Elemental primaries being left behind.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=182703638&postcount=6755

" Elemental primaries are being left behind. They had the distinct and undesirable property of limiting a broad weapon sandbox to a few weapons.

You're free to disagree, but I strongly prefer the breadth of arsenal options, the potential of finding a better Legendary than you have to being stuck because of a damage color.

Additionally, no Legendary weapons with damage colors has the property of making secondaries and heavies more important because of their damage color."

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Cause I do.

EDIT:

I'll elaborate. It seems like Bungie is taking fun out of the game to make it harder. But, if I kill Oryx on hard, I should get a pretty huge benefit. I should GET aa really good gun with benefits. Right now, what's the point of hard mode? To have slightly higher numbers to make things almost unnoticeably easier?

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Cause I do.

EDIT:

I'll elaborate. It seems like Bungie is taking fun out of the game to make it harder. But, if I kill Oryx on hard, I should get a pretty huge benefit. I should GET aa really good gun with benefits. Right now, what's the point of hard mode? To have slightly higher numbers to make things almost unnoticeably easier?

That's not at all what he said though. They aren't trying to make the game harder, they're trying to make it so there isn't a single good weapon (or one of each type) because it happens to also have an element. I think the only other way they could do that is to make all the guns have an element type.

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I didn't say that he said they were doing it to make the game harder. I just said that they are making it harder.

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I didn't say that he said they were doing it to make the game harder. I just said that they are making it harder.

"It seems like Bungie is taking fun out of the game to make it harder."

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Cause I do.

EDIT:

I'll elaborate. It seems like Bungie is taking fun out of the game to make it harder. But, if I kill Oryx on hard, I should get a pretty huge benefit. I should GET aa really good gun with benefits. Right now, what's the point of hard mode? To have slightly higher numbers to make things almost unnoticeably easier?

That's not at all what he said though. They aren't trying to make the game harder, they're trying to make it so there isn't a single good weapon (or one of each type) because it happens to also have an element.

The thing is, Elemental damage was never the reason that certain primaries were used so much more than all the others. Look at how many people stuck with a 300 Fatebringer all the way through Crota's End hard mode, even though none of the enemies had Arc shields. What made Fatebringer special was the insane combo of perks.

On the flip side, look how rarely the Crota's End primaries were used. Aside from Fang of Ir Yut, they were all "average-or-worse" in terms of their overall effectiveness, even with their elemental properties.

I think Bungie nailed end-game loot with Trials of Osiris. The Trials weapons were all good, reliable guns that handled very well... but none of them had the Godlike power of Fatebringer (aside from the Messenger in PvP). The Adept versions added a little extra bonus perk (elemental damage) to give those weapons a situational edge, but again nothing game breaking.

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The thing is, Elemental damage was never the reason that certain primaries were used so much more than all the others. Look at how many people stuck with a 300 Fatebringer all the way through Crota's End hard mode, even though none of the enemies had Arc shields. What made Fatebringer special was the insane combo of perks.

That was also because it was the BEST of the elemental primaries though. I think even if you took Firefly out of Fatebringer people still would've used it, but it would've been balanced slightly by Fang of Ir Yut and Oversoul Edict. Heck I knew people that used Abyss Defiant quite a bit, and I even used Word of Crota against the Vex in PoE. Any time there was a burn it was almost insane to NOT use a primary element that matched, and most people I know did if they had one. The fact that now I can stick to the guns I actually love without feeling like I'm handicapping myself seems a lot better. I am hoping they come out with more Exotic primaries with an element, but mostly because you are paying the price (an exotic slot) to use that element type.

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What if elemental burn was a random perk on the middle tree? That way any weapon could possibly have an elemental ability, but you have to give up something else for it.

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What if elemental burn was a random perk on the middle tree? That way any weapon could possibly have an elemental ability, but you have to give up something else for it.

That wouldn't be too bad, but I personally think it'd be better to have to be something like an exotic material you apply to your weapon.

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The thing is, Elemental damage was never the reason that certain primaries were used so much more than all the others. Look at how many people stuck with a 300 Fatebringer all the way through Crota's End hard mode, even though none of the enemies had Arc shields. What made Fatebringer special was the insane combo of perks.

That was also because it was the BEST of the elemental primaries though. I think even if you took Firefly out of Fatebringer people still would've used it, but it would've been balanced slightly by Fang of Ir Yut and Oversoul Edict.

I'd argue that Fatebringer without Arc damage would get used every bit as often as it did with arc damage. The lone exception would be during nightfalls/PoE when burns are in play.

