So... Is it ok that one class is "meant" to have a bad k/d? (Destiny)
by Ragashingo 
, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, December 05, 2015, 02:01 (3372 days ago)
As you can see, the Sunbreakers (Solar Titan) average KD is high (~1.06), while the other Titans are in the basement. For the Defender (Void Titan), that's actually okay, because they're intended primarily as a support Class.
Um... what the hell? Ok, ok... Defender is my primary class. I get that a team that plays well along side a Defender can be very powerful... but...
Why can't the Defender class be good on its own?! And is a negative average k/d made up for my the positive k/ds of every other class when you realistically only get Ward of Dawn three or so times a game? Is getting my grenade and largely useless melee back 3 extra times a game (when they already come back within 30 seconds or so anyway with my Strength / Discipline build) really going to be a game changer that shifts the utterly pathetic two sided Titan PvP usage chart from Defenders being non-existant to being part of a three way balance like the other two classes?
Yeah... I don't think so. :(
I still think this was a decent Titan update, but the more I consider the changes the Defender got the more I think they are still being blatantly underserved by the way Bungie has set up their powers.
Issues that will remain with Defenders:
- Ward of Dawn is still at least a much of a "aim here" marker for the enemy as it is something that will help you or your team out. And it can still be penetrated by several enemy Supers leaving you worse off for activating your "instant base" than if you'd just turned and ran away.
- One grenade (spike) is still practically useless.
- Disintegrate loses vs every other charged melee. Seriously. Everyone other class is getting damage over time (Sunbreaker / Sunsinger) an overshield on merely a hit (Sunsinger / Voidwalker with the correct armor) has a extra-ranged melee attack (Bladedancer / all Warlocks / Stormcallerx2 / Gunslinger / Nightstalker) or extra damage (Striker). What does the Defender get? 9 times out of 10? Absolutely nothing. Because you almost never activate Force Barrier in the Crucible. Because every single other melee is better than yours. And even on the off chance you do get to use Force Barrier it usually isn't worth all the damage you took to get it. Simply winning a back and forth melee battle leaves you in worse shape with Force Barrier than if you'd just stayed back and shot the guy to death from a safer range...
- Defenders still simply cannot in any way get Super kills for applicable Crucible bounties (if any still exist...)
Defenders are still terrific for PvE. They'll be marginally better with their abilities coming back when using their Super. But in the Crucible? I think they're going to remain the little sliver of purple too thin to actually list their name until Bungie stops considering it ok for them not to stand up to any of the other classes... :>(
It might not be as cut and dry as the statement sounds
by Avateur 
, Saturday, December 05, 2015, 02:09 (3372 days ago) @ Ragashingo
edited by Avateur, Saturday, December 05, 2015, 02:13
It's an odd design philosophy, but I almost view it in a skirmish-y way from Halo. My K/D ratio in previous Halo games would largely get hurt in certain playlists. I've always been very objective-oriented when in a game like that. I don't care if I get 20 kills and 100 deaths, I want that damn flag captured. I don't want that flag to reset, and if that means leaping out into certain death to touch it, I'll do it.
I'm wondering if Bungie's mentality isn't so much along the lines of "well, this class is meant to die" vs. "because they're taking the risk of doing this, they forfeit the ability to gain a boatload of kills with their super" or something of the sort. You know? Striker Titan could conceivably smash down onto all six enemy players if they're grouped up for whatever reason. They could also get that super a bunch of times a game depending upon the gametype and how well they kill or pick up teammate orbs. We all know how Sunbreakers roll. I think Bungie may be assuming that it'd make sense for the Defender class to go negative just based on not padding the K/D ratio with super kills.
It might not be as cut and dry as the statement sounds
by red robber , Crawfish Country, Saturday, December 05, 2015, 02:25 (3372 days ago) @ Avateur
It's an odd design philosophy, but I almost view it in a skirmish-y way from Halo. My K/D ratio in previous Halo games would largely get hurt in certain playlists. I've always been very objective-oriented when in a game like that. I don't care if I get 20 kills and 100 deaths, I want that damn flag captured. I don't want that flag to reset, and if that means leaping out into certain death to touch it, I'll do it.
