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Why do people not like the grenades? Other than the NEW one, they both can kill all by themselves. That's a pretty HUGE deal in my opinion. Everything else you said I basically agree with, but I love the grenades on the Sunbreaker.

Very well put. I have really noticed how many people just run and hide. Yeah, SunBreaker ult is great, but you can't get kills when people just run from you.

My greatest complaint with Bungie is that they hold Titans to be the front line class, the class that goes head first to break the enemy line. And then... their melee is a piece of shit. Every other melee in the game is better than the Titans! The shoulder charge is the only thing that comes close to a good melee and it's not really a melee!

Okay, rant over.

Lots of good points. I made a similar post a couple weeks ago when talking about various PvP builds. I too run Gunslinger, basically for all the points that you've mentioned. I find gunslingers and voidwalkers have the most effective skill trees when it comes to PvP.

Where Sunbreakers are a major problem is in 6v6 gametypes when chaining supers becomes a thing. Going up against a team of 4 or 5 sunbreakers who all know what they're doing is not a fun experience. But take supers out of the equation, and I think hunters are far more effective.

When TTK dropped, I was determined to be a Sunbreaker... That hammer just had so much appeal to me. I started out down the path to Sunbreaking, and it was glorious. I couldn't wait to get to PvP and chuck some hammers. Once I leveled the subclass a bit, I starting running in PvP and it was sooo satisfying. Damage reduction, health regen, plenty of OHK hammers. It was great.... At least when I had my super. I set up my gear to max intellect - with discipline as a secondary focus. When my super came, I wrecked.... The early days were so wonderful.

Then... Word got out (literally like the week TTK dropped) - Hammers are OP. You hear that *CLANG* and you run... Even if you are Sunbreaking. This Super was the Super to end all Supers... And, honestly it is probably the best overall super in the game.

All of the sudden, things changed. My super was still very difficult to stop, but most people just ran. It became harder and harder to get kills with. My play of the Sunbreaker became less about the Super, and more about the non-super times (grenades, Melee, shooting)... I started to realize something... The Titan Melee SUCKS. Sunbreaker Grenades are not great (AKA top Tier). I would get 2, maybe 3 supers a game, and in increasingly more and more games, find less and less people to hit (as they all just ran). Unless the map was Thieves Den (Make 1 lap... KILL EVERYTHING).

So... I decided to try out my Gunslinger again in the new Crucible. I had saved the Ahamkara Spine arms (wanted to try out Double Trip Mines). Pre-TTK, my K/D was around 1.6 on my Gunslinger, and 1.2 on my Striker... In TTK I was around 1.2 with Sunbreaker.

In my first few games running as a Gunslinger again... I averaged 1.7 K/D over the first 5 games... I was getting noticeably more kills, particularly with Trip Mines (Double! and Armor levels are lower). Add in double throwing knives and I had SO MANY MORE TOOLS, plus and insane Super I can get 3-4 times in a game...

I started to realize something... If you consider all aspects of a Subclass, honestly I think Gunslingers are way better than Sunbreakers. The problem is... The Sunbreaker has one ability that outshines every other subclass (and it's own tool belt) in such a noticeable way, that people HATE it.

Honestly, my Gunslinger is OP. Two tripmines is insane with the new armor Meta. Golden Gun still trumps all (except Sunbreaker 50% of the time and even then, you can usually kill them and live if you are ready), and throwing knives are a hugely useful PvP tool. Also, Double Jump is very easy to use offensively (lift, not so much).

My opinion: Bungie gave Sunbreakers an incredible super because Titan's are weak in the neutral game. This strength is so strong, everyone notices it and complains. Sunbreakers will be nerfed (in the super department), and the class will be mediocre because the grenades, melee and jump are just OK or bad. Meanwhile, my Gunslinger is a PvP monster, and no one cares (which is good news for me... :).

Subtle and varied perks and strengths go unnoticed (even when they stack well in PvP), but a relatively weak subclass (Non Supering sunbreaker) with a CRAZY powerful super gets called OP because it's singular strength is very strong.

Overall, I think Titans need better grenades and melee or neutral game buff. Defender bubble should be indestructible. Nerf Sunbreaker Super, but buff the neutral game. And Boom, it's all good.

I'm going to keep running Gunslinger though... These guys are sick.

Heh - I disagree with a lot of this.

I play mostly as a Titan (and a Sunbreaker, these days), with my Hunter (Bladedancing) about a third of the time in crucible. I'll agree that folks run from hammers - so popping at the right time is important. (I get it wrong more than I get it right, which is why I often get one or two (or zero!) kills, with occasional triples and breakers.)

But the Sunbreaker punch is godly. I rarely play a Warlock, so I never had experience with a punch that keeps on giving... but it's SOO satisfying to punch someone who got the drop on you, and watch the DoT kill him over time. (From my death cam, of course. :) ) If I use it the way it's MEANT to be used, he dies, and I'm already somewhere else doing more damage. I don't understand why you say it's weak.

And grenades? I've gotten more Get It Off! medals in the past two weeks than I got in Destiny's first year. Sunbreaker's sticky is awesome.

I run max discipline with the Spine. Trip mines are my primary weapon in mayhem. Even in regular crucible, the mines stay up 30 seconds and the cooldown is only 25 seconds. I can hold down control points alone. It's an amazingly good build.

On top of that, I really like the Byronic Hero handcannon from the crucible vendor. It has a perfect vertical recoil. I can aim center mass and rapid fire, with the third shot being a headshot. It's also got 3rd eye so I can get the first shot off on people rounding corners. Couple that with Chaperone and a fast reloading Ruin Wake, and I've got the best PvP loadout yet.

Titans are terrible in PvP.

Seriously, warlocks have a shotgun-range melee that can get overshield on hit. Hunters have a melee that's a throwing knife which can have wicked range for a melee (tho' it does require finesse to use well). Titans, the tanks, melee the range of an intimate hug that can get overshield only if it's the finishing blow, oh, and it doesn't proc if you melee them twice to get the kill.

Maybe this could be okay if the titan melee was insanely fast, and recharged much quicker, but it isn't and doesn't and warlocks snipe me with their melees from 1/2 way across the room. It's my opinion that the warlock & titan overshield on hit/kill should be swapped. :) (no, I don't have a bone to pick, no chip on my shoulder-charge either) ;)

This and increased agility is why I use my Hunter in PvP. Maybe I should try my Warlock again. He hasn't been used in PvP or PvE since the Dark Below...

I actually completely agree with your assessment. The problem is the super chaining that happens. My hunter (as Gunslinger or Nighstalker) is pretty much always near if not at the top of the scoreboard until late game. Then what's been happening lately is because of supers coming into play everyone gets orbs and more and more supers come out, and I fall behind because while my Hunter can get a ton of kills, it can't always outpace Sunbreakers and Stormcallers constantly getting kills with their supers. I'll even usually end the game with 1-3 higher K/D then everyone above me, and even sometimes the same number, if not more, kills. There absolutely needs to be some balance, but I think it's not a Sunbreaker nerf, I think it's a Hammer of Sol nerf and a Sunbreaker buff (and a striker buff... and a defender buff...).