Early reports from King's Fall hard mode *Spoilers*

I've been reading up on the King's Fall raid over at NeoGAF... people are NOT happy over there (I know it's NeoGAF, but it's more lopsided than usual).

Seems like there are 2 specific points that people are taking issue with.

1) Loot
2) (lack of) new mechanics.

Loot

First of all, there are lots of reports of players getting loot in the 300-310 range. It sounds like the Kings Fall loot drops function same as the previous raids: If you've already done Normal this week, you'll only get drops from the Hard table. If you haven't raided at all, you'll get drops from both Normal and Hard tables. The chests can only drop loot once per week, so if you've already done Normal you get nothing.

So it makes sense to be able to get 300-310 gear on Hard if you haven't done Normal yet, but it sounds like some people are getting Normal-level drops exclusively, which is a real bummer.

Raid RNG has not been kind to me so far. I've gotten very few weapon/armor drops, and most of what I did get has been in the low 300s. As such, the highest light level I can possibly hit is 306, and that's only with 1 specific weapon loadout. I'd been hoping that Hard mode would be my ticket to cracking 310, but apparently it's not a safe bet. Even if I manage to claw my way through at 306 (which is not likely... people are saying 308-310 is the sweet spot up until Oryx, anything less than 310 at Oryx is a nightmare), I might come out the other side with gear worse than what I already have. On the other hand, I might not. But it still kinda sucks that it is a possibility.

Mechanics

The other area of the raid that is drawing a lot of fire is the mechanics. Apparently, Hard mode is mostly what Bungie said it isn't: Normal mode with tougher enemies. Sounds like there are very few new mechanics at play that are meaningful. Boguester posted this breakdown for anyone who's interested. This doesn't really bother me (I enjoy the Kings Fall mechanics as they are), but it is a bit strange that Bungie went out of their way to talk about Hard mode a certain way. Who knows, maybe NeoGAF is blowing it out of proportion.

Personally, the revelation that there are no new elemental primaries is a disappointment. I'm not a fan of any of the Raid weapons so far, but elemental versions of the primaries would have been a prize worth chasing. I was convinced that Bungie intentionally made the raid primaries somewhat "meh" so that the elemental versions wouldn't be too overpowered when they were finally released. Turns out that all we get are the same weapons and armor, maybe with higher stats.

locked

2304 views

The other area of the raid that is drawing a lot of fire is the mechanics. Apparently, Hard mode is mostly what Bungie said it isn't: Normal mode with tougher enemies. Sounds like there are very few new mechanics at play that are meaningful. Boguester posted this breakdown for anyone who's interested. This doesn't really bother me (I enjoy the Kings Fall mechanics as they are), but it is a bit strange that Bungie went out of their way to talk about Hard mode a certain way. Who knows, maybe NeoGAF is blowing it out of proportion.

Personally, the revelation that there are no new elemental primaries is a disappointment. I'm not a fan of any of the Raid weapons so far, but elemental versions of the primaries would have been a prize worth chasing. I was convinced that Bungie intentionally made the raid primaries somewhat "meh" so that the elemental versions wouldn't be too overpowered when they were finally released. Turns out that all we get are the same weapons and armor, maybe with higher stats.

I must second everything here. I've seen a few videos and reports on the Destiny subreddit, and it's pretty much exactly the same except sometimes you get yellow bar knights, or the boss has a new attack you don't have to really worry about.

I had the same thought about why the new raid primaries weren't amazing. I'm disappointed to find out they're not elemental, but I'm prepared to try the hard mode raid a few times and give it a fair shake. If it doesn't prove to be rewarding, I'll skip it.

locked

2183 views

Mechanics seem to add the most challenge from what I've hard.

Also another source:

"The primary source of increased difficulty is the addition of unique mechanics and the encounters do not put players at severe level disadvantages. Hard mode King's Fall is a harder version of a mechanically complex raid, as advertised. It doesn't feel cheap, and instead rewards skill and communication. Thank you."

locked

2214 views

Very interesting. That goes against what people are saying over at NeoGAF (people who have played it, since they are also describing the drops they got).

Looking forward to trying it for myself. I'm sure it will be fun either way, at least once I get my level up high enough :)

locked

2149 views

I have watched successful runs of the encounters. That post Cruel put up was simplified, but it's fundamentally true. For example, the Warpriest has an attack that changes. When the oculus shows up, he'll captain bubble you or use the hobgoblin thing or the golgoroth bubbles.

