Something has been brewing in my brain for a couple of weeks now. We talked a bunch about Halo 5 when it launched, as well as an article from Polygon called "I haven't touched Halo 5 and Destiny is to blame". I found myself relating to many of the thoughts expressed in the article; I played and loved Halo 5, but very quickly tired of it and went straight back to Destiny. There are some obvious things about Destiny that I prefer; the controls are slightly tighter, the movement and weapon handling feels a little better, I think it looks a bit nicer... but there's more to it than just that. As much as I love it, Halo 5 feels somehow "superficial" to me compared to Destiny.

A few days after all of our Halo 5 talk, I was listening to an episode of the Planet Destiny podcast with Luke Smith. Something Luke said jumped out at me. He was talking about the idea of "failure" in Destiny, and why it is so important. I don't have any direct quotes in front of me, but he mentioned a few examples (including not getting the raid drops you were hoping for or failing to complete the Black Spindle mission after hours of trying). The point he seemed to be making is that failure in Destiny and the mix of emotions that come with it is every bit as important as success. Speaking specifically about the Black Spindle, Luke said something along the lines of "there are people who will never get it. They will always look back at their time with Destiny and think 'man, I wish I'd been able to finish that mission and get that gun'. And that's as much a part of the game as anything else." This struck a chord with me, and I've spent the past few days trying to unravel exactly what I think about it.

Last night, it hit me. Cody, Thee Chaos and I had a rough time in Trials of Osiris. After struggling for a little over an hour, we finally hit our groove and went 8-0 with our Mercy buff still intact, only to lose our final 2 matches in a pair of heartbreaking 5-4 defeats. I'm sure anyone who has played Trials has been there; that feeling of deflation that comes from losing after getting so close to your goal. Yet when I woke up this morning, my first Destiny-related thought was "I can't wait to get back into Trials and kick some ass".

Cut back to Halo 5. After completing the campaign on Heroic, I went back and started a playthrough on Legendary. I got as far as the first battle against the Warden. After banging my head against that encounter for an hour or so, I put the game down and haven't gone back. That was 10 days ago, and I've had absolutely no interest or desire to pick it back up and try again.

Why? Why does failure in Destiny spur me to come back and try again, while failure in Halo 5 leaves me feeling completely disinterested?

At first, I thought it might have something to do with loot. Going to the Lighthouse in Destiny gives me actual in-game rewards. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized I don't actually care about any of the new Trials gear. There's nothing I want. Yet I really want to go back to the lighthouse.

Then it hit me. The difference is Chaos and Cody. We experienced a moment of defeat together. We've spent months playing this game with each other, so when we go into Trials as a team we carry all of that weight with us. Of course, you can play Halo 5 with friends, too. You can play multiplayer with the same people for months at a time, experiencing exciting victories and painful defeat. But in a way, a game like Halo will always be static. Each match takes place in its own little bubble, with little affect on the one before or the one after. This is where Destiny's loot, or more specifically Destiny's persistent world, does matter. We each have a personal history within the world of Destiny. Different things we have worked towards over time, different goals we have succeeded or failed to achieve. Last night was not the first time we have failed to get to the Lighthouse together, but it was not the same as our other defeats. Because in many ways, Destiny is not the same game for me this week as it was last week or last month or last year. So a moment of heartbreak in Destiny becomes yet another part of my history with the game, while a similar situation in Halo 5 makes me think "this isn't really fun I think I'll stop playing".

Does this make any sense? What do you all think about this?

The highs are better too. Remember Vault of Glass flawless? I think everybody cheered but you since you would wake everybody up. Man, even just beating the Warpriest and Golgoroth our first time blind was super exciting.

There is a difference between failure and frustration. Last night? Failure. Getting not a single drop from trials above 260? Frustration! One is good, the other bad.

Shared social experiences are always going to be better than doing it alone. That is why even though Halo had no internet play whatsoever, HBO made it FEEL like a communal experience. Halo 5 might not be doing it for you in that way anymore, because I think HBO is a shadow of itself between 2003 and 2005. Nobody's fault really, just an observation.

I do think you both make excellent points, and there may be something to the failures making the game better. Failing so many times during a blind Raid, then finally putting the pieces together and executing to get that particular encounter done is unparalleled by any gaming experience I've had. It's just incredible. That certainly wouldn't feel as good without banging your head against the wall on it for however long before actually bursting through.

