Sunbreaker vs. Golden Gun, an in-depth analysis

Sunbreaker:
7 shots
leaves DoT AoE on the ground per shot
Shots have marginal tracking
Gains health on kills
Has overshield
Has damage resistance
short activation animation (during which damage resistance is active)
all shots explode in a small area
shots cannot overpenetrate

Golden Gun:
Cries. A lot.

Okay, actually:

Golden Gun:
3 shots
No DoT component
no tracking component
no health gained on kills
no overshield
no damage resistance
long activation animation (still no damage resistance)
shots can explode in a small area
shots can overpenetrate

So it seems like Bungie thinks the Keyhole perk is grossly overpowered and can only be matched by all of the absurd piling on of disgustingly strong abilities on a Sunbreaker.

Something needs to be done. Sunbreakers are just insane. Playing the elimination game mode lately, if someone pops Sunbreaker, we RUN. It's the only super that you have absolutely no hope of fighting back against, even with another super. If it is not fixed before Iron Banner, I fully expect that the teams with the most Sunbreakers will win the majority of the time, and if it's not fixed before Trials, I fully expect 3 Sunbreaker teams to dominate the whole thing.

I'll add that Golden Gun also has been grossly underpowered since HoW. It can't kill same level red-health enemies with solar shields in one shot, and that's silly. It's not a "super" it's a pop the solar shields of that red guy who doesn't matter tool. It also can't kill a properly spec'd Sunsinger in one shot, and it can't kill a Sunbreaker of any spec in one shot. No other super is as gimped to use, easy to counter, and ineffective as golden gun. Every other super has the possibility of killing the entire enemy team, except for Golden Gun, which is capped at 3 shots. The explosions from GG aren't even big enough to guarantee damaging an enemy standing in the same capture zone as the one you killed with your super.

Sunbreaker needs major nerfing and GG needs some buffing, please.

locked

2437 views

I agree. You have to have absolute precision with golden gun to even do damage. By the time I get a shot to use it in crucible I either barely miss my shot or I get killed. Using it is a complete waste 90% of the time for me...of course I suck in general at crucible so that doesn't help.

locked

2144 views

I think there a couple changes that would make it Sunbreaker a lot less broken:

1. Non-direct hammers should NOT kill with a single hammer from splash damage (at least not at the ridiculous range they do right now).
2. Damage resistance should be lowered so that they die from a single golden gun shot, or a single high impact sniper rifle headshot.

Barring neither of those at the very least then they should not be able to get health back on a kill unless it's at least a melee kill.

locked

2130 views

I think there a couple changes that would make it Sunbreaker a lot less broken:

1. Non-direct hammers should NOT kill with a single hammer from splash damage (at least not at the ridiculous range they do right now).
2. Damage resistance should be lowered so that they die from a single golden gun shot, or a single high impact sniper rifle headshot.

Barring neither of those at the very least then they should not be able to get health back on a kill unless it's at least a melee kill.

I agree completely - these two changes would make things a lot better.

locked

2108 views

No other super is as gimped to use, easy to counter, and ineffective as golden gun. Every other super has the possibility of killing the entire enemy team, except for Golden Gun, which is capped at 3 shots.

My Defender Titan wound like a word with you. Ward of Dawn is the definition of easy to counter. Even Golden Gun beats it. ;)

But yes, Sunbreakers are a complete failure in terms of balance. I'm not so down on Golden Gun in the Crucible (except it should kill most everything with a single shot) since it is trading range and first strike capability for absolute number of kills. In PvE it almost certainly needs a damage boost. 2x or so, perhaps.

Really, I think the older classes need a refresh. Bladedancer just doesn't put out enough damage in PvE. Defender's non-super abilities are ALL tied to getting melee kills which becomes suicide in anything above base level missions to name two. Compare most of the old classes to a Sunbreaker or Stormcaller who can clear out multiple large groups of enemies and I just get a bit dismayed.

locked

2154 views

No other super is as gimped to use, easy to counter, and ineffective as golden gun. Every other super has the possibility of killing the entire enemy team, except for Golden Gun, which is capped at 3 shots.

My Defender Titan wound like a word with you. Ward of Dawn is the definition of easy to counter. Even Golden Gun beats it. ;)

But yes, Sunbreakers are a complete failure in terms of balance. I'm not so down on Golden Gun in the Crucible (except it should kill most everything with a single shot) since it is trading range and first strike capability for absolute number of kills. In PvE it almost certainly needs a damage boost. 2x or so, perhaps.

Really, I think the older classes need a refresh. Bladedancer just doesn't put out enough damage in PvE. Defender's non-super abilities are ALL tied to getting melee kills which becomes suicide in anything above base level missions to name two. Compare most of the old classes to a Sunbreaker or Stormcaller who can clear out multiple large groups of enemies and I just get a bit dismayed.

In PvP, Sunsinger's super is a little diminished, but remains a formidable "normal" fighter. In PvE, I can't stand playing as anything else.

Void walker in pvp is still pretty viable all around.

locked

2099 views

- No text -

locked

2080 views

First of all, great breakdown!

While I do think the Sunbreaker's super needs to be toned down, I also feel you being overly dismissive of Golden Gun in a few areas.

The Golden Gun's greatest advantages over Sunbreaker are speed and range. Your shots hit instantly, and from great distance. It is difficult to dodge sunbreaker hammers, but it is impossible to dodge a golden gun shot (assuming the hunter's aim is on point).

I agree that Sunbreaker's have unmatched stopping power when it comes to "who can wipe out the enemy team with the least difficulty), but I still lean towards a GG hunter for PvP. First of all, I find Hunters have the overall advantage in PvP thanks to their base perks and abilities.

On top of that, when it comes to Golden Gun vs Flaming Hammers in a head-to-head shootout, my Golden Gun wins every single time. Without fail, I am able to hide long enough to pop my super, jump around a corner (so I'm above the spot where the sunbreaker is expecting me to appear), and I pop him with my GG the moment I have line of sight. Worse case scenario, even if his hammer is in mid-air, heading straight for my face, I have time to fire my GG and trade kills.

In fact, I'm planning on using my GG Hunter in Trials specifically because I'm so good at shutting down Sunbreaker's with her, and I'm expecting to run in to A LOT of sunbreakers :)

locked

2161 views

First of all, great breakdown!

