Bungie and Deus Ex

This may be true of the old Bungie (pre 2000) more so than now, but I always thought Deus Ex was a very Bungie like game, and given their tastes for story and sci-fi, I always wondered why they would choose to tell the story of destiny with an MMO (it is guys) rather than with an RPG. It dawned on me again while playing Human Revolution again (shy of Deus Ex, but still good) that this type of game would be perfect for Bungie.

If you haven't played Deus Ex, then you should. It's easily at the top of the best games ever made. Not perfect, but mind blowingly good.

For those who never played:

Deus Ex is an RPG with strong FPS elements, which takes place in the near future and has a plot revolving around stopping a secret organization from merging with two AIs and controlling the world's flow of information. What makes it extraordinary is the way the story plays out.

First of all, a great deal is hidden away, easily missed unless you take your time to explore and find it. Little details are hidden, but some huge ones are as well. I know Bungie fans are inquisitive, so placing an insane number of tidbits, sidestories, clarification, and backstory seems like a great way to keep everybody engaged. You can discover twists way ahead of time if you are observant (or paranoid) enough. These things can be anything from sidequests, hidden areas, conversations, items, email, you name it. To access these you may need to hack, sneak, persuade, or break into places you shouldn't be. In short, the world feels huge since you touch upon so little of it unless you apply yourself.

The game system is set up so that you can power yourself up in various ways. There's not enough augmentation canisters or exp to level all skills and augs up, so you have to choose. And no matter what you choose, the game has challenges and ways to play tailoring to your choices. Up your lung capacity and swim through sewers and tunnels. Harden your skin against poison and radiation to sneak around normally lethal areas. Become a swift silent machine. Or buff yourself up with iron skin and heavy weapons and become a tank. Up to you. Either way, your choices open up the possibility of finding tons of cool story details.

The second thing that makes it cool is that the story accounts for all your choices and wraps around them. You're told by a superior to execute a hostage right as he starts saying some interesting things. What do you do? The story works if you kill him, or if you don't. Surprisingly though, you can turn your gun on your superior and kill her instead. There's no option telling you to do this. You just aim at her, and fire through the mechanics. She dies. And the story takes this into account! You have an amazing amount of freedom.

As such, shaping the story and diving deep through exploration is incredibly satisfying.

Human Revolution falters because it takes the lessons of Deus Ex, but lets you know it. It screams to you that there things are sidequests, that info is hidden here, etc. It lets you know there's hidden stuff and where it is, possibly so you find it and feel good (and get achievements, which is why they ruin games like this!). But that defeats the point. Deus Ex hid stuff and didn't tell you. I've played it perhaps 10 times through in 10 different ways and find new stuff each time.

So I really wondered why Deus Ex wasn't something Bungie would look up to, since it would seem to so perfectly fit with Bungie's desire to create a cool world that players would want to explore, tell a story, and still have a compelling game. Why is destiny focused on exp, loot, raid bosses, instead of shooting and exploring (with no reward other than information and story progression)? If everybody is supposed to be a hero, wouldn't the dizzying combinations of skills and augs Deus Ex has be a great way to make each character unique and desirable in groups?

In fact I wonder why NOBODY has really tried to make another game like Deus Ex, Bungie especially. It was built on ancient technology. The graphics were lacking. The AI was bad. I'm just surprised since with the talent and resources at Bungie, these issues wouldn't be issues.

I guess I'm most surprised that Bungie hasn't even TRIED when it seems like a perfect fit, and went the complete opposite way with Destiny.

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I always wondered why they would choose to tell the story of destiny with an MMO (it is guys)

I still disagree with this idea quite a bit. The more I read about the game I actually agree with their idea of calling it "shared world" more than calling it an MMO for one major reason: the normal structure of an MMO is that you start in a public world and when you go on quests you enter a private space. In Destiny from what they have revealed you start in a private space when you enter the playspace and then occasionally enter (very limited) public spaces when you encounter a public event. These two structures look very similar but they are almost opposite structures from each other. Not to mention because of matchmaking you can't just go to the same space as another player and expect to see them, which you CAN do in an MMO as long as you are on the same server. With these points alone it is easy to see why Bungie doesn't consider it an MMO, and I agree with them.

The closest Destiny resembles to an MMO is Phantasy Star Online, which has long been argued that's it's not really an MMO.

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about how it'll work in the City. Will you predominantly run into guardians you play with in the City? How often will you and your friends be in the City at the same time standing at the same point, and not see each other?

I seriously want to study whatever matchmaking they have driving this in depth.

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about how it'll work in the City. Will you predominantly run into guardians you play with in the City? How often will you and your friends be in the City at the same time standing at the same point, and not see each other?

I seriously want to study whatever matchmaking they have driving this in depth.

Yeah, until you posted it I think I assumed that would be the one place you'd be able to see everyone, but now that you mention it that would probably be too many people in one place. I personally hope that their matchmaking will take into account your friends list and try and include your friends that are in the same place whenever possible.

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I personally hope that their matchmaking will take into account your friends list and try and include your friends that are in the same place whenever possible.

Yeah, that would be nice. It'd be cool if there some in-game equivalent of foursquare where you could see where your friends were.

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I thoroughly enjoyed Deus Ex for all the reasons you mention. I agree with you about Human Revolution being too obvious about the side quests, and being overall disappointing. That said, there is an interesting GDC discussion of how the story was integrated into the game here.

I, too, hope that Destiny will have upgrades and enhancements that are not simply cosmetic, but allow players to have unique abilities. Imagine how those unique abilities could enhance public events and allow for much more varied events (not simply shootouts). I think we've seen only a fraction of what Bungie has in store, so I'm hoping for the best.

On a side note, two questions:

1. Has anyone played Deus Ex: The Fall for iOS? Any good?
2. I played Deus Ex in a Mac running OS9... circa 1999ish. Is there a more recent version or port out there that I can play on OS X?

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2. I played Deus Ex in a Mac running OS9... circa 1999ish. Is there a more recent version or port out there that I can play on OS X?

http://portingteam.com/files/file/7138-deus-ex/

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I agree on most points. Deus Ex was awesome. I'm hoping with a decade to work with bungie can give destiny that density, but I don't expect it in one game.

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It interests me that you praise Dues Ex, when the hooks are very similar to that of Destiny. Players spend so long creeping around these tunnels looking for nooks and crannies or doing missions for people for new gear, new guns, and upgrades! They want new scopes and silencers for their guns, more hacking tools, more money, and upgrade points. Even if the reward of a quest is information, most of the time, that information essentially results in a place to get more stuff.

For the vast majority of players, finding all the cool plot details is just there while they look for things to invest in their character. Really, Dues Ex's itemization is a carrot to get players exploring the world and drawing them deeper. In contrast, Bungie looks to use gear in destiny as a carrot get players to explore the world and play together. Both games use investment as a tool to get the player to interact with the world in more meaningful ways (one is in terms of plot, the other in terms of social play). Destiny is riffing off the idea a bit differently, and we are still missing lots of important detail on how the individual systems work. Hell, maybe Destinies systems *Won't* work; there's a lot we don't know there. Even so, your praise of Dues Ex clearly demonstrates that even for you, player investment systems can add tremendous value to a game. This all makes your blanket opposition to them curious, which leads me to believe either you don't understand the implications of your own arguments... or you just don't believe them.

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It interests me that you praise Dues Ex, when the hooks are very similar to that of Destiny. Players spend so long creeping around these tunnels looking for nooks and crannies or doing missions for people for new gear, new guns, and upgrades! They want new scopes and silencers for their guns, more hacking tools, more money, and upgrade points. Even if the reward of a quest is information, most of the time, that information essentially results in a place to get more stuff.

