Because it caused LFG groups to be very exclusionary?

Wonder when the Touch of Malice nerf is dropping...

99% of LFG groups are requiring it and/or the Ascendant emblem.

because no part of earning it is based on RNG. Not a single iota. Thus, ToM is a legitimate measure of player experience, skill, and dedication, whereas Gjally was only a measure of player luck.

I can never get past the totems, and I'm never touching ToO.

I can never get past the totems, and I'm never touching ToO.

It's an exotic gun you can get through a quest line. It's a scout rifle. It has a bottomless magazine, but dealing damage takes your health, and when it does you do double damage. Three quick kills restores your health. It's useful for situations where you need high burst damage from a primary.

because no part of earning it is based on RNG. Not a single iota. Thus, ToM is a legitimate measure of player experience, skill, and dedication, whereas Gjally was only a measure of player luck.

Yeah, but it's still not needed to do the raid. We run raid all the time, most of us have a ToM, nobody uses it.

To quote half the people on Archer, "I have no response to that."

I should probably acquire that gun one of these days.

Why on Earth not? Nothing else can DpS Oryx or the Sisters as well as ToM can.

LFG before HM was relatively open, most people asking players to be above 300. I have not been able to raid all week, so I wanted to try and get in some groups. Every post was must have hard mode emblem and be 310 plus, also they said you must know what you are doing or will get kicked. I joined one on my 309 Warlock, ones that were saying that you had to have the HM emblem and be 310 or more. the highest was 306, only 2 were using ToM (which is fine, shouldnt be a requirement but definitely helps) and none had completed HM yet. Talk about the definition of douchebaggery. They also had no clue to what they were doing.

Long story short, people suck. I have tried about 10 different LFG groups between normal and hard at Oryx, only had 1 go remotely smooth. I really wish there were other options to level up past 310 than the raid. I really hope trials drops gear with better defense than IB did.

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I do typically. But there are times, like yesterday, when I find myself only needing to raid, but not enough people on. Sometimes I can get in with my UK friends but they have gotten so good at the raid that they finish before I get home. I only use LFG if I am really bored, or have nothing left progressively to do.

unless they've updated it, FTB requires you to post 2 hrs in advance.

Sometimes you don't really know when you are going to be on, or don't want to commit to the folks in the DBO community and then let them down if something comes up. LFG groups are spur of the moment.

- No text -

So many of the "high quality" weapons seem to require you to jump through tons of hoops, or to go out of your way crawling posts online to find out how to get them. Though RNG was certainly annoying I hate this "you have to do research outside of the game" mentality that has now taken over. I do tons of research all day. I don't want to do more to find out how to get fun guns.

It isn't that it is laborious to get the better equipment now, it's that the means of their acquisition is so hidden.

- No text -

One of the things I like about TTK is it actually allows you to get more than decent gear with the minimum of effort.
Go to the vendors - Hung Jury, 1000 Yard Stare, Vertigo, Ruin Wake. You are set for pretty much anything.
Then there's the Gunsmith stuff. I quite enjoy most of the test gun missions and they're an easy way to get some equally good kit (my Tlaloc is the best thing ever and that was so easy to acquire).
Yes, there are tricky, hidden processes for Touch of Malice, Sleeper Simulant and No Time To Explain.
But do they rule miles above the out of the box stuff?
I'd say no.*
In fact, my Hunter feels so comfortable with Hung Jury, Stillpiercer (Gunsmith level 2 class-specific sniper) and Objection IV, I don't even bother with an exotic in any of the weapon slots.

*LFG thinks otherwise, where ToM is concerned. But the number of twerps who turn up with the gun then botch the mechanics of a raid fight is staggering. Strikes me as very much an 'all-the-gear-no-idea' situation.

Literally the best choice in guns for the final two encounters, and it's not remotely close. It seems to deal double the DPS of any other available weapon.

being a freelance artist precludes me from having a 401k.

The quests are dramatically better than RNG drops imo.

Also:

ToM is only good for the final two fights of the raid. That's it.

Black Spindle is the only "needed research and is awesome" weapon I can think of.

No Time to Explain is cool, but not gamebreaking and I'll probably never use it in a raid or PvP scenario. Gimmick right now.

Boolean Gemini is great and the quests are available to anyone with House of Wolves. Requires absolutely no research whatsoever. Also you only need to be level 30 to use it, so mail it to your alts!

None of the gunsmith exotics require research. First Curse is poorly worded in terms of what you need to do, but no research needed.

I guess you could say it required research to learn that you get a quest when you imbue your sword up to 280, but you almost certainly would have done that anyone. So the exotic swords require no research.

Sleeper Simulant actually didn't require any research either. It shows up to anyone who got the 4 dvalin drops and logged in at the right time. The passcode bit is tricky, but so obviously a puzzle that you could have figured it out on your own. Also the gun is mostly only good for killing old raid and mission bosses, but not so much for current content.

Did I miss any? I'd say only ToM, Black Spindle, and NTtE actually required research at all. Did research help with getting some of the others? Sure it did, but it wasn't required and you'd have found them eventually.

Black Spindle, Touch of Malice, and No Time To Explain are awesome, but they aren't Year 2 Gjallahorns. Heck the only time I really use Touch of Malice is in the Raid, which I'm pretty sure it was designed specifically for. The guns I love and use most often I got through vendors and a small amount I got through RNG.

I will say my favorite Year 2 exotic, Chaperone, has a pretty tough quest, but after you get past the first step the rest is easy and fun, and there are no time limited steps involved.

because no part of earning it is based on RNG. Not a single iota.

Not entirely true. There is randomness in getting calcified fragments from court of Oryx. You have to keep doing it until you get correct boss combos you haven't already gotten fragments from.