While I do think the Sunbreaker's super needs to be toned down, I also feel you being overly dismissive of Golden Gun in a few areas.

The Golden Gun's greatest advantages over Sunbreaker are speed and range. Your shots hit instantly, and from great distance. It is difficult to dodge sunbreaker hammers, but it is impossible to dodge a golden gun shot (assuming the hunter's aim is on point).

I agree that Sunbreaker's have unmatched stopping power when it comes to "who can wipe out the enemy team with the least difficulty), but I still lean towards a GG hunter for PvP. First of all, I find Hunters have the overall advantage in PvP thanks to their base perks and abilities.

On top of that, when it comes to Golden Gun vs Flaming Hammers in a head-to-head shootout, my Golden Gun wins every single time. Without fail, I am able to hide long enough to pop my super, jump around a corner (so I'm above the spot where the sunbreaker is expecting me to appear), and I pop him with my GG the moment I have line of sight. Worse case scenario, even if his hammer is in mid-air, heading straight for my face, I have time to fire my GG and trade kills.

In fact, I'm planning on using my GG Hunter in Trials specifically because I'm so good at shutting down Sunbreaker's with her, and I'm expecting to run in to A LOT of sunbreakers :)

Hammer Titans can survive Golden Gun shots, and kill you before you pop a second... It happens pretty consistently to me.
Sure, if they take any damage at all beforehand, you can drop them, but how often are people shooting at the Insta-healing Hammer guy coming at them?

locked

2132 views

In fact, I'm planning on using my GG Hunter in Trials specifically because I'm so good at shutting down Sunbreaker's with her, and I'm expecting to run in to A LOT of sunbreakers :)

Hammer Titans can survive Golden Gun shots, and kill you before you pop a second... It happens pretty consistently to me.
Sure, if they take any damage at all beforehand, you can drop them, but how often are people shooting at the Insta-healing Hammer guy coming at them?

I must be lucky, because I don't think I've ever needed to hit a Sunbreaker with 2 shots to take them down. I assume it's because they'd taken damage... or maybe over-penetrate makes a difference?

Worse case scenario, I'll use my nightstalker :)

locked

2112 views

In fact, I'm planning on using my GG Hunter in Trials specifically because I'm so good at shutting down Sunbreaker's with her, and I'm expecting to run in to A LOT of sunbreakers :)

Hammer Titans can survive Golden Gun shots, and kill you before you pop a second... It happens pretty consistently to me.
Sure, if they take any damage at all beforehand, you can drop them, but how often are people shooting at the Insta-healing Hammer guy coming at them?

I must be lucky, because I don't think I've ever needed to hit a Sunbreaker with 2 shots to take them down. I assume it's because they'd taken damage... or maybe over-penetrate makes a difference?

Worse case scenario, I'll use my nightstalker :)

You must be lucky b/c I can't think of a time where I haven't had to put 2 GG shots into a Sunbreaker. :)

- CC

locked

2109 views

- No text -

locked

2048 views

Hammer Titans can survive Golden Gun shots, and kill you before you pop a second... It happens pretty consistently to me.
Sure, if they take any damage at all beforehand, you can drop them, but how often are people shooting at the Insta-healing Hammer guy coming at them?

Yeah, I don't think that should be true. But at the same time, I also don't think any GGunner should be taking a hammer Titan at that range.

I don't know how you would make it fare. Because in my mind, GGunners should win at range and Breakers should win up close. But if GGunnners have one hit kills on Breakers than they would always win regardless of range.

locked

2104 views

Hammer Titans can survive Golden Gun shots, and kill you before you pop a second... It happens pretty consistently to me.

This can be mitigated by turning on Over The Horizon. The extra range on your golden gun means the damage dropoff is less. It's very significant. With it on, more often than not I one shot the Titan.

locked

2139 views

Hammer Titans can survive Golden Gun shots, and kill you before you pop a second... It happens pretty consistently to me.

This can be mitigated by turning on Over The Horizon. The extra range on your golden gun means the damage dropoff is less. It's very significant. With it on, more often than not I one shot the Titan.

If you bother to watch the linked clip, my shots against the Hammer Titan are at point blank range more often than not (three times in that one clip, even).
And it's not a latency issue or anything. They take the shot, and their health stays like that until they start to recover (assuming they don't have Cauterize).

Pretty much the only way that you can one-shot them is if they've taken damage right before you shoot them (again, assuming they aren't insta-cauterized), or if you have Celestial Nighthawk.

locked

2087 views

If you bother to watch the linked clip, my shots against the Hammer Titan are at point blank range more often than not (three times in that one clip, even).

I would if the site could load the clip without a database error.

Perhaps your opponent's Titan was built with Max armor. Perhaps this was compounded with a "increased armor when using a solar based subclass" perk. It's probably very variable. All I can tell you is that your experience doesn't match mine. Yes they sometimes live, but not really that often in my experience.

locked

2097 views

If you bother to watch the linked clip, my shots against the Hammer Titan are at point blank range more often than not (three times in that one clip, even).

I would if the site could load the clip without a database error.

Hopefully the NXE lets us upload to YouTube, but in the meantime,here's an alternate site.

Perhaps your opponent's Titan was built with Max armor. Perhaps this was compounded with a "increased armor when using a solar based subclass" perk. It's probably very variable. All I can tell you is that your experience doesn't match mine. Yes they sometimes live, but not really that often in my experience.

That's the thing. You more than likely were shooting someone who had already taken damage. This happens to me on both consoles, and yeah, if they have low armor, it's probably easy to bring them down with one shot, but you don't exactly see low-armor Titans every day...

locked

2103 views

I've had the same experience as Korny: I don't remember ever finishing off a Supered Sunbreaker in a single GG shot. They always have some health left, and then their homing are of effect death hammer finishes me off, and recharges their health.

locked

2083 views

Strikers can survive a point blank Golden Gun shot while using Fist of Havoc. Not sure if it requires max armor or that perk that makes them tougher, but the problem is not (always) Golden Gun's damage drop off.

locked

2100 views

While I agree with some aspects of what you're saying here, I do have a few things to point out that make the representation of your argument more extreme than it is.