That said, the rest of it is fairly accurate. The jumping puzzle doesn't have the platform, but it's the same.

Relic dunking: same.
Totems: same, but with more/harder dudes.
Warpriest: same, but he attacks you after the oculus so you must scatter.
Maze: same.
Golgoroth: shoots more balls, two people get a thing that can make them explode. I've seen this completed using the one pool method, not using two gaze guys. Seems possible for both, but easier with one pool.
Deathsingers: Same, but no cooldown.
Oryx: you get an extra knight near your pillar that will try to detonate your bomb.

The guy you linked to is right. It feels more like VoG than Crota, but it isn't that different. The difficulty in hard mode from the stuff I've seen is no revives. On runs with no deaths, it appears to be just as easy as normal mode, up until Oryx, who's a bastard.

locked

2158 views

Could this be a pro vs... me... Thing here. My raid group died several times in each section and made exactly zero headway against Oryx never once even staggering him. Add in new attacks, more enemies trying to ruin plans, etc would have doomed us completely. Of course we'll all breeze through in a couple of months, but I'm just not seeing the reason for so much ire, I guess.

locked

2184 views

Could this be a pro vs... me... Thing here. My raid group died several times in each section and made exactly zero headway against Oryx never once even staggering him. Add in new attacks, more enemies trying to ruin plans, etc would have doomed us completely. Of course we'll all breeze through in a couple of months, but I'm just not seeing the reason for so much ire, I guess.

I guess my question (and the crux of a lot of the complaining I'm seeing) is this:

were you dying because of new, challenging mechanics that you couldn't master? Or was it because the enemies were just tougher and doing more damage?

locked

2176 views

I'm just not seeing the reason for so much ire, I guess.

I haven't seen any ire. I'm glad the new raid is like it is. I didn't want a huge difference. Cruel said he's just fine with limited changes. Cody's pissed, but he's always pissed at something, so it's easy to discount.

locked

2171 views

Cody's pissed, but he's always pissed at something, so it's easy to discount.

I'm not pissed, I'm just disappointed. Bungie kept saying this one would be different and special. If the premise of this thread is true, then it's just sad that I expected something more.

locked

2177 views

Cody's pissed, but he's always pissed at something, so it's easy to discount.

I'm not pissed, I'm just disappointed. Bungie kept saying this one would be different and special. If the premise of this thread is true, then it's just sad that I expected something more.

I think a lot of people were expecting something more (see my post predicting HM changes). If Bungie had said they "tweaked the raid" to make it easier for Normal Mode, then I think peoples expectations would have been more on par (with what I've surmised from posts around the net today).

locked

2180 views

On runs with no deaths, it appears to be just as easy as normal mode, up until Oryx, who's a bastard.

That's my biggest concern, right there. I'm hearing things like "306-308 is fine up until Oryx, then you really need to be over 310".

Normal raid refuses to drop higher level gear for me, so that means the only way for me to do hard mode is to play most of the raid a few times and hope I get really good drops that let me level up high enough to fight Oryx?

Am I being unreasonable for expecting an activity to be consistent in its level requirements? As in: don't let people get 90 minutes into an activity before they realize they need to go level up for a few more weeks before they can come back and beat it?

locked

2158 views

Am I being unreasonable for expecting an activity to be consistent in its level requirements? As in: don't let people get 90 minutes into an activity before they realize they need to go level up for a few more weeks before they can come back and beat it?

Off topic, I know, but this is basically how I feel about my engineering degree. :P

locked

2172 views

- No text -

locked

2035 views

Yeah but.. systems fail and possibly people get hurt or die when engineers mess up.

If you mess up in a vidja game.. You know.. it doesn't actually matter.

locked

2044 views

If you mess up in a vidja game.. You know.. it doesn't actually matter.

How dare you.

This is my LIFE

locked

2079 views

On runs with no deaths, it appears to be just as easy as normal mode, up until Oryx, who's a bastard.

That's my biggest concern, right there. I'm hearing things like "306-308 is fine up until Oryx, then you really need to be over 310".

Normal raid refuses to drop higher level gear for me, so that means the only way for me to do hard mode is to play most of the raid a few times and hope I get really good drops that let me level up high enough to fight Oryx?

