THAB 08/31/17 - DBO Forums

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/46226

There's a lot of stuff in this one (unlike most THABs).

Here are a few of the dates you should mark in your calendar:

Nightfall: Ready when you are
Raid: 10 AM PT, September 13
Trials: 10 AM PT, September 15

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Before: Collect a ton of engrams, decrypt first engram, equip new item so your new power level is used to determine the level of the next decrypted item, decrypt next engram...

Now: Pick up engram, stop what you're doing and go back to the Cryptarch so your new item will be used to determine the power level of your next engram, return to activity, pick up an engram, stop what you're doing and go back to the Cryptarch...

One step forward, two steps back.

-Disciple

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Before: Collect a ton of engrams, decrypt first engram, equip new item so your new power level is used to determine the level of the next decrypted item, decrypt next engram...

Now: Pick up engram, stop what you're doing and go back to the Cryptarch so your new item will be used to determine the power level of your next engram, return to activity, pick up an engram, stop what you're doing and go back to the Cryptarch...

One step forward, two steps back.

-Disciple

I would have said they'd be stupid to do that… but I read it and that's exactly what they did…

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I had to read it a few times to make sure. There is no way they actually thought this was better, right?

-Disciple

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I'm just hoping we can decrypt while still fielded, as opposed to only in the social space...

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I had to read it a few times to make sure. There is no way they actually thought this was better, right?

-Disciple

Can anyone think of a reason why engram power is not decided on decoding? What problem are they solving by having it set at creation?

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I had to read it a few times to make sure. There is no way they actually thought this was better, right?

-Disciple

Can anyone think of a reason why engram power is not decided on decoding? What problem are they solving by having it set at creation?

Maybe if other aspects of the engram are determined by the enemy, area, or activity (what the item is), then it makes sense to roll those values at the time it drops. If that is the case, it is probably simpler to roll all values, including power, at that time instead of splitting them up.

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I had to read it a few times to make sure. There is no way they actually thought this was better, right?

-Disciple

Can anyone think of a reason why engram power is not decided on decoding? What problem are they solving by having it set at creation?

Maybe if other aspects of the engram are determined by the enemy, area, or activity (what the item is), then it makes sense to roll those values at the time it drops. If that is the case, it is probably simpler to roll all values, including power, at that time instead of splitting them up.

That doesn't seem to be happening:

While Engrams do set their power at the time they drop, they don't roll what they contain until the moment you decrypt them.

There has to be a reason power level too isn't determined on roll.

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I had to read it a few times to make sure. There is no way they actually thought this was better, right?

-Disciple

Can anyone think of a reason why engram power is not decided on decoding? What problem are they solving by having it set at creation?

Maybe if other aspects of the engram are determined by the enemy, area, or activity (what the item is), then it makes sense to roll those values at the time it drops. If that is the case, it is probably simpler to roll all values, including power, at that time instead of splitting them up.

That doesn't seem to be happening:

While Engrams do set their power at the time they drop, they don't roll what they contain until the moment you decrypt them.

Well I can't be expected to read what I comment on, right? This is the Internet after all..

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I had to read it a few times to make sure. There is no way they actually thought this was better, right?

-Disciple

Can anyone think of a reason why engram power is not decided on decoding? What problem are they solving by having it set at creation?

Maybe if other aspects of the engram are determined by the enemy, area, or activity (what the item is), then it makes sense to roll those values at the time it drops. If that is the case, it is probably simpler to roll all values, including power, at that time instead of splitting them up.

That doesn't seem to be happening:

While Engrams do set their power at the time they drop, they don't roll what they contain until the moment you decrypt them.

Well I can't be expected to read what I comment on, right? This is the Internet after all..

Does that mean you aren't really a duck?

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I had to read it a few times to make sure. There is no way they actually thought this was better, right?

-Disciple

Can anyone think of a reason why engram power is not decided on decoding? What problem are they solving by having it set at creation?