First, Cauterize and Fire Keeper are currently, pending any new exotics, mutually exclusive, and the overshield drops if you exit the Sun Spot, so you're mobility is stunted. So you don't get an overshield with health regen. Second, do we have an actually comparison for activation animations? I'll give the damage reduction during the animation, but there is an implied proximity with Sunbreaker that Gunslinger doesn't have, and there are elements of the perk tree to support more distance (Deadeye and Over the Horizon, for example) when one is not focusing your nodes to the precision play. Also, it's not that hard to dodge hammers and have the hammer splash cover without harming you control the engagement and use the air advantage. I've watched 2 Titans burn their entire super bars leap frogging and missing each other with their hammers and then they both run off with their tails between their legs.

Raw damage on the Golden Gun needs a buff, like, really badly. While I'm okay with some supers having more trouble with one shots (Hammer of Sol splash is really unreliable for kills, Arcblade gets so many other benefits, Shadowshot has more Utility, and Defender is, well, Defender) I don't think that a super that is limited to point-and-click kills with very limited secondary utility should have trouble skunking other supers. Though, I don't think the Breaker Titan needs as much of a nerf as is implied. And speaking of Key Hole and Combustion, I've gotten quad kills with a single shot (after burning my first two on a Defender Bubble) thanks to those. Yes, rare occurrence, but fortuitous use of supers is always important in Crucible. And no, I didn't really believe it had happened when it did.

locked

2191 views

I'm not saying Sunbreaker isn't amazing, because it is awesome. But I will say that it's about time Titans get an super that isn't just a panic button or a counter to other supers. That being said, the list below are all abilities for a Sunbreaker, however they can't all be used at once.

Sunbreaker:
7 shots
leaves DoT AoE on the ground per shot
Shots have marginal tracking
Gains health on kills
Has overshield
Has damage resistance
short activation animation (during which damage resistance is active)
all shots explode in a small area
shots cannot overpenetrate

Golden Gun:
Cries. A lot.

Okay, actually:

Golden Gun:
3 shots
No DoT component
no tracking component
no health gained on kills
no overshield
no damage resistance
long activation animation (still no damage resistance)
shots can explode in a small area
shots can overpenetrate

Now, I will speak from my experience as a SunBreaker having never played a hunter. I'm also not that great a PvP.

Anyway, the thing that was not listed in this is the difficulty of hitting someone with hammers. The best relation I can put it is that Golden gun is a one hit sniper rifle (or close to it in most cases) and and Hammers are an slightly slower arcing rocket launcher.

In most cases, yes a rocket launcher is better. But there are cases for both abilities. First off, just like rockets (without proximity detonation) it's hard to hit someone in the air. And the tracking ability isn't that good (I never use it). Secondly, hammers can be dodged like rockets, yes, it's hard but it's possible. You cannot dodge a golden gun. As for Golden guns, they have the range and the easy hit aspect. I can't totally speak to this, because I haven't used it, but I've seen it enough to realize that it IS a gun :-)

Anyway, I'm not arguing that Hammers aren't overpowered, I'm just saying people are saying they are MUCH better than they actually are. Also on a side note, I'm finally having fun with a super that you "master races" had in the first year, so I feel like you can live with it for another year. Learn to be a support race for a change like the first year titan was relegated to :D

Okay, I've spoken my piece.

locked

2139 views

I've played Sunbreaker and GG/BD in mayhem back to back. On my BD I was averaging .5-.8 KD. It was terrible. I could be blade dancing, come around the corner on a Titan, and he would pop his hammer, I would hit him once, and then he would throw one hammer and kill me.

Changing to GG, I could prep and get the kill but any mistake, or getting unlucky, was death. I had better luck spamming grenades then using GG.

Conversely on my Sunbreaker I was routinely doing 2-3 KD. It was easy, if you missed with one hammer just toss another, you have plenty. With the high jump giving great viability.
You could even toss hammers around a corner and get splash kills on people waiting with shotguns. The warmup time is low, and easy to use as a counter when I saw other people pop their supers because I knew I could not be oneshot by SC, GG, BD or nova.

The sunbreakers have exceptional synergy in class and an all round better super. The only situation where GG comes out ahead is on long range bosses with Celestial Nighthawk. If you wanted to fix this then there needs to be major changes to the GG tree, and Over the Horizon and Keyhole need to be rolled into the super.

As it stands, a Nightstalker with the 3 shot bow is a better GG then GG.

locked

2097 views

The list also shows all possible abilities for golden gun even though you have to spec into them and (my opinion) keyhole and combustion aren't worthwhile.

locked

2093 views

For the most part you are spot on. GG shots should 1 shot in the crucible. Nothing is worse than GG a striker titan, then get smash and he has significant health left. Granted I know the perk they have gives SIGNIFICANT damage resistance, but a GG shot?

Golden Gunners and Nightstalkers (I Think) are the only classes to not get some sort of increased damage resistance. You can argue that defenders dont get it personally, but they do from their bubble, and well defenders are broken to begin with. Nothing is worse (or better, depending on which side you are on) than getting killed right after you pop your super. If its with another super OK fine, getting killed be general gunfire while stuck in animation NOT OK. Im sure someone will post something about being better at popping your super. Obviously that is the work around and I do do that, but there are certain times that do not allow for this, and for other classes thats fine, but not for GG or Nightstalkers.

Long story short, all classes need a damage resistance increase during super, or we need to scale down the others.

locked

2087 views

But, as a Warlock, I still get wrecked by Golden Gun, Bladedancers, and Strikers on a regular basis. I agree that Sunbreaker is way overpowered but in year 1 try being a Sunsinger or Voidwalker against panic smashes, one-shot GG kills, and bladdancers whipping around doing one-hit kills.

I'm not going to complain about Sunsinger/Voidwalker supers (Stormcaller super helps) but I'm just saying that the other two classes still have an amazing amount of one-hit kill opportunities. Yes, Sunbreakers are overpowered, but Hunters can still dish out serious killing power.

locked

2100 views

But, as a Warlock, I still get wrecked by Golden Gun, Bladedancers, and Strikers on a regular basis. I agree that Sunbreaker is way overpowered but in year 1 try being a Sunsinger or Voidwalker against panic smashes, one-shot GG kills, and bladdancers whipping around doing one-hit kills.