I'm with you on this -- I can get to 307 (up from 306 last week) with a specific gear set, but I still have some serious deficiencies.

Am I being unreasonable for expecting an activity to be consistent in its level requirements? As in: don't let people get 90 minutes into an activity before they realize they need to go level up for a few more weeks before they can come back and beat it?

I think this has been their design all along. In the normal raid it's 290 up until oryx, where it's 300. IIRC this is also how crota hard worked, a lot of it was 33 up until the end, at 34.

locked

2062 views

No, hard was 33 the whole way. Same for vog at 30. Same for Skolas at 35.

It's nice they aren't forcing us to be at 320 for the whole thing.

locked

2068 views

Ran it three times tonight. The new mechanics really are very minor. I don't want to go into spoiler terrotory but almost all the difficulty came from increased health pools/reduced damage. Oryx in particular feels like it's just a gear check,

I'm not too upset, because I feel the raid was pretty strong to start with, but it's definitely not a big change from previous HM raids.

locked

2072 views

No elemental primaries kinda sucks. It's a shame as they would have definitely been an appropriate reward for hard mode completion and I'd been hoping to see them return. Looks like more infusion for my current load out.

locked

2237 views

Mechanics

The other area of the raid that is drawing a lot of fire is the mechanics. Apparently, Hard mode is mostly what Bungie said it isn't: Normal mode with tougher enemies. Sounds like there are very few new mechanics at play that are meaningful. Boguester posted this breakdown for anyone who's interested. This doesn't really bother me (I enjoy the Kings Fall mechanics as they are), but it is a bit strange that Bungie went out of their way to talk about Hard mode a certain way. Who knows, maybe NeoGAF is blowing it out of proportion.

Not reading because I want to be surprised tonight, but seriously? That was the one thing I was legitimately hyped for! Full report after tonight, but why the hell would you say shit that's not true, which is guaranteed to disappoint players who expect you're telling the truth?

Under promise and overdeliver.

locked

2205 views

"If you've already done Normal this week, you'll only get drops from the Hard table."
"The chests can only drop loot once per week, so if you've already done Normal you get nothing."

I'm confused now. I ran the raid on Tuesday so no loot for me? Or only drops from the Hard table?

locked

2132 views

"If you've already done Normal this week, you'll only get drops from the Hard table."
"The chests can only drop loot once per week, so if you've already done Normal you get nothing."

I'm confused now. I ran the raid on Tuesday so no loot for me? Or only drops from the Hard table?

I imagine only drops from the bosses, but nothing out of a chest. So Warpriest & Golgoroth will give you stuff... Not sure about Oryx as things don't drop off his body when you kill it, maybe the chest after killing him is different than the others? I dunno. (nor do I know about the sisters).

locked

2139 views

"If you've already done Normal this week, you'll only get drops from the Hard table."
"The chests can only drop loot once per week, so if you've already done Normal you get nothing."

I'm confused now. I ran the raid on Tuesday so no loot for me? Or only drops from the Hard table?

I imagine only drops from the bosses, but nothing out of a chest. So Warpriest & Golgoroth will give you stuff... Not sure about Oryx as things don't drop off his body when you kill it, maybe the chest after killing him is different than the others? I dunno. (nor do I know about the sisters).

Some random person on reddit said this:

If you completed normal this week, you can still get loot from the Totems chest and from the Daughters chest in Hard Mode. When you completed normal you took the shards out and the chance at normal raid items. That's it.

locked

2143 views

"If you've already done Normal this week, you'll only get drops from the Hard table."
"The chests can only drop loot once per week, so if you've already done Normal you get nothing."

I'm confused now. I ran the raid on Tuesday so no loot for me? Or only drops from the Hard table?

If I understand correctly, the chests only drop loot once per week. So that means the chest after the first portal, after the door, in the maze, and in the piston section.

The bosses will drop loot once per week on normal and once per week on hard. So if you've already done normal, you will get your hard mode drops (keep in mind that "nothing" is a possible drop). If you haven't raided at all this week before you do normal, than the bosses will give you Normal and Hard mode drops.

locked

2161 views

- No text -

locked

2098 views

Off the internet.

[image]

locked

2168 views

- No text -

locked

2052 views

I mean, the hard raid is definitely harder than the normal raid because of mechanics and not that every enemy is 10 light higher.