For the vast majority of players, finding all the cool plot details is just there while they look for things to invest in their character. Really, Dues Ex's itemization is a carrot to get players exploring the world and drawing them deeper. In contrast, Bungie looks to use gear in destiny as a carrot get players to explore the world and play together. Both games use investment as a tool to get the player to interact with the world in more meaningful ways (one is in terms of plot, the other in terms of social play). Destiny is riffing off the idea a bit differently, and we are still missing lots of important detail on how the individual systems work. Hell, maybe Destinies systems *Won't* work; there's a lot we don't know there. Even so, your praise of Dues Ex clearly demonstrates that even for you, player investment systems can add tremendous value to a game. This all makes your blanket opposition to them curious, which leads me to believe either you don't understand the implications of your own arguments... or you just don't believe them.

"Players spend so long [playing]...for new gear, new guns, and upgrades."

Disagree. I don't care about "stuff." I care about story.

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"Players spend so long [playing]...for new gear, new guns, and upgrades."

Disagree. I don't care about "stuff." I care about story.

Personal motivation is personal. I mean, if I had to spend resources and time to creep through a sewer just to get a bit of color from a computer, I'd be a little annoyed.

Either way, the point isn't that some people will do stuff just to get more story detail; those don't need any special design as a compelling world and good story is enough. For those that don't play for story, or maybe aren't committed to the world and story yet, this is a great way to draw them in.

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You think you've caught me.

Even so, your praise of Dues Ex clearly demonstrates that even for you, player investment systems can add tremendous value to a game. This all makes your blanket opposition to them curious, which leads me to believe either you don't understand the implications of your own arguments... or you just don't believe them.

Deus Ex is a role playing game. The system is meant to facilitate role playing. That's not a player investment system.

Powering up your character =! player investment system.

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Deus Ex is a role playing game. The system is meant to facilitate role playing. That's not a player investment system.
Powering up your character =! player investment system.

This is patently bullshit.

Levelling up an in-game skill like lock-picking has sod all to do with role-play. It's a player investment system, just like levelling up the ability to use a sniper rifle (theoretically) is. A player could choose to invest in seeking out locks to pick, or they could choose to invest their efforts elsewhere. It's the same basic premise whether it's in Deus Ex or Destiny.

At this point, you're a broken record, Cody. Please, either move on or shut the hell up.

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You think you've caught me.

Even so, your praise of Dues Ex clearly demonstrates that even for you, player investment systems can add tremendous value to a game. This all makes your blanket opposition to them curious, which leads me to believe either you don't understand the implications of your own arguments... or you just don't believe them.

Deus Ex is a role playing game. The system is meant to facilitate role playing. That's not a player investment system.

Powering up your character =! player investment system.

I'd say that powering your character up in any game is a "player investment system". Possibly the oldest really...

Even a game where the isn't the notion of "powering/levelling up" and you basically tailored your character:
"Oh I'd like to have more powerful hits, ah I see it will slow my character down, ok, that's how I like to play"

Is an "investment" on the part of the player, this is something they've put some thought into it and it's "theirs".

With that out of the way, you begin to discuss the positives and negatives of various "player investment systems" without descending into myopia.

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With that out of the way, you begin to discuss the positives and negatives of various "player investment systems" without descending into myopia.

Here's how I see it.

There are no fundamentally bad game mechanics. There are only bad implementations. Reward systems aren't intrinsically bad. There are just bad implementations of reward systems. Player investment systems aren't intrinsically bad. There are just bad implementations of player investment systems. Seeing a pattern? The important debate or discussion regarding Destiny, then, is just how these reward systems and player investment systems are going to work, and right now we simply do not know. It's utterly impossible to judge them, not only because they've not been discussed in depth, but also because you can't look at them in a vacuum.

A perfect example would be World of Warcraft's badge system. Introduced in the second expansion, the badge system was a way of allowing players to gradually accumulate a currency (by running ‘heroic’ 5-man dungeons) which could eventually be traded in for gear of equivalent level to that which you might otherwise get from running the most cutting-edge 25-man raids. This badge system allowed players to progress independently of the raiding endgame, which necessitated a massive time commitment. I for one never did any 25 man raiding back then — you would have to join a guild and raid for 4+ hours straight, 3-4 times a week. Just not something I would ever commit to. But even for the players that would commit to this, it still had problems.

For those who aren't aware, WoW operates on a gradual progression of levels and gearing. The original expansion had a level cap of 60. Once you reached this, you ceased gaining new levels, but you could still make your character more powerful by gaining better and better gear in dungeons and raids. The progression then went quest gear => dungeon gear => raid gear, but with new ‘tiers’ of raid being introduced gradually over time. These new tiers would be even harder than the previous ones, and so almost always necessitated most (if not all) of your raid members to be geared with the previous top tier's gear. Each time a new one was released you'd find yourselves feeling barely strong enough to survive, then over time as you defeated more and more of the raid's bosses and accumulated gear, you'd get stronger and stronger and so on.

The problem with this system (along with the aforementioned raid commitments) is that it's a relentless treadmill; if you ‘burned out’ (as many players did) from the raiding schedule, and took a break, your friends would presumably continue without you, and when you returned you would no longer be able to join them in the top tier of combat because you were — comparatively — too undergeared. But because these friends were on their relentless raiding schedule, it was very difficult for them to take time out of that as well in order to help you get geared up: for most of the players in the raid this content would be old, boring and none of the rewards would be of use to them. This led to raiding player numbers gradually falling away towards the end of the expansion's cycle, and eventually only something like 2% of players got to participate in the final tier.

The solution in the next expansion was completely overhaul the badge investment system. It actually received two major changes throughout the lifespan of the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, but I'll focus only on the second one, which I think was the most inspired. With this system, at any given point in the game there would be a current top-level tier of raid content, previous tier(s) of raid content and heroic 5-man dungeons. Defeating bosses in the top-level tier of raid content rewarded you with a currency called Emblem of Triumph; defeating bosses in either old raid tiers or heroic dungeons rewarded you with Emblem of Heroism. Emblems of Triumph permitted the purchase of gear of equivalent level to the current top-level tier, whilst Emblems of Heroism permitted the purchase of any other gear previously only available with Emblems of Triumph. Each time a new raid tier was introduced, every player's stash of Triumph badges would be converted into Heroism badges (and consolidated), and the purchase cost of previous top-tier items would be changed to Heroism badges.

The outcome of this system was straightforward: if any player took a break from the game, they could quickly and easily gear up to the level of the tier immediately prior to the current top-tier by accumulating badges, and they could do this in any of a number of ways (raiding, dungeons, daily and weekly quests). It also made it feasible for players to level up a second character class and quickly bring that player to a level where they could participate in the top-tier of content.

The point of this long and somewhat technical discussion is that how a player investment system works cannot be considered in a vacuum. It is fundamentally tied to the behaviours of players that arise from both the social side (burnout!) and the surrounding game mechanics, and unforeseen emergent effects (the tier system gulf). Was Blizzard's solution perfect? Almost certainly not — they've continued to iterate on it in subsequent years, replacing badges with a points system, and then ultimately replacing a system where you can buy ‘top-tier’ gear with one where you upgrade already-purchased gear. I've not played much in the current expansion so almost everything I know about how it works currently isn't first hand. As WoW continues to evolve, I don't doubt they'll change it even further in the expansions they're working on next.

As an aside, where Destiny is concerned, I am adamant that they will need to iterate and evolve as they go, which is part of the reason why I feel like Bungie's no comment approach isn't worthwhile; whatever they choose to reveal at release will inevitably change over the years, so they shouldn't feel like we're going to get too wed to shape it takes upon its final reveal.

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It also has to do with different strokes for different folks.

Some people like to collect bugs in real life, some people don't. Same goes for playing ACNL.