Heck I knew people that used Abyss Defiant quite a bit, and I even used Word of Crota against the Vex in PoE. Any time there was a burn it was almost insane to NOT use a primary element that matched, and most people I know did if they had one. The fact that now I can stick to the guns I actually love without feeling like I'm handicapping myself seems a lot better.

Except we're being handicapped now, not the other way around. In year 1, you could use your favorite weapon, or switch to a primary with elemental damage if you wanted that extra edge. Now, we have no edge. The option to use whatever weapon we want was always there. We've had an option removed, not added.

I am hoping they come out with more Exotic primaries with an element, but mostly because you are paying the price (an exotic slot) to use that element type.

I think this would be a great solution.

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Except we're being handicapped now, not the other way around. In year 1, you could use your favorite weapon, or switch to a primary with elemental damage if you wanted that extra edge. Now, we have no edge. The option to use whatever weapon we want was always there. We've had an option removed, not added.

I don't agree we are handicapped now. The old encounters are still there and we can use our old elemental weapons in them just fine. With the newly designed encounters we don't have access to elemental primaries at all (with exception of the Supercell), and never did for these encounters. Not having an advantage that never existed for these encounters isn't a handicap.

I am hoping they come out with more Exotic primaries with an element, but mostly because you are paying the price (an exotic slot) to use that element type.

I think this would be a great solution.

Bungie, please :)

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Except we're being handicapped now, not the other way around. In year 1, you could use your favorite weapon, or switch to a primary with elemental damage if you wanted that extra edge. Now, we have no edge. The option to use whatever weapon we want was always there. We've had an option removed, not added.

I don't agree we are handicapped now. The old encounters are still there and we can use our old elemental weapons in them just fine. With the newly designed encounters we don't have access to something at all, and never did for these encounters. Not having an advantage that never existed for these encounters isn't a handicap.

Let me rephrase: Any time we are choosing a primary weapon, we are judging it based on a range of criteria. Do I like the way it handles? Am I fighting at long rang/close range? What perks would be beneficial in this situation? Etc. In year 1, one of the criteria we could consider was would Elemental damage be useful here? If so, is it worth sacrificing the benefits provided by some of my other primaries?.

Elemental damage output was one of the things we could take into consideration when choosing a weapon. Now it isn't. An option has been removed.

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Let me rephrase: Any time we are choosing a primary weapon, we are judging it based on a range of criteria. Do I like the way it handles? Am I fighting at long rang/close range? What perks would be beneficial in this situation? Etc. In year 1, one of the criteria we could consider was would Elemental damage be useful here? If so, is it worth sacrificing the benefits provided by some of my other primaries?.

Elemental damage output was one of the things we could take into consideration when choosing a weapon. Now it isn't. An option has been removed.

Yeah I agree with that wording, I just don't see it as a bad thing. To each their own! :)

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Let me rephrase: Any time we are choosing a primary weapon, we are judging it based on a range of criteria. Do I like the way it handles? Am I fighting at long rang/close range? What perks would be beneficial in this situation? Etc. In year 1, one of the criteria we could consider was would Elemental damage be useful here? If so, is it worth sacrificing the benefits provided by some of my other primaries?.

The problem was that the answer was always in the affirmative. The elemental primaries were overwhelmingly the best options all the time.

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I am hoping they come out with more Exotic primaries with an element, but mostly because you are paying the price (an exotic slot) to use that element type.

I think this would be a great solution.

Bungie, please :)

I'd be happy with this, too.

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Luckily, Cody posted a link to a thread he made, and I reread it and noticed I posted.

To make up for the lack of elements they would have to have godly rolls on raid guns to entice people to play regularly, and if Bingle does one thing well, it's communicate how little they want us to have really good rolls. So, elemental guns are a great way to make guns super desirable but still balance them in game, and in PVP, where elements mean nothing, so people aren't using their amazing raid guns.

I like reading things I've said in the past and agreeing with myself. It makes up for the majority of the time when I read things I said and think "what a dumbass."

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Luckily, Cody posted a link to a thread he made, and I reread it and noticed I posted.

To make up for the lack of elements they would have to have godly rolls on raid guns to entice people to play regularly, and if Bingle does one thing well, it's communicate how little they want us to have really good rolls. So, elemental guns are a great way to make guns super desirable but still balance them in game, and in PVP, where elements mean nothing, so people aren't using their amazing raid guns.

I like reading things I've said in the past and agreeing with myself. It makes up for the majority of the time when I read things I said and think "what a dumbass."

Right?

Honestly, some of the raid guns are really good. The HMG is *amazing* and the best gun in the whole raid, imo, but the pulse rifle, scout rifle, and sniper are nothing to sneeze at, either. Touch of Malice is really good, too.

