Just another thing to look out for...

I wonder if it works with a 4 shot Gunslinger

- No text -

That said - I would love for some Mayhem on patrol. :D

Just another thing to look out for...

Wow. If that works in PvP... geez.

And boy are they exploiting it.

And the domino effect of them constantly generating Orbs for their Hammer Titans... IB is not a fun place to be at the moment...

:(

- No text -

There's nothing better to do, right?

I literally cannot think of anything better to do. So happy for you.

- No text -

I wondered why I kept getting shadowshot over and over and over...

are willing to cheat to win at a videogame.

are willing to cheat to win at a videogame.

Yeah, I saw a guy doing it on my team and he was TERRIBLE. I doubled his scored without cheating. And I still wished and said out loud that he gets banned.

are willing to cheat to win at a videogame.

Yeah, I saw a guy doing it on my team and he was TERRIBLE. I doubled his scored without cheating. And I still wished and said out loud that he gets banned.

It's easy to assume that the people beating you are cheating, especially given the lag compensation on the kill cam making it look like you got shot from around a corner, or that your weapon fired for no effect while their shotgun killed from a mile away.

I have a group of people that only get to game for a few hours once a month, and they like to play PVP when they do get on. They are somewhat unskilled, due to lack of practice, and know it, but even then they will quit in disgust when they think the other team is cheating.

It is a small step to go from that to abusing any and all exploits, and thinking that it is ok because everyone is doing it.

are willing to cheat to win at a videogame.

It's not really cheating. It's simply using a combination of interacting game elements to your advantage. That being said, such elements interacting the way they do is not good for the game overall. You patch it and move on, but don't blame people who use it.

If Destiny was played on MLG I think this is one tactic that would probably be disallowed. It's actually game breaking. But that's your fault for making a broken game, not the players who play it.

Just because the rules allow it, doesn't mean it isn't dickish. And since everyone knows they're being dickish by doing it, they're purposely dickish and thus configure what I would call a dick.

It's not really cheating. It's simply using a combination of interacting game elements to your advantage. That being said, such elements interacting the way they do is not good for the game overall. You patch it and move on, but don't blame people who use it.

That's ridiculous. It's cheating, just like BXR and Superbouncing were cheating back in the day. "But it's in the game!" is such a cop-out argument. It's obviously not intended and is against the way the game is designed to be played.

Just because the rules allow it, doesn't mean it isn't dickish. And since everyone knows they're being dickish by doing it, they're purposely dickish and thus configure what I would call a dick.

The rules DON'T allow it. It's a glitch, unintended. It'd be like a basketball player not dribbling down the court and just running with the ball. Sure, he CAN do that, physically, but it's against the rules. Just as having an unlimited Super is against the intended rules.

Help Bungie help the community by reporting everyone you find who cheats.

It's not really cheating. It's simply using a combination of interacting game elements to your advantage. That being said, such elements interacting the way they do is not good for the game overall. You patch it and move on, but don't blame people who use it.

That's ridiculous. It's cheating, just like BXR and Superbouncing were cheating back in the day. "But it's in the game!" is such a cop-out argument. It's obviously not intended and is against the way the game is designed to be played.

It's the exact same thing as certain Cheeses in PvE. The only difference is that it's based on an ability which means it can be used against other people in PvP which affects others. Not many people have a problem with PvE cheating because it only affects themselves.

You're not wrong.

I don't cheese my way through PvE activities, either. It's not fun.

It's not really cheating. It's simply using a combination of interacting game elements to your advantage.

You're nuts, Cody. Where do you come up with this crap?

cheating (v)
1) act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

It's not like the player just activates his/her Super and it lasts forever, with the player not being able to anything about it. No, the player needs to actively and purposefully extend the timer through a specific action before the clock runs out, and they have to do it repeatedly.

It doesn't matter if it's in PvE or PvP, actively using an exploit to gain an unfair advantage anywhere is cheating. The real question is, "how bad is it?" I'll certainly argue that cheating in PvE is a different situation than cheating in PvP because cheating in the Crucible impacts other players directly. Therefore, going to the trouble to exploit the glitch in a Crucible match is 100%, Grade-AAA, Organic, 3-Michelin Star, Certified Cheating. No two ways to slice it. If you're using this exploit in PvP, you are a jerk and have no business playing with others.*

Now, because it's obviously a bug and relatively simple to execute, I don't think people who are using it should be punished harshly (but I do think a week-long ban from Trials would be appropriate). The real mea culpa here is on Bungie, and it's up to them to patch this quickly and seal the rupture.

*I know some folks here and elsewhere tried the exploit just to see if it worked. Using it once is different than using it twice.

- No text -

- No text -

I reported a rando on my Iron Banner team for this last night. Both through Destiny and Xbox Live complete with description.

... Bungie has stated multiple times that they do not consider this cheating, they consider it an exploit that needs fixed. Time and again they have spun it as "hey, good for you guys for being creative with the mechanics. Our bad. We'll fix that!"

It's the gaming equivalent of a legal loophole. Yep, it surely does ruin fun and isn't how the game is intended to be played. But as the current rules stand, it's not "cheating" in the sense that you're breaking any rules. It's exploiting the current rules to your own advantage. Cody is being pedantic, but words do matter. it's not strictly cheating, but it is in very poor form and deliberately working the system to your own advantage at the expense of others.

It does make the game un-fun, especially in PvP, and for that reason I expect it to be patched quickly.

Gotta love semantic arguments... :D

They've said that for some bugs like the Three of Coins rapid farming but have they said that specifically about this? I highly doubt they consider this to be a "hey, go ahead until we fix it" type bug...

I agree, cheating, and definitely not cool. Anyone (running nightstalker) can do it so I can see an argument for it being "fair" and therefore not cheating, but even if you agree with that argument (which I don't) you must agree to the fact that it's an exploit and that it's very unsportsmanlike.