Maybe if other aspects of the engram are determined by the enemy, area, or activity (what the item is), then it makes sense to roll those values at the time it drops. If that is the case, it is probably simpler to roll all values, including power, at that time instead of splitting them up.

That doesn't seem to be happening:

While Engrams do set their power at the time they drop, they don't roll what they contain until the moment you decrypt them.

Well I can't be expected to read what I comment on, right? This is the Internet after all..

Does that mean you aren't really a duck?

Last time, you asked me, if I was really a duck. Having considerable time to ponder your query, my answer has not changed.

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Meh. Obsessing over advancing your light like that seems unfun. Don’t do unfun things and take comfort that the remaining things are a little be better than they were in Destiny 1. :)

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Meh. Obsessing over advancing your light like that seems unfun. Don’t do unfun things and take comfort that the remaining things are a little be better than they were in Destiny 1. :)

Ugh. I agree with you.

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Meh. Obsessing over advancing your light like that seems unfun. Don’t do unfun things and take comfort that the remaining things are a little be better than they were in Destiny 1. :)

Too bad you kind of have to to be raid ready in a week so you don't get spoiled.

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The one thing I know that I will not do is rush myself into grinding just so I can play the raid blind one out of dozens of times. You want to put yourself through that pain and misery? By all means knock yourself out, but rushing like that isn’t for everyone. And in my opinion, given all the complaining about grinding from you and others, it shouldn’t be for anyone.

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Meh. Obsessing over advancing your light like that seems unfun. Don’t do unfun things and take comfort that the remaining things are a little be better than they were in Destiny 1. :)

Too bad you kind of have to to be raid ready in a week so you don't get spoiled.

Solution to that is raids come out later, not allowing progression to max light to take place within a week. Sheesh.

Or, you know, don't read spoilers.

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Meh. Obsessing over advancing your light like that seems unfun. Don’t do unfun things and take comfort that the remaining things are a little be better than they were in Destiny 1. :)

Too bad you kind of have to to be raid ready in a week so you don't get spoiled.

Solution to that is raids come out later, not allowing progression to max light to take place within a week. Sheesh.

Or, you know, don't read spoilers.

No. The solution is no light levels in the game at all.

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Meh. Obsessing over advancing your light like that seems unfun. Don’t do unfun things and take comfort that the remaining things are a little be better than they were in Destiny 1. :)

Too bad you kind of have to to be raid ready in a week so you don't get spoiled.

Solution to that is raids come out later, not allowing progression to max light to take place within a week. Sheesh.

Or, you know, don't read spoilers.

No. The solution is no light levels in the game at all.

That's EXACTLY what I described in a different post:

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?mode=entry&id=136897

That is so ridiculously reductive it could apply to ANY game with almost any progression system whatsoever OTHER than one that uses a linear progression with no repetition, no randomization.

In other words, Halo-style progression. You can imagine every player doing the Halo single-player campaign as entering the game with a level 1 and earning 1 level at the completion of each level, ending the game with a level equal to the number of levels played.

The reasons why this is not the case are obvious-- no progression, no long-term engagement outside of competitive multiplayer. Bungie knew how to make that game. If they wanted to do that, they would.

Long term engagement with finite content means repetition. Repetition with finite content and progression means introducing a random element so that progression is not keyed lockstep to content completion. (Progression here can me not just light level, but the continued accumulation of sets of armor and weapons that permit for varying gameplay styles).

I don't think Bungie's raid launch date is chosen with regard to light levels. Therefore, removing light levels would allow more players to enter the raid even sooner, and make spoilers proliferate. No mater how low the bar is to get into the raid, there are always going to be some players who can't put in that number of hours in a single week. I think the 1 week term is catering to squeaky wheel streamers who will cry content drought if they don't have new things.

If it's not that then I don't know what. I certainly hope Bungie thinks they're launching a game with more than a week's worth of first-run content in it.

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Long term engagement with finite content means repetition. Repetition with finite content and progression means introducing a random element so that progression is not keyed lockstep to content completion. (Progression here can me not just light level, but the continued accumulation of sets of armor and weapons that permit for varying gameplay styles).