I'm not going to complain about Sunsinger/Voidwalker supers (Stormcaller super helps) but I'm just saying that the other two classes still have an amazing amount of one-hit kill opportunities. Yes, Sunbreakers are overpowered, but Hunters can still dish out serious killing power.

But if I golden gun you while you're starting your super animation as a voidwalker, you still have your super when you come back. If you kill me while I'm popping golden gun, I've lost my super. That's a HUGE difference.

locked

2071 views

But if I golden gun you while you're starting your super animation as a voidwalker, you still have your super when you come back. If you kill me while I'm popping golden gun, I've lost my super. That's a HUGE difference.

I don't have a HUGE amount of experience with other classes, but it seemed to me (at least in Y1) that Striker was the only class that got their super back if it didn't actually activate. (That is - if you kill a Striker at ANY POINT before the FoH activates, he respawns with FoH. If you kill him AFTER it activates, he's killed whoever he was trying to kill. Other classes seemed to ALL suffer (or at least I would suffer when I played all other classes) from the loss of the super before it actually activated. Even Voidwalkers could be killed AFTER activation but BEFORE actual implementation.

locked

2144 views

But if I golden gun you while you're starting your super animation as a voidwalker, you still have your super when you come back. If you kill me while I'm popping golden gun, I've lost my super. That's a HUGE difference.

I don't have a HUGE amount of experience with other classes, but it seemed to me (at least in Y1) that Striker was the only class that got their super back if it didn't actually activate. (That is - if you kill a Striker at ANY POINT before the FoH activates, he respawns with FoH. If you kill him AFTER it activates, he's killed whoever he was trying to kill. Other classes seemed to ALL suffer (or at least I would suffer when I played all other classes) from the loss of the super before it actually activated. Even Voidwalkers could be killed AFTER activation but BEFORE actual implementation.

Nightstalker: You lose your super when the projectile is fired.
Gunslinger: Lose it when you activate.
Blade dance: Lose it when you activate.

VoidWalker: Lose it when the nova bomb fires
Sunsinger: Lose it on activation
Stormcaller: lose it on activation

Striker: Lose it when you hit the ground
Defender: Lose on activation
Sunbreaker: Lose on activation

Looks like all classes have an equal number of supers that you can keep if you die before killing with them. Year 1 was Titan and Warlock only.

locked

2114 views

But if I golden gun you while you're starting your super animation as a voidwalker, you still have your super when you come back. If you kill me while I'm popping golden gun, I've lost my super. That's a HUGE difference.

I don't have a HUGE amount of experience with other classes, but it seemed to me (at least in Y1) that Striker was the only class that got their super back if it didn't actually activate. (That is - if you kill a Striker at ANY POINT before the FoH activates, he respawns with FoH. If you kill him AFTER it activates, he's killed whoever he was trying to kill. Other classes seemed to ALL suffer (or at least I would suffer when I played all other classes) from the loss of the super before it actually activated. Even Voidwalkers could be killed AFTER activation but BEFORE actual implementation.

Nightstalker: You lose your super when the projectile is fired.
Gunslinger: Lose it when you activate.
Blade dance: Lose it when you activate.

VoidWalker: Lose it when the nova bomb fires
Sunsinger: Lose it on activation
Stormcaller: lose it on activation

Striker: Lose it when you hit the ground
Defender: Lose on activation
Sunbreaker: Lose on activation

Looks like all classes have an equal number of supers that you can keep if you die before killing with them. Year 1 was Titan and Warlock only.

Small difference:

Sunsinger, Defender, Sunbreaker, Stormcaller, and Bladedancer: You're getting super benefits the moment you pop your super (reduced incoming damage for Sunsinger, Sunbreaker, and Bladedancer, the actual super is up for Defender, and landfall hits as soon as you pop your super for Stormcaller). Golden Gun is the only super that you can pop, gain no benefit from at all, and die without having actually "used" your super. I was okay with that balance when GG was the only ranged super, but now it is outclassed in every way by Sunbreakers, which feels quite unfair.

locked

2095 views

I was okay with that balance when GG was the only ranged super, but now it is outclassed in every way by Sunbreakers, which feels quite unfair.

Every way? When talking about firing the actual projectile, apart from the splash of the hammer and the amount of projectiles, I'm pretty sure GG is better in every way actually.

Golden Gun:
1. Does more damage
2. Faster projectile
3. comes out of the gun instantly when you pull the trigger (SB's have a huge wind up to throw the hammer after a trigger pull)
4. fires in a straight line
5. longer range
6. faster firing (I'm not sure of this, but I'm think it's true)

You'll also notice that a lot of these are negated when you are in closer range. Which IMO is how it should be.

locked

2079 views

I was okay with that balance when GG was the only ranged super, but now it is outclassed in every way by Sunbreakers, which feels quite unfair.

Every way? When talking about firing the actual projectile, apart from the splash of the hammer and the amount of projectiles, I'm pretty sure GG is better in every way actually.

Golden Gun:
1. Does more damage

False. For PvP purposes, hammers kill everything GG shots kill in the same number of direct hits, plus hammers get a burn DoT plus there are 7 hammers to throw compared to 3 GG shots. Hammers dish out well over twice the damage that GG is capable of.

2. Faster projectile

True.

3. comes out of the gun instantly when you pull the trigger (SB's have a huge wind up to throw the hammer after a trigger pull)

True, but the caveat here is the hammer is basically spammable while GG shots are extremely limited.

4. fires in a straight line

This is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage, as the hammer can be thrown over cover. There are pros and cons to both cases.

5. longer range

False. You have to spec into longer range. Without the "over the horizon" perk, your GG can be dead on target and deal zero damage because of limited range.

6. faster firing (I'm not sure of this, but I'm think it's true)

Another True, but with caveat - you only have 3 GG shots, so you run out of shots really, really quickly. Also, because hammer shots travel through the air more slowly than GG shots, the moving hammer of doom provides very effective cover while the sunbreaker winds up for hammer number 2. Not so for GG shots.

You'll also notice that a lot of these are negated when you are in closer range. Which IMO is how it should be.