Is that people getting irritated in Iron Banner (crazy I know) will die from Shadowshot, and report non-cheating Nightstalkers. I feel like anyone that is a nightstalker will be targeted, I just hope that Bungie does their due diligence and doesnt ban innocent players. I ABSOLUTELY report people exploiting this, and I will be very upset if this isnt fixed by trials, and teams are using it to win. Iron banner isnt that big of a deal, annoying sure, but you just play another match. I cant tell you how mad I would be if I was 8-0 without Mercy of Osiris, then lost to this. I would feel like I deserve some sort of reparations.

I agree, cheating, and definitely not cool. Anyone (running nightstalker) can do it so I can see an argument for it being "fair" and therefore not cheating, but even if you agree with that argument (which I don't) you must agree to the fact that it's an exploit and that it's very unsportsmanlike.

Yeah, the key thing here is that it's only for a single subclass. Which means the nightstalker is getting an unfair advantage over the other subclasses. If everyone had this glitch, then I might not consider it cheating. In fact, Bungie already made this happen, it's called mayhem.

- No text -

- No text -

I don't consider this "cheating". A glitch, a bug, sure. But it is not the players who are "breaking the game". This isn't like yanking your ethernet cable out of the wall or lag-switching. This is players using a button combination to achieve results that Bungie didn't intend. It should absolutely be fixed, but I don't blame players for using it.

Right on, brother--right on.

Sunbreakers get that whole spamming glitch wherever they go, Nightstalkers get this, and us Stormcallers?

No cheats for us! We're all left in the dust.

I don't consider this "cheating". A glitch, a bug, sure. But it is not the players who are "breaking the game". This isn't like yanking your ethernet cable out of the wall or lag-switching. This is players using a button combination to achieve results that Bungie didn't intend. It should absolutely be fixed, but I don't blame players for using it.

Technically, yanking your Ethernet cable or lag-switching isn't "breaking the game" either. all three cases are players giving Destiny and its servers input that Destiny tries to interpret and fails to do so. These are just cases where Destiny failing to correctly handle it results in the player getting an advantage.

If the players weren't doing anything out of the range of normal input that Bungie expects players to do to keep the game fair and the glitch/bug happens then that is not cheating. People are exploiting the software and in turn, that gives them an advantage over other people. That in my mind is cheating.

I don't consider this "cheating". A glitch, a bug, sure. But it is not the players who are "breaking the game". This isn't like yanking your ethernet cable out of the wall or lag-switching. This is players using a button combination to achieve results that Bungie didn't intend. It should absolutely be fixed, but I don't blame players for using it.

Technically, yanking your Ethernet cable or lag-switching isn't "breaking the game" either. all three cases are players giving Destiny and its servers input that Destiny tries to interpret and fails to do so. These are just cases where Destiny failing to correctly handle it results in the player getting an advantage.

If the players weren't doing anything out of the range of normal input that Bungie expects players to do to keep the game fair and the glitch/bug happens then that is not cheating. People are exploiting the software and in turn, that gives them an advantage over other people. That in my mind is cheating.

Personally, I see a big difference between pressing buttons on the controller and yanking a cable out of your wall :)

The problem is this affects other players. The "3 of Coins" farming glitch, for example, didn't. (Not directly, and less as time goes by and other players get to catch up through regular play.)

-- Steve's had this debate before, back in the Halo 2 sword-dummying days. Screw the game up for yourself, fine; screw it up for others, it's cheating.

Personally, I see a big difference between pressing buttons on the controller and yanking a cable out of your wall :)

And I understand there is a big difference between them. But ultimately I see it as an intent to cheat.

I don't consider this "cheating". A glitch, a bug, sure. But it is not the players who are "breaking the game". This isn't like yanking your ethernet cable out of the wall or lag-switching. This is players using a button combination to achieve results that Bungie didn't intend. It should absolutely be fixed, but I don't blame players for using it.

Putting all the blame on the game developer is just silly. Who exactly, but the player, pressed the buttons? I think players absolutely should be held accountable for intentional unsportsmanlike actions. Don't want a ban? Don't do the thing you know is wrong.

There's a world of difference between accidentally tripping over the network cable and purposely yanking it. And that applies to any actions you take while gaming. Including button exploits.

I don't consider this "cheating". A glitch, a bug, sure. But it is not the players who are "breaking the game". This isn't like yanking your ethernet cable out of the wall or lag-switching. This is players using a button combination to achieve results that Bungie didn't intend. It should absolutely be fixed, but I don't blame players for using it.

Putting all the blame on the game developer is just silly. Who exactly, but the player, pressed the buttons? I think players absolutely should be held accountable for intentional unsportsmanlike actions. Don't want a ban? Don't do the thing you know is wrong.

The developers allowed this glitch through. The onus is on them to ensure that everything functions as intended. By your logic, Quake players should have been banned for rocket jumping (a developer-confirmed "bug" that players stumbled on to). I'm not saying "it's ok" for players to do it. I'm just saying Bungie let this slip through the cracks and they should fix it ASAP (as I'm sure they will). I don't think players need to be banned over it.

It should be relatively easy to identify glitchers by the recorded game stats. For example, given zero orb pickups you should only see your super 2-3 times per match. So if you have more then 9 max shots of shadowshot per game odds are you are cheating.

That should be a fairly simple query of the game data.

It should be relatively easy to identify glitchers by the recorded game stats. For example, given zero orb pickups you should only see your super 2-3 times per match. So if you have more then 9 max shots of shadowshot per game odds are you are cheating.

That should be a fairly simple query of the game data.

And this will key them into where they need to review, not auto-ban. That's also why I'm reporting people though, I don't actually expect people be banned, I just think they'll probably want as many marked instances as they can get.