I have a casual disinterest in "becoming more powerful" outside of my own skills, but do find playing around with new gameplay concepts, "oh this gun shoots LIGHTNING, but has a really small clip, I'll see how it fits my play style".

People like to strut around with shoulders they've secured from raiding and that's all well and good. But I doubt that the things I'll be discussing with my group of friends years down the line will involve any 'loot' we find in Destiny. Instead I'm confident that it will involve situations like this, this, this, or even this. Really though, had a rather whimsical evening reviewing those clips with my first pick for my Destiny fireteam (I mean seriously, that rocket somehow missed that mongoose, hill, AND NAILED that packed warthog).

If the player investment systems that Bungie are working on bring even MORE players into the world my friends and I play in, that is exciting and awesome, I look forward to making new memories with my fellow guardians. The moment those 20s rolled over the hill and participated in the public event at E3 I felt like Bungie was nodding in my direction saying "those numbers aren't going to get in the way of you playing with your mates, old and new alike".

Ah, now I am all excited.

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You think you've caught me.

Deus Ex is a role playing game. The system is meant to facilitate role playing. That's not a player investment system.

Powering up your character =! player investment system.

So you concede that leveling and gear like what's featured in Destiny can work to improve a shooter RPG hybrid like Destiny or Dues ex. It's good to know that you've finally admitted the obvious.

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It interests me that you praise Dues Ex, when the hooks are very similar to that of Destiny. Players spend so long creeping around these tunnels looking for nooks and crannies or doing missions for people for new gear, new guns, and upgrades!

I'm one of the first to jump on Cody when I think he's full of it, but I think you're misinterpreted his argument. When he talks about hidden content, it is not hidden weapons or gear or upgrades (although it may include those). He means game content-- gameplay and story, not collectibles or items. He means that parts of the story only proceed in a certain manner when you take action that has not been specifically suggested as an option.

That said, it doesn't take everything into account. I killed Navarre on an airplane and then carried her dead body into my boss' office and he never noticed. Can't anticipate everything, I guess.

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It interests me that you praise Dues Ex, when the hooks are very similar to that of Destiny. Players spend so long creeping around these tunnels looking for nooks and crannies or doing missions for people for new gear, new guns, and upgrades!

I'm one of the first to jump on Cody when I think he's full of it, but I think you're misinterpreted his argument. When he talks about hidden content, it is not hidden weapons or gear or upgrades (although it may include those). He means game content-- gameplay and story, not collectibles or items. He means that parts of the story only proceed in a certain manner when you take action that has not been specifically suggested as an option.

That said, it doesn't take everything into account. I killed Navarre on an airplane and then carried her dead body into my boss' office and he never noticed. Can't anticipate everything, I guess.

"hey Denton, how's it hanging, oh.... what did you DO?"

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It interests me that you praise Dues Ex, when the hooks are very similar to that of Destiny. Players spend so long creeping around these tunnels looking for nooks and crannies or doing missions for people for new gear, new guns, and upgrades!

I'm one of the first to jump on Cody when I think he's full of it, but I think you're misinterpreted his argument. When he talks about hidden content, it is not hidden weapons or gear or upgrades (although it may include those). He means game content-- gameplay and story, not collectibles or items. He means that parts of the story only proceed in a certain manner when you take action that has not been specifically suggested as an option.

That said, it doesn't take everything into account. I killed Navarre on an airplane and then carried her dead body into my boss' office and he never noticed. Can't anticipate everything, I guess.

Nope, I understand his argument. My point is that the gear and loot acts as the carrot to get people to that hidden content. Story bits, and world building isn't enough for all the players to go hunting through this world (and I'd guess that it's not even a significant minority).

Cody has maintained that no good can come from player investment systems, but he's presenting a really compelling argument for why they can be used (IE, modifying character player to draw them deeper into the story)

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The devil is in the details. The statement Powering Up Character != Player Investment might be better stated as Powering Up Character should not be meaningless Player Investment.

I believe Cody's opinion in a nuanced one. It is hard to specifically define the border between meaningful character growth and skinner-box investment, but I know it when I see it. I think we all do on some level.

Cody has maintained that no good can come from player investment systems, but he's presenting a really compelling argument for why they can be used (IE, modifying character player to draw them deeper into the story)

It seems to me that Cody has been saying essentially the same thing all along...Bungie, please deliver a game I'll enjoy. Do whatever you're going to do, but please get it right. You might think that's a bullshit sentiment, but consider Bungie's games over the last 10(ish) years:

Halo CE (epic)
Halo 2 (good)
Halo 3 (decent)
Halo ODST (fabulous)
Halo Reach (meh)

Obviously, my opinions are subjective and personal. Reach may have been the most expensive, ambitious, and technically polished of the group but I enjoyed it the least (by far). Halo 3's multiplayer was very successful, but I really ~~hate with every fiber of my being~~ dislike the player controls and response. ODST was the smallest endeavor, but easily my second favorite.

Same developer, same genre, same IP, same universe - but widely varied enjoyment. Halo CE was no guarantee that I would enjoy Bungie's future FPS games.

My hope is that a new universe invigorates, and that Staten and the impetus that defined ODST is in Destiny's DNA. They are going to make a game they love to play - but I'm not sure I love to play the games Bungie loves to play. Heresy, I know.

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The devil is in the details. The statement Powering Up Character != Player Investment might be better stated as Powering Up Character should not be meaningless Player Investment.

Absolutely, that's the point that I'm having so much fun making here. Cody seems to think the player powering up systems in Destiny are the latter. Why? He seems to have trouble with that part. I'm prodding him to actual explain that position, because his defenses of it so far have been very poor.

I believe Cody's opinion in a nuanced one. It is hard to specifically define the border between meaningful character growth and skinner-box investment, but I know it when I see it. I think we all do on some level.

I'd like to believe that too, in fact I'm sure he has some deeper thoughts on it,but judging from what he's written, his arguments are full of holes, and self defeating logic.

Cody has maintained that no good can come from player investment systems, but he's presenting a really compelling argument for why they can be used (IE, modifying character player to draw them deeper into the story)

It seems to me that Cody has been saying essentially the same thing all along...Bungie, please deliver a game I'll enjoy. Do whatever you're going to do, but please get it right.

I'd disagree here, I feel like he's rooting for failure. Like he would prefer Destiny to not work to vindicate his views. That's the feeling I get more from his postings. That combined with the fact that his arguments aren't very good, but well written, which is why I enjoy replying to him ;).

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Absolutely, that's the point that I'm having so much fun making here. Cody seems to think the player powering up systems in Destiny are the latter. Why? He seems to have trouble with that part. I'm prodding him to actual explain that position, because his defenses of it so far have been very poor.

I don't know for sure, since nobody knows what Destiny really is. That being said:

There is a difference between leveling up / advancing a character to make the game easier vs doing the same to make the game harder or more complex.

Think of it this way. You level up in a JRPG or Diablo or something. You are more powerful, so the game becomes easier. You can kill enemies you couldn't before. This doesn't make the game more complex.

Leveling up in Deus Ex on the other hand, DOES make the game more complex, because the designers made this cool world which you could tackle in many different way with many different skill and augmentation combinations, each enabling a very different experience.

Think of it this way:

Bad: You should always level up, since there's no downside and it can only help. You can always level up more if you put in time to gain exp.
Good: Leveling up has tradeoffs or is a strategic decision. Only a set amount of exp that's the same for all players (roughly), so do with it what you wish.

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Think of it this way. You level up in a JRPG or Diablo or something. You are more powerful, so the game becomes easier. You can kill enemies you couldn't before. This doesn't make the game more complex.

Becoming more powerful doesn't make the game easier — it allows you to continue progressing. As you say, it allows you to kill enemies that you couldn't before, but that is not itself making the game easier. Also, to use your specific example of Diablo III, as the enemies become higher level they do become more complex, as they gain additional affixes, making them not only more dangerous but more complicated to defeat.