I'd be find with hammer being superior in close quarters, but it's superior at long ranges as well. 7 shots with damage resistance vs. 3 shots with no resistance.

locked

2073 views

I was okay with that balance when GG was the only ranged super, but now it is outclassed in every way by Sunbreakers, which feels quite unfair.

Every way? When talking about firing the actual projectile, apart from the splash of the hammer and the amount of projectiles, I'm pretty sure GG is better in every way actually.

Golden Gun:
1. Does more damage

False. For PvP purposes, hammers kill everything GG shots kill in the same number of direct hits, plus hammers get a burn DoT plus there are 7 hammers to throw compared to 3 GG shots. Hammers dish out well over twice the damage that GG is capable of.

Let me rephrase, Golden Gun does more damage per shot.

2. Faster projectile

True.

3. comes out of the gun instantly when you pull the trigger (SB's have a huge wind up to throw the hammer after a trigger pull)

True, but the caveat here is the hammer is basically spammable while GG shots are extremely limited.

This makes no sense to me. If you were to say "Pull" with both ultimates up. I'm pretty sure that a GG would get two shots off well before a SB could. Not to mention, unless a SB actually gets a direct hit, a GG should win. It's assumed that a SB is going to actually hit it's target easily, at least when I play it's not at all easy to directly hit a player.

4. fires in a straight line

This is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage, as the hammer can be thrown over cover. There are pros and cons to both cases.

At range this is a big advantage, at lower range this doesn't affect anything. For a GG, you point and shoot. at a decent range, an SB actually has to account for the arc which makes for a harder time to hit (and more time to think about it). I've never been in a situation where I could use the arc to my advantage.

5. longer range

False. You have to spec into longer range. Without the "over the horizon" perk, your GG can be dead on target and deal zero damage because of limited range.

I guess what I mean by this is, it's almost impossible to hit someone past medium range (like sniping range) with a hammer because of the arc. Maybe I'm just not a good enough aim but it's really hard to lob those hammers with accuracy.

6. faster firing (I'm not sure of this, but I'm think it's true)

Another True, but with caveat - you only have 3 GG shots, so you run out of shots really, really quickly.

Wait... I thought you just said that "basically spammable while GG shots are extremely limited."? I took that to mean that hammers can be thrown more often.

Also, because hammer shots travel through the air more slowly than GG shots, the moving hammer of doom provides very effective cover while the sunbreaker winds up for hammer number 2. Not so for GG shots.

I put this as a separate topic because it's only pro I think of is that you are saying that Hammers are great are cause mass confusion so that SB's can line up a second shot? I can see that, but I don't think it's great evidence for physic detriment to keep you from killing the SB, unless it's physically blinding you from seeing him.

You'll also notice that a lot of these are negated when you are in closer range. Which IMO is how it should be.

I'd be find with hammer being superior in close quarters, but it's superior at long ranges as well. 7 shots with damage resistance vs. 3 shots with no resistance.

I disagree when it comes to range. a GG has an easier time to get two shots off at medium range compared to a SB.

locked

2088 views

I was okay with that balance when GG was the only ranged super, but now it is outclassed in every way by Sunbreakers, which feels quite unfair.

Every way? When talking about firing the actual projectile, apart from the splash of the hammer and the amount of projectiles, I'm pretty sure GG is better in every way actually.

Golden Gun:
1. Does more damage

False. For PvP purposes, hammers kill everything GG shots kill in the same number of direct hits, plus hammers get a burn DoT plus there are 7 hammers to throw compared to 3 GG shots. Hammers dish out well over twice the damage that GG is capable of.

Let me rephrase, Golden Gun does more damage per shot.

2. Faster projectile

True.

3. comes out of the gun instantly when you pull the trigger (SB's have a huge wind up to throw the hammer after a trigger pull)

True, but the caveat here is the hammer is basically spammable while GG shots are extremely limited.

This makes no sense to me. If you were to say "Pull" with both ultimates up. I'm pretty sure that a GG would get two shots off well before a SB could. Not to mention, unless a SB actually gets a direct hit, a GG should win. It's assumed that a SB is going to actually hit it's target easily, at least when I play it's not at all easy to directly hit a player.

4. fires in a straight line

This is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage, as the hammer can be thrown over cover. There are pros and cons to both cases.

At range this is a big advantage, at lower range this doesn't affect anything. For a GG, you point and shoot. at a decent range, an SB actually has to account for the arc which makes for a harder time to hit (and more time to think about it). I've never been in a situation where I could use the arc to my advantage.

5. longer range

False. You have to spec into longer range. Without the "over the horizon" perk, your GG can be dead on target and deal zero damage because of limited range.

I guess what I mean by this is, it's almost impossible to hit someone past medium range (like sniping range) with a hammer because of the arc. Maybe I'm just not a good enough aim but it's really hard to lob those hammers with accuracy.

Golden Gun, without the "over the horizon" perk, won't hit at sniper range at all, either. Speccing into OTH costs either your second throwing knife or chain of woe, both of which are better perks imo. Usually if you're trying to GG at sniper range, the guy you're shooting at will just snipe you while your GG is still animating.

6. faster firing (I'm not sure of this, but I'm think it's true)

Another True, but with caveat - you only have 3 GG shots, so you run out of shots really, really quickly.

Wait... I thought you just said that "basically spammable while GG shots are extremely limited."? I took that to mean that hammers can be thrown more often.

I meant you don't have to throw every hammer with someone in your sights because you have enough hammers that tossing them at corners is viable. With GG you have to be very conservative with your shots.

Also, because hammer shots travel through the air more slowly than GG shots, the moving hammer of doom provides very effective cover while the sunbreaker winds up for hammer number 2. Not so for GG shots.

I put this as a separate topic because it's only pro I think of is that you are saying that Hammers are great are cause mass confusion so that SB's can line up a second shot? I can see that, but I don't think it's great evidence for physic detriment to keep you from killing the SB, unless it's physically blinding you from seeing him.

Sorry for not being clear. I mean that, if a hammer is already in the air, no on in their right mind is going to step out into its path to shoot at you while you wind up for throw number 2. The travel time basically provides area denial in your line of sight.

You'll also notice that a lot of these are negated when you are in closer range. Which IMO is how it should be.