Yes! You finally see why designing for long term engagement is a bad goal for any video game. Although, as Halo has proven, there are ways to foster self generated long term engagement: by making your game really awesome and dynamic. Oh, maybe I'll try AotCR without the tank this time! Etc.

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Long term engagement with finite content means repetition. Repetition with finite content and progression means introducing a random element so that progression is not keyed lockstep to content completion. (Progression here can me not just light level, but the continued accumulation of sets of armor and weapons that permit for varying gameplay styles).

Yes! You finally see why designing for long term engagement is a bad goal for any video game. Although, as Halo has proven, there are ways to foster self generated long term engagement: by making your game really awesome and dynamic. Oh, maybe I'll try AotCR without the tank this time! Etc.

No, I don't. I'm just demonstrating that I understand your argument even though I think it's nonsense.

The kind of long-term engagement in Destiny as opposed to Halo is absolutely not the same, and I'm pretty sure Bungie could back that up with hard numbers even if I can't.

In my own personal experience, these are not the same things at all. Even if I also thought Destiny could use more content and less repetition, there is no way Halo was as engaging on the same level. At this point I've put more hours into Destiny than I ever did into Halo even despite its obvious shortcomings, partially because of the long-term engagement and partly because cooperative play over a WAN actually works in Destiny whereas in Halo it's a nightmarish slideshow.

On no level would I acknowledge that "designing for long term engagement is a bad goal" either from a gameplay or a commercial perspective.

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Solution to that is raids come out later, not allowing progression to max light to take place within a week. Sheesh.

Okay, but we know that's not happening. That's up to Bungie, not me.

Or, you know, don't read spoilers.

You act like that's easy or even possible. We had potentially pretty big spoilers posted in this very forum with no tags like a day ago. Telling people to just avoid spoilers is never a good argument. If they were avoidable, they wouldn't be called spoilers.

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Solution to that is raids come out later, not allowing progression to max light to take place within a week. Sheesh.

Okay, but we know that's not happening. That's up to Bungie, not me.

Or, you know, don't read spoilers.

You act like that's easy or even possible. We had potentially pretty big spoilers posted in this very forum with no tags like a day ago. Telling people to just avoid spoilers is never a good argument. If they were avoidable, they wouldn't be called spoilers.

Plenty of people in the past have avoided spoilers in the forum by avoiding the forum itself.

It is always possible to avoid spoilers. It is not always convenient to do so, nor is it possible to do so without seriously modifying one's own behavior in ways that not everyone likes or are willing to accept.

However, it's a heck of a lot easier to modify your own habits, which you're in control of, then to get everyone to stop posting spoilers, or to get Bungie to figure out the magical launch date that makes sure no one who wants a blind raid run is spoiled, but at the same time, the bleeding edge streamers don't scream that the game is dying from lack of content because the raid hasn't dropped yet.

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Meh. Obsessing over advancing your light like that seems unfun. Don’t do unfun things and take comfort that the remaining things are a little be better than they were in Destiny 1. :)

The problem is that they've made it something you have to think about now. I used to be able to run through a few levels, collect engrams, and just turn them all in the next time I was called back to the tower. If I wanted to do the engram dance to level up faster, it was a mild annoyance, but wasn't too much trouble.

Sure, even after the "new and improved" system I still totally have the option to play through the levels and decrypt everything all at once after I'm done, and I'm going to have to do that to make any progress in the game. Now, though, every engram I pick up after the first one is gimped in power level because I have higher level gear that is locked in an engram and not included in the power level calculation. And once I finally get to decrypt them all, I'll be unlocking a ton of stuff that's just one small step beyond my current level, instead of seeing a decent jump after playing for a while.

It used to be "Have fun, then collect useful rewards." Now it's "Have fun, or collect useful rewards."

-Disciple

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And your solution seems to be choosing “have useful rewards.” Perhaps consider choosing “have fun” instead. You’ll have more fun that way.

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And your solution seems to be choosing “have useful rewards.” Perhaps consider choosing “have fun” instead. You’ll have more fun that way.