We've had the discussion here before that failure needs to happen more often in Destiny. Remember when HoW came out, and we got our asses kicked by the Wolf packs? Or when we could finally beat the Wolf packs, but then you got that lucky encounter in Skywatch with a Wolf pack, Warsat, and Urzok, and it became difficult to complete one event, much less two (or three!). That's still one of the best experiences Destiny ever had, and failure definitely played into that. It was great to not be able to just breeze through it.

I do believe Bungie has made something truly special with Destiny; it feels very communal in a way that nothing I've played before ever has. Cody's right in that HBO used to give Halo that same feeling, and DBO does contribute to that feeling with Destiny, so it's not all down to the game. DBO is a very small percentage of Destiny players, though, and the game has clearly captured a large audience in some way, and I do think it's feeling of community is a large part of that. I mean, the first week after TTK, I encountered a random player that was simply running in front of other random players to highlight the way to the Blind Thrall chest. That's a great community.

The upside with the compartmentalized bubble of Halo 5, though, is that you rely pretty much entirely on your own skill. Destiny requires me to play a bunch of specific content I may not enjoy to get the gear I need to enjoy myself. :/

I think you hit the nail on the head. The relationships and requirement of a good working team make this game great. There is no other game that rewards people who work together. Call of Duty, Halo, and Battlefield are the other FPS shooters that are current, and its just game after game. You have have some pretty amazing moments in those, but you can in destiny as well. You can't play through a tournament every weekend on those games, for rewards to show off. I love the raids in Destiny, but I am almost tired of Oryx. I just do it for the gear, and the friends. Not because i want to. I love trials because its a challenge you can't roll through the numbers on. And if you put forth the time and effort, you will be rewarded in a way that other plays may never be. I am not a gloater, but I like the fact that it is a requirement to go to the lighthouse to get that gear. If everyone could just get everything, this game would be so boring by now.

Edit:

Kind of went of on a rant there. To your initial point, failure is needed. Figuring out the Raid, fighting teeth and nail to the lighthouse, things like this are what make things great. If I went into the lighthouse knowing I could go with my eyes closed, what fun would I have? If I knew I would get every drop my first time through the raid, why would I play again?

Then it hit me. The difference is Chaos and Cody. We experienced a moment of defeat together. We've spent months playing this game with each other, so when we go into Trials as a team we carry all of that weight with us. Of course, you can play Halo 5 with friends, too. You can play multiplayer with the same people for months at a time, experiencing exciting victories and painful defeat. But in a way, a game like Halo will always be static. Each match takes place in its own little bubble, with little affect on the one before or the one after. This is where Destiny's loot, or more specifically Destiny's persistent world, does matter. We each have a personal history within the world of Destiny. Different things we have worked towards over time, different goals we have succeeded or failed to achieve. Last night was not the first time we have failed to get to the Lighthouse together, but it was not the same as our other defeats. Because in many ways, Destiny is not the same game for me this week as it was last week or last month or last year. So a moment of heartbreak in Destiny becomes yet another part of my history with the game, while a similar situation in Halo 5 makes me think "this isn't really fun I think I'll stop playing".

Does this make any sense? What do you all think about this?

In Halo, we didn't need to grind SWAT games over and over to RNG for the Legendary Battle Rifle, and then play modes Bungie wanted us to so we could finish bounties to unlock the three shot burst perk on it. We play SWAT because we're on Team HBO and it's Team HBO vs The World.

Destiny giving us "goals" is plain and simple Destiny withholding content from us to stretch out how long it takes for us to exhaust what content it has. Bungie has said this outright. And that's okay, I think we all know that.

Halo has traditionally given us access to it's entire sandbox, and the rest of the time is spent enjoying it for what it is. I think Halo is a much more honest experience. Custom games and Forge make sense for Halo, but seem at odds with how Destiny is designed.

Obviously Halo 5 has this REQ system garbage, but it isn't the foundation for the game and has limited penetration.

Failing so many times during a blind Raid, then finally putting the pieces together and executing to get that particular encounter done is unparalleled by any gaming experience I've had.

Check out Another World. It's a 20 year old game that was remastered and is available on XBone (maybe others, haven't checked). It's a relatively simple 2D sidescroller but it's the closest thing I've found to that blind raid feeling. Playing it gives me some idea of what all those Dark Souls fans are on about (though I still hate that game).