I think it sounds like a really interesting weapon in theory (don't actually have one myself yet). It's a risk vs. reward calculation you have to make, because you CAN do double damage, but you have to keep taking your own health down to do so (and it doesn't stop unless you stop firing - you can actually kill yourself just by firing the gun), which is obviously very risky in a lot of situations.

I just wanted to say I love some of those guns too. Ruin Wake is great, reminds me very much of Deviant Gravity. Tlaloc is amazing when your super's up. The one that really surprised me was Stillpiercer. The perks didn't excite me much initially, but as it turns out, the scope on that thing seems to suit me really well. I make shots with it that I wouldn't typically have made with other rifles. And it's in the reasonably-high impact range, similar to a 1000 Yard Stare or the old LDR 5001.

because no part of earning it is based on RNG. Not a single iota. Thus, ToM is a legitimate measure of player experience, skill, and dedication, whereas Gjally was only a measure of player luck.

Apart from CoO RNG that does invalidate your point, the idea is that people exclude others for not having it (one could even make the argument that since Xur sold it the second week, there was no RNG involved in obtaining it at first, but that's a stretch, and I won't make that argument). I don't have a ToM, and I didn't bother searching for calcified fragments, because that's not in line with how I find fun in the game.

And before somebody comes in trying to blame Bungie or the grinding elements of the game, my issue is not with them. I don't mind how you have to get the weapon. My issue is with people who won't give someone a chance simply because they didn't go out of their way to do a specific quest. Will I get a ToM? At some point, yes. But not to be able to participate. The LFG is outside of the game. It's my choice to use that tool, and so I have to adapt to the community surrounding it, but I'm not going to play the game in a way that I don't want to just for that opportunity. They don't want a Relic Runner that can guarantee 40+ seconds on the clock? They don't want someone who always remembers to take out the Fourth Ogre? Whatevs.

But it's messed up that there are hundreds of people out there who are also excluded by the community. That was the issue with Gjallarhorn, and the same issue with Touch of Malice.

I've got one in all three flavors. Love it.

because no part of earning it is based on RNG. Not a single iota.

Not entirely true. There is randomness in getting calcified fragments from court of Oryx. You have to keep doing it until you get correct boss combos you haven't already gotten fragments from.

Nope, you don't. The combos that give each fragment are known. If you put your coin in, and it's not one of the combos you need, leave the battle; you get your coin back.

(Well, I guess you're right in that you might have to false-start try a few times to get the pair you want - but it takes (literally) less than 2 minutes to try again.)

I think it sounds like a really interesting weapon in theory (don't actually have one myself yet). It's a risk vs. reward calculation you have to make, because you CAN do double damage, but you have to keep taking your own health down to do so (and it doesn't stop unless you stop firing - you can actually kill yourself just by firing the gun), which is obviously very risky in a lot of situations.

In the two final raid battles, its biggest downside - the health burn - is negated; being inside the aura eliminates the health reduction. You can fire non-stop with no downside at all. The argument above (that it's the best end-weapon by far) is not even subjective. :)

It isn't the weapons themselves and their role in the sandbox that gets me all curmudgeonly, it's the mechanics of learning about them. Year 1 mechanics were dirt simple and kind of enjoyable; see a bad ass dude wearing it and be awe inspired, or just notice the name and stats online. The path to getting it was already known. It's great that Tlaloc is easy to get, I just don't like how many of them are non-obvious.

It's a small gripe, believe me I know. And honestly I LOVE the way quests are implemented in TTK. Especially how easy it is to track your progress. I even love that you get guns through quests instead of through RNG. I just dislike that the knowledge of how to start those quests, or do whatever it takes to get the guns, isn't actually in the game.

The quests are dramatically better than RNG drops imo.

I totally agree. I just wish the game educated me and I didn't need to research them. It's a small complain.

Also:

ToM is only good for the final two fights of the raid. That's it.

Mmm, but it looks fun. I wants :)

Boolean Gemini is great and the quests are available to anyone with House of Wolves. Requires absolutely no research whatsoever.

What do you mean it requires no research? Does it just become available to you eventually? I'm still in the dark on that gun, as with most of them. I could go research it right now and figure out how to trigger it if I wasn't so bafflingly lazy.

None of the gunsmith exotics require research. First Curse is poorly worded in terms of what you need to do, but no research needed.

Ooooooooh. I'm guessing that the quests are presented to you after leveling up your Gunsmith? Well shit. I should have been working on leveling up my Gunsmith the whole time. If the game had told me that, instead of making it research it on this forum, I wouldn't have any complaint.

I guess you could say it required research to learn that you get a quest when you imbue your sword up to 280, but you almost certainly would have done that anyone. So the exotic swords require no research.

Shit. Haven't used my sword much (been focusing on imbuing rockets) so I had no idea how people were getting these fancy exotic swords. Thanks for saving me the research!

Sleeper Simulant actually didn't require any research either.

You're absolutely right, that one was a nice surprise.

Boolean Gemini is great and the quests are available to anyone with House of Wolves. Requires absolutely no research whatsoever.

What do you mean it requires no research? Does it just become available to you eventually? I'm still in the dark on that gun, as with most of them. I could go research it right now and figure out how to trigger it if I wasn't so bafflingly lazy.

It's given to you just for finishing quests that are given to you in the game. No, strange requirements or special endings to a mission, just follow the instructions given to you and you'll get it.

Yeah, it was the first year 2 exotic I got.

because no part of earning it is based on RNG. Not a single iota. Thus, ToM is a legitimate measure of player experience, skill, and dedication, whereas Gjally was only a measure of player luck.

Apart from CoO RNG that does invalidate your point, the idea is that people exclude others for not having it (one could even make the argument that since Xur sold it the second week, there was no RNG involved in obtaining it at first, but that's a stretch, and I won't make that argument). I don't have a ToM, and I didn't bother searching for calcified fragments, because that's not in line with how I find fun in the game.