We're arguing different points here. You're telling me I'm making the wrong choice, but I'm arguing that it's stupid that we have to choose at all. Why shouldn't I be able to enjoy the game and get meaningful rewards when I'm done? Why couldn't they fix the engram shuffle problem without introducing an even bigger one by shifting when the decrypted item's power level is decided?

The fact that I might have to choose between enjoying the game and worrying about leveling is dumb, but if I have to choose, I'll have to choose a balance. The missions, strikes, and even just patrol are cool and all, but for me, the raid is the very definition of "fun." It shouldn't be necessary, but if I have to, I'll choose efficiency over fun early on so that I can be prepared for maximum fun on raid day.

And I'd be totally down for a slow-and-steady run through the early game if I can find five more Xboxers who will commit to waiting, going in blind as a group, and staying blind until we finish as a group. Unfortunately, every day beyond raid launch day makes it harder and harder to find a group like that.

-Disciple

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And your solution seems to be choosing “have useful rewards.” Perhaps consider choosing “have fun” instead. You’ll have more fun that way.

We're arguing different points here. You're telling me I'm making the wrong choice, but I'm arguing that it's stupid that we have to choose at all. Why shouldn't I be able to enjoy the game and get meaningful rewards when I'm done? Why couldn't they fix the engram shuffle problem without introducing an even bigger one by shifting when the decrypted item's power level is decided?

The fact that I might have to choose between enjoying the game and worrying about leveling is dumb, but if I have to choose, I'll have to choose a balance. The missions, strikes, and even just patrol are cool and all, but for me, the raid is the very definition of "fun." It shouldn't be necessary, but if I have to, I'll choose efficiency over fun early on so that I can be prepared for maximum fun on raid day.

And I'd be totally down for a slow-and-steady run through the early game if I can find five more Xboxers who will commit to waiting, going in blind as a group, and staying blind until we finish as a group. Unfortunately, every day beyond raid launch day makes it harder and harder to find a group like that.

-Disciple

It sounds like someone isn't choosing to have fun.....

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And I'd be totally down for a slow-and-steady run through the early game if I can find five more Xboxers who will commit to waiting, going in blind as a group, and staying blind until we finish as a group. Unfortunately, every day beyond raid launch day makes it harder and harder to find a group like that.

-Disciple

You've found one guardian right here. I missed out on doing a full blind raid in D1, and I would love to change that for D2. But it is tough finding a group of people willing to wait for each other, not check spoilers or walkthroughs, and be able to coordinate a time to play together. But I am totally down. I'm a PST player, usually able to play from 7:30-10:30 PST whenever my wife works evenings.

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- No text -

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Forgot to add, my GT is SSG Daax.

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EST here, but I'm a night owl so my availability could easily line up with those hours.

Problem is I generally work 5 PM to ~1 AM (EST) on weekends, and I don't have a consistent schedule for which weekdays I have off on any given week.

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How far out do you generally get your schedule? If it's a week or two in advance, it should be possible to plan around it. Ideally, I'd like to have most of a Saturday to give the first run a go, with regroup times planned for Sunday and/or Monday evening in case it doesn't get done on day one.

In past raids, the hardest part has been keeping the original group together after not finishing on the first day. After that first group splits, it's a pain to find more people that either happened to leave off where you did and want to continue blind, are starting a blind run from the beginning but are OK having some in the group who have already done the early part, or *shudders* have already finished the raid, but say they'll keep their mouth(s) shut and let the blind raiders figure things out for themselves.

I have just learned that reddit.com/r/BlindRaids is a thing, though, so maybe regrouping with like-minded people won't be such a nightmare anymore.

-Disciple

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Personally, I don't mind if it takes a while to figure it out together. I if we can't beat it before the reset, I don't mind starting over. As long as we have a good group that can learn to communicate with eachother and have a good time, everything else is just gravy.

As for scheduling, my wife gets her work schedule month by month, so I should be good there.