We've had the discussion here before that failure needs to happen more often in Destiny. Remember when HoW came out, and we got our asses kicked by the Wolf packs? Or when we could finally beat the Wolf packs, but then you got that lucky encounter in Skywatch with a Wolf pack, Warsat, and Urzok, and it became difficult to complete one event, much less two (or three!). That's still one of the best experiences Destiny ever had, and failure definitely played into that. It was great to not be able to just breeze through it.

FWIW, Urzok is still a badass. I've seen him ruin a few 290+ characters' days, including my own.

I got some play time with both Halo and Black Ops this week, both with friends, and I have to say I was missing both the old Halo and Destiny.

Halo 5 has weapons and feel issues. My character doesn't feel like the peak of special forces wearing a high tech armored suit. I was getting wiped by those little Promethian dogs, let alone the knights or soldiers. The integration of ADS with Halo isn't managed well, with a single shot knocking you out and ruining the shot combined with lots of weapons with tracking and high rates of fire. I severely missed Destiny's jumps and the melees felt underpowered, even when you did the charge. The weapons themselves mostly seem weak, even though they added some diversity from 4. There are a few standouts, but it still feels somewhat generic.

The art however is top notch and colorful, almost blindingly so after the grey brown of BOIII and the greens of the Dreadnought. As I feared, my buddies found the plot nonsensical and a bit COD like.

In contrast the plot in COD is somewhat improved, the movement and weapons seem fairly well integrated and what you would expect from that series and it didn't seem to be competently implemented. Still brown and filled with grind. I'm not sure how I feel about that last part. The COD grind has some plusses in that you have a clear path to what you want, but you regrind so much it gets frustrating at times. Do I really have to unlock the same scope on every gun? Sigh…

Still, I think Destiny does the best job of making the challenge unique, and hiding the repetiiton (except for mouldering shards gah! Drop something else you stupid war priest!) Destiny also has the broadest list of challenges, all these exotic quests and raid shaders and trials, that you don't feel so bad if you can't get them all, but you will at least feel like you can try and still have fun.

The integration of ADS with Halo isn't managed well, with a single shot knocking you out and ruining the shot combined with lots of weapons with tracking and high rates of fire.

I disagree with most of what you said (I think Halo 5 feels amazing, almost on par with Destiny), but this complaint in particular is one I've seen a lot, and one that amuses me. Halo has traditionally knocked you out of zoom (which is the closest analog to ADS in all other Halo games) when getting shot. I know Reach and 4 didn't work that way (I can't remember if Halo 3 did or not), but it's not unknown from Halo.

That being said, I think it feels initially weird because of holding the left trigger for ADS, versus clicking the right thumbstick for zoom in classic Halo. It feels odd when you're still holding down the left trigger, but you're not still aiming down the sights. Other than that, the actual mechanics are fine.

Check out Another World. It's a 20 year old game that was remastered and is available on XBone (maybe others, haven't checked). It's a relatively simple 2D sidescroller but it's the closest thing I've found to that blind raid feeling. Playing it gives me some idea of what all those Dark Souls fans are on about (though I still hate that game).

Similar is Abe's Odysee and Abe's Exodus on PS1. Don't play the remake on psn / xbl though, because it sucks ass. I would similarly be weary of a remastered Out of this World. I haven't tried the remake though.

It's the people.

I really loved that game back in the day. I should play through it again.

It's the skinner box + social interaction that keeps you coming back.

I find that what Luke Smith says is true, to an extent. It is more memorable because of the ups and downs. Unfortunately for me, it's a game, a place I come to escape my troubles. So at times the downs come at a time when I need an up. More often than not it's a very enjoyable experience though. Which is why I keep coming back. =)

It's the skinner box + social interaction that keeps you coming back.

I find that what Luke Smith says is true, to an extent. It is more memorable because of the ups and downs. Unfortunately for me, it's a game, a place I come to escape my troubles. So at times the downs come at a time when I need an up. More often than not it's a very enjoyable experience though. Which is why I keep coming back. =)

But you can't really have those ups if downs aren't possible. I mean right? If you can't actually lose, what does winning even mean? If after 9 games you just went to the lighthouse regardless of the outcome, would that be meaningful?

Back a long time ago in a game design debate on HBO, Narcogen said the perfect game would be the one where you are always almost failing, but come out on top. So the illusion of failure. But if you can't really fail, then winning means nothing. He was and still is wrong.

Not only does failure increase tension, but it makes victory even better.