And before somebody comes in trying to blame Bungie or the grinding elements of the game, my issue is not with them. I don't mind how you have to get the weapon. My issue is with people who won't give someone a chance simply because they didn't go out of their way to do a specific quest. Will I get a ToM? At some point, yes. But not to be able to participate. The LFG is outside of the game. It's my choice to use that tool, and so I have to adapt to the community surrounding it, but I'm not going to play the game in a way that I don't want to just for that opportunity. They don't want a Relic Runner that can guarantee 40+ seconds on the clock? They don't want someone who always remembers to take out the Fourth Ogre? Whatevs.

But it's messed up that there are hundreds of people out there who are also excluded by the community. That was the issue with Gjallarhorn, and the same issue with Touch of Malice.

While I agree that it's messed up in terms of the community of LFG choosing to exclude people who don't have it, I don't think not having ToM lies at Bungie's feet in the same way that not having Gjallerhorn did. I had killed both hardmode Atheon and Crota multiple times before I finally got my Gjallerhorn in March of this year. March. And I may never have gotten it. Likewise some people got Gjallerhorn from their very first nightfall run, knowing basically nothing about the raid mechanics. Owning it was a terrible metric for player skill and experience.

ToM, on the other hand, requires the exact same things from everyone who has it. Must have killed Oryx once. Must have sought out 45 of the 47 known calcified fragment (which means CoO RNG is moot. You can get 44 frags without any of the special combo tier 2 frags, and then - regardless of which tier 2 combo is rolled, you've got your 45th frag), must have completed some pretty challenging missions. Everyone with ToM has a baseline of experience and knowledge, and either has insanely skilled friends who carried them the whole way, or is decently skilled themselves.

Did I miss any? I'd say only ToM, Black Spindle, and NTtE actually required research at all.

I'm trying to think of where any research was needed for Touch of Malice, actually. I can't think of a single part of the quest line that wasn't spelled out for us. The only thing that I can see needing research is the location of all of the fragments, but if you're the type who enjoys exploring, they're all there to be found with relatively little effort.

I could be completely missing something, though. It's been a few weeks since I went through it and I've missed a lot of sleep since then :p

-Disciple

because no part of earning it is based on RNG. Not a single iota. Thus, ToM is a legitimate measure of player experience, skill, and dedication, whereas Gjally was only a measure of player luck.

Apart from CoO RNG that does invalidate your point, the idea is that people exclude others for not having it (one could even make the argument that since Xur sold it the second week, there was no RNG involved in obtaining it at first, but that's a stretch, and I won't make that argument). I don't have a ToM, and I didn't bother searching for calcified fragments, because that's not in line with how I find fun in the game.

And before somebody comes in trying to blame Bungie or the grinding elements of the game, my issue is not with them. I don't mind how you have to get the weapon. My issue is with people who won't give someone a chance simply because they didn't go out of their way to do a specific quest. Will I get a ToM? At some point, yes. But not to be able to participate. The LFG is outside of the game. It's my choice to use that tool, and so I have to adapt to the community surrounding it, but I'm not going to play the game in a way that I don't want to just for that opportunity. They don't want a Relic Runner that can guarantee 40+ seconds on the clock? They don't want someone who always remembers to take out the Fourth Ogre? Whatevs.

But it's messed up that there are hundreds of people out there who are also excluded by the community. That was the issue with Gjallarhorn, and the same issue with Touch of Malice.

So I agree with a lot of what you have to say. But I do also see where people who make these LFG requirements are coming from.

9 times out of 10, playing with randoms sucks. Even if 5 out of the 6 players in your LFG group end up being cool, decent people who know what they are doing, it only takes 1 jerk to ruin everything. In this scenario, my definition of "jerk" includes people who are not upfront about their skill/gear/experience before joining an event. There's nothing wrong with being inexperienced/low level/not great at the game... I met many DBOers by coming here as such a player and asking for help. But I was up-front about where I was coming from.

If someone creates an LFG post and they only want experienced raiders in their group, requiring ToM is a way to at least know a few important things about the players who join them. It means they have definitely done the raid before, have completed a good chunk of TTK content on this character, and have at least 1 high-level primary that will do well during the raid.

I know you. So if we raid together, I know that you will do well with whatever weapons you choose to use. And even if you don't do well, it doesn't matter because I like you :) But if I've only got 1.5-2 hours to play and I want to do a quick raid with randoms, a quick gear check is one of the only tools we have to know if we're joining up with the right people.

My take away from this is that you're being unnecessarily sarcastic rather than conceding that your initial position was incorrect.

Did I miss any? I'd say only ToM, Black Spindle, and NTtE actually required research at all.

I'm trying to think of where any research was needed for Touch of Malice, actually. I can't think of a single part of the quest line that wasn't spelled out for us. The only thing that I can see needing research is the location of all of the fragments, but if you're the type who enjoys exploring, they're all there to be found with relatively little effort.

I could be completely missing something, though. It's been a few weeks since I went through it and I've missed a lot of sleep since then :p

-Disciple

Finding the 45 fragments is the part I considered as "needing research" I found... 30? On my own but looking up the rest was a massive time saver.

It isn't the weapons themselves and their role in the sandbox that gets me all curmudgeonly, it's the mechanics of learning about them. Year 1 mechanics were dirt simple and kind of enjoyable; see a bad ass dude wearing it and be awe inspired, or just notice the name and stats online. The path to getting it was already known. It's great that Tlaloc is easy to get, I just don't like how many of them are non-obvious.

It's a small gripe, believe me I know. And honestly I LOVE the way quests are implemented in TTK. Especially how easy it is to track your progress. I even love that you get guns through quests instead of through RNG. I just dislike that the knowledge of how to start those quests, or do whatever it takes to get the guns, isn't actually in the game.

Path to year 1 exotics: Hope.

Path to year 2 exotics: Google.

One of these really is a lot easier and more interesting, and it isn't the one where you make a shrine to the RNG.