The progression treadmill is best summarised by the Red Queen hypothesis; Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place.

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Becoming more powerful doesn't make the game easier — it allows you to continue progressing. As you say, it allows you to kill enemies that you couldn't before, but that is not itself making the game easier.

Um yes it is. If you were too weak to kill an enemy, and you level up and can then kill that enemy, that fight became easier. The proper way to allow progression is to create a proper difficulty curve so that the player has to improve.

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Unless it is literally impossible to win the fight before a definite level. Like it is impossible to hack some things or move some boxes off a vent until you upgrade to a certain level in Deus Ex.

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Becoming more powerful doesn't make the game easier — it allows you to continue progressing. As you say, it allows you to kill enemies that you couldn't before, but that is not itself making the game easier.

Um yes it is. If you were too weak to kill an enemy, and you level up and can then kill that enemy, that fight became easier.

You said the game, not the fight. Somewhat pathetic attempt to save face, tbh.

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Becoming more powerful doesn't make the game easier — it allows you to continue progressing. As you say, it allows you to kill enemies that you couldn't before, but that is not itself making the game easier.

Um yes it is. If you were too weak to kill an enemy, and you level up and can then kill that enemy, that fight became easier.

You said the game, not the fight. Somewhat pathetic attempt to save face, tbh.

Aaaaaaand if the game is about fighting monsters, and leveling up makes it easier to fight monsters, then leveling up makes you game easier.

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Aaaaaaand if the game is about fighting monsters, and leveling up makes it easier to fight monsters, then leveling up makes you game easier.

To borrow one of your favourite expressions: YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT.

You're also clearly not reading or listening to anything I'm saying. Par for the course I suppose.

Did you even play Diablo III? I have this feeling you only read about games rather than play them.

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Did you even play Diablo III? I have this feeling you only read about games rather than play them.

I played Diablo 2 EXTENSIVELY, but that was when I was young and dumb and had no taste. I passed on Diablo 3.

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I played Diablo 2 EXTENSIVELY, but that was when I was young and dumb and had no taste.

[image]

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I want to put her in a box and bring her out at parties, is that wrong?

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I want to put her in a box and bring her out at parties, is that wrong?

Only if you don't put holes in the box and forget to feed her.

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I would do that! I could be really good at keeping JLaw.

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I would do that! I could be really good at keeping JLaw.

Wow, Jude Law really cleaned himself up! He looks great there!

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I want to put her in a box and bring her out at parties, is that wrong?

Only if you don't put holes in the box and forget to feed her.

This conversation would sound terrifying without proper context.

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I want to put her in a box and bring her out at parties, is that wrong?

Only if you don't put holes in the box and forget to feed her.

This conversation would sound terrifying without proper context.

I jumped in at this comment and went backwards, and it was indeed strange.

Though, for some reason I thought I was going to find a weird, metaphorical, Schrodinger's Cat game design debate... I wouldn't put it past DBO.

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Though, for some reason I thought I was going to find a weird, metaphorical, Schrodinger's Cat game design debate... I wouldn't put it past DBO.

So Master Chief and the Halo franchise is in a Dyson Sphere. That Dyson Sphere also happens to be the Traveler. 343 thinks they're in control of their own IP now, but in actuality it's really just running around in Bungie's new creation. But if we can neither see in nor see out of the Traveler, is Halo actually in there? Is 343 and Halo succeeding and thriving, or is it the fact that Bungie's Destiny is generating massive hype and pre-orders? If Destiny fails, does Halo die, or does it still live? Both?

Wait. You said game design.

Uh. Joe Staten is in the Traveler while simultaneously writing how the Traveler and Destiny will play out over the next decade. He writes himself into the real world to give cryptic interviews. He's not the real Joe. But how do we know he's not the real Joe without being able to look inside the Traveler to see if he's actually in there or not? Maybe we, and this very thread, are a product of his writing as he attempts to free himself of the box he has written himself into.

If a Guardian falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does the forest even exist?

What are we talking about again?

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...I'm quite gladly I wasn't drinking anything right now.

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I like the idea the traveler's power comes from Master Chief running around inside of it like a hamster wheel.

2 franchises, one saved human race.

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There's a game in the box. Does Cody like it?

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There's a game in the box. Does Cody like it?

The thought of a version of me out there in quantum flux that likes Journey, Fez, and Limbo is terrifying.

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Just curious, what's your take on those games? What's so terrifying?

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Just curious, what's your take on those games? What's so terrifying?

They are all absolutely terrible games.

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A nuanced take.

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There's a game in the box. Does Cody like it?

The thought of a version of me out there in quantum flux that likes Journey, Fez, and Limbo is terrifying.

On the bright side, there's a version of the universe out there where those are good games?

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The thought of a version of me out there in quantum flux that likes Journey, Fez, and Limbo is terrifying.

On the bright side, there's a version of the universe out there where those are good games?

I just figured it out: Cody lives in a different universe than us!

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[image]

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not sure why I didn't make this joke earlier...
[image]

much more of taking off just the tip with a bread knife and maiming the finger next to it a bit, not nearly as cool as it getting snipped off by a dimensional tear closing, but it grew back mostly...

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Well, if you consider him not liking it equivalent to the cat being dead, even he does like, he doesn't.

Which makes a perfect analogy.

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I want to put her in a box and bring her out at parties, is that wrong?

There's an opportunity here for a certain Justin Timberlake/Lonely Island reference, but I'm far too polite to make such an inappropriate comment.

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Absolutely, that's the point that I'm having so much fun making here. Cody seems to think the player powering up systems in Destiny are the latter. Why? He seems to have trouble with that part. I'm prodding him to actual explain that position, because his defenses of it so far have been very poor.

I don't know for sure, since nobody knows what Destiny really is. That being said:

There is a difference between leveling up / advancing a character to make the game easier vs doing the same to make the game harder or more complex.

Think of it this way. You level up in a JRPG or Diablo or something. You are more powerful, so the game becomes easier. You can kill enemies you couldn't before. This doesn't make the game more complex.

That's valuable in it's own right though... especially in a skill driven game like Destiny. See, Equipment, and leveling can act as a dynamic difficulty scale. Players can try, fail, go back to some easier content to improve themselves and their gear and come back and conquer. It's a much more organic system than difficulty sliders, or settings. Demon's/Dark Souls is a game that does this wonderfully.

Leveling up in Deus Ex on the other hand, DOES make the game more complex, because the designers made this cool world which you could tackle in many different way with many different skill and augmentation combinations, each enabling a very different experience.

The level and encounter design contains that complexity. Leveling up gives you the ability to steam roll the game with the same solutions again and again. Especially once you level up your guns.

Think of it this way:

Bad: You should always level up, since there's no downside and it can only help. You can always level up more if you put in time to gain exp.
Good: Leveling up has tradeoffs or is a strategic decision. Only a set amount of exp that's the same for all players (roughly), so do with it what you wish.

Even in Diablo leveling up is a strategic decision. Since you have a level cap, every choice you make means you can't invest in a bunch of other choices. And even without a level cap, a players limited time acts as kind of a natural cap. There's no functional difference between Diablo's skill trees with a level cap and Dues Ex's augmentations which are limited in a play through.

As said, we don't know the decisions Destiny is using, but this isn't some crazy hard problem to solve.