Also, at least the grind is way easier. Totally don't have to run the raid exclusively and pray for it to drop what you need.

Edit: This comes off bitter, instead of tongue in cheek. I'm not good enough with words to fix that.

I am enjoying the raid, though.

locked

2172 views

I haven't done Hard Mode yet (probably won't for a while; hello, Halo 5!), but from what I've seen, I don't know what folks are complaining about.

Everything I've seen makes it pretty in line with what VoG was with Hard Mode, which seems fine to me. I guess maybe Bungie oversold what the experience was going to be, but I still think there's a fundamental problem with people not tempering their expectations of things.

locked

2114 views

Probablylast is just making fun of it. He said he likes it. I also like it. Better than Crota for sure.

It's sarcasm.

locked

2078 views

Probablylast is just making fun of it. He said he likes it. I also like it. Better than Crota for sure.

It's sarcasm.

No, I totally got that!

I probably shouldn't have replied to his post specifically; I was meaning to comment more on the the thread in general (and on the discussions I've seen on reddit).

locked

2017 views

Everything I've seen makes it pretty in line with what VoG was with Hard Mode, which seems fine to me. I guess maybe Bungie oversold what the experience was going to be, but I still think there's a fundamental problem with people not tempering their expectations of things.

Yeah, this is the problem right here. From yesterday's Bungie Weekly Update:

This time, we followed a subtractive approach by building the mechanics early on. For a long time, we play-tested internally in Hard Mode, treating it as the default experience. Once we were satisfied, we removed them to arrive at the Raid you have already played.

For the mechanics themselves, we shied away from simply increasing sandbox difficulty (not that it won't be harder). You've had time to hone your strategies and develop a rhythm. Some of you might even be able to do it backwards, blindfolded, or upside-down. Hard Mode is going to upset that rhythm. We're going to give you one more plate to spin, and make you think on your feet.

Bunge definitely oversold the experience. I am usually one of the first to say that we as a Destiny community (even here on DBO) have a problem with failing to temper our expectations, but this is not one of those times.

As many of the others here, I very much enjoy this raid, so it isn't that I am disappointed by a general lack of mechanics, and hard mode still feels harder than normal mode - but when you judge the hard mode we got today against what they said yesterday, it falls drastically short of that bar. There are virtually no mechanics that were removed from the hard mode to arrive at the Raid we have already been playing, and there aren't really any extra plates to spin.

locked

2041 views

Yeah, that's the spot right there that got expectations out of whack. Funny thing is if Bungie hadn't said anything at all, I bet most people would be totally fine with the raid as it is (possible loot issues aside). But they painted a word picture that doesn't quite line up with what they shipped.

Again, I don't have a problem with it myself, other than a slight "awe, that's too bad". Our group on PS4 has been having fun thinking up as many inventive ways hard mode could have been different; I'm sure others have done the same, so I get why some people may be a little disappointed.

locked

2052 views

Heck, there were quite a few good ideas floating around on here!

Having to switch sides at the pre-Warpriest doorway unlocking, a gaze-holder debuff at Golgoroth, etc.

locked

2012 views

Heck, there were quite a few good ideas floating around on here!

Having to switch sides at the pre-Warpriest doorway unlocking, a gaze-holder debuff at Golgoroth, etc.

Nobody liked my idea for snipers on the hive ship section :-(

locked

2067 views

- No text -

locked

2074 views

There are even platforms for them!

locked

1971 views

ProbablyLast suggested Oryx be at 320 to troll the players.

Ha!

locked

2053 views

Everything I've seen makes it pretty in line with what VoG was with Hard Mode, which seems fine to me. I guess maybe Bungie oversold what the experience was going to be, but I still think there's a fundamental problem with people not tempering their expectations of things.

To be fair, we had to completely change our Warpriest strategy on hard mode. At least there the mechanic added was small, but it had a fairly large impact. Golgoroth's was small, and everything before that was pretty much exactly the same. Can't vouch for singers / Oryx since we haven't gotten there.

It is nowhere near the "something special" that they sold it as, but still super fun.

locked

2113 views

To be fair, we had to completely change our Warpriest strategy on hard mode.

Up your DpS bro :p

Bur seriously, we killed the Warpriest faster than we've ever done it before. Didn't even realise there was a new mechanic until he was practically dead.