Pretty sure the Heavy Ammo glitch ended with people being banned, doubt they'd shrug and be okay with this one.

network manipulation is the only known reason of cracking down on "cheating" that I'm aware of. (Also here)

Even AFKers weren't labeled as cheaters, just bad citizens who got warnings.

Pushing atheon off a ledge was an exploit/cheese.
Shooting the nexus mind via glitching through the wall for nightfalls was an exploit/cheese.
Hiding under the platform for winter's run was an exploit/cheese.
Sword jumping across the chasm in crota was an exploit/cheese, as was making everything despawn then completing it. Among other things.

What about final round snipers in trials? Sucks, yes, bad sportsmanship, yes, but is it cheating?

All of these things were corrected by bungie and not labelled as cheating. I think there are a few things in PvP like this as well, but I'm not as avid of a PvPer, so I'd have a harder time to compile a list. Besides, I'm out of time. =)

Cheating != bad sportsmanship. Cheating != exploits. Cheating is breaking the rules. This is working around them. It's still a dick move, and I don't do it nor would I condone it.

It's easy enough to tell if they're cheating when they shoot out the 4th shadow shot in a row.

- No text -

Hmmm, I could have sworn those people abusing the glitch to get early Heavy Ammo in PvP got banned? It was the first mass use of the ole Banhammer, I thought?

Maybe Im misremembering.

It is actually exactly like doing anything that causes the game to behave in a way other than intended in order to give you an advantage. That's called cheating. It doesn't matter if the game is a buggy mess, if you exploit that bug, that's cheating. Getting outside the map to snipe people through walls where they can't see you? Cheating. Untethering your damage dealing avatar from your damage receiving avatar? Cheating. Infinite Hammers? Cheating. Infinite Shadow Shots? Cheating. Lag-switching? Cheating. It's all cheating.

You appear to be drawing a distinction from a guy who actually got a piece of hardware installed in order to cheat vs. a guy who is able to cheat without needing hardware. That's a false distinction. The lag switch is a hardware device which takes advantage of a lapse in code fidelity by allowing you to disable upstream packets while still registering kills and receiving downstream packets. A truly robust PvP code that wasn't exploitable would prevent this behavior. But because it's not prevented in Destiny, it's technically a bug that's being exploited, just like the refilling of the super bar for Quiver Shadow Shot by going to the inventory menu - that, too, is a bug that's being exploited.

Using exploits of any kind for personal gain is... wait for it... cheating.

- No text -

I don't consider this "cheating". A glitch, a bug, sure. But it is not the players who are "breaking the game". This isn't like yanking your ethernet cable out of the wall or lag-switching. This is players using a button combination to achieve results that Bungie didn't intend. It should absolutely be fixed, but I don't blame players for using it.

Putting all the blame on the game developer is just silly. Who exactly, but the player, pressed the buttons? I think players absolutely should be held accountable for intentional unsportsmanlike actions. Don't want a ban? Don't do the thing you know is wrong.

The developers allowed this glitch through. The onus is on them to ensure that everything functions as intended. By your logic, Quake players should have been banned for rocket jumping (a developer-confirmed "bug" that players stumbled on to). I'm not saying "it's ok" for players to do it. I'm just saying Bungie let this slip through the cracks and they should fix it ASAP (as I'm sure they will). I don't think players need to be banned over it.

I do think players need to be banned over it.

The quake example is a terrible one because rocket jumping was a thing every player could do and it didn't provide a clear advantage to anyone when it was used (didn't make you invulnerable or do more damage, just let you jump somewhere a little higher). Plus I'm a little sketchy on rocket jumping even being a bug, because rocket jumping was a thing in Marathon which you needed to use to reach certain secret areas, and that came out 2 years before quake.

Yup.

I was a professional tester for 13 years and all of these things would be classified as "exploit/cheat" in the bug database. A situation has been created where the game code can't handle it properly and an advantage is granted to the player as a result. That's the definition of an exploit or cheat. it doesn't matter if the input is from hardware (yanking the cord) or from other hardware (pressing a button), it's all input that the game code doesn't seem to have proper error trapping for.

But I still think it's clearly cheating.

Um, those afkers got restricted and Bungie was open to permanently banning them if they kept it up:

This week, we've restricted a small number of the most toxic players from matchmaking. The restrictions we're putting on their accounts are temporary and apply only to the activities where they were chronically idle. If the affected players keep up this behavior after the restrictions lapse, we will apply stronger and (eventually) permanent restrictions on their accounts.

How about simply inspecting players and then backing out? Two things that are intentionally supported by the game? Individually, and in moderation they are harmless. Combine them to the detriment of others and Bungie is open to temporary restrictions:

We've seen you backing out of matches on final approach in your ships because you saw formidable opponents on the other team. That tactic could earn you a restriction from future Trials of Osiris events. Please stick it out and fight - even if you know you're about to be visited by tourists from the Lighthouse.

So, players have been held accountable for far less than exploting button glitches. Bungie recognizes that players need to be held responsible for certain things, even things that don't normally break any rules or require the slightest exploit and we should recognize it too.

It is actually exactly like doing anything that causes the game to behave in a way other than intended in order to give you an advantage. That's called cheating. It doesn't matter if the game is a buggy mess, if you exploit that bug, that's cheating. Getting outside the map to snipe people through walls where they can't see you? Cheating. Untethering your damage dealing avatar from your damage receiving avatar? Cheating. Infinite Hammers? Cheating. Infinite Shadow Shots? Cheating. Lag-switching? Cheating. It's all cheating.

You appear to be drawing a distinction from a guy who actually got a piece of hardware installed in order to cheat vs. a guy who is able to cheat without needing hardware. That's a false distinction. The lag switch is a hardware device which takes advantage of a lapse in code fidelity by allowing you to disable upstream packets while still registering kills and receiving downstream packets. A truly robust PvP code that wasn't exploitable would prevent this behavior. But because it's not prevented in Destiny, it's technically a bug that's being exploited, just like the refilling of the super bar for Quiver Shadow Shot by going to the inventory menu - that, too, is a bug that's being exploited.