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The big thing about Deus Ex's leveling system is that, for the most part, the augmentations are incomparables. They don't give you numerical benefits that can be mathed out and organized by "most beneficial." There are builds in Diablo which are, speaking from an objective standpoint, better. Deus Ex (and I'm speaking from the experience of Human Revolution, I didn't have the patience for the original) has a few of those (improved armor, for example), but most of them are simply new abilities: things which allow you to approach a challenge in a different way. It's a non-linear progression; there are trees, but they're very small. It's not "I'll get this so I can get that later," it's "I'll get this, and I think it'll synergize well with my existing abilities." In a lot of RPGs, playing at higher levels doesn't feel that different from playing at lower levels; the numbers are bigger, and you have a wider range of abilities to make numbers happen to other people, but you're still doing the same actions. The augs in Deus Ex give you new avenues to explore; Icarus lets you survive long-distance falls, which gives you new options in combat, exploration, and escape. Hacking opens doors and gives access to data you otherwise would have to find through an alternate pathway. Strength augs let you stealth-kill multiple foes at once, which gives you a whole big pile of options for stealth, combat, and navigation.

I hope Destiny has same of the same philosophy. I'm getting a Mass Effect vibe from the vids we've seen, and ME did a little bit of that, so I'm optimistic.

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The big thing about Deus Ex's leveling system is that, for the most part, the augmentations are incomparables. They don't give you numerical benefits that can be mathed out and organized by "most beneficial." There are builds in Diablo which are, speaking from an objective standpoint, better. Deus Ex (and I'm speaking from the experience of Human Revolution, I didn't have the patience for the original) has a few of those (improved armor, for example), but most of them are simply new abilities: things which allow you to approach a challenge in a different way. It's a non-linear progression; there are trees, but they're very small. It's not "I'll get this so I can get that later," it's "I'll get this, and I think it'll synergize well with my existing abilities." In a lot of RPGs, playing at higher levels doesn't feel that different from playing at lower levels; the numbers are bigger, and you have a wider range of abilities to make numbers happen to other people, but you're still doing the same actions. The augs in Deus Ex give you new avenues to explore; Icarus lets you survive long-distance falls, which gives you new options in combat, exploration, and escape. Hacking opens doors and gives access to data you otherwise would have to find through an alternate pathway. Strength augs let you stealth-kill multiple foes at once, which gives you a whole big pile of options for stealth, combat, and navigation.

Well said. That is of course the failure of most JRPGs MMORPGs or ARPGs, in that really you are doing the same thing throughout the game.

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The big thing about Deus Ex's leveling system is that, for the most part, the augmentations are incomparables. They don't give you numerical benefits that can be mathed out and organized by "most beneficial." There are builds in Diablo which are, speaking from an objective standpoint, better. Deus Ex (and I'm speaking from the experience of Human Revolution, I didn't have the patience for the original) has a few of those (improved armor, for example), but most of them are simply new abilities: things which allow you to approach a challenge in a different way. It's a non-linear progression; there are trees, but they're very small. It's not "I'll get this so I can get that later," it's "I'll get this, and I think it'll synergize well with my existing abilities." In a lot of RPGs, playing at higher levels doesn't feel that different from playing at lower levels; the numbers are bigger, and you have a wider range of abilities to make numbers happen to other people, but you're still doing the same actions. The augs in Deus Ex give you new avenues to explore; Icarus lets you survive long-distance falls, which gives you new options in combat, exploration, and escape. Hacking opens doors and gives access to data you otherwise would have to find through an alternate pathway. Strength augs let you stealth-kill multiple foes at once, which gives you a whole big pile of options for stealth, combat, and navigation.

I hope Destiny has same of the same philosophy. I'm getting a Mass Effect vibe from the vids we've seen, and ME did a little bit of that, so I'm optimistic.

Yea, but those are really differences of magnitude rather than of kind. Dues Ex focuses on fewer upgrades with more concrete changes and fewer statistical effects, while Diablo games have more upgrades that have minor statistical changes but a few with large concrete effects.

If you build your synergies right, the line between the two gets even more blurred. Take a look at something like Path Of Exile wherecrazy ass builds are possible, mostly due to a series of small statistical tweaks that build up.

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I'm not certain I understand your point. That's a Diablo-like where advantages gained from leveling are numerical; none of the builds change how you play the game, they just coalesce to give you really big numbers. The game is still "right-click until the enemy is dead." Sometimes that right-clicking is at a distance and sometimes it's up close, but that's as deep as it gets.

The style of leveling in Deus Ex, and that I'd like to see proliferated, is more akin to a toolkit: instead of improving statistical benefits, you're gaining access to more methods of play. There are jobs you can do with a clawhammer that are more effectively carried out by a mallet; you can complete challenges with any build, but some will be more conducive to one situation or another. The encounter design is critical: in Deus Ex, the player has the ability to decide how to take on a mission, so that (excluding boss battles) a character who is specialized for stealth and conversation will be able to complete any encounter because they've been designed so that they can be approached from multiple perspectives. Compare that to WoW, in which if you're playing a support class, you will never be able to defeat certain enemies by your lonesome because the numbers you generate simply aren't big enough.

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If you build your synergies right, the line between the two gets even more blurred. Take a look at something like Path Of Exile wherecrazy ass builds are possible, mostly due to a series of small statistical tweaks that build up.

There is another fundamental problem with this approach, in that it leads to an objective ‘best’ set of choices which players should take if they want to be competitive / do the most damage. This problem is exacerbated if you have a lot of talents, since the overall outcome isn't necessarily that clear to the player when they make the decision (in software design this is called analysis or choice paralysis).

This is a problem WoW's talent system suffered from up until the most recent expansion; the outcome was that a large number of players (basically everyone who wanted to be competitive in PvP or raiding) would refer to third-party sites where the optimal build of talents had been tried and tested. This actually leads to even less choice, since you're effectively choosing between optimal and suboptimal builds, and niche/‘fun’ builds end up left by the wayside.

The solution WoW and Diablo III went with was to give players a choice between a set of mutually-exclusive options at various points, with the choices made interesting and less damage/healing-focused. Games like Path of Exile and Torchlight still use the old-fashioned talent tree system, and whilst that will obviously appeal to some players, ultimately they're sub-optimal gaming systems which don't lead to fun gameplay.

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That's valuable in it's own right though... especially in a skill driven game like Destiny. See, Equipment, and leveling can act as a dynamic difficulty scale. Players can try, fail, go back to some easier content to improve themselves and their gear and come back and conquer. It's a much more organic system than difficulty sliders, or settings. Demon's/Dark Souls is a game that does this wonderfully.

Nonono! Relying on leveling to set the difficulty level is a failure of the designer to design a proper difficulty curve. It's cheating.

Even in Diablo leveling up is a strategic decision. Since you have a level cap, every choice you make means you can't invest in a bunch of other choices. And even without a level cap, a players limited time acts as kind of a natural cap. There's no functional difference between Diablo's skill trees with a level cap and Dues Ex's augmentations which are limited in a play through.

No, it's ALWAYS BETTER TO BE A HIGHER LEVEL. Now, where you spend your skill and stat points, THAT is the strategic decision. And guess what they removed in Diablo 3? Yup.

The difference is that Deus Ex awards exp as you naturally progress through the game. You can't 'grind' for it by replaying segments over and over.

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Is it cheating to have a tough enemy rendered more easily defeated by granting the player access to a more powerful weapon? The Cyberdemon is a much different animal if you're wielding a BFG 9000 than if all you have is the rocket launcher. Leveling is similar: in the same way that special items like the BFG tend to be hidden off the beaten path, there are often non-required areas in RPGs where you can gain experience at a more brisk rate than if you just played straight through, leaving you at a higher level for certain encounters. It's a way of rewarding exploration just like equipment and story bits.

That said, I prefer something more tangible, like a health kit or a diary, but I think level-based difficulty can be handled well. Any enemy can be defeated, but they are made easier when you take your time.