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Unfortunately, I generally only get my schedule for the next week on the Thursday of the week before, which is hardly ideal. And, while I'd be okay playing before work (or after, but since I close I'm never entirely certain how long I'll be there) time zones make it kind of a mess. Especially with generally working weekends.

If I can't be scheduled around, I won't be broken up about it, but I'm up for trying. (And I'm not worried at all about not getting the Raid done as soon as possible or in the first week of trying it, or anything.)

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I didn't have the opportunity to do a raid blind in D1, and with work/kids/etc the chances of my being ready in a week is laughable. I work a lot of Saturdays in the fall though, so I may not be a great choice if you're set on that day. Let me know if you'd like to play! Xbox GT is the same as my handle here.

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Meh. Obsessing over advancing your light like that seems unfun. Don’t do unfun things and take comfort that the remaining things are a little be better than they were in Destiny 1. :)

I get where you coming from, but we both know that's a bullshit answer. You can play to have fun and not want the game to behave in the most asinine way possible. If there is an "efficient" way to do something, expect your players to do it, and instead of making doing so stupid and inconvenient, just build it to work in a smarter way to begin with.

I'm with you, in that this doesn't really bother me all that much. I suspect I'll be playing enough of the game for it to not matter too much either way. But I'm also not going to just dismiss it as not an issue, because if it does work like is being discussed, it's stupid.

Here's to hoping that maybe instead of engrams dropping, they just get decrypted as you get drops or something, essentially making this a non-issue.

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Before: Collect a ton of engrams, decrypt first engram, equip new item so your new power level is used to determine the level of the next decrypted item, decrypt next engram...

Now: Pick up engram, stop what you're doing and go back to the Cryptarch so your new item will be used to determine the power level of your next engram, return to activity, pick up an engram, stop what you're doing and go back to the Cryptarch...

One step forward, two steps back.

-Disciple

If you ask me, the minor tedium of swapping gear was absolutely NOT the main focus of the problem with the previous system.

It was that the previous system actively discouraged you from playing with any loadout OTHER than the one with the highest light, and if you didn't swap gear before decoding, the game actively punished you for doing so.

If you did an activity underleveled and received an engram and then decoded without switching, your reward was an item leveled to the gear you were wearing, not your highest level achieved.

So if you either were intentionally making the game harder, or at the very least engaging with Destiny's design concept on a basic level by availing yourself of the great variety of weapons and gear-- the game would artificially slow your progress by providing you with gear that was less likely to provide you with any advancement.

What I know I asked for and mentioned more than once during D1's run, was for a system that works the way this one does-- by rolling gear at a light level comparable to your maximum theoretical level. The fair way to do this is for that light level to be calculated at the time the loot drops.

Bungie's entire task with the progression system is how to maintain player engagement, make you feel like you're... well, progressing, and to ensure that the fat part of the curve for players is moving along at a reasonable pace-- not so slow that it is frustrating, not so quickly that you run out of any interesting content to play or progression to make too soon before there's more available.

Rolling the light level of gear at drop, rather than decode, stops players from essentially being able to farm engrams in a single activity and then bootstrap themselves directly to max light.

So players on the back part of the progression curve, who used gear below their max level or did not always switch to max light gear before decoding are going to advance faster-- they are not going to be punished for not intentionally trying to min-max the system. So players will not be punished for not doing something tedious.

If, on the other hand, you HAVE been doing exactly that-- always switching to max light gear, encoding one engram at a time, tediously equipping new gear as you go-- then your progression IS going to be capped unless you're willing to do even MORE tedium by returning to the Cryptarch every time you get an engram, because you're more interested in watching the number go up as much as possible with as little time played as possible.

Given that you can now go from location to activity without orbit, apparently, probably even doing that is going to be too easy, and people will do exactly that and then complain about "having" to do it, and grouse about the good old days when you could bootstrap your light level by treating the Cryptarch's table like a changing booth.