The best gear in the raid, however, is the armor, which certainly has godly rolls.

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I agree, the machine gun is the best gun. The other guns you mentioned are perfectly fine, too...but they're not good enough for me to want to use them.

I use the raid machine gun, one of 4 snipers or fusions, none of which are the raid ones, and two non raid primaries if I can get by with lower light. If not, I use the pulse rifle. The other raid guns have been bad, so I infuse the Apple of Discord or whatever.

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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=182703638&postcount=6755

" Elemental primaries are being left behind. They had the distinct and undesirable property of limiting a broad weapon sandbox to a few weapons.

You're free to disagree, but I strongly prefer the breadth of arsenal options, the potential of finding a better Legendary than you have to being stuck because of a damage color.

Additionally, no Legendary weapons with damage colors has the property of making secondaries and heavies more important because of their damage color."

That's too bad. I enjoyed elemental primaries quite a bit. At the very least, I wish some of the new exotic primaries did elemental damage. Given how underwhelming many of them are, elemental damage would help make them stand out.

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The ZHalo Supercell does arc damage as a primary.

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The ZHalo Supercell does arc damage as a primary.

And so far it's the only one that does, despite there being several Exotic primaries now, off the top of my head....

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I always thought it would be neat if all weapons had a randomly rolled element. You could ever make elemental weapons not as effective on non-shielded enemies, a throwback to the plasma weapons of Halo. And would give a reason for non-elementals to still exist.

I might live in some crazy fantasy land though.

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I agree that they were too powerful during burns, but non-elemental weapons suck against harder enemies with shields. I'd love to see a perk like "deals bonus damage to arc shields" or something. The gun doesn't have to be pure arc damage, but I want it to do *something* to shielded foes.

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I agree that they were too powerful during burns, but non-elemental weapons suck against harder enemies with shields. I'd love to see a perk like "deals bonus damage to arc shields" or something. The gun doesn't have to be pure arc damage, but I want it to do *something* to shielded foes.

That is what specials and heavies are for. The game would be boring if your primary could rip through everything.

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I agree that they were too powerful during burns, but non-elemental weapons suck against harder enemies with shields. I'd love to see a perk like "deals bonus damage to arc shields" or something. The gun doesn't have to be pure arc damage, but I want it to do *something* to shielded foes.

That is what specials and heavies are for. The game would be boring if your primary could rip through everything.

So if you're out of special and heavy ammo, you should just burn all of your primary ammo and wait 60 seconds for the automatic ammo refresh before you even bother trying to kill the shielded guy? Because that's what I do right now and it sucks.

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I agree that they were too powerful during burns, but non-elemental weapons suck against harder enemies with shields. I'd love to see a perk like "deals bonus damage to arc shields" or something. The gun doesn't have to be pure arc damage, but I want it to do *something* to shielded foes.

That is what specials and heavies are for. The game would be boring if your primary could rip through everything.

So if you're out of special and heavy ammo, you should just burn all of your primary ammo and wait 60 seconds for the automatic ammo refresh before you even bother trying to kill the shielded guy? Because that's what I do right now and it sucks.

That's what special and heavy ammo synthesis are for!

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I agree that they were too powerful during burns, but non-elemental weapons suck against harder enemies with shields. I'd love to see a perk like "deals bonus damage to arc shields" or something. The gun doesn't have to be pure arc damage, but I want it to do *something* to shielded foes.

That is what specials and heavies are for. The game would be boring if your primary could rip through everything.

Fatebringer was NEVER boring ;)

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http://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?&id=85758

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That said, it looks like we've already had the discussion this thread is going to turn into. Lovely!

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I've been saying that Elemental primaries limit the sandbox and devalue Special weapons long before you decided to steal yet another of my ideas, man.

My argument always called for a compromise, such as only Exotic primaries doing elemental damage (and since Zhalo does Arc, I can claim that Bungie stole my idea! #kornywasright!)

I think this is a good thing for the sandbox, even if there won't be much reason to visit the lighthouse if your weapons aren't as prestigious... (though I'm assuming you'll get 320 gear from the chest).

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I've been saying that Elemental primaries limit the sandbox and devalue Special weapons long before you decided to steal yet another of my ideas, man.

I don't ever recall reading you saying that. Great minds think alike I guess. Link or search term?

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I don't see why there can't be some sort of ultra rare drop thing, maybe hard raid drop, that could be used like glass spindle to reroll your damage type on a weapon (vs armor stats).

Problem solved, no?

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I don't see why there can't be some sort of ultra rare drop thing, maybe hard raid drop, that could be used like glass spindle to reroll your damage type on a weapon (vs armor stats).