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Is it cheating to have a tough enemy rendered more easily defeated by granting the player access to a more powerful weapon? The Cyberdemon is a much different animal if you're wielding a BFG 9000 than if all you have is the rocket launcher. Leveling is similar: in the same way that special items like the BFG tend to be hidden off the beaten path, there are often non-required areas in RPGs where you can gain experience at a more brisk rate than if you just played straight through, leaving you at a higher level for certain encounters. It's a way of rewarding exploration just like equipment and story bits.

That said, I prefer something more tangible, like a health kit or a diary, but I think level-based difficulty can be handled well. Any enemy can be defeated, but they are made easier when you take your time.

Yeah I think this all comes down to content personally. Early RPG's mostly used stats (and often only stats) to show you getting more powerful, with occasional new skills that were really just more powerful than the old ones. This often because of the limitations of development at the time. The RPG's and games that having leveling toda that I enjoy most are games that give you new skills that give you new ways to play, or even a new weapon can be interesting if it is more than just "this weapon does 5 more damage than your previous one!" So it all comes down to giving the player choices rather than just "here is your path, grind enough and you can continue down the one path we've given you."

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Is it cheating to have a tough enemy rendered more easily defeated by granting the player access to a more powerful weapon?

No, because you can't go back and keep grabbing rocket launchers, each getting more powerful than the last. You get one and have to deal with it.

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That's valuable in it's own right though... especially in a skill driven game like Destiny. See, Equipment, and leveling can act as a dynamic difficulty scale. Players can try, fail, go back to some easier content to improve themselves and their gear and come back and conquer. It's a much more organic system than difficulty sliders, or settings. Demon's/Dark Souls is a game that does this wonderfully.

Nonono! Relying on leveling to set the difficulty level is a failure of the designer to design a proper difficulty curve. It's cheating.

Horse shit. So the difficulty curve for my wife who can barely work 2 sticks should be the same for me who has been playing FPS' since I was 10?

Okay, so we create some difficulty levels, everyone happy? No, not quite, Halo on easy flat out isn't as interesting a game as Halo on Legendary or Heroic. Ideally, everyone plays the same thing, and you have tools to get them there. Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills. Dark/Demon souls did this about as well as anyone. The souls games are hard as shit, and the curve is brutal. On the other hand, you can go do optional areas, or fight in the same areas to beef up your character. The game gives you a reward for getting better, so you are never banging your head against a seemingly unbeatable boss (Interestingly, and directly applicable to Destiny, it also gives you a social way to control difficulty by summoning help for bosses)

Also, it's cheating? What a silly thing to say. Scuse me, while I go put in my cheat code for satisfying game design. Man, you better not let those get on Gamefaqs, otherwise everyone's just going to cheat their way to million sellers.

Even in Diablo leveling up is a strategic decision. Since you have a level cap, every choice you make means you can't invest in a bunch of other choices. And even without a level cap, a players limited time acts as kind of a natural cap. There's no functional difference between Diablo's skill trees with a level cap and Dues Ex's augmentations which are limited in a play through.

No, it's ALWAYS BETTER TO BE A HIGHER LEVEL. Now, where you spend your skill and stat points, THAT is the strategic decision. And guess what they removed in Diablo 3? Yup.

The difference is that Deus Ex awards exp as you naturally progress through the game. You can't 'grind' for it by replaying segments over and over.

It's always better to be a higher level in Dues Ex also. But the decisions you make as you go along that tree, and the options you give up give the systems meaning, challenge and complexity. Same thing in Diablo (up to 2)

not going to defend Diablo 3 here, I've never played it because everything I heard about it turned me off, especially the lack of choice in building characters.

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That's valuable in it's own right though... especially in a skill driven game like Destiny. See, Equipment, and leveling can act as a dynamic difficulty scale. Players can try, fail, go back to some easier content to improve themselves and their gear and come back and conquer. It's a much more organic system than difficulty sliders, or settings. Demon's/Dark Souls is a game that does this wonderfully.

Nonono! Relying on leveling to set the difficulty level is a failure of the designer to design a proper difficulty curve. It's cheating.

Horse shit. So the difficulty curve for my wife who can barely work 2 sticks should be the same for me who has been playing FPS' since I was 10?

No. That's why she plays on EASY and you play on HEROIC. Holy cow dude, think for 2 seconds.

Okay, so we create some difficulty levels, everyone happy? No, not quite, Halo on easy flat out isn't as interesting a game as Halo on Legendary or Heroic. Ideally, everyone plays the same thing, and you have tools to get them there. Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills.

You are correct in that you can make your easy difficulty so easy it ruins the game. I mean, imagine a cover based shooter where easy mode was so easy you never needed to use cover. You broke your game. You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player.

Also, you've validated a point I've long made that has been met with such resistance from the folks on HBO and here: That a skilled player can have more fun because he is able to play the most interesting version of the game.

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No. That's why she plays on EASY and you play on HEROIC. Holy cow dude, think for 2 seconds.

It's like you barely even read my arguments before just reposting the same knee jerk stuff ;)

Okay, so we create some difficulty levels, everyone happy? No, not quite, Halo on easy flat out isn't as interesting a game as Halo on Legendary or Heroic. Ideally, everyone plays the same thing, and you have tools to get them there. Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills.

You are correct in that you can make your easy difficulty so easy it ruins the game. I mean, imagine a cover based shooter where easy mode was so easy you never needed to use cover. You broke your game. You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player.

The ability to add more challenge organically is always going to be more interesting in terms of game design than having hard difficulty settings.

Also, I never once said this, "You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player."

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No. That's why she plays on EASY and you play on HEROIC. Holy cow dude, think for 2 seconds.

It's like you barely even read my arguments before just reposting the same knee jerk stuff ;)

Okay, so we create some difficulty levels, everyone happy? No, not quite, Halo on easy flat out isn't as interesting a game as Halo on Legendary or Heroic. Ideally, everyone plays the same thing, and you have tools to get them there. Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills.

You are correct in that you can make your easy difficulty so easy it ruins the game. I mean, imagine a cover based shooter where easy mode was so easy you never needed to use cover. You broke your game. You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player.

The ability to add more challenge organically is always going to be more interesting in terms of game design than having hard difficulty settings.

Also, I never once said this, "You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player."

Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills

Your words. Unless you meant to say grow their avatar's skills?

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No. That's why she plays on EASY and you play on HEROIC. Holy cow dude, think for 2 seconds.

It's like you barely even read my arguments before just reposting the same knee jerk stuff ;)

Okay, so we create some difficulty levels, everyone happy? No, not quite, Halo on easy flat out isn't as interesting a game as Halo on Legendary or Heroic. Ideally, everyone plays the same thing, and you have tools to get them there. Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills.

You are correct in that you can make your easy difficulty so easy it ruins the game. I mean, imagine a cover based shooter where easy mode was so easy you never needed to use cover. You broke your game. You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player.

The ability to add more challenge organically is always going to be more interesting in terms of game design than having hard difficulty settings.

Also, I never once said this, "You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player."

Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills

Your words. Unless you meant to say grow their avatar's skills?

Edit for clarity.

No, I mean the player gets better by playing, Having loot/gear is a carrot to move them from an unsatisfying activity (getting their ass handed to them by a boss) to a satisfying one (Completing an optional mission for some reward). Gaining levels and loot is a reward, people like getting rewards, so they play a different area to get them. In this way the game can encourage a player to step back from the boss, go do something they'll succeed at. While succeeding at something else, they improve, while simultaneously improving their avatar (effectively making things easier).

Here's an example, there's this boss, you need to be a really good player to get past it. You could play and play and keep trying, and butt your head against a wall to get better. Eventually you beat him, and while it feels great you had to go through a ton of misery to get there.