In fact, trying to prevent this kind of runaway levelling is probably what is behind some of the randommness in decrypting-- not everything decodes at the max margin over current light level. When there was no infusion mechanic, your advancement would be limited by the fact that not every item dropped would be for your class. While every item would roll within a certain margin of your current light level, that meant that you could get rolls that didn't increase your max light level because it rolled lower than the particular piece of gear you had in a particular slot.

By rolling light level when engrams drop, it ensures that for Destiny players, there is a direct correlation between the light level of an activity (in comparison to your own max light level) and your prospects for drops that increase light level. Not the number of engrams you collect. And once you reach max light... well, it doesn't matter anymore then when the number is rolled then, does it?

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To be fair, I'm still processing what I've just read in the Update.

So let's go over this together. Maybe I'm missing something here.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

We start with...

PSA: In D2 it's no longer advantageous to equip your most powerful gear when decrypting Engrams. We check for your best possible loadout now
— Mark Noseworthy (@knowsworthy) August 28, 2017

.. which takes into account...

...what the best scenario is for your character across your account. This means that, if you are playing on your [Guardian Class], we might use the Helmet you accidentally left in the vault, the Boots you just picked up but haven't equipped, and the Auto Rifle that you forgot to transfer from your [Other Guardian Class]. Gear on other characters, in the vault, in your inventory, or currently equipped are all compared to find the best loadout you could have.

The system is smart enough to look at level requirements and make sure it ignores anything that is too high for the current character to equip. It also obeys equipping restrictions, so it understands that you can only equip one Exotic weapon and one piece of exotic armor and figures that in.

Alright. So that gives us the extent of the scope in the overall calculation process.

On the smaller scale, with engrams, how are things calculated?

Rewards determine their power at the time they're earned. This means that, when an engram drops in Destiny 2, it decides its power at the time it drops. Also, when we roll rewards, we look at your character's level and your best possible gear to determine the power of the reward. This is true for Crucible end-of-match rewards, Engram drops, Strike rewards, etc. Note that some sources can still produce better gear than others; once you're exploring endgame content look for the "Powerful Gear" rewards in tooltips if you're hunting the best drops.

Ok. So the power is determined, off of the all the existing loot in the entirety of the account, and character level at the time, when said new lootz are earned in whatever form they me be.

Okay, what about the contents of Engrams we haven’t decrypted yet? Are they included when you calculate my best possible equipment?

Daniel: While Engrams do set their power at the time they drop, they don't roll what they contain until the moment you decrypt them. As a result, best possible equipment can't use their contents in its calculations.

If Engrams set their power at the moment they drop, how am I supposed to know which ones have the best gear?

Daniel: Destiny 2's Engrams are pretty cool, because they'll tell you right on the tooltip what the power they dropped at is. This is the minimum power that will come out of the engram.

Alright. I presume this is the part that is causing such a fluster. So while I hold engrams, those items will not be calculated in the overall calculation until decrypted. I see in the picture we can hold up to 10 engrams on person (only 10?)

I'm not seeing the issue here, if there is one.

I wonder what it looks like if you decrypted 10 engrams in a row? Seems to me that with each decryption, the odds get pushed up each time. At the moment I see no problem with this.

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Alright. I presume this is the part that is causing such a fluster. So while I hold engrams, those items will not be calculated in the overall calculation until decrypted. I see in the picture we can hold up to 10 engrams on person (only 10?)

I'm not seeing the issue here, if there is one.

I wonder what it looks like if you decrypted 10 engrams in a row? Seems to me that with each decryption, the odds get pushed up each time. At the moment I see no problem with this.

The problem is this part:

...when an engram drops in Destiny 2, it decides its power at the time it drops.

which means that the odds don't get pushed up with each decryption since the power level range that they're able to decrypt at is determined when the engram drops. Your last engram will have the same window of power levels that it can decrypt at as your first one did, even if your first nine all decrypted at the highest possible levels.

Also, I didn't pay much attention to that picture, but I don't like what I see there, either. Max 10 engrams on your Guardian at one time (which I assume means a MUCH lower drop rate), and as far as we can tell, it's not item specific. So maybe it's a hand cannon, maybe it's that helmet you need, or maybe it's your 11th class item.

