selection of tools. They can decide going in to each game which guns will work best, and change on the fly if they need to. If I don't have a similar selection of tools, I'm at a disadvantage.

Stuff like this only really matters to some competitive players, but it does matter :)

Okay, I already know how you'd answer this question, but I also know that if I set up a poll right now, you'd be in a TINY minority:

How often do you change loadouts in PvP?

The answer, for the overwhelming majority of Destiny players (after they've reached a certain point), is "almost never". Folks find their go-to guns, and they use them. Oh, maybe they'll swap out a Sniper for a Shotgun if they're dropping onto a close-quarters map... but most people stick with what works for them.

Yes, it might take longer to get to "what works for them" if they don't play as often - but if it takes longer, it's because THEY'RE NOT TREATING IT LIKE A RACE.

And regardless of whether they get there on Week 2 (for you super-competitive people) or Week 30 (folks like Levi, maybe), once they get there, they've got their guns, and they can compete at whatever level they were going to compete at.

Very, very few people do as much gun-changing in PvP as you do.

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And regardless of whether they get there on Week 2 (for you super-competitive people) or Week 30 (folks like Levi, maybe), once they get there, they've got their guns, and they can compete at whatever level they were going to compete at.

Very, very few people do as much gun-changing in PvP as you do.

STOP READING MY BRAIN! ... My primary weapon in Crucible is a blue handcannon from the launch game. :p

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- No text -

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It has maximum impact, I'm used to the handling, and it looks cool! Don't judge me!!!

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Very, very few people do as much gun-changing in PvP as you do.

Totally agree. I wasn't trying to imply anything different. I'm just saying that for me, and the few who play closer to the way I do, earning currencies quickly has practical benefits.

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Destiny was supposed to be something you could play in bite-size pieces, when you had time, without feeling like you were missing out.

That's exactly what I complained about when I talked about how the primary way to earn marks was with the daily activities. Don't play that day, and you lose out on 30 marks. I think the only reason it wasn't a huge deal in the original release was because the daily missions didn't really award anything worthwhile.

You're not missing out, though. Your problem was treating it like a race.

You literally are missing out. Those marks are gone and cannot be earned. Play 5 days a week and you have 150 marks. Play one, and you have 30. That means one person can buy a gun and one can't.

Read what Kermit wrote again.

It's not a race.

The person who can buy a gun can now go do something with that gun he couldn't do before.

The person without it couldn't do whatever the new thing is anyway, BECAUSE HE HASN'T PLAYED LONG ENOUGH TO RANK UP. Once he's played long enough to earn 150 marks (even if it takes him a month), he can buy that gun - and do exactly the same activity player 1 was doing a month ago.

It's not a race. Almost nothing goes away. Even the timed stuff comes back around.

While I agree with you for the most part, my irritation with the system comes from the fact that the "Time Played To Rank Up" metric is measured not by amount of time played, but amount of days logged in. I'm more likely to have 5 hours on the weekend to play than one hour a day each week day, and yet while I'd be spending the same amount of hours, I only end up with 2/5 of the resources as the weekday player. Something is broken there, and for me personally, it is a bit of a dealbreaker.

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I think it's as simple as this: people play the game a hell of a lot more than Bungie thought they would, and they've made efforts to make it more interesting on a daily and weekly basis.

There's also this interesting dynamic between fans wanting items and activities that are unique (in other words, infrequent, inaccessible, and rare), but fans at the same time wanting easy access to things that are unique (making them not, uh, unique). Not pointing a finger at Beorn here. I think in many cases fans want both. I feel the tension in myself.

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It came out on Wednesday, but I didn't play it until Thursday. I got the drop, entered the codes, and did the timed mission.

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It came out on Wednesday, but I didn't play it until Thursday. I got the drop, entered the codes, and did the timed mission.

After you did the timed mission did you get a mission item with 5 nodes?

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i have this:

[image]

You can see my game history, I have two "classified" missions from yesterday, but none on wednesday.

http://destinytracker.com/destiny/games/1/4611686018429571115/2305843009216986310

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i have this:

You can see my game history, I have two "classified" missions from yesterday, but none on wednesday.

http://destinytracker.com/destiny/games/1/4611686018429571115/2305843009216986310

Yep that's it, now you need to finish The Archive mission on Venus, a Warsat on each location that has them (Earth, Moon, Mars) and dismantle a legendary or exotic heavy weapon. After you do that hover over that item in game and hit the button for repair and then hit A on all the nodes and it'll direct you to the Gunsmith.

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Cool. What I was wondering, was how people were saying that it was on Wednesday only, but I did it Thursday night.

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Cool. What I was wondering, was how people were saying that it was on Wednesday only, but I did it Thursday night.

Ooooh, haha. Then I have a follow up question. Did you login on Wednesday at all? I was trying to figure out if it unlocked for everyone that all four relics or if you had to at least login.

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Yeah, I did the daily mission, and some bounties on Wednesday. Maybe I only needed to be on, but not actually play it.

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Sounds like that's it.

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On Time-Sensitive Activities and Available Game Time (Destiny)

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