--

Here's the thing though: You mentioned before that you don't have Boolean Gemini, and that quest is available (with a beacon and everything) the moment you loaded TTK on day 1. So you seem to not be pursuing avenues of exploration that are not just available to you but are slapping you in the face with "do this quest". So I'm not really sure what you're complaining about.

Would you prefer that step 1 of a quest which eventually leads to an exotic weapon say "This quest will eventually reward you with an exotic weapon" at the bottom of the quest box?

Would you prefer clues to how to acquire each weapon be in the mouse-over description of the engram in the blueprint iphones? Something like "earned by gaining reputation with the Gunsmith" or "Found via an alternate exit to a specific daily heroic mission?" If they were there, would you be complaining that you need to research on the internet to find the answer to those clues? Or to even know to mouse over the icons in the blueprint iphones?

The degree of hand-holding that you seem to be asking for is exactly what google is for. "How do I get X gun in Destiny?" will take you right to a step by step walkthrough of it, complete with videos and commentaries. Is that too much research? None of it is required to actually get the gun, it just takes longer for you to discover the means, but all of the methods are things you'd stumble into eventually.

Nope, you don't. The combos that give each fragment are known. If you put your coin in, and it's not one of the combos you need, leave the battle; you get your coin back.

awesome, i did not know this! I also haven't been trying to get fragments. I haven't bothered to start actively tracking them down yet. Glad i saw this post though!

Here's the thing though: You mentioned before that you don't have Boolean Gemini, and that quest is available (with a beacon and everything) the moment you loaded TTK on day 1. So you seem to not be pursuing avenues of exploration that are not just available to you but are slapping you in the face with "do this quest". So I'm not really sure what you're complaining about.

What now? Are you sure? Feel free to look through my Quests on BNet (I assume you can view this?) I assure you I don't have anything aside from the Raid, Court, Jolly Holiday, Crucible, and class quests. Neither do I have that gun.

Maybe you are talking from the perspective of someone who plays a ton and just runs across this stuff. Remember most of us here play far far more than the average Destiny player and, personally, I have still haven't stumbled onto the quest yet.

Would you prefer clues to how to acquire each weapon be in the mouse-over description of the engram in the blueprint iphones? Something like "earned by gaining reputation with the Gunsmith" or "Found via an alternate exit to a specific daily heroic mission?" If they were there, would you be complaining that you need to research on the internet to find the answer to those clues? Or to even know to mouse over the icons in the blueprint iphones?

Those are all great answers. And as they alleviate my issue, I wouldn't have anything to complain about. I'm also pretty sure you knew that, and asked anyways so that you could take a jab at me for complaining.

Listen man, this isn't a big deal. I just thought I would mentioned it. I'm not a fan of the added mystery when it comes to acquiring stuff. Quest are almost certainly fast than RNG and, like I said, I love them. But I think Bungie needs to work on discoverability.

See above. I don't have this quest. There must be something small that we are missing.

You can take that away if you want, but I made a couple of points that I believe in. Remember that my "initial position" was "X makes me feel lost". If you think I am incorrect about how I feel then I think you are having a different conversation than I am having.

Also only some of that was sarcastic; I DO want to use Touch of Malice just because I think it is fun to try different guns. Sometimes I forget that people want other guns specifically for utilitarian reasons. Often I just want one to play around with or even just to collect.

I think it sounds like a really interesting weapon in theory (don't actually have one myself yet). It's a risk vs. reward calculation you have to make, because you CAN do double damage, but you have to keep taking your own health down to do so (and it doesn't stop unless you stop firing - you can actually kill yourself just by firing the gun), which is obviously very risky in a lot of situations.

In the two final raid battles, its biggest downside - the health burn - is negated; being inside the aura eliminates the health reduction. You can fire non-stop with no downside at all. The argument above (that it's the best end-weapon by far) is not even subjective. :)

If you have a defender Titan, you can use blessing of light, and touch of Malice will take away the overshield, which you can then replenish by dipping in and out of the bubble. The downside can be negated in more situations than you think.

Here's the thing though: You mentioned before that you don't have Boolean Gemini, and that quest is available (with a beacon and everything) the moment you loaded TTK on day 1. So you seem to not be pursuing avenues of exploration that are not just available to you but are slapping you in the face with "do this quest". So I'm not really sure what you're complaining about.

What now? Are you sure? Feel free to look through my Quests on BNet (I assume you can view this?) I assure you I don't have anything aside from the Raid, Court, Jolly Holiday, Crucible, and class quests. Neither do I have that gun.

Hmm, I can't view your quests, but I believe you. What rank are you with Queen's Wrath? I don't know for sure that's required but it may be.

Hmm, I can't view your quests, but I believe you. What rank are you with Queen's Wrath? I don't know for sure that's required but it may be.

2, so that could certainly be it. Thanks for letting me know, I might put some time into leveling that up, it looks like an interesting gun.

Did I miss any? I'd say only ToM, Black Spindle, and NTtE actually required research at all.

I'm trying to think of where any research was needed for Touch of Malice, actually. I can't think of a single part of the quest line that wasn't spelled out for us. The only thing that I can see needing research is the location of all of the fragments, but if you're the type who enjoys exploring, they're all there to be found with relatively little effort.

I could be completely missing something, though. It's been a few weeks since I went through it and I've missed a lot of sleep since then :p

-Disciple

So, if you didn't know you needed to get all the fragments, the game doesn't tell you that. You have a questline that gives you no new step and just "ends" with no reward. You'd never continue it if you didn't decide to collect all the fragments or hadn't heard about it.

Hmm, I can't view your quests, but I believe you. What rank are you with Queen's Wrath? I don't know for sure that's required but it may be.

2, so that could certainly be it. Thanks for letting me know, I might put some time into leveling that up, it looks like an interesting gun.