I remember liking super meat boy a lot, but playing it again on the PS4 it seems to have completely lost its fun. Why I think, is because before, I was trying to speed run it, and basically finish it with no or minimal deaths. Deep within the run if you died, well that's just devastating. But playing it casually, there is absolutely no penalty for failure. You have infinite lives, spawn instantly, and have to overcome bite sized challenges. And so each victory feels completely hollow.

It's a fine line for me.

If a game is too easy, I may enjoy it until I get bored and never finish. It's like using a wall hack in a shooter -- people used to do that all the time on the PC shooters back in the day. They would do that because it was about winning to them, about the prestige of being on the winning team. The "my tribe is better than your tribe" thing. it's the guys who teabag you when they triple team you while you were afk, as though they did something meaningful somehow.

I'm not into that. I don't want to win to win... I want to enjoy the journey. I want to struggle, to work at it. Yes, even to fail. But I want to know that it's possible.

On the flipside, if it's too hard then I'll give up in frustration and chalk it up to abusive mechanics. We've all played games where you knew exactly what you had to do, and after an hour or two, you give up until another day. A day that may or may not come. Because you know what to do, it's a matter of being perfect with the controls. But sometimes, taking hours to get a 5-15 minute sequence down to perfection just isn't worth the time and effort. I've got better things to do.

Most of the time destiny walks this line for me pretty well. King's fall going in blind was a great example of this. Yeah it was brutally hard at first, but we knew it was possible. So we stuck with it and learned the raid on our own terms. I think we would have gotten oryx down without looking anything up if we had stopped and come back fresh another day. That's a great challenge, and one I'm willing to do given I'm ready for the expenditure of energy that it takes to do that. It's amazing, not only for the game, but for the social experience of it. Stuff like that keeps me coming back for more.

I can play easy mode with strikes or mess around in patrol. Or I can do things like the nightfall, raid or trials, which at times push me to my limits. Destiny has something for everyone. For the most part it walks this line well.

Trials... well, trials is Bungie's hardcore PvP mode. I don't begrudge them this. I think it fills a fantastic niche and I think it's fine for a tournament style event. When it is the only event, other than the hard-mode raid, which can drop 310-320 items, I get a little grumbly. It's more than just a tournament. It's one of two things in the game that gives out high level items. It's trying to fill a couple different purposes, but because of that it creates divides between the playerbase, and the social side of "fun" suffers.

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It's the skinner box + social interaction that keeps you coming back.

I find that what Luke Smith says is true, to an extent. It is more memorable because of the ups and downs. Unfortunately for me, it's a game, a place I come to escape my troubles. So at times the downs come at a time when I need an up. More often than not it's a very enjoyable experience though. Which is why I keep coming back. =)

But you can't really have those ups if downs aren't possible. I mean right? If you can't actually lose, what does winning even mean? If after 9 games you just went to the lighthouse regardless of the outcome, would that be meaningful?

Back a long time ago in a game design debate on HBO, Narcogen said the perfect game would be the one where you are always almost failing, but come out on top. So the illusion of failure. But if you can't really fail, then winning means nothing. He was and still is wrong.

I think you may have either misunderstood or misinterpreted me. Frankly I agree that high points are meaningless in the absence of lows, and that wins are meaningless without losses. If anything, though, what I always wanted was the possibility of non-death failure states without creating a regressive difficulty curve. That may be impractical or even impossible to implement, though. Destiny has addressed this, like other games have, by altering the death failure state, by allowing for certain specific limited revival mechanics.

With regard to the illusion of failure:

Challenges that beat you only through surprise-- because you don't and can't know what's coming-- are a common but cheap tactic. Monster closets, enemies that teleport behind the player, etc. They increase difficulty artificially and reduce gameplay to a loop of advancing to the next surprise, learning the pattern, and then waiting to be killed by the next surprise. Lots of games include such loops and execute them with varying degrees of competency, but I think there's something hollow about games that depend on them too much.

What I suggested was an encounter design that COULD be, but most likely WOULD NOT BE solved the first time through. Sort of like a mystery story where you never quite guess what the solution is, but upon it being revealed, you realize that it was obvious. The best difficulty curve, then, would be one in which the broadest portion of players would not immediately win, nor would progress be so difficult that they would quit; the ideal experience for the leading edge of the skill curve would be constantly almost, but not quite, failing. Not the illusion of failure but the constant presence of the possibility of failure without resorting to cheap tricks.