Having loot, and the ability to gain levels, and power up your character via side missions, or repeating content (within limits mind you, no one likes a crazy grind). This has two functions. All that time you've been playing other content, you've been getting better because you have been playing the game. You've now also made that boss easier by having better equipment. In this way, instead of banging your head against a boss, again, and again, and again the game has pointed you to something fun (New Missions, new gear!) and you've beaten the boss. This kind of learning curve is much more satisfying than hitting the "Restart" button 50 times.

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Here's an example, there's this boss, you need to be a really good player to get past it. You could play and play and keep trying, and butt your head against a wall to get better. Eventually you beat him, and while it feels great you had to go through a ton of misery to get there.

Again, failure to properly balance difficulty. Designing a proper difficulty curve fixes this without the need for leveling. The only bosses that should require you to be a good player to beat are the ones on hard mode, or far enough along in the game that the player has become good by that point.

I'm assuming that the rest of the bosses and challenge has been skill appropriate up to that point.

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Here's an example, there's this boss, you need to be a really good player to get past it. You could play and play and keep trying, and butt your head against a wall to get better. Eventually you beat him, and while it feels great you had to go through a ton of misery to get there.

Again, failure to properly balance difficulty. Designing a proper difficulty curve fixes this without the need for leveling. The only bosses that should require you to be a good player to beat are the ones on hard mode, or far enough along in the game that the player has become good by that point.

I'm assuming that the rest of the bosses and challenge has been skill appropriate up to that point.

That assumes a couple things.

1. It assumes linearity. Which is great for a baggy pipe design like Dues Ex or Halo, but less appropriate for something more open like destiny, as it would effectively make the game more linear (Kind of like old MUDs, where you even though you could go anywhere, you always had a fairly linear path you had to follow in terms of difficulty), or flatten the challenge in unpleasant ways.
2. It ignores variances within the skill set of similarly experienced players (IE, player A is good enough to get through, but player B lacks some certain skill for the boss in particular)
3. Difficulty spikes can be a tool for good design. They give a player something to see, fail at, and come back to later to measure their progress. Something like Havel or the black knights in the undead burg in dark souls.

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No. That's why she plays on EASY and you play on HEROIC. Holy cow dude, think for 2 seconds.

It's like you barely even read my arguments before just reposting the same knee jerk stuff ;)

Okay, so we create some difficulty levels, everyone happy? No, not quite, Halo on easy flat out isn't as interesting a game as Halo on Legendary or Heroic. Ideally, everyone plays the same thing, and you have tools to get them there. Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills.

You are correct in that you can make your easy difficulty so easy it ruins the game. I mean, imagine a cover based shooter where easy mode was so easy you never needed to use cover. You broke your game. You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player.

The ability to add more challenge organically is always going to be more interesting in terms of game design than having hard difficulty settings.

Also, I never once said this, "You are incorrect in thinking leveling up improves PLAYER skill. It boosts the stats of your avatar, but does nothing for the player."

Hence, a smart leveling system that allows you to keep players engaged as they grow their skills

Your words. Unless you meant to say grow their avatar's skills?

Edit for clarity.

No, I mean the player gets better by playing, Having loot/gear is a carrot to move them from an unsatisfying activity (getting their ass handed to them by a boss) to a satisfying one (Completing an optional mission for some reward). Gaining levels and loot is a reward, people like getting rewards, so they play a different area to get them. In this way the game can encourage a player to step back from the boss, go do something they'll succeed at. While succeeding at something else, they improve, while simultaneously improving their avatar (effectively making things easier).

Here's an example, there's this boss, you need to be a really good player to get past it. You could play and play and keep trying, and butt your head against a wall to get better. Eventually you beat him, and while it feels great you had to go through a ton of misery to get there.

Having loot, and the ability to gain levels, and power up your character via side missions, or repeating content (within limits mind you, no one likes a crazy grind). This has two functions. All that time you've been playing other content, you've been getting better because you have been playing the game. You've now also made that boss easier by having better equipment. In this way, instead of banging your head against a boss, again, and again, and again the game has pointed you to something fun (New Missions, new gear!) and you've beaten the boss. This kind of learning curve is much more satisfying than hitting the "Restart" button 50 times.

I think the problem here is you setup the alternative as having a boss that is so hard that you can only try try try again to beat it and that there's nothing else to do in the game aside from that.

I'm under the impression that Cody is suggesting that, fine, have a tough boss, but make sure that leading up that boss you've designed a difficulty curve that effectively coaches the player to overcome that boss because the player has inherently become a better player.

That is also separate to the fact that Cody is also saying he likes leveling that effectively makes a player make a trade off: if I focus on hacking, which WHO WOULDN'T in Deux Ex, then I won't be able to engage in firefights as easily, shaping my approach to levels.

I personally do not enjoy levelling, frankly it frustrates me when I feel a game is moving on without me changing all that much. I DO enjoy a game that I can tailor (i.e. a battle is raging on the other side of this cliff, before you jump into the fray do you take a sniper rifle or a shotgun). But levelling will never be something that keeps me from playing a game, and I know I'm repeating myself here, if it convinces more people to play and I have a larger pool to draw my fireteam from, I'll swallow my medicine, assign points to my skill tree, and get right on with it.

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I'm under the impression that Cody is suggesting that, fine, have a tough boss, but make sure that leading up that boss you've designed a difficulty curve that effectively coaches the player to overcome that boss because the player has inherently become a better player.

This the holy grail of game design and every developer is probably trying their damndest to achieve that. On top of that they're trying to provide us new worlds to explore, new ways to explore them together, new mechanics, new UIs, and make sure it all doesn't crash down on us at the same time.

Oh and this is still a commercial endeavor so at the same time they're trying to move some units. So I'm pretty understanding when it comes to these things.

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Finally decided to read through another patented Cody megathread.

I don't know for sure, since nobody knows what Destiny really is. That being said:

There is a difference between leveling up / advancing a character to make the game easier vs doing the same to make the game harder or more complex.

Think of it this way. You level up in a JRPG or Diablo or something. You are more powerful, so the game becomes easier. You can kill enemies you couldn't before. This doesn't make the game more complex.

Leveling up in Deus Ex on the other hand, DOES make the game more complex, because the designers made this cool world which you could tackle in many different way with many different skill and augmentation combinations, each enabling a very different experience.

Think of it this way:

Bad: You should always level up, since there's no downside and it can only help. You can always level up more if you put in time to gain exp.
Good: Leveling up has tradeoffs or is a strategic decision. Only a set amount of exp that's the same for all players (roughly), so do with it what you wish.

I hear what you're saying. You definitely don't want to rob areas and enemies of dignity if you can one shot them when it used to take much more to kill them, or there being no reason to return to Old Russia if it's filled with lvl 5's.

So you can scale enemies, and that works for a while before getting too ridiculous.

And you don't want to just keep exponentially increasing the player's scale of power (i.e. Borderlands 2) to the point where, compared to you as a lvl 2, you are now godlike and smite lvl 2's enmass by blinking.

This seems to come to a head with the idea of the trifecta and the wolfpack. So right now there are three distinct classes and a focus on the team aspect. I believe they will leverage the idea of the fireteam to balance battles and omnipotent leveling.

Example: Let's say you're a Badass mecha Titan lvl 50 with supergunnygun. You have picked many physics altering power upgrades so that up close you are a force of nature, but when you use said power, your shields drain and leaves you open for long ranged attack. Now let's also say that these limitations in each class defies normal hit points and leaves your superweakpoint exposed. Unless the Hunter next to you drops a shield or gets the attention off you, you're toast. All the while, this bad mofo is heading your way and you're still in recharge... until Mr.Warlock amps you up with instant recharge and ubercharge (why not?) so you can take on the sob.

If powers and upgrades are regulated to the team aspect, this could greatly alleviate some of the issues you were having with simple steroid leveling leading to easier encounters, but at some level this will never be fixed. At some point, the right combo of powers will be spec'd to make the optimized ease of fighting, and hopefully it won't get to a level where people steamroll the game and it's levels. But even if they do, I can choose to ally myself with a fireteam that works in synchronicity.