I'd be find with hammer being superior in close quarters, but it's superior at long ranges as well. 7 shots with damage resistance vs. 3 shots with no resistance.

I disagree when it comes to range. a GG has an easier time to get two shots off at medium range compared to a SB.

You're looking at it purely as GG vs SB. Yes, in a 1 on 1 situation, GG can win at medium range. But now consider that there are other players in the game. GG kills the SB and can kill, at most, 1 more guy before his super is out (SB taking 2 shots to kill). SB kills GG and can then kill SIX more guys afterwards.

locked

2098 views

But if I golden gun you while you're starting your super animation as a voidwalker, you still have your super when you come back. If you kill me while I'm popping golden gun, I've lost my super. That's a HUGE difference.

I would be okay with that if I didn't hate Nova Bomb :D The tracking often bends the projectile away from walls and floors so that it misses completely or, if you have tracking off, the blast radius and travel time make it's effective range much smaller than they seem. There is a Goldilocks zone where the blast is far enough away from you but where you are still close enough to your enemy that they can't just jump over it. Playing as a Warlock, I rarely die to other's Nova Bombs.

Anyway, Sunsinger use to be the only viable class for me in Crucible. And while it was useful, killing with it was pretty hit or miss. Meh, I still love Stormcaller :)

locked

2034 views

Based solely on Celestial Nighthawk stacked with WoL and the nightstalker damage buff doing 148000 to the death singers. While yes it requires hitting the critical spot and it's a one and done, I don't know if 7 hammers puts out that muck damage.

locked

2046 views

Based solely on Celestial Nighthawk stacked with WoL and the nightstalker damage buff doing 148000 to the death singers. While yes it requires hitting the critical spot and it's a one and done, I don't know if 7 hammers puts out that muck damage.

Yeah, without any exotics powering it up though, it's the least useful super for damage output.

locked

2058 views

Each subclass has an exotic that fundamentally changes its super (don't know about sun Thor though, haven't played my Titan yet)

locked

2015 views

Each subclass has an exotic that fundamentally changes its super (don't know about sun Thor though, haven't played my Titan yet)

Well my point is that without an exotic that fundamentally changes its super the Gunslinger is not much help in PvE, especially in the DPS department. A Nova Bomb, for example, without an exotic piece of armor STILL wrecks a huge area worth of enemies, even some majors you couldn't kill with 3 shots from Golden Gun. This makes playing Gunslinger in PvE much more limiting. I WANT to wear my new Ahamkara Spine and get double tripmines, but to be useful I need to wear Celestial Nighthawk. Don't get me wrong, I love my Nighthawk, but i'd be nice to not be practically forced to use it.

locked

2055 views

Each subclass has an exotic that fundamentally changes its super (don't know about sun Thor though, haven't played my Titan yet)

Well my point is that without an exotic that fundamentally changes its super the Gunslinger is not much help in PvE, especially in the DPS department. A Nova Bomb, for example, without an exotic piece of armor STILL wrecks a huge area worth of enemies, even some majors you couldn't kill with 3 shots from Golden Gun. This makes playing Gunslinger in PvE much more limiting. I WANT to wear my new Ahamkara Spine and get double tripmines, but to be useful I need to wear Celestial Nighthawk. Don't get me wrong, I love my Nighthawk, but i'd be nice to not be practically forced to use it.

I totally agree. If I'm using my Gunslinger for PvE, the Celestial Nighthawk goes on by default.

locked

2061 views

Based solely on Celestial Nighthawk stacked with WoL and the nightstalker damage buff doing 148000 to the death singers. While yes it requires hitting the critical spot and it's a one and done, I don't know if 7 hammers puts out that muck damage.

Yeah, without any exotics powering it up though, it's the least useful super for damage output.

You have 3 times whatever the damage of one shot is...or one Celestial Nighthawk shot. Are you talking about damage output or potential to kill large groups?

locked

2047 views

Based solely on Celestial Nighthawk stacked with WoL and the nightstalker damage buff doing 148000 to the death singers. While yes it requires hitting the critical spot and it's a one and done, I don't know if 7 hammers puts out that muck damage.

Yeah, without any exotics powering it up though, it's the least useful super for damage output.

You have 3 times whatever the damage of one shot is...or one Celestial Nighthawk shot. Are you talking about damage output or potential to kill large groups?

Both in a way. Like I said in one of my responses it takes all three of my shots to MAYBE kill a major enemy, or I can put on Nighthawk and kill that enemy with one shot. Either way, I (maybe) kill ONE enemy. Meanwhile a Titan or Warlock comes in and levels an entire group of enemies, including the major. So you either have a mediocre super for killing groups, or a fantastic super for killing higher HP enemies at the price of using your exotic to do it compared to the Titan and Warlock's supers without exotics being better at both.

locked

2026 views

You have 3 times whatever the damage of one shot is...or one Celestial Nighthawk shot. Are you talking about damage output or potential to kill large groups?

Both in a way. Like I said in one of my responses it takes all three of my shots to MAYBE kill a major enemy, or I can put on Nighthawk and kill that enemy with one shot. Either way, I (maybe) kill ONE enemy. Meanwhile a Titan or Warlock comes in and levels an entire group of enemies, including the major. So you either have a mediocre super for killing groups, or a fantastic super for killing higher HP enemies at the price of using your exotic to do it compared to the Titan and Warlock's supers without exotics being better at both.

My memory could be fuzzy but I am fairly certain that a Nova Bomb cannot one-shot Majors either. Maybe if I get a direct hit on him, which is much harder to do than GG, it kills him, but I'm not even sure of that. I think we need hard numbers but my general experience is feeling that GG or Striker outclass Nova in nearly every situation.

locked

2019 views

My memory could be fuzzy but I am fairly certain that a Nova Bomb cannot one-shot Majors either. Maybe if I get a direct hit on him, which is much harder to do than GG, it kills him, but I'm not even sure of that. I think we need hard numbers but my general experience is feeling that GG or Striker outclass Nova in nearly every situation.

I was talking about this with Beorn last night. Nova Bomb has perks that can help you kill Majors (Vortex and Bloom for example), so for example if there is a group of trash adds and a major bloom can kill all the trash which does additional damage to the Major and can kill it. In comparison no (non-exotic) perk can increase the amount of damage that it does, only the area in which it does that damage (with Combustion), which is a tiny area.