Golgoroth is a very small change but one I quite like. Apparently you can still one-gaze him if you're bad at Destiny though, which astounds me. Shan't spoil the sisters but you could be forgiven for not noticing the change. Oryx is kind of a dick, but I feel like it's mostly just the gear check rather than the new mechanics - the damage reduction is brutal.

locked

2120 views

To be fair, we had to completely change our Warpriest strategy on hard mode.

Up your DpS bro :p

Not everybody in the group had a good sniper. We problem solved instead of just geared up :-p

locked

2043 views

Bur seriously, we killed the Warpriest faster than we've ever done it before. Didn't even realise there was a new mechanic until he was practically dead.

Same. We didn't change anything.

Golgoroth is a very small change but one I quite like. Apparently you can still one-gaze him if you're bad at Destiny though, which astounds me. Shan't spoil the sisters but you could be forgiven for not noticing the change. Oryx is kind of a dick, but I feel like it's mostly just the gear check rather than the new mechanics - the damage reduction is brutal.

One gaze is the ideal pattern, I think. Using multiple gazes you're vulnerable to the bad guys at the bottom since you're staying down there for so long. No revives makes it a much easier solution. Since losing guys in hard mode can ruin a run, you must choose a strategy that has a smaller likelihood of death. That's one gaze.

locked

1999 views

Golgoroth is a very small change but one I quite like. Apparently you can still one-gaze him if you're bad at Destiny though, which astounds me. Shan't spoil the sisters but you could be forgiven for not noticing the change. Oryx is kind of a dick, but I feel like it's mostly just the gear check rather than the new mechanics - the damage reduction is brutal.

One gaze is the ideal pattern, I think. Using multiple gazes you're vulnerable to the bad guys at the bottom since you're staying down there for so long. No revives makes it a much easier solution. Since losing guys in hard mode can ruin a run, you must choose a strategy that has a smaller likelihood of death. That's one gaze.

This makes me sad.

locked

1977 views

Just as safe, or maybe safer since there's less adds to kill.

locked

1973 views

At a minimum, there are 3x as many cursed thralls that spawn in the bottom using front and back, which are the killers.

If you guys die to the add waves between damage rounds, I don't think you should be calling one gaze users bad at the game.

locked

1968 views

I haven't done Hard Mode, and am not likely to anytime soon, so I can't judge one what's necessary for the encounter or how difficult it actually is.

But in regular mode, I will say that one gazing just isn't as fun for me. Pulling off a good two-gaze run with all the Light pools dropping in order is just a great experience for me, and one gaze is much, much less fun, personally.

I guess if it's really super difficult, and the fireteam is just focused on getting through the encounter, it definitely sounds like it works. Just . . . I don't know, it seems like a disappointing method to do it.

locked

1941 views

Didn't say the adds were a problem. Just that they're more dangerous than the Cursed Thrall, who are barely even a threat, especially when you have the unoccupied gazer killing them and you get 20 seconds to clear the pit before jumping back in.

It's not even a "get gud" thing. That's just me pretending I'm korny. Just, if you're gonna do it the easy way do it the easy way, not the half-assed "guys we broke the fight, we're so smart" way.

Unless the Thrall really are giving you trouble. In which case... Get gud ;)

locked

1973 views

I mean, the hard raid is definitely harder than the normal raid because of mechanics and not that every enemy is 10 light higher.

Also, at least the grind is way easier. Totally don't have to run the raid exclusively and pray for it to drop what you need.

But at least they designed the hard mode raid first so it doesn't seem like they just tacked on something solely to disrupt established patterns!

I mean, could you imagine if they made it so some of us couldn't stand in the puddle, or if we were forced to take our attention off the ogres at the end, or if we had to leave our safe spots during war priest?

locked

2060 views

Or the tomb ship puzzle without the meaningless checkpoint? Brutal.

locked

2028 views

Or the tomb ship puzzle without the meaningless checkpoint? Brutal.

We only had one death on our fireteam.

locked

2096 views

Or the tomb ship puzzle without the meaningless checkpoint? Brutal.

What if each show had an invulnerable taken phalanx riding on top?

locked

2024 views

- No text -

locked

1979 views

- No text -

locked

2012 views

Back to the forum index

RSS Feed of thread

DBO Forums

Early reports from King's Fall hard mode *Spoilers* (Destiny)