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If powers and upgrades are regulated to the team aspect, this could greatly alleviate some of the issues you were having with simple steroid leveling leading to easier encounters, but at some level this will never be fixed.

I really like this idea. If the trade-offs can only be alleviated by playing with friends I think that is a fantastic way to make the game fun. Now the hard part would be balancing the trade-offs well enough so that when a player is lone wolfing they can still manage.

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Nope, I understand his argument. My point is that the gear and loot acts as the carrot to get people to that hidden content. Story bits, and world building isn't enough for all the players to go hunting through this world (and I'd guess that it's not even a significant minority).

Wrong. You don't hack into computers and find passwords or story details so you can level up your hacking, you level up your hacking so you can hack into computers and find story details and passwords! You don't pick a bazillion locks to level up your lock picking, you level up your lock picking so you can go where you shouldn't. The fact that you have to increase your skills at all is because it makes you choose HOW YOU WANT TO PLAY THE GAME. There's only a finite amount of exp, given to you as you progress.

Nobody prides himself on maxing out the lock picking skill, in part because that's trivial if you play the game and choose to spend your exp there, but more importantly nobody cares because THAT'S NOT THE PART THAT MATTERS.

Player Investment systems are the opposite.

Cody has maintained that no good can come from player investment systems, but he's presenting a really compelling argument for why they can be used (IE, modifying character player to draw them deeper into the story)

That is what ROLE PLAYING games do, something Deus Ex is, but Destiny isn't. We don't know what Destiny is, but it's sure not an RPG (in the true, correct sense of the term). Like real Role Playing games, the stats are purely incidental, only coming into play for things not suited to computer simulation, or would otherwise be to burdensome (imagine having to actually learn to pick physical locks or actually run real hacks to get into computers). Stats are simply a more convenient way for the game to do this.

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Like real Role Playing games, the stats are purely incidental, only coming into play for things not suited to computer simulation, or would otherwise be to burdensome (imagine having to actually learn to pick physical locks or actually run real hacks to get into computers). Stats are simply a more convenient way for the game to do this.

Enter the Matrix had a hacking mini-game on the main menu that was actually pretty damn fun. I can also guarantee picking (regular) locks would make a great mini-game as well.

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Nope, I understand his argument. My point is that the gear and loot acts as the carrot to get people to that hidden content. Story bits, and world building isn't enough for all the players to go hunting through this world (and I'd guess that it's not even a significant minority).

Wrong. You don't hack into computers and find passwords or story details so you can level up your hacking, you level up your hacking so you can hack into computers and find story details and passwords! You don't pick a bazillion locks to level up your lock picking, you level up your lock picking so you can go where you shouldn't. The fact that you have to increase your skills at all is because it makes you choose HOW YOU WANT TO PLAY THE GAME. There's only a finite amount of exp, given to you as you progress.

Nobody prides himself on maxing out the lock picking skill, in part because that's trivial if you play the game and choose to spend your exp there, but more importantly nobody cares because THAT'S NOT THE PART THAT MATTERS.

Player Investment systems are the opposite.

That's a fun tangent but not important... Lock picking/hacking are skills designed to allow players to acquire more more resources (Money, ammo, augmentations) or save other resources (health, ammo). Whether or not players level them for their own sake is irrelevant; they exist within a larger context where they allow a player to grab loot and upgrades.

You stated that players will do these actions to gain more details, I simply pointed out that many players don't care about this, and use these skills, and the act of searching for new gear helps guide players to new content, and draw them into the story. That's one of the *many* advantages of using RPG systems in a wide variety of games.

Cody has maintained that no good can come from player investment systems, but he's presenting a really compelling argument for why they can be used (IE, modifying character player to draw them deeper into the story)

That is what ROLE PLAYING games do, something Deus Ex is, but Destiny isn't. We don't know what Destiny is, but it's sure not an RPG (in the true, correct sense of the term). Like real Role Playing games, the stats are purely incidental, only coming into play for things not suited to computer simulation, or would otherwise be to burdensome (imagine having to actually learn to pick physical locks or actually run real hacks to get into computers). Stats are simply a more convenient way for the game to do this.

I'd quibble with the idea that DX is more or less of an RPG than Destiny; one's about making your own stories, and the others about living in their's. But that's neither here nor there. Theirs no magic that says these mechanics can't improve other genres. They can, and they do!

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So I really wondered why Deus Ex wasn't something Bungie would look up to, since it would seem to so perfectly fit with Bungie's desire to create a cool world that players would want to explore, tell a story, and still have a compelling game. Why is destiny focused on exp, loot, raid bosses, instead of shooting and exploring (with no reward other than information and story progression)? If everybody is supposed to be a hero, wouldn't the dizzying combinations of skills and augs Deus Ex has be a great way to make each character unique and desirable in groups?

In fact I wonder why NOBODY has really tried to make another game like Deus Ex, Bungie especially. It was built on ancient technology. The graphics were lacking. The AI was bad. I'm just surprised since with the talent and resources at Bungie, these issues wouldn't be issues.

Because as production values and production costs rise, it becomes too expensive to spend time and resources making content you're not sure people will see. This is something many developers have been saying, publicly, since before the move to HD, and why design parameters are being driven to raise completion rates and focus on multiplayer, to make titles stickier, to tie game features into network services to discourage piracy and/or sales into the used market.

That said, I do agree with just about everything you said about Deus Ex. I liked it a lot, and for many of the reasons you cite. However, I don't think it's that hard to see how all the financial incentives in the industry work against making games like that.

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Because as production values and production costs rise, it becomes too expensive to spend time and resources making content you're not sure people will see. This is something many developers have been saying, publicly, since before the move to HD, and why design parameters are being driven to raise completion rates and focus on multiplayer, to make titles stickier, to tie game features into network services to discourage piracy and/or sales into the used market.

Why can't all posts in reply to Cody's endless, depressing griping be like this?

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Because as production values and production costs rise, it becomes too expensive to spend time and resources making content you're not sure people will see. This is something many developers have been saying, publicly, since before the move to HD, and why design parameters are being driven to raise completion rates and focus on multiplayer, to make titles stickier, to tie game features into network services to discourage piracy and/or sales into the used market.

Why is this an issue? Would you seriously consider not buying a game if you didn't see everything the first time through? If you've bought a game, they already have your money. So what if there's tons of content people may miss? Do you think any player is going to be upset, or do you think they'd be thrilled that the game has so much hidden away? The idea that hidden content would negate sales is ludicrous. Hell, one of the criticisms of the newer FInal Fantasy games is that THERE IS TOO LITTLE hidden stuff.

You know how to make your game world feel even bigger? HIDE SHIT IN IT! Mario 3 and Deus Ex feel bigger than they are, because there's so much mystery about them, even to hardcore players.

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Why is this an issue? Would you seriously consider not buying a game if you didn't see everything the first time through? If you've bought a game, they already have your money. So what if there's tons of content people may miss? Do you think any player is going to be upset, or do you think they'd be thrilled that the game has so much hidden away?

Because of development costs like he said. Adding extra content costs money. He wasn't saying anyone was complaining about extra content or it would hurt sales he was saying developers have streamlined the development process to mainly develop content that all players will see because it costs less money to develop less content. Games that lack a large amount of content sell well, so why would they add more content for a small percentage of gamers that care? I'm definitely not saying I like this, but obviously the majority of gamers are voting with their money for what they want, mostly the same content slightly rearranged with a tiny amount of new content. *cough*CoD*cough*

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Destiny as an MMO?

+1

I'm super curious

I'm super curious

I'm super curious

Ragashingo is now Mayor of The Reef