Using exploits of any kind for personal gain is... wait for it... cheating.

If I'm a baseball player, and I notice the outfield wall has a whole in it, am I cheating if I manage to hit a ball straight through the hole for an automatic ground-rule double? No. I'm exploiting a flaw, but that is not actually the same as cheating. Modifying my bat with illegal materials? THAT is cheating.

If I'm a basketball player and I notice the rim of the net is slanted to one side, making it easier to dunk from the left, am I "cheating" for dunking from the left? No.

If bungie ships a subclass that has infinite super abilities simply by hitting the menu button, then the player is not "cheating" for exploiting that. Not playing the game "as intended" does not automatically mean cheating. That's where my rocket-jump example came in. Rocket jumps were not originally designed in to Quake. It lead to players reaching ledges in ways the designers didn't expect. But those players weren't "cheating". They were working with the tools that the game presented them.

There is a distinct difference between using outside hardware (or other methods) to screw with the game, vs exploiting a design flaw. Should the flaw be fixed? Absolutely. Should the players be punished? Absolutely not.

- No text -

- No text -

... not that they are one way or another, as far as we know. It's all just philosophical at this point, I think.

Hitting the baseball and dunking the basketball are well within the spirit of the game and even your examples don't require the player to act in an unsportsmanlike manner. The shadowshot glitch DOES require the players to act in an unsportsmanlike way, over and over, many times a match. That's the difference. And that, like backing out of Trials matches or not participating in a Strike you are part of, neither of which exploit game bugs, is why gross repeat offenders should face the possibility of punishment.

If they want to avoid being banned they can simply play the game as intended. Having an infinite repeating Super is very very VERY clearly not intended.

It is actually exactly like doing anything that causes the game to behave in a way other than intended in order to give you an advantage. That's called cheating. It doesn't matter if the game is a buggy mess, if you exploit that bug, that's cheating. Getting outside the map to snipe people through walls where they can't see you? Cheating. Untethering your damage dealing avatar from your damage receiving avatar? Cheating. Infinite Hammers? Cheating. Infinite Shadow Shots? Cheating. Lag-switching? Cheating. It's all cheating.

You appear to be drawing a distinction from a guy who actually got a piece of hardware installed in order to cheat vs. a guy who is able to cheat without needing hardware. That's a false distinction. The lag switch is a hardware device which takes advantage of a lapse in code fidelity by allowing you to disable upstream packets while still registering kills and receiving downstream packets. A truly robust PvP code that wasn't exploitable would prevent this behavior. But because it's not prevented in Destiny, it's technically a bug that's being exploited, just like the refilling of the super bar for Quiver Shadow Shot by going to the inventory menu - that, too, is a bug that's being exploited.

Using exploits of any kind for personal gain is... wait for it... cheating.

If I'm a baseball player, and I notice the outfield wall has a whole in it, am I cheating if I manage to hit a ball straight through the hole for an automatic ground-rule double? No. I'm exploiting a flaw, but that is not actually the same as cheating. Modifying my bat with illegal materials? THAT is cheating.

Unless it was in the rules, I would call it cheating yeah. Why? Because baseball stadiums are built a certain way to play baseball in a fair way for both teams. Now, both teams use the field and thus have the same chance to "exploit" the weakness in the baseball stadium, which would be fine until it was fixed. And you might say the same thing could be true of Destiny, however exploiting the weakness in Destiny isn't based on Skill, it's based on whether you have a Hunter with shadow shot. Again, I bring up my point, cheating in my mind is exploiting the game to the disadvantage of those you play against. If everyone had Hunters and were using this, I wouldn't call it cheating, because everyone would be on the same playing field. Which would just be Mayhem with hunters.

If I'm a basketball player and I notice the rim of the net is slanted to one side, making it easier to dunk from the left, am I "cheating" for dunking from the left? No.

Like I brought up above. It's cheating if only one of the rims is slanted, thus making it easier to dunk. If both rims, and thus both team's rims were bent, it wouldn't be cheating.

If I'm a baseball player, and I notice the outfield wall has a whole in it, am I cheating if I manage to hit a ball straight through the hole for an automatic ground-rule double? No. I'm exploiting a flaw, but that is not actually the same as cheating. Modifying my bat with illegal materials? THAT is cheating.

If I'm a basketball player and I notice the rim of the net is slanted to one side, making it easier to dunk from the left, am I "cheating" for dunking from the left? No.

If bungie ships a subclass that has infinite super abilities simply by hitting the menu button, then the player is not "cheating" for exploiting that. Not playing the game "as intended" does not automatically mean cheating. That's where my rocket-jump example came in. Rocket jumps were not originally designed in to Quake. It lead to players reaching ledges in ways the designers didn't expect. But those players weren't "cheating". They were working with the tools that the game presented them.

There is a distinct difference between using outside hardware (or other methods) to screw with the game, vs exploiting a design flaw. Should the flaw be fixed? Absolutely. Should the players be punished? Absolutely not.

Your examples are bad because the playspace geometry is an equal "cheat" for all players and does not actually present an unfair advantage to anyone involved. Take the basketball "cheat" for example. To make that relate to this shadow shot cheat, it would be to figure out that, after slam dunking, you could just pick up the ball and slam dunk it again, over and over and over, forever, as long as you waved to the bench after every two slams. It would also be only asian players who could do this, for some reason. Then it's similar to the shadow shot cheat. They're taking a game mechanic with very clear intended rules and doing something, on purpose, to play outside of those rules. That's cheating.

Read the earlier post that contains the definition of cheating again. The intention to circumvent the rules in order to gain an advantage is very clear with infinite shadow shot. To be clear: I do not think being a sunbreaker is cheating even though I do think being a sunbreaker is a distinct advantage, because the sunbreaker was designed to be game breakingly overpowered. I DO think - nay, I know - that infinite shadow shot is cheating, for the many reasons I have enumerated. You're supposed to only get 3 shots, you trick the game into giving you more, that's cheating.