My Titan is rank 1, but I can still pick up the quest with her.

Hmm, I can't view your quests, but I believe you. What rank are you with Queen's Wrath? I don't know for sure that's required but it may be.

2, so that could certainly be it. Thanks for letting me know, I might put some time into leveling that up, it looks like an interesting gun.

My Titan is rank 1, but I can still pick up the quest with her.

Okay so that's not it. Well if nothing else, this is doing a great job of proving my point haha.

What quest is it that you pick up? (At this point I am perfectly willing to actually look this stuff up, it is just that my work internet filter is stupidly restrictive and almost all gaming site are blocked...)

Did I miss any? I'd say only ToM, Black Spindle, and NTtE actually required research at all.

I'm trying to think of where any research was needed for Touch of Malice, actually. I can't think of a single part of the quest line that wasn't spelled out for us. The only thing that I can see needing research is the location of all of the fragments, but if you're the type who enjoys exploring, they're all there to be found with relatively little effort.

I could be completely missing something, though. It's been a few weeks since I went through it and I've missed a lot of sleep since then :p

-Disciple

So, if you didn't know you needed to get all the fragments, the game doesn't tell you that. You have a questline that gives you no new step and just "ends" with no reward. You'd never continue it if you didn't decide to collect all the fragments or hadn't heard about it.

I have been using all my Hadium flakes on other things and not saving them. So if I build up enough of them a new Quest will just appear at Eris? That's really simple.

Hmm, I can't view your quests, but I believe you. What rank are you with Queen's Wrath? I don't know for sure that's required but it may be.

2, so that could certainly be it. Thanks for letting me know, I might put some time into leveling that up, it looks like an interesting gun.

My Titan is rank 1, but I can still pick up the quest with her.

You have to be rank 3 to receive the gun, but the quest shows up even if you are not rank 3. According to reports on the Interwebs even if you completed Petra and Varik's quests already and weren't rank 3 when you hit rank 3 you'll get the gun.

(The quests for Monochron's information were the Taken War quests from Petra, Lost and Found and the Wolves of Mars questlines).

My Titan is rank 1, but I can still pick up the quest with her.

You have to be rank 3 to receive the gun, but the quest shows up even if you are not rank 3. According to reports on the Interwebs even if you completed Petra and Varik's quests already and weren't rank 3 when you hit rank 3 you'll get the gun.

(The quests for Monochron's information were the Taken War quests from Petra, Lost and Found and the Wolves of Mars questlines).

Oh okay, yeah I definitely did those quests (killed some wolves on Mars, fought that tank), they were a ton of fun. Thanks for clearing up the fog man, us lowly rank 2's working in the salt mines appreciate it :D

Did I miss any? I'd say only ToM, Black Spindle, and NTtE actually required research at all.

I'm trying to think of where any research was needed for Touch of Malice, actually. I can't think of a single part of the quest line that wasn't spelled out for us. The only thing that I can see needing research is the location of all of the fragments, but if you're the type who enjoys exploring, they're all there to be found with relatively little effort.

I could be completely missing something, though. It's been a few weeks since I went through it and I've missed a lot of sleep since then :p

-Disciple

So, if you didn't know you needed to get all the fragments, the game doesn't tell you that. You have a questline that gives you no new step and just "ends" with no reward. You'd never continue it if you didn't decide to collect all the fragments or hadn't heard about it.

I have been using all my Hadium flakes on other things and not saving them. So if I build up enough of them a new Quest will just appear at Eris? That's really simple.

It's not the Hadium Flakes that trigger the quest, it's the Calcified Fragments. You'll still want to hang onto those flakes, though.

-Disciple

Hmm, I can't view your quests, but I believe you. What rank are you with Queen's Wrath? I don't know for sure that's required but it may be.

2, so that could certainly be it. Thanks for letting me know, I might put some time into leveling that up, it looks like an interesting gun.

My Titan is rank 1, but I can still pick up the quest with her.

Okay so that's not it. Well if nothing else, this is doing a great job of proving my point haha.

What quest is it that you pick up? (At this point I am perfectly willing to actually look this stuff up, it is just that my work internet filter is stupidly restrictive and almost all gaming site are blocked...)

I'm not sure about that :)

What people are pointing out here is that the Gemini, like most new TTK exotic weapons, is handed to you upon completing a quest line. Not every one of these quests is available to you right at the very start of TTK, but some are, with others becoming available as you complete certain missions or content. So for most of these guns, there is no research that you need to do. Just complete quests as they are made available to you and you'll get almost all of the new toys.

Hmm, I can't view your quests, but I believe you. What rank are you with Queen's Wrath? I don't know for sure that's required but it may be.

2, so that could certainly be it. Thanks for letting me know, I might put some time into leveling that up, it looks like an interesting gun.

My Titan is rank 1, but I can still pick up the quest with her.

You have to be rank 3 to receive the gun, but the quest shows up even if you are not rank 3. According to reports on the Interwebs even if you completed Petra and Varik's quests already and weren't rank 3 when you hit rank 3 you'll get the gun.

(The quests for Monochron's information were the Taken War quests from Petra, Lost and Found and the Wolves of Mars questlines).

I don't think any of my characters are up to rank 3 with Petra, and I got the Gemini as soon as I finished the quest.

http://destinystatus.com/psn/CruelLEGACEY#progressions-1

Rank 5, Rank 5, Rank 4.

Remember this is QUEEN'S WRATH, NOT House of Judgement.

- No text -

Oh haha, duh. Alright I'll probably look into fragments, thanks.

Not every one of these quests is available to you right at the very start of TTK, but some are, with others becoming available as you complete certain missions or content. So for most of these guns, there is no research that you need to do. Just complete quests as they are made available to you and you'll get almost all of the new toys.