Problem solved, no?

No. Because then, before long, many players would have that "ultra rare" drop which they will apply to their favorite primary weapon and then they will virtually cease to use any other weapon. We would be right back where we were with people using only one weapon the vast majority of their time.

The weapon sandbox "meta" right now is in the best place it has ever been since even the Alpha. There is a vast range of weapons that are viable in any given situation. You can actually be very competitive in the Crucible with any weapon type - something we have not been able to say since the Alpha. I am constantly trying new weapons in PvE because there are no Fatebringers/Vision of Confluences in year two. As much as I loved my six Fatebringers, I am so glad that there is a lack of dominant elemental primaries with ridiculous perk combinations. Even if it were just an "ultra rare" drop that allowed you to do that to one gun - that's all it would take to get us back to that stale meta before long.

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No. Because then, before long, many players would have that "ultra rare" drop which they will apply to their favorite primary weapon and then they will virtually cease to use any other weapon. We would be right back where we were with people using only one weapon the vast majority of their time.

The weapon sandbox "meta" right now is in the best place it has ever been since even the Alpha. There is a vast range of weapons that are viable in any given situation. You can actually be very competitive in the Crucible with any weapon type - something we have not been able to say since the Alpha. I am constantly trying new weapons in PvE because there are no Fatebringers/Vision of Confluences in year two. As much as I loved my six Fatebringers, I am so glad that there is a lack of dominant elemental primaries with ridiculous perk combinations. Even if it were just an "ultra rare" drop that allowed you to do that to one gun - that's all it would take to get us back to that stale meta before long.

Uhhhh, no? We used VOC and FB for their perks and stats. There's no reason to use them exclusively outside of PoE or NF when there's an elemental burn. There's no advantage to using elemental damage in PvP last time I checked.

If there's currently a 'vast range of weapons viable in any situation' there's nothing stopping them from still being viable with some consumable that only adds an element to them.

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The weapon sandbox "meta" right now is in the best place it has ever been since even the Alpha. There is a vast range of weapons that are viable in any given situation.

IMO, that is nothing new. The same was true for year 1 as well.

You can actually be very competitive in the Crucible with any weapon type - something we have not been able to say since the Alpha.

I'm not sure about that... I agree that the balance is much better than before, but I'm already seeing a drastic swing towards Pulse Rifles. I doubt we'll such much other than PRs in Trials.

I am constantly trying new weapons in PvE because there are no Fatebringers/Vision of Confluences in year two. As much as I loved my six Fatebringers, I am so glad that there is a lack of dominant elemental primaries with ridiculous perk combinations.

I added the bold there, because IMO the perk combinations were what made those weapons dominant, not the elemental damage. I've said this before, but just look at Crota's End. Not a single Arc shield to be seen in the whole raid, and yet level 300 Fatebringers were still the go-to weapon for almost everyone who had one.

The solution, IMO, is to not include weapons with insanely powerful perk combos... and they've pretty much done that already. Elemental damage was never the problem.

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with primary elementals, my primary weapon selection got broken down to elemental and never use again.

Unless they were to nerf the primary elementals in such a way that they're not much use outside of their elemental nature, maybe

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It seems weird that there's a lone Elemental primary out there, even if it is an Exotic.

If I want to have all my bases covered I can synergise with my subclass as (presumably) intended, or I can just grab my Supercell to go with my Void secondary and Solar Heavy, using up my Exotic slot. That seems like a fair trade to me, so it seems odd that there wouldn't be one Void and one Solar Exotic primary too.

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It seems weird that there's a lone Elemental primary out there, even if it is an Exotic.

If I want to have all my bases covered I can synergise with my subclass as (presumably) intended, or I can just grab my Supercell to go with my Void secondary and Solar Heavy, using up my Exotic slot. That seems like a fair trade to me, so it seems odd that there wouldn't be one Void and one Solar Exotic primary too.

Presumably Mythoclast and Necrochasm will be getting year 2 versions at some point?

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with primary elementals, my primary weapon selection got broken down to elemental and never use again.

Unless they were to nerf the primary elementals in such a way that they're not much use outside of their elemental nature, maybe

I lean more towards the latter. I still think the Trials of Osiris Adept weapons hit a good sweet spot. They were all effective utility weapons with good stats, but nothing special in the perks department. I'd use them if there were burns at play or if I was fighting a lot of shielded enemies. But I'd just as often use my NL Shadow with full auto, explosive rounds, and firefly because it had such an awesome combo of perks.

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Elemental primaries being left behind. (Destiny)

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Thanks for telling me I'm free to disagree, Luke.

Amen.