I just want to go on record as saying that it's still cheating regardless of whether or not everyone is doing it. Two wrongs and all that. You're exploiting a bug in the code to cause the game to behave in a way other than was intended and reaping a benefit by doing so. That's cheating.

Don't want to be banned? Don't cheat. It's really easy to figure out.

- No text -

I just want to go on record as saying that it's still cheating regardless of whether or not everyone is doing it. Two wrongs and all that. You're exploiting a bug in the code to cause the game to behave in a way other than was intended and reaping a benefit by doing so. That's cheating.

I would say if you aren't reaping a benefit you aren't cheating, you are just making the game less than what it was intended.

But imagine this. We are in trials (tomorrow FINALLY). We are 8-0. Our mercy is gone. We are having a completely fair game. Then a nightstalker starts spamming arrows Legolas style. We lose, no lighthouse. You cannot tell me that the person doing that doesn't deserve some sort of punishment. I think you would probably be pretty upset. (I will probably already be upset from hammerbros, but thats a different story)

Imagine if you will, I am Bill Belichick, the New England Patriots coach. All of a sudden I can hear the opposing teams chatter through my headset because of an audio problem. Then I win a game, because I knew every play that the team was going to do. SHOULD I do it, absolutely not. CAN I do it, obviously. Obviously people are split on this decision, and I can certainly see both sides of the story. Personally I think there should be penalties. Nothing too crazy. A week ban from crucible would be OK by me.

Another way to put it, I could go around yelling vulgar language at kids. Can I do it? most definitely. Is it Legal? i suppose it is. Do I deserve to have my ass beat? Undoubtedly

I am not really upset by anyones views on this. I see what you are saying, and you are entitled to your opinion as everyone else is. These are just my thoughts.

Nevertheless, I am ready to play some trials with you and Cody tomorrow.

Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/3ouosr/bungie_you_have_to_postpone_trials_of_osiris_if/cw0txtv

"Bungie, you have to postpone trials of osiris if you dont fix the shadow shot glitch!"

Deej
"Can we table this movement until I can publish the Weekly Update? I'm investigating on a few fronts right now.

More to come!

Love your passion..."

Don't want to be banned? Don't cheat. It's really easy to figure out.

But my whole point is that not playing as intended =/= cheating, necessarily. We're just going in circles at this point, I just feel very strongly that the focus here should be on Bungie fixing their mistake ASAP, not on punishing players for using abilities that the game allows in order to win.

network manipulation is the only known reason of cracking down on "cheating" that I'm aware of. (Also here)

Even AFKers weren't labeled as cheaters, just bad citizens who got warnings.

Pushing atheon off a ledge was an exploit/cheese.
Shooting the nexus mind via glitching through the wall for nightfalls was an exploit/cheese.
Hiding under the platform for winter's run was an exploit/cheese.
Sword jumping across the chasm in crota was an exploit/cheese, as was making everything despawn then completing it. Among other things.

What about final round snipers in trials? Sucks, yes, bad sportsmanship, yes, but is it cheating?

All of these things were corrected by bungie and not labelled as cheating. I think there are a few things in PvP like this as well, but I'm not as avid of a PvPer, so I'd have a harder time to compile a list. Besides, I'm out of time. =)

Cheating != bad sportsmanship. Cheating != exploits. Cheating is breaking the rules. This is working around them. It's still a dick move, and I don't do it nor would I condone it.

Fun fact: "Cheating" isn't actually a term in classifying game bugs. We call them exploits. So exploits == cheating actually. "Cheats" in game design speak are usually in-code debug scripts or unlockable buffs that the players can turn on or off in single player, non-competitive modes (think one hit kills or invincibility in Golden Eye, or the god mode codes in Quake). A player who is using cheats is playing the game as designed, whereas a player who is cheating is using exploits to play the game in a way other than as it was designed. Weird, right?

Here's how I'd have classed these things back when I was testing games (and I was lead tester and database manager, so I was generally the final word on what the things were, which is why I think my opinion is worth anything here):

- Network Manipulation: Exploit of net code, provides advantage to individual players and their teams. Class A bug.
- AFK: Player behavior, NAB (NAB means Not a Bug). Suggestion: add code to prevent/reduce AFK behaviors. Class C bug.
- Aetheon off the ledge: Exploit of AI code (poor design, really, but I'd never say that in the bug report), provides advantage to raid team bypassing intended course of fight. Class A bug.
- Any glitch through a wall in any area: Exploit of map geometry, provides advantage to player and their team, bypassing intended course of fights. Class A bugs (possibly only class B in most cases, with class A reserved for boss fights such as the nexus one listed). Same with Winter's Run.
- Sword jumping across the chasm in crota: Exploit of game mechanics and map geometry (poor design, really, but I wouldn't have said that explicitly in my bug report), allowing player to bypass intended course of encounter. Class A Bug.
- Final Round in snipers: NAB / by design (same with luck in the chamber). Suggest we remove these perks from snipers as they are too powerful in pvp (but this is working as intended and is therefore neither bad sportsmanship nor cheating). Needs NERF.

If any of these need clarification, please let me know. Generally speaking I would not consider any "poor design" exploit (Aetheon, sword over chasm), to be bannable, but I would consider a "bug exploit" to be (geometry clipping, infinite supers, network manipulation).

- No text -

I just want to go on record as saying that it's still cheating regardless of whether or not everyone is doing it. Two wrongs and all that. You're exploiting a bug in the code to cause the game to behave in a way other than was intended and reaping a benefit by doing so. That's cheating.

I would say if you aren't reaping a benefit you aren't cheating, you are just making the game less than what it was intended.