But even if that's not true, how does GG outclass Nova without Nighthawk? You do at least a comparable amount of damage to a large area that GG gets in 3 shots on a single target.

locked

2023 views

My memory could be fuzzy but I am fairly certain that a Nova Bomb cannot one-shot Majors either. Maybe if I get a direct hit on him, which is much harder to do than GG, it kills him, but I'm not even sure of that. I think we need hard numbers but my general experience is feeling that GG or Striker outclass Nova in nearly every situation.

I was talking about this with Beorn last night. Nova Bomb has perks that can help you kill Majors (Vortex and Bloom for example), so for example if there is a group of trash adds and a major bloom can kill all the trash which does additional damage to the Major and can kill it. In comparison no (non-exotic) perk can increase the amount of damage that it does, only the area in which it does that damage (with Combustion), which is a tiny area.

But even if that's not true, how does GG outclass Nova without Nighthawk? You do at least a comparable amount of damage to a large area that GG gets in 3 shots on a single target.

Vortex is only helpful if your enemy decides to stay still in the big swirly ball of pain. Some do, but it is less likely with new bosses which dynamically move around. I'll have to trust you on Bloom killing the major as long as he is stationary, I don't have the hard numbers on that.

As for outclassing though I think the biggest thing is GG's range and lack of travel time. Nova is honestly useless at range in Crucible because any reasonable player can watch it slowly comes towards them. If the Nova has tracking on they can literally dodge it with a single jump, because tracking will pull it away from the ground and it will wiff under their feet. Nova's blast radius is tiny and only made semi reasonable with Annihilate selected. Sadly the splash damage isn't all that effective. If I spot a GG user popping their super, the lack of travel time on that shot makes my death immediate. If someone spots me nova bombing they can jump out of the way as my Nova travels toward them and continue putting shots on me.

Nova is still very useful at close range. But you can't use it as close as a panic smash, because firing too close will kill you. And you don't get the mad resistance of a Striker while using it either. The big benefit Nova has is keeping it if you get killed in the animation. But as Bungie described it as a "Glass Cannon", that's kind of the intent. They want you vulnerable as you use it

locked

2048 views

I'm definitely not disagreeing that Golden Gun is really good in Crucible. It has a single weakness in my opinion, which is you can die just as easily while it's activated as when it's not. My point was more about it's usefulness in PvE, which is minimal without using an exotic piece of armor.

And of course from the main topic, while Golden Gun only has the one weakness in Crucible, it doesn't have nearly as many strengths as Sunbreaker :)

locked

2019 views

- No text -

locked

1999 views

Each shot of PvE golden gun, without any buffs, does 864 damage at 299 light to a raid thrall. My scout rifle does 1064 with a critical and 842 with a normal hit. So my GG is basically a high impact scout rifle that can't critical, has only 3 shots, takes 2 seconds to turn on, and has a 4 minute reload.

Sure, being able to use nighthawk + WoL + void shot combo is great, but a gunslinger doesn't bring all of those tricks to the party, and they give up all of the other possible exotic armor options to pull off the amazing feat of "having a super that's useful" which everyone else gets for free.

locked

2030 views

Each shot of PvE golden gun, without any buffs, does 864 damage at 299 light to a raid thrall. My scout rifle does 1064 with a critical and 842 with a normal hit. So my GG is basically a high impact scout rifle that can't critical, has only 3 shots, takes 2 seconds to turn on, and has a 4 minute reload.

Holy shit. Those numbers are ridiculous. That's an awful Super.

Sure, being able to use nighthawk + WoL + void shot combo is great, but a gunslinger doesn't bring all of those tricks to the party, and they give up all of the other possible exotic armor options to pull off the amazing feat of "having a super that's useful" which everyone else gets for free.

Yeah. It's not a very super Super, if you have to rely on others to make it useful.

Also if you just use it to damage bosses, you're not generating orbs for anyone which blows.

locked

2031 views

yeah. :(

The strategy for GG is to use your normal gun to get yellow health guys low enough to die in one sniper shot, activate GG, and then kill the yellow guys, thereby generating orbs for your teammates who will use their supers to keep you alive. GG is basically not viable outside of Celestial Nighthawk situations in PvE. Nightstalker is sooooo much better.

locked

2034 views

Each shot of PvE golden gun, without any buffs, does 864 damage at 299 light to a raid thrall. My scout rifle does 1064 with a critical and 842 with a normal hit. So my GG is basically a high impact scout rifle that can't critical, has only 3 shots, takes 2 seconds to turn on, and has a 4 minute reload.

Huh, so is there a big disconnect between Crucible GG and PvE GG? FOr instance if my Warlock were that Thrall in PvP the GG shot (at 864?) WOULD kill me unless I have some very specific Sunsinger build on... But that would mean that a headshot from your Scout rifle would more than kill me? I'm missing something.

Perhaps Gunslinger's super is under powered in PvE but the damage is much higher in PvP?

locked

2013 views

Each shot of PvE golden gun, without any buffs, does 864 damage at 299 light to a raid thrall. My scout rifle does 1064 with a critical and 842 with a normal hit. So my GG is basically a high impact scout rifle that can't critical, has only 3 shots, takes 2 seconds to turn on, and has a 4 minute reload.

Huh, so is there a big disconnect between Crucible GG and PvE GG? FOr instance if my Warlock were that Thrall in PvP the GG shot (at 864?) WOULD kill me unless I have some very specific Sunsinger build on... But that would mean that a headshot from your Scout rifle would more than kill me? I'm missing something.

Perhaps Gunslinger's super is under powered in PvE but the damage is much higher in PvP?

Yeah that's actually the way all Guardian abilities in Destiny work. The scaling for PvP is significantly different than PvE.

locked

2015 views

Huh, so is there a big disconnect between Crucible GG and PvE GG? FOr instance if my Warlock were that Thrall in PvP the GG shot (at 864?) WOULD kill me unless I have some very specific Sunsinger build on... But that would mean that a headshot from your Scout rifle would more than kill me? I'm missing something.

Perhaps Gunslinger's super is under powered in PvE but the damage is much higher in PvP?