Yeah I see your point. This one has the added hidden requirement of getting rep up with a particular faction, one that I never really had a reason to get up. Without going online here (or doing more than a cursory search of the steps online) I never would have realized why I didn't get the gun when I completed the quests that were available.

Sorry, I honestly wasn't sure if you were trolling me or not. I'm still not sure.

It really sounds like you want all the shinies but don't want to actually play the game, which is how most of the shinies are unlocked. You say you're out of quests, but there is so much more to do in the game that you're ignoring. The Gunsmith, for example, has 5 guns each week which you can field test for rep. Why aren't you doing that? Is it literally because there's not a quest telling you that you have to?

I'll back up. Here's my real problem with what you're saying: You want the guns *now* but without doing research about how to get them. You are ignoring the fact that, in most of these situations, you would eventually have gotten the guns by accident, just through casual play or in the pursuit of other objectives. As you, yourself, said - you're being lazy.

Look at Boolean Gemini. You need rank 3 with the Queen to get it. Even if you don't know that and the game never tells you that, the game makes it really clear that you also need to be rank 3 to get that sweet spaceship that Petra Venj is selling. There's an incentive to reach rank 3. There are bounties for Petra that you can do to get that rank. Clear path with carrot at the end. And oh wow you get an exotic too?! Bonus.

No research is needed. At all. I don't feel that you have any right to complain that you deserve the rewards without playing the game first, nor is it fair to complain that you needed to do research to get the gun when, in fact, all you needed to do was play the game for the rewards it did show you.

Your stance seems to be "I haven't played the game much at all but I should have all the guns" and that feels really hypocritical to me.

Sorry, I honestly wasn't sure if you were trolling me or not. I'm still not sure.

It really sounds like you want all the shinies but don't want to actually play the game, which is how most of the shinies are unlocked. You say you're out of quests, but there is so much more to do in the game that you're ignoring. The Gunsmith, for example, has 5 guns each week which you can field test for rep. Why aren't you doing that? Is it literally because there's not a quest telling you that you have to?

I'll back up. Here's my real problem with what you're saying: You want the guns *now* but without doing research about how to get them. You are ignoring the fact that, in most of these situations, you would eventually have gotten the guns by accident, just through casual play or in the pursuit of other objectives. As you, yourself, said - you're being lazy.

Look at Boolean Gemini. You need rank 3 with the Queen to get it. Even if you don't know that and the game never tells you that, the game makes it really clear that you also need to be rank 3 to get that sweet spaceship that Petra Venj is selling. There's an incentive to reach rank 3. There are bounties for Petra that you can do to get that rank. Clear path with carrot at the end. And oh wow you get an exotic too?! Bonus.

No research is needed. At all. I don't feel that you have any right to complain that you deserve the rewards without playing the game first, nor is it fair to complain that you needed to do research to get the gun when, in fact, all you needed to do was play the game for the rewards it did show you.

Your stance seems to be "I haven't played the game much at all but I should have all the guns" and that feels really hypocritical to me.

Wow, you read a lot into his posts that I'm not seeing.

Instead of seeing it as that laziness-inspired last line of your post, how about "wow, there are so many different things to do that are undocumented - wouldn't it be nice if something told me which quests end at Exotics and which ones end at 220 Ghosts without my having to spend a week on the internet, researching?"

I had no clue at all that ranking up with the Gunsmith was worth doing until someone told me it was. I'd been trained, over the course of a year, by Bungie themselves, that ranking up a vendor got me stuff I didn't really want (vendor-rolled weapons in year 1 were generally crap compared to what I was getting in the field; I can't remember a SINGLE GUN I used for any length of time that I got from a vendor). Now, TTK comes along, and completely changes that paradigm... but doesn't really tell me about it. (Doing quests for the Vanguard still gets me low-light-leveled stuff - I shard 95% of it.) How hard would it be for them to add, say, a line to one of the bot janitors to the effect of "hey, have you visited the gunsmith recently? He's got some good stuff these days!"

Wow, you read a lot into his posts that I'm not seeing.

Instead of seeing it as that laziness-inspired last line of your post, how about "wow, there are so many different things to do that are undocumented - wouldn't it be nice if something told me which quests end at Exotics and which ones end at 220 Ghosts without my having to spend a week on the internet, researching?"

I mean, you could spend that week playing the game, doing those quests, and finding out for yourself. It's like he wants to know the answers before he even asks the questions.

I had no clue at all that ranking up with the Gunsmith was worth doing until someone told me it was. I'd been trained, over the course of a year, by Bungie themselves, that ranking up a vendor got me stuff I didn't really want (vendor-rolled weapons in year 1 were generally crap compared to what I was getting in the field; I can't remember a SINGLE GUN I used for any length of time that I got from a vendor). Now, TTK comes along, and completely changes that paradigm... but doesn't really tell me about it. (Doing quests for the Vanguard still gets me low-light-leveled stuff - I shard 95% of it.) How hard would it be for them to add, say, a line to one of the bot janitors to the effect of "hey, have you visited the gunsmith recently? He's got some good stuff these days!"

How exactly do you go about not ranking up your factions? You can't. Everything you do in this game increases your rep for one faction or another. For me the faction packages were always bonuses: free legendary with a chance for a godly roll! Maybe a shader! Possible spaceship! (full disclosure: I haven't gotten a spaceship yet). I actually got an emblem from the Gunsmith yesterday (rank 6 package, I got a green emblem. I think it's one eva lavonte sells normally though). At the very least you would know that you need to be rank 3 with the factions to buy their gear, or to buy the spaceship from the Queen's guard, and that gunsmith rank 1 lets you buy an armsday gun, so why do the bare minimum? Why not see what rank 2 gets you? It's fun to rep up anyway.