So if everyone in baseball uses steroids, which are explicitly illegal in the bylaws of baseball, none of them are cheating according to you?

- No text -

- No text -

Don't want to be banned? Don't cheat. It's really easy to figure out.

But my whole point is that not playing as intended =/= cheating, necessarily. We're just going in circles at this point, I just feel very strongly that the focus here should be on Bungie fixing their mistake ASAP, not on punishing players for using abilities that the game allows in order to win.

The players are NOT using their ability to win, they're using bugs in Bungie's code. Yes, Bungie should fix it asap, but the onus is definitely on the players who are voluntarily and knowingly cheating.

Hammer Bros is shitty design. People using hammer bros are not cheaters because they are using them as designed, regardless of how unbalanced that design may be.

Infinite shadow shot is cheating. The design clearly states 3 shots. People who get a 4th shot have cheated, and should be banned. This is one of the most cut and dry cases of game cheating I've ever seen.

That doesn't make it not cheating. If everyone speeds, that doesn't magically make speeding legal.

- No text -

I just want to go on record as saying that it's still cheating regardless of whether or not everyone is doing it. Two wrongs and all that. You're exploiting a bug in the code to cause the game to behave in a way other than was intended and reaping a benefit by doing so. That's cheating.

I would say if you aren't reaping a benefit you aren't cheating, you are just making the game less than what it was intended.

So if everyone in baseball uses steroids, which are explicitly illegal in the bylaws of baseball, none of them are cheating according to you?

Okay, I guess I didn't explicitly state that it would have to be within the rules and regulations of the sport. But ultimately no. A game to me is a contest between two entities where the interface they use to compete is equally weighted. Rules are made to make sure that interface is equal.

That doesn't make it not cheating. If everyone speeds, that doesn't magically make speeding legal.

No, but it invalidates your "some players get a benefit other players can't get" argument.

- No text -

Not everyone can play as a Nightstalker right this second when the glitch is still active, though, especially in Iron Banner or Trials. If you don't have a Hunter, or even a Hunter with a high Light Level, you can't run it in those playlists.

So that's not really the case that everyone has equal opportunity to use the exploit.

Not that that should matter.

Not everyone can play as a Nightstalker right this second when the glitch is still active, though, especially in Iron Banner or Trials. If you don't have a Hunter, or even a Hunter with a high Light Level, you can't run it in those playlists.

So that's not really the case that everyone has equal opportunity to use the exploit.

Not that that should matter.

To be clear: I've always been on the side of the argument that playing the game in a way that wasn't intended (and offers ANY sort of advantage to one person over another - BXR, Superjumping, Shadowshot, whatever) is bad form, and should be frowned upon. I don't know that I think that players should get banned - especially when the exploit was found literally 2 days ago, and Bungie hasn't even commented on it yet (aside from that post DeeJ made on Reddit).

Don't want to be banned? Don't cheat. It's really easy to figure out.

But my whole point is that not playing as intended =/= cheating, necessarily. We're just going in circles at this point, I just feel very strongly that the focus here should be on Bungie fixing their mistake ASAP, not on punishing players for using abilities that the game allows in order to win.

The big mistake you are making is equating something being possible with it being allowed. I can join a strike and go idle. It's possible. But not allowed. I'll also be banned for it. I can inspect the enemy's gear at the start of a Trials match then back out if they seem too well equipped. It's possible, but likewise is not allowed. This glitch is possible (only because the game is broken!) but it should not be allowed.

To give players a pass on something simply because it is possible is a terrible way to approach this. Sportsmanship, honesty, balance, and fairness need to be taken into account too. Now, maybe it's not worth the time to track and ban them, but in a thoughtful discussion we should always make the distinction between what's possible for a player to do and the things that shouldn't (and should!) be allowed.

I guess I'm not really arguing they should be banned, either. I have mixed feelings on that front.

I just think it is important (at least somewhat) to recognize that it IS cheating, and in poor form. If the community as a whole looks at stuff like this and just thinks, "Oh, that's Bungie's bad, let's go crazy until they fix it," we end up with a poor experience all around.

I just want to go on record as saying that it's still cheating regardless of whether or not everyone is doing it. Two wrongs and all that. You're exploiting a bug in the code to cause the game to behave in a way other than was intended and reaping a benefit by doing so. That's cheating.

I would say if you aren't reaping a benefit you aren't cheating, you are just making the game less than what it was intended.

So if everyone in baseball uses steroids, which are explicitly illegal in the bylaws of baseball, none of them are cheating according to you?

Okay, I guess I didn't explicitly state that it would have to be within the rules and regulations of the sport. But ultimately no. A game to me is a contest between two entities where the interface they use to compete is equally weighted. Rules are made to make sure that interface is equal.

But in this case the interface clearly states that the quiver perk gives you a total of 3 shadow shots (the rules), and then players have found a bug to exploit which gives them more than that (the cheat). Both players having access to the means of cheating doesn't make it less of a cheat.

Indeed. There should be no punishment before a proper warning is issued and a long enough time is given for everyone to get the message.

Don't want to be banned? Don't cheat. It's really easy to figure out.

But my whole point is that not playing as intended =/= cheating, necessarily. We're just going in circles at this point, I just feel very strongly that the focus here should be on Bungie fixing their mistake ASAP, not on punishing players for using abilities that the game allows in order to win.

The big mistake you are making is equating something being possible with it being allowed. I can join a strike and go idle. It's possible. But not allowed. I'll also be banned for it. I can inspect the enemy's gear at the start of a Trials match then back out if they seem too well equipped. It's possible, but likewise is not allowed. This glitch is possible (only because the game is broken!) but it should not be allowed.

To give players a pass on something simply because it is possible is a terrible way to approach this. Sportsmanship, honesty, balance, and fairness need to be taken into account too. Now, maybe it's not worth the time to track and ban them, but in a thoughtful discussion we should always make the distinction between what's possible for a player to do and the things that shouldn't (and should!) be allowed.