I think about Hunters in Halo 1. It's a simple trick you need to learn, but it would be false to call the threat an illusion. If you observe the weak point and exploit it, and execute that exploitation, you will win, and win repeatably and reliably. But the threat is not false-- if you fail to execute, you will die, and die in a way that seems fair-- because you failed to execute what you knew you needed to do.

Unlike, say, pouring thousands of projectiles into a massive enemy until you die because a timer expires, or being killed by something you did not and could not have seen in advance because in your first time in an encounter there is no way to anticipate where the enemy will attack from. That's why I think teleports and even monster closets are cheap, and dropships are generally preferable.

Being knocked out of ADS while still holding the trigger is what makes it so weird. I liked how it forced me to only use ADS when I was about to line up the headshot, though. With the jetpack moves and this, H5 feels a lot faster-paced than Destiny while at the same time holding a lot more weight than CoD.

I will occasionally hop into chat with my Destiny playing friends while I do something else and I instantly stop missing Destiny. The game's focus on fireteams and raid activities has created social peer pressure to continually log on in order to keep from letting your friends down, paired with the fun of playing with your friends.

I remember when I quit WoW, it was like I lost 50 friends all at once. It was really rough.

And I fully agree with it.

In Meat Boy PS4, that is. I couldn't get into playing it, despite loving it on 360. It actually feels different to me though, like it's not as responsive or something.

One of the best parts of any boss fight is learning the attack patterns so you can ultimately exploit them. But in order to learn them, you have to first experience them without prior knowledge of them, which could arguably be called cheap - "How was I supposed to know he'd tirn into a Snake and eat my car?!".

The line between cheap and a "puzzle" can be very fine, and I think it's very much down to the devs in making a world with consistent rules to help you learn how to deal with new threats. The Souls series obviously springs to mind, as do many Metroidvanias and zelda games (which are totally just 3D ametroidvanias, but people get upset when I say that).

But! I feel like actually failing can sometimes be better than almost failing. Depending on the type of game, an "I'll get him next time" can be much more driving (and satisfying) than an overly forgiving first time. A near miss is nice, but an earned victory is better.

In Meat Boy PS4, that is. I couldn't get into playing it, despite loving it on 360. It actually feels different to me though, like it's not as responsive or something.

Yes the new music is awful. Also you are right. They fucked up the port and there's delay. I noticed it too. Absolutely inexcusable given the kind of game it is. I vowed never to buy anything from team meat ever again after the Mac version of super meat boy was literally unplayable, and they had no support whatsoever. I only have it for PS4 because it was free. They are completely incompetent.

Being knocked out of ADS while still holding the trigger is what makes it so weird. I liked how it forced me to only use ADS when I was about to line up the headshot, though. With the jetpack moves and this, H5 feels a lot faster-paced than Destiny while at the same time holding a lot more weight than CoD.

Yeah, I've really had to relearn Halo style play, and not use ADS for every weapon. Unless it's got a zoom (Magnum, BR, DMR, etc.), there is absolutely no benefit to it. In fact, it slows you down, so it only harms you. Heck, I've gotten to where I really don't ADS with the Magnum much; it's range is such that it's really effective right on the edge of the range where you feel like maybe you should zoom.

It's a fine line for me.

If a game is too easy, I may enjoy it until I get bored and never finish. It's like using a wall hack in a shooter -- people used to do that all the time on the PC shooters back in the day. They would do that because it was about winning to them, about the prestige of being on the winning team. The "my tribe is better than your tribe" thing. it's the guys who teabag you when they triple team you while you were afk, as though they did something meaningful somehow.

I'm not into that. I don't want to win to win... I want to enjoy the journey. I want to struggle, to work at it. Yes, even to fail. But I want to know that it's possible.

On the flipside, if it's too hard then I'll give up in frustration and chalk it up to abusive mechanics. We've all played games where you knew exactly what you had to do, and after an hour or two, you give up until another day. A day that may or may not come. Because you know what to do, it's a matter of being perfect with the controls. But sometimes, taking hours to get a 5-15 minute sequence down to perfection just isn't worth the time and effort. I've got better things to do.

Treyarch put out a great Vidoc about Zombies (it all started because of a single animation), and one of the things that stuck out to me is when they say that while they know that failure is inevitable, the important thing is what players put the blame on for their failures. Successful design means that a player blames himself and his own choices for his failure rather than the game.