And that line of text you're asking for pretty much is in the game. If you go to your quests tab and mouse over a reputation, it says straight up to increase reputation to receive rewards.

my point is that there are already incentives in the game to do pretty much all of the stuff you need to do to get the quests for the majority of the guns he wants, with only those 3 "mystery" guns which actually are obscure enough that most people would have to look up how to get them (I know I did), only one of which is a really good gun. So they don't expressly say "this is how you get exotic X." So what? If you never did research, you'd never know exotic X existed in the first place, or at least wouldn't know that it was a quest reward and not a random drop from Nightfalls. Play the game and have fun. The loot will come.

Wow, you read a lot into his posts that I'm not seeing.

Instead of seeing it as that laziness-inspired last line of your post, how about "wow, there are so many different things to do that are undocumented - wouldn't it be nice if something told me which quests end at Exotics and which ones end at 220 Ghosts without my having to spend a week on the internet, researching?"

I mean, you could spend that week playing the game, doing those quests, and finding out for yourself. It's like he wants to know the answers before he even asks the questions.

I had no clue at all that ranking up with the Gunsmith was worth doing until someone told me it was. I'd been trained, over the course of a year, by Bungie themselves, that ranking up a vendor got me stuff I didn't really want (vendor-rolled weapons in year 1 were generally crap compared to what I was getting in the field; I can't remember a SINGLE GUN I used for any length of time that I got from a vendor). Now, TTK comes along, and completely changes that paradigm... but doesn't really tell me about it. (Doing quests for the Vanguard still gets me low-light-leveled stuff - I shard 95% of it.) How hard would it be for them to add, say, a line to one of the bot janitors to the effect of "hey, have you visited the gunsmith recently? He's got some good stuff these days!"

How exactly do you go about not ranking up your factions? You can't.

You ONLY rank up the factions you're allied with. In Year 1, for me, that was ONLY Vanguard - because I didn't see anything useful come out of DO, or NM, or FWC. (If you didn't wear their marks, you didn't get rep for them.) Every level, I got motes and some crappy armor - not enough motes to care about, armor that became parts as fast as I could hold the button.

I NEVER got a godly roll on a gun - I don't think I even realized you could get non-standard rolls on rank-up packages. Until TTK dropped, and I got to test out 'Old Guard', I NEVER (not once) saw a shader that made me say more than 'meh'. Ships? They're almost all the same. I use Green ships on my characters now, because they're the cleanest.

I'm no longer speaking for Mono - this is MY experience. I play way more than he does - I have over a thousand hours of playtime in on this game. And when TTK dropped, and I saw you could get Gunsmith rep by trying out guns there, I did that. And it sucked. So I didn't do it again. For WEEKS.

I only went back because someone said "hey, you're never going to be able to get these guns without ranking up with the Gunsmith."

It never occurred to me that the Gunsmith, unlike every other NPC vendor in the game, had actual EXOTICS I could get, by doing these boring tests. Nothing I'd done to that point suggested that might be a mechanic. Not sure why you think that's obvious - it wasn't, at all, to me.

You ONLY rank up the factions you're allied with. In Year 1, for me, that was ONLY Vanguard - because I didn't see anything useful come out of DO, or NM, or FWC. (If you didn't wear their marks, you didn't get rep for them.) Every level, I got motes and some crappy armor - not enough motes to care about, armor that became parts as fast as I could hold the button.

You... really?! You didn't look at the vendor armors or weapons from the various factions and see even 1 that you wanted enough to rank up to rank 3 with that faction? Really? Some of the vendor weapons were really, really good (Vanquisher VIII comes to mind). But even if you really did only vanguard and crucible rep, you're still getting the reward packages. There's still tangible evidence that ranking up your rep with a faction gets you something.

Did you ignore Eris rep? Or Queen's guard rep? Variks rep? All of these things lay out that at least up to rank 3 there are rewards to buy. Every faction but the gunsmith shows that, so inferring that maybe you get something at rank 3 of the gunsmith is a pretty easy step to take.

I NEVER got a godly roll on a gun - I don't think I even realized you could get non-standard rolls on rank-up packages.

You should have realized on your first gun that the roll wasn't standardized, and certainly by gun five. I'm genuinely surprised you never noticed.

Until TTK dropped, and I got to test out 'Old Guard', I NEVER (not once) saw a shader that made me say more than 'meh'. Ships? They're almost all the same. I use Green ships on my characters now, because they're the cleanest.

But you saw shaders. You saw ships. You knew there were rewards from those factions beyond simply what was shown on their vendor list.

I'm no longer speaking for Mono - this is MY experience. I play way more than he does - I have over a thousand hours of playtime in on this game. And when TTK dropped, and I saw you could get Gunsmith rep by trying out guns there, I did that. And it sucked. So I didn't do it again. For WEEKS.

Again, I'm just really surprised that you didn't even hit rank 2 to get the very first weapon quest. One set of 5 guns is 1250 rep, plus 1000 rep from the four Dvalin drops... You'd only need 3 more test guns to hit rank 2.

I only went back because someone said "hey, you're never going to be able to get these guns without ranking up with the Gunsmith."

It never occurred to me that the Gunsmith, unlike every other NPC vendor in the game, had actual EXOTICS I could get, by doing these boring tests. Nothing I'd done to that point suggested that might be a mechanic. Not sure why you think that's obvious - it wasn't, at all, to me.

Each faction rep has a quest for an exotic piece of faction armor which becomes available at rank 25, so it's not just the Gunsmith.

I'm just really surprised that after all that time in-game you seem to have missed one of the best paths to item upgrades available to you, and to have done so willfully. I really feel like the signposts are in the game to point you towards repping up as a means of garnering rewards.

Each faction rep has a quest for an exotic piece of faction armor which becomes available at rank 25, so it's not just the Gunsmith.

Which is another thing that kinda sucks. Like, I get that people that have played from the beginning don't have to worry about hitting rank 25 with a faction. My highest rank is Dead Orbit at rank 9, Vanguard is at Rank 8. It's going to take me ages to get to 25 with anything. So whatever, I guess it'll be a nice surprise when I get there, if I even get it while it's still relevant.