The mistake YOU'RE making is that you're putting all exploits in the same pool. The ones you mentioned that folks are getting banned for? Bungie SAID they would ban if people kept doing them. Then they banned.

This is definitely an exploit. It'll definitely get fixed, and it's possible that they'll tell us that BEFORE it gets fixed, if you keep using it, you'll be banned - but until they do, it's not really reasonable (or, in fact, with any precedent, as far as Bungie is concerned) to simply ban players for doing it.

Yes, it's an obvious exploit. Yes, I consider it cheating (in PvP). Yes, I think there should be consequences - but there should be a warning first. And we haven't had one.

The rules DON'T allow it. It's a glitch, unintended.

The rules are the game code. The rules clearly allow it, since you don't have to modify the game in any way to do this.

- No text -

It's not really cheating. It's simply using a combination of interacting game elements to your advantage. That being said, such elements interacting the way they do is not good for the game overall. You patch it and move on, but don't blame people who use it.

That's ridiculous. It's cheating, just like BXR and Superbouncing were cheating back in the day. "But it's in the game!" is such a cop-out argument. It's obviously not intended and is against the way the game is designed to be played.

I agree, it's clearly not intended design. But every game has unintended rule interactions. You can't blame players who capitalize on those to gain an advantage. You simply rewrite the rules to prevent it.

I just want to go on record as saying that it's still cheating regardless of whether or not everyone is doing it. Two wrongs and all that. You're exploiting a bug in the code to cause the game to behave in a way other than was intended and reaping a benefit by doing so. That's cheating.

I would say if you aren't reaping a benefit you aren't cheating, you are just making the game less than what it was intended.

So if everyone in baseball uses steroids, which are explicitly illegal in the bylaws of baseball, none of them are cheating according to you?

Okay, I guess I didn't explicitly state that it would have to be within the rules and regulations of the sport. But ultimately no. A game to me is a contest between two entities where the interface they use to compete is equally weighted. Rules are made to make sure that interface is equal.

But in this case the interface clearly states that the quiver perk gives you a total of 3 shadow shots (the rules), and then players have found a bug to exploit which gives them more than that (the cheat). Both players having access to the means of cheating doesn't make it less of a cheat.

This is unreaonable. Lots of things don't act as the flavor text suggests they should. This is not the player's fault, nor should it be the player's responsibility to try and figure out what's intended, and what isn't.

Lots of guns have hidden perks. They're not listed anywhere - your argument above would suggest that using them is cheating, since the flavor text doesn't tell you about them. That's OBVIOUSLY not what Bungie intended, is it? (My Gjallarhorn, rest its soul, would proximity-detonate, even though NOTHING about the gun written by Bungie mentions this. Once I figured it out, though, you bet your sweet patootie I used it. Not cheating - not specified - okay.)

Yes, I can tell the difference between fair and unfair 'perks', and I can tell that this is a glitch, not a hidden perk. BUT YOU CANNOT BAN PEOPLE WHO CANNOT TELL THAT DIFFERENCE, WITHOUT INFORMING THEM YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT IF THEY DON'T STOP.

I don't consider this "cheating". A glitch, a bug, sure. But it is not the players who are "breaking the game". This isn't like yanking your ethernet cable out of the wall or lag-switching. This is players using a button combination to achieve results that Bungie didn't intend. It should absolutely be fixed, but I don't blame players for using it.

Technically, yanking your Ethernet cable or lag-switching isn't "breaking the game" either. all three cases are players giving Destiny and its servers input that Destiny tries to interpret and fails to do so. These are just cases where Destiny failing to correctly handle it results in the player getting an advantage.

You are manipulating your network stream. That's cheating. If you need something more than just a controller, it's cheating.

The rules are the game code. The rules clearly allow it, since you don't have to modify the game in any way to do this.

I would argue that the rules are the way supers are supposed to work (ie. not being unlimited). Using this exploit is manipulating the game in an unintended manner and thus cheating.

No. The rules for Supers are obviously that you activate and use your Super and then have to wait until it recharges. Additionally, as others have pointed out, the Quiver perk specifically mentions getting three shots. Yes, it is possible to cheat, but that does not make cheating right. Any honest player will avoid such exploits and not even because they might be banned but because it's the right thing to do.

No. The rules for Supers are obviously that you activate and use your Super and then have to wait until it recharges.

Clearly that is not true, otherwise this exploit wouldn't be possible. That's the way it's supposed to work, but that's not the way it's coded to work in this case.

Of course you can blame the players! In Halo players could be kicked for intentional friendly fire. In Destiny players were restricted from activities for idling in Strikes and backing out of Trials matches. So not only is it possible to blame the player for unsporting actions, Bungie has long enforced rules meant to help ensure sportsmanship.

Yes, I can tell the difference between fair and unfair 'perks', and I can tell that this is a glitch, not a hidden perk. BUT YOU CANNOT BAN PEOPLE WHO CANNOT TELL THAT DIFFERENCE, WITHOUT INFORMING THEM YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT IF THEY DON'T STOP.

I get your point, and I agree with it. Folks shouldn't be banned without a warning first. But how many people do you think have done this without knowing it's wrong? I can see doing it once or twice on accident (although I don't know anyone that opens their inventory with an active super, but I'm sure it happens occasionally), but past that, it's very obviously a glitch and very obviously "wrong."

No matter how you say it exploting this bug is unsportsmanlike. Personally, I think intentional unsportsmanlike actions should result in punishments after a fair warning.

Yes, I can tell the difference between fair and unfair 'perks', and I can tell that this is a glitch, not a hidden perk. BUT YOU CANNOT BAN PEOPLE WHO CANNOT TELL THAT DIFFERENCE, WITHOUT INFORMING THEM YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT IF THEY DON'T STOP.