And punishing a player is important as well, because you learn better about what works and what doesn't.

Most of the time destiny walks this line for me pretty well. King's fall going in blind was a great example of this. Yeah it was brutally hard at first, but we knew it was possible. So we stuck with it and learned the raid on our own terms. I think we would have gotten oryx down without looking anything up if we had stopped and come back fresh another day. That's a great challenge, and one I'm willing to do given I'm ready for the expenditure of energy that it takes to do that. It's amazing, not only for the game, but for the social experience of it. Stuff like that keeps me coming back for more.

Sammy and I are playing Black Ops 3 on Realistic difficulty, and what surprises me is how much more fun we've been having than when we played on Hardened. Getting downed is frustrating, but more often than not, it's a result of a bad choice that we've made. We're given all of the tools that we need to succeed, and it's on us to use them well. Because we click well on strategy, it's been easier than I had thought it would be, even if we're a good ways away from the finish line. I'd love to see how players react to a similar challenge, and the existing examples are interesting:

When given a tough roadblock like defending the SABRE Warsat, players are happy going under the map to save time.

When given a tough mission, like the Black Spindle challenge, players will bash their heads against the wall for hours.

Is the reward the difference, or is it the challenge itself? I know many folks who have the Spindle already, but are willing to help others tackle the challenge for hours, so it can't just be the carrot.

I can play easy mode with strikes or mess around in patrol. Or I can do things like the nightfall, raid or trials, which at times push me to my limits. Destiny has something for everyone. For the most part it walks this line well.

Trials... well, trials is Bungie's hardcore PvP mode. I don't begrudge them this. I think it fills a fantastic niche and I think it's fine for a tournament style event. When it is the only event, other than the hard-mode raid, which can drop 310-320 items, I get a little grumbly. It's more than just a tournament. It's one of two things in the game that gives out high level items. It's trying to fill a couple different purposes, but because of that it creates divides between the playerbase, and the social side of "fun" suffers.

Yeah, we're in an awkward phase where endgame content narrowed significantly, but let's give it some time... Bungie's still learning.

Also, I'm sad that there are not Trials equivalents in other games. BO3 has an Arena, but that's too large scale for me. Something small, tight, and rewarding like Trials is pretty unique right now...

Thanks for that video, very insightful. I enjoy post-mortems like that very much.

When given a tough roadblock like defending the SABRE Warsat, players are happy going under the map to save time.

When given a tough mission, like the Black Spindle challenge, players will bash their heads against the wall for hours.

Is the reward the difference, or is it the challenge itself? I know many folks who have the Spindle already, but are willing to help others tackle the challenge for hours, so it can't just be the carrot.

Your examples of the SABRE mission warsat and black spindle are good ones. For me I think it's pretty easy to say why people will help their friends on the spindle mission. number one, it's part of the coop social experience. It's more fun to play with friends and help them get to where you've been. secondarily, there's the ship drop that keeps some players playing it over and over. And lastly, it's new content. It's you getting to show your friends something you found worthwhile.

The warsat is a challenge that takes a while and feels a bit RNG-ish. It doesn't promote team play much, mostly just every man for himself, res when you can. Then on to the more meaningful stuff. (one of these days I'm going to start the warsat then go try and get into his bunker the other way, just to see if it's a possible alternate route)

Trials... well, trials is Bungie's hardcore PvP mode. I don't begrudge them this. I think it fills a fantastic niche and I think it's fine for a tournament style event. When it is the only event, other than the hard-mode raid, which can drop 310-320 items, I get a little grumbly. It's more than just a tournament. It's one of two things in the game that gives out high level items. It's trying to fill a couple different purposes, but because of that it creates divides between the playerbase, and the social side of "fun" suffers.

Yeah, we're in an awkward phase where endgame content narrowed significantly, but let's give it some time... Bungie's still learning.

Also, I'm sad that there are not Trials equivalents in other games. BO3 has an Arena, but that's too large scale for me. Something small, tight, and rewarding like Trials is pretty unique right now...

I agree, Bungie has room to improve but they are also paying attention. I'm not too worried on the lack of content, just a little surprised. It seems like, once the campaign and initial quests are done, you kind of hit a grindy wall. That's MMOs for you. I hope that changes sooner, rather than later. That may be the ultimate goal of the micro-transactions team, to keep the in-between times filled with interesting content.