Yeah that's actually the way all Guardian abilities in Destiny work. The scaling for PvP is significantly different than PvE.

Huh, okay thanks. Looking at those numbers for PvE then, GG definitely needs a boost. I don't think boosting it in Crucible will change much though, as it is already a one-hit kill most always :)

locked

2011 views

Huh, okay thanks. Looking at those numbers for PvE then, GG definitely needs a boost. I don't think boosting it in Crucible will change much though, as it is already a one-hit kill most always :)

Yeah no argument there :)

Just make it so I can one shot a Sunbreaker and I'll be happy. (Which is more a Sunbreaker issue than a GG issue)

locked

2021 views

Each shot of PvE golden gun, without any buffs, does 864 damage at 299 light to a raid thrall. My scout rifle does 1064 with a critical and 842 with a normal hit. So my GG is basically a high impact scout rifle that can't critical, has only 3 shots, takes 2 seconds to turn on, and has a 4 minute reload.

Huh, so is there a big disconnect between Crucible GG and PvE GG? FOr instance if my Warlock were that Thrall in PvP the GG shot (at 864?) WOULD kill me unless I have some very specific Sunsinger build on... But that would mean that a headshot from your Scout rifle would more than kill me? I'm missing something.

Perhaps Gunslinger's super is under powered in PvE but the damage is much higher in PvP?

Yeah, the PvE damage of GG is atrocious and is definitely not a direct relation to the PvP damage. You can GG anything that you could critically 1-shot anyway, which - to my - means why bother with GG? It's only good for popping solar shields, or (with Nighthawk) doing large damage to a boss. Even Nighthawk doesn't 1-shot the crota knight, even if that night is tethered by another hunter's shadow shot. It's stupid. Plus GG can't crit, so it does less damage than almost any other weapon against some bosses like Golgoroth.

That being said, while GG is definitely decent in PvP, I don't think anyone should be able to survive a single shot of a super, with the exception of Defender Titans in their bubbles (who take 3 shots- 2 to pop the bubble and the third to kill the defender).

I mean, the crux of my argument is GG sucks in PvE and, while decent in PvP, does not at all compare to the Sunbreaker, which needs nerfing.

locked

2033 views

I'm ok with a Radiant Skinned Sunsinger surviving one shot because they had to give up other very significant options and because, frankly, Radiance isn't anywhere near as dangerous as most Supers.

locked

2034 views

I'm ok with a Radiant Skinned Sunsinger surviving one shot because they had to give up other very significant options and because, frankly, Radiance isn't anywhere near as dangerous as most Supers.

That makes sense.

locked

2028 views

I'm ok with a Radiant Skinned Sunsinger surviving one shot because they had to give up other very significant options and because, frankly, Radiance isn't anywhere near as dangerous as most Supers.

Yeah that doesn't bother me because Sunsingers are WAY less dangerous than Sunbreakers.

locked

2004 views

I'm not so sure those numbers are telling the whole story. I seem to remember doing 2000+ damage to Oryx per shot, which was quite useful in staggering him.

locked

2016 views

The numbers change depending on your light level, whether or not you have weapons of light, a tether, that fire debuff from sunbreakers, and the light level of your target. My numbers are from back when I was a lower light level than I am now, so I'd guess I'd do more damage now, too.

locked

2040 views

Sunbreaker's greatness makes up for the Defender's complete uselessness.

Nerf Sunbreaker? Then please buff Defender, because Defender is still just a giant "get your kills here" target in PvP.

locked

2051 views

Sunbreaker's greatness makes up for the Defender's complete uselessness.

Nerf Sunbreaker? Then please buff Defender, because Defender is still just a giant "get your kills here" target in PvP.

I definitely understand Titan's feelings on this, but having a subclass that needs buffing does not somehow balance out one that REALLY needs nerfing. If you have a useless subclass, people just won't play it much and you won't notice. Having an OP subclass will be much more noticeable and game breaking.

This isn't to say that I think Defender doesn't need a buff, because it totally does, but the Sunbreaker balance at the moment is affecting PvP a lot more than the Defender balance.

locked

2033 views

Agreed. Plus, the Sunbreaker very nearly makes both the Defender AND Striker redundant across all modes. At the end of the Undying Mind Strike in the 3rd or so wave of ads when all those Majors spawn on the rectangular slab on the right. As a Striker I can Fist of Havoc the middle of the group, maybe kill a few then run for my life. As a Defender I can Bubble and probably fight them with my Dark-Drinker but as a Sunbreaker I can hammer them all and probably fling a hammer or two to the ads on the other side...

PvP Sunbreaker is too tough and can kill too many too easily, but in PvE they're arguably even better!

locked

1988 views

I definitely understand Titan's feelings on this, but having a subclass that needs buffing does not somehow balance out one that REALLY needs nerfing. [...]

This isn't to say that I think Defender doesn't need a buff, because it totally does, but the Sunbreaker balance at the moment is affecting PvP a lot more than the Defender balance.

Yeah, I agree. After looking at the comparison the Sunbreaker sublcass does seem like it could use a nerf, but gosh it sure feels wonderful to have a great super as a titan for once. :)

locked

2034 views

I'm not really sure why people think the Sunbreaker is so unkillable. I've died plenty of times as a Sunbreaker with my super up. Like with pretty much any super, it's usually best to just avoid the person with their super, but if not you can kill them. Sunbreakers only gain health if they are getting kills, not by magically throwing hammers.

locked

2030 views

I'm not really sure why people think the Sunbreaker is so unkillable. I've died plenty of times as a Sunbreaker with my super up. Like with pretty much any super, it's usually best to just avoid the person with their super, but if not you can kill them. Sunbreakers only gain health if they are getting kills, not by magically throwing hammers.

It's not that they are impossible to kill, it's that every other super that has the ranged killing power that the Sunbreaker has has WAY less armor. Even Bladedancer, who pretty much everyone used to consider broken, dies from a single high impact sniper headshot or from a high impact shotgun shot and melee. Sunbreaker can kill from MUCH further away and has MORE armor, AND the health regen perk that everyone also hated on Bladedancer.

locked

2028 views

Back to the forum index

RSS Feed of thread

DBO Forums

Sunbreaker vs. Golden Gun, an in-depth analysis (Destiny)