You ONLY rank up the factions you're allied with. In Year 1, for me, that was ONLY Vanguard - because I didn't see anything useful come out of DO, or NM, or FWC. (If you didn't wear their marks, you didn't get rep for them.) Every level, I got motes and some crappy armor - not enough motes to care about, armor that became parts as fast as I could hold the button.

You... really?! You didn't look at the vendor armors or weapons from the various factions and see even 1 that you wanted enough to rank up to rank 3 with that faction? Really? Some of the vendor weapons were really, really good (Vanquisher VIII comes to mind). But even if you really did only vanguard and crucible rep, you're still getting the reward packages. There's still tangible evidence that ranking up your rep with a faction gets you something.

Did you ignore Eris rep? Or Queen's guard rep? Variks rep? All of these things lay out that at least up to rank 3 there are rewards to buy. Every faction but the gunsmith shows that, so inferring that maybe you get something at rank 3 of the gunsmith is a pretty easy step to take.

It's as though you're reading half of my posts, and ignoring the other half.

I NOTICED that you get stuff. I DECIDED, after a lot of experience (I'm over rank 40 in Vanguard now) that what they give you is crap - I sharded almost ALL of it.

The Gunsmith changed the paradigm. Earning rep with the Gunsmith allows you to earn Exotics - that's absolutely new, and no other vendor has matched that. (I suppose you could say that the PoE Elder Ciphers are technically 'Exotics you can earn through ranking up with Variks'... but there's so much more involved in getting those that Variks is almost an afterthought.)

There is no indication, anywhere, that the paradigm shifted. Why would I continue to work for things that bore me, if nobody says "well, the paradigm shifted, and now you can earn things that don't bore you - but only with this one new guy you didn't rank up with before"?

I NEVER got a godly roll on a gun - I don't think I even realized you could get non-standard rolls on rank-up packages.

You should have realized on your first gun that the roll wasn't standardized, and certainly by gun five. I'm genuinely surprised you never noticed.

::shrug::

Until TTK dropped, and I got to test out 'Old Guard', I NEVER (not once) saw a shader that made me say more than 'meh'. Ships? They're almost all the same. I use Green ships on my characters now, because they're the cleanest.

But you saw shaders. You saw ships. You knew there were rewards from those factions beyond simply what was shown on their vendor list.

But... once again, and more clearly... THOSE THINGS DON'T REALLY MATTER TO ME. (They clearly matter to you, and to others. But I couldn't care less what ship I'm flying in, and my idea of the perfect color scheme is no color at all.)

I'm no longer speaking for Mono - this is MY experience. I play way more than he does - I have over a thousand hours of playtime in on this game. And when TTK dropped, and I saw you could get Gunsmith rep by trying out guns there, I did that. And it sucked. So I didn't do it again. For WEEKS.

Again, I'm just really surprised that you didn't even hit rank 2 to get the very first weapon quest. One set of 5 guns is 1250 rep, plus 1000 rep from the four Dvalin drops... You'd only need 3 more test guns to hit rank 2.

Yep. They probably planned it that way. "Hey, if we make the second rank gettable just from doing the first week's stuff, things won't last long enough." I did a week's worth of stuff, saw no benefit, went out and did stuff that was fun, instead.

I only went back because someone said "hey, you're never going to be able to get these guns without ranking up with the Gunsmith."

It never occurred to me that the Gunsmith, unlike every other NPC vendor in the game, had actual EXOTICS I could get, by doing these boring tests. Nothing I'd done to that point suggested that might be a mechanic. Not sure why you think that's obvious - it wasn't, at all, to me.

Each faction rep has a quest for an exotic piece of faction armor which becomes available at rank 25, so it's not just the Gunsmith.

See? There's something I had no idea about UNTIL JUST NOW. Nobody ever told me that - including the faction rep guys I talk to regularly these days (I rank up now because DO's weapons are suddently fun for me, something that wasn't true in year 1.)

I'm 20 levels away from that, though, so who knows if I'll ever see it?

I'm just really surprised that after all that time in-game you seem to have missed one of the best paths to item upgrades available to you, and to have done so willfully. I really feel like the signposts are in the game to point you towards repping up as a means of garnering rewards.

And that just shows how easy it is to misunderstand how others see the game you're playing.

The Gunsmith changed the paradigm. Earning rep with the Gunsmith allows you to earn Exotics - that's absolutely new, and no other vendor has matched that. (I suppose you could say that the PoE Elder Ciphers are technically 'Exotics you can earn through ranking up with Variks'... but there's so much more involved in getting those that Variks is almost an afterthought.)

There is no indication, anywhere, that the paradigm shifted.

Every faction offers an exotic, which can be obtained by reaching a high rank and completing the quest given to you. Granted it is a useless class item, but it is an exotic.

So, if you didn't know you needed to get all the fragments, the game doesn't tell you that. You have a questline that gives you no new step and just "ends" with no reward. You'd never continue it if you didn't decide to collect all the fragments or hadn't heard about it.

When you look at the map of the Dreadnought, it says you have X/50 fragments collected, just like the golden chests. Collecting is part of the discovery of the quest.

The Gunsmith changed the paradigm. Earning rep with the Gunsmith allows you to earn Exotics - that's absolutely new, and no other vendor has matched that. (I suppose you could say that the PoE Elder Ciphers are technically 'Exotics you can earn through ranking up with Variks'... but there's so much more involved in getting those that Variks is almost an afterthought.)

There is no indication, anywhere, that the paradigm shifted.

Every faction offers an exotic, which can be obtained by reaching a high rank and completing the quest given to you. Granted it is a useless class item, but it is an exotic.

Yeah, that was pointed out to me later in the thread. Since I'm no higher than 8 in ANY faction, that's not something I'm gonna find out for myself for quite some time.