I think that there are trials equivalents in other games, in differing forms. Starcraft has a ladder system that is similar. I fondly remember playing elimination on the teleport map at lan parties with halo 1. And the elimination gametype reminds me of my counter-strike days. All these things rhyme to me, and I'm glad bungie is putting thought and effort into crafting such things. It seems as though they really are trying to make it so you can have as much content in PvP as PvE so players have a choice.

Same. I mean, I haven't actually played the original, but that's my understanding, that it's basically identical other than the graphics being slightly updated. And I do mean slightly - as far as I can tell (you can switch between old and new freely) it's the same artwork, just with the jagged edges smoothed out.

Fun fact: While Smartscoping with non-precision weapons has no impact to initial accuracy, it actually shrinks their potential cone of fire. So full-auto SMG or AR fire while Smartscoped will have a smaller cone (final accuracy) than when you are not scoped. It greatly increases your effective range in any non-direct confrontation.

Heck, I've gotten to where I really don't ADS with the Magnum much; it's range is such that it's really effective right on the edge of the range where you feel like maybe you should zoom.

Wait, you USE the magnum? I thought the whole point of the magnum was as a placeholder until you picked up the first weapon you saw!

Heck, I've gotten to where I really don't ADS with the Magnum much; it's range is such that it's really effective right on the edge of the range where you feel like maybe you should zoom.

Wait, you USE the magnum? I thought the whole point of the magnum was as a placeholder until you picked up the first weapon you saw!

You're joking, right?

The Halo 5 Magnum destroys. I have mainly been playing Warzone Assault, so I switch the Magnum for a BR once I hit REQ level 3, but until that point, the Magnum is a beast. Hell, I've taken out plenty of people with it while they were using a BR or DMR. Those two weapons are better than the Magnum, but the Magnum is good enough that you're not just automatically screwed.

It's my tool of destruction by a pretty wide margin.

And by and even wider margin in Arena.

In short, I love the Magnum. (:

Heck, I've gotten to where I really don't ADS with the Magnum much; it's range is such that it's really effective right on the edge of the range where you feel like maybe you should zoom.

Wait, you USE the magnum? I thought the whole point of the magnum was as a placeholder until you picked up the first weapon you saw!

You're joking, right?

The Halo 5 Magnum destroys. I have mainly been playing Warzone Assault, so I switch the Magnum for a BR once I hit REQ level 3, but until that point, the Magnum is a beast. Hell, I've taken out plenty of people with it while they were using a BR or DMR. Those two weapons are better than the Magnum, but the Magnum is good enough that you're not just automatically screwed.

It's my tool of destruction by a pretty wide margin.

And by and even wider margin in Arena.

In short, I love the Magnum. (:

So I haven't played multiplayer so I'm sure that makes a big difference. And don't get me wrong, I've loved the magnum on and off depending on the Halo game I'm playing, but so far it just hasn't felt right to me :(

It's hard being friends on the internet.

When you lose the place you normally interacted with them, it takes a lot of coordination to continue that friendship. It's still better than friends in real life. I mean, it's hard to pee in the sink while talking to friends IRL.

Honestly they earned so much goodwill from me for Meat Boy that I can't help but still like them. I didn't know about the Mac port, but I always wait for reviews anyway so it doesn't really affect me.

So I haven't played multiplayer so I'm sure that makes a big difference. And don't get me wrong, I've loved the magnum on and off depending on the Halo game I'm playing, but so far it just hasn't felt right to me :(

Honestly, I initially felt the same way. It's a pretty "meh" weapon in the campaign (although still useful). Multiplayer is where it really shines, at least for me.

I mean, it's hard to pee in the sink while talking to friends IRL.

Not too hard, apparently.

Still would rather use a BR, but damn if it isn't great

I mean, it's hard to pee in the sink while talking to friends IRL.

The only time when I ever pee in the sink is when I have a raging erection and don't feel like contorting myself to get it in the toilet. Does this mean whenever you post here you're… hard?

Cut back to Halo 5. After completing the campaign on Heroic, I went back and started a playthrough on Legendary. I got as far as the first battle against the Warden. After banging my head against that encounter for an hour or so, I put the game down and haven't gone back. That was 10 days ago, and I've had absolutely no interest or desire to pick it back up and try again.

Man, you were close I bet. I just beat him. I played for a little over an hour maybe? If I can do it, I'm sure you can.