I'm wondering if Bungie's mentality isn't so much along the lines of "well, this class is meant to die" vs. "because they're taking the risk of doing this, they forfeit the ability to gain a boatload of kills with their super" or something of the sort. You know? Striker Titan could conceivably smash down onto all six enemy players if they're grouped up for whatever reason. They could also get that super a bunch of times a game depending upon the gametype and how well they kill or pick up teammate orbs. We all know how Sunbreakers roll. I think Bungie may be assuming that it'd make sense for the Defender class to go negative just based on not padding the K/D ratio with super kills.
Yeah, I guess this is what they meant. Defenders and Sunsingers are the only classes that doesn't get actually kills from their super. However Sunsingers have great neutral games where as Defenders don't. I think something that would fit the Defender would be a bump in armor with a further reduction to agility. Make us a tank. Make our melee recharge our health on activation and give us the overshield since we have to kill to get it to activate.
Just that would be enough for now. Then give it a month or so and see how it pans out.
I think it's totally fine.
by CruelLEGACEY , Toronto, Saturday, December 05, 2015, 02:20 (3372 days ago) @ Ragashingo
The thing you haven't addressed in your post is the info that in a 6v6 gametype, teams with Defenders are substantially more likely to win than teams without Defenders. Bungie surfaced these stats a while back in one of their weekly updates (sorry, I don't have a link handy at the moment).
Personally, I'm ok with the idea of having a subclass that doesn't compete toe-to-toe with the others, but excels in a true "support" role.
I think it's totally fine.
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, December 05, 2015, 02:33 (3372 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
Assuming that's true (they did allude to Defenders being a big help in Trails in this update, after all) I'm just not sure watching my team win when the post game stats say I didn't contribute is good enough. I'd like to be more obvious that Defenders actually helped their team. Maybe every time a teammate gets a kill while under the influence of Ward of Dawn it could count as an assist? And something really needs to be done about Disintegrate being almost completely useless in the Crucible...
a few points
by electricpirate , Saturday, December 05, 2015, 03:19 (3372 days ago) @ Ragashingo
1. It's a pretty small delta between the highest class and the lowest class (.15 kd).
2. that Delta is probably exagerated by the perception of a class being weak so it doesn't attract the top tier players towards it.
3. the delta being smal makes sense, as really, Destiny is much more about guns than anything else. Defender Titan's weak Melee/super are only effecting a few kills per game.
4. That small a delta for a class that helps gives teams numerically gain more wins seems like a solid tradeoff.
5. I need to play with some actual peeps for the next IB so I can make the most out of my defender titan.
6. No Backup plans yo
a few points
by Ragashingo , Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, December 05, 2015, 04:18 (3372 days ago) @ electricpirate
3. the delta being smal makes sense, as really, Destiny is much more about guns than anything else. Defender Titan's weak Melee/super are only effecting a few kills per game.
This is a good point. When I play my Defender... heck when I played a Titan preSunbreaker... I always played more conservatively using guns and maneuvers instead of my throwing knives or shield generating melee or awesome tracking grenades. The problem there comes in that I could play that way with any other class AND have all sorts of extra backup tools. :(
4. That small a delta for a class that helps gives teams numerically gain more wins seems like a solid tradeoff.
But dying more than killing feels like a failure. Even if you helped hold multiple points and suppressed multiple supers none of is listed. Just: "Ragashingo .8 k/d"
6. No Backup plans yo
Oh trust me, I know! Those things have changed the way I play a Defender. I've been kicking ass since the revised NBPs came out. Actually getting to use Force Barrier is just amazing. Of course, they're about to take a major hit with the big reduction in Shotgun range. :(
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