I get your point, and I agree with it. Folks shouldn't be banned without a warning first. But how many people do you think have done this without knowing it's wrong? I can see doing it once or twice on accident (although I don't know anyone that opens their inventory with an active super, but I'm sure it happens occasionally), but past that, it's very obviously a glitch and very obviously "wrong."

Yeah, I'm with you on that - but it doesn't change the fact that you don't ban people without telling them what you're doing it for, ahead of time. ;)

No. The rules for Supers are obviously that you activate and use your Super and then have to wait until it recharges.

Clearly that is not true, otherwise this exploit wouldn't be possible. That's the way it's supposed to work, but that's not the way it's coded to work in this case.

So you're saying when your game crashes, that's the intended behavior because it's in the code? This is a silly argument. Actual code and design intentions are two very different things.

I don't consider this "cheating". A glitch, a bug, sure. But it is not the players who are "breaking the game". This isn't like yanking your ethernet cable out of the wall or lag-switching. This is players using a button combination to achieve results that Bungie didn't intend. It should absolutely be fixed, but I don't blame players for using it.

Technically, yanking your Ethernet cable or lag-switching isn't "breaking the game" either. all three cases are players giving Destiny and its servers input that Destiny tries to interpret and fails to do so. These are just cases where Destiny failing to correctly handle it results in the player getting an advantage.

You are manipulating your network stream. That's cheating. If you need something more than just a controller, it's cheating.

They're both cheating. If you do something the software doesn't expect which results in you gaining an advantage, that's cheating. Pulling the network cable and accessing your menu mid-super with a specific perk active both result in situations the code wasn't designed to handle. Bungie should fix them both, but in the mean time, they are both still cheating.

(ok, not really lol)

The timing of the discovery of this cheat is really bad because of impending Trials. I don't want to play shadowshot marathon trials and I'm concerned that the time it takes to implement the ban post-warning will still give cheaters plenty of time to enter the lighthouse on the back of their cheating cheathorses, while keeping honest folk out of said fabled destination.

Issuing a warning first is only fair.

But man, I'm afraid it's going to do nothing when it comes to this weekend's Trials.

Absolutely. I realize I didn't specifically ask for a warning here, but I was arguing that this was cheating more than I was arguing the response to it.

I'd like to see today's Thupdate start with "okay, you've had your fun" and finish with "any further cheating will result in temporary bans, followed by permanent ones for accounts which persist in this behavior."

I'd also like to see other forms of cheating which have previously had warnings (lag-switching, the perpetual thorn in the Iron Banner's side) met with bans today.

On my first read through I thought you listed both lag switching and Thorn as examples of cheating and was ready to agree with you. :p

- No text -

- No text -

Just as with the offending gameplay, not everyone does access to the BWUpdate, even though they can (everyone can build a Hunter, after all).

Bannable offenses should be displayed within the game, IMO. But by all means, do warn in the BWUpdate as well.

No matter how you say it exploting this bug is unsportsmanlike. Personally, I think intentional unsportsmanlike actions should result in punishments after a fair warning.

Good thing there's been no warning yet.

They're both cheating. If you do something the software doesn't expect which results in you gaining an advantage, that's cheating.

Combos were not programmed intentionally into Street Fighter 2, but were the unanticipated result of several mechanics coming together. So comboing moves into each other is cheating? Your definition is way too broad.

Heh. Didn't think you'd go so far as actually endorsing cheating. But whatever's. :)

emergent gameplay is not the same thing as cheating. In the case of shadow shot, it's really cut and dry that it's cheating and your obstinance in the face of that is really disappointing.

If your opponent is incapable of combo-ing and you did it anyway, yes, you were cheating.

If you play a board game against someone who doesn't knows the rules as you're playing, yes, you're cheating.

If you intentionally trigger an infinite Super on people who have no way of doing the same, yes, you're cheating.

Now, is it morally reproachable? Yes, it is.

Is it fair to make it a banable offense retroactively? That's debatable. I am of opinion that no, it isn't fair. You maybe didn't know your opponent couldn't combo. Maybe you didn't know your opponent didn't know the rules. And...

...

Interesting, I can't come up with a morally grounded excuse for using infinite Shadowshot. Still, I don't think it should be a retroactively banable offense.

- No text -

Interesting, I can't come up with a morally grounded excuse for using infinite Shadowshot. Still, I don't think it should be a retroactively banable offense.

All I'm saying. Fix the exploit with a patch, move on, and don't cry "cheater!" and witch hunt in the meantime.

Not because I think it's right, but because I find incredible joy in other people being upset.

- No text -

I think one of the biggest smiles I've ever had was when my nephew cried on vacation because we were listening to Joe Walsh and he hates Joe Walsh. God, I loved that.

Unfortunately I have a conscience, so I don't troll, but I just get this true, profound, better than sex joy in those "sucks to be him, but I'm all right" meaningless moments. If everyone who did that glitch got banned for a week, I'd be beside myself with joy.

It's not like theyre doing it with a gun to their head.

It honestly sounded like you were trying to morally justify the usage of the exploit and absolve most kinds of unfair advantages out there.

- No text -

Sunbreakers are a glitch wherever they go, Nightstalkers get this, and us Stormcallers?

- No text -

It's not like theyre doing it with a gun to their head.

Not to mention, it's not like they have to stop playing their character, they can just NOT use the glitch and play it normally.

Yeah, why would you be mad at the asshole abusing a glitch to win at a videogame? It's totally Bungie's fault. After all, they're literally forcing people to do it.

Sigh.

It's bad that it exists. I'm stunned that it made it through testing (lol what testing?). It's definitely Bungie's fault it's possible to do. It's not their fault people are doing it - that's just people being s**tty and choosing to intentionally hurt other people's experiences using a method they know is abusive for their own gain. Don't give them a scapegoat for their bad behaviour.