Strategy turned out to be mark him immediately so your team scatters around him. Take out crawlers that spawn in front of him in one shot. Shoot/grenade him until he's paralyzed, Run up platform on the left halfway, shooting him in the back, hope a teammate follows, give teammate the heavy that's up there, then headshot the heck out of him.

One thing I miss terribly are damage bars. Perhaps there are cues I haven't picked up on yet, but every Warden I've killed surprised me when they died.

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All I did was play them like we played Hunters back in H1. Sprint right towards the Warden, jet-boost right under his arm, turn and Scattershot to the back. Rinse, repeat until dead.

Either that or Incendiary Cannon to the face until dead.

... you'll still have that mental picture burned into your brain. Forever.

(A movie that doesn't exist, but this scene does): Where Rob Riggle and Mark Wahlberg are buddy cops, and they both have to pee, but the urinal is broken because they smashed a bad guy's head against it in an earlier scene, so rob goes past the sink to pee in the toilet, and Mark tries to wait, but the sound of Rob peeing makes him have to pee super bad, so he pees in the sink, but because he's short, instead of standing near it and peeing down, he stands far away from it and arcs in it. Then Rob finishes and wants to walk out, but Mark's peeing, so Rob (who is really tall) has to duck down to sort of duck-walk under the pee stream to get by, and right as he's about to get past, Mark stops so all the pressure in his pee stream fades and Mark ends up peeing on Rob Riggle.

One day I'm gonna finish this movie, and it's gonna be awesome.

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I will occasionally hop into chat with my Destiny playing friends while I do something else and I instantly stop missing Destiny. The game's focus on fireteams and raid activities has created social peer pressure to continually log on in order to keep from letting your friends down, paired with the fun of playing with your friends.

I remember when I quit WoW, it was like I lost 50 friends all at once. It was really rough.

This is why I think that current online game design paradigm around the social focusing on the internet is ultimately wrong. The correct way is to focus on local multiplayer, or online worlds that aren't "persistent".

When so much of the social interaction is dependent on other players online, this creates pressure to keep people playing, which in turn leads to grindy and manipulative designs, which in turn leads to having to play all the time which leads to the problem you describe.

I think a true social co-operative game would be a game that's set up like a single player RPG, but would require multiple players. It's not really that far fetched is it? Board games require multiple people. So does Dungeons and Dragons. Or poker.

Raids are the closest thing to this. You have to pre-arrange them. You can't just jump in. So what if you made your whole game that way? What if you tried to make that campaign / story experience, but have it be co-op only? Nobody has tried this, and I think it would preserve the aspect of playing with friends, while completely eliminating the need to gut your game design to manipulate people into spending way more time online than they need to.

Honestly they earned so much goodwill from me for Meat Boy that I can't help but still like them. I didn't know about the Mac port, but I always wait for reviews anyway so it doesn't really affect me.

Mac Port is fixed at windowed 640 x 480. Mac Port does not have gamepad support.

As I said, it's absolutely unplayable, and utterly shameful it exists in such a state.

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There are a lot of board games that can be played single player that are otherwise co-op players v. game, and I've known people to run side campaigns of Pen and Paper stuff under circumstances where either their group was unavailable due to real life, or no one else wanted to play a social politics Sidereal Exalted campaign at that point in time.

It is interesting to me, with Destiny Specifically, that I'll actually occupy my idle game time with other games (I still have AssCreed Black Flag to finish, and I've completed a bunch of other games since Destiny came out, and I've been mixing in some Halo 5 here and there) especially when my friends aren't online, but if a group gathers we gather for Destiny nine times out of ten. Usually for a Raid or some Crucible hijinks. Weekends bring coordinated Trials games (sometimes winning 5:0 when we've otherwise given up and are all maining sidearms) and weekdays often have people splitting into Nightfall Teams and King's Fall.

I think that the recent Extra Credits video (Here) on Destiny illustrates my feelings on it well, and in a lot of ways for me, Destiny plays out how you're asking for it, albeit in a non-arbitrary fashion.

Referring to Destiny as comfort food sums up my current feelings on the game, and in a greater gaming ecosystem I don't feel terribly subjected to some of the game decisions other people seem to have conflict with.

So what if you made your whole game that way? What if you tried to make that campaign / story experience, but have it be co-op only? Nobody has tried this

Technically, the co-op campaign is separate from the single player campaign. But if you want to finish the whole thing, you technically* need 2 ppl

*i believe someone was able to solo it, although that is like someone soloing a raid that was meant for a full fireteam.