I am really holding out hope that maybe someone decided gear would just supplement our light level instead being the sole determining factor for how strong we are. It would be really great for the strength of our Guardians to be based on what we've accomplished instead of the crap we've collected.

I have no real hope that this is the case, but it's all I've got left that Bungie didn't actually make this a BIGGER grindfest.

I should say, though, I'm still REALLY excited to jump into the game Tuesday night. I'm just disappointed that it's looking like the system is specifically designed to prevent us from progressing to raid-ready levels naturally by just playing through the game instead of having to game the system. Who knows, though. Maybe we'll find out that none of this matters and there are pieces to the system that we don't know about yet that make everything work.

-Disciple

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The problem is this part:

...when an engram drops in Destiny 2, it decides its power at the time it drops.

which means that the odds don't get pushed up with each decryption since the power level range that they're able to decrypt at is determined when the engram drops. Your last engram will have the same window of power levels that it can decrypt at as your first one did, even if your first nine all decrypted at the highest possible levels.

Ok. I get that. I think you missed something through. The power level is the minimum! power level.

If Engrams set their power at the moment they drop, how am I supposed to know which ones have the best gear?

Daniel: Destiny 2's Engrams are pretty cool, because they'll tell you right on the tooltip what the power they dropped at is. This is the minimum power that will come out of the engram.

How large is that range? I guess we'll find out.

Also, I didn't pay much attention to that picture, but I don't like what I see there, either. Max 10 engrams on your Guardian at one time (which I assume means a MUCH lower drop rate), and as far as we can tell, it's not item specific. So maybe it's a hand cannon, maybe it's that helmet you need, or maybe it's your 11th class item.

Yea. As noted, 10 does seem abit small. We'll see hands on.

I should say, though, I'm still REALLY excited to jump into the game Tuesday night. I'm just disappointed that it's looking like the system is specifically designed to prevent us from progressing to raid-ready levels naturally by just playing through the game instead of having to game the system. Who knows, though. Maybe we'll find out that none of this matters and there are pieces to the system that we don't know about yet that make everything work.

-Disciple

I look forward to everyones day/week/month/year one thoughts. ;)

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Ok. I get that. I think you missed something through. The power level is the minimum! power level.

If Engrams set their power at the moment they drop, how am I supposed to know which ones have the best gear?

Daniel: Destiny 2's Engrams are pretty cool, because they'll tell you right on the tooltip what the power they dropped at is. This is the minimum power that will come out of the engram.

How large is that range? I guess we'll find out.

That's a very good point, maybe even key to this whole debate, depending on how wide the range actually is.

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I'm just disappointed that it's looking like the system is specifically designed to prevent us from progressing to raid-ready levels naturally by just playing through the game instead of having to game the system.

Wait, what?!

"Gaming the system" is having to juggle gear while decrypting engrams to climb the light ladder! It seems to me that Bungie is keenly aware of that kind of problem and has taken rather dramatic steps to make progression more natural through normal gameplay.

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"Gaming the system" is having to juggle gear while decrypting engrams to climb the light ladder! It seems to me that Bungie is keenly aware of that kind of problem and has taken rather dramatic steps to make progression more natural through normal gameplay.

Yeah I have to agree with this. I think this is done intentionally to make the player's leveling more of a natural increase as you complete missions and to discourage farming. Bungie has shown a desire to discourage farming in the past, repeatedly. If it worked how the community would like then farming an area would be the most efficient way to level up. This encourages players to play an activity, get some engrams and rewards, then go get the engrams decrypted and purchase from a vendor with the rewards received, rather then sitting in the same area shooting the same group of enemies over and over (hmm... that sounds familiar).

This is only really going to be annoying if leveling is painfully slow in the game when it releases, something we don't have any idea of at the moment (and if some of you do for some reason, don't let me know, I'd rather find out on Tuesday night).

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"Gaming the system" is having to juggle gear while decrypting engrams to climb the light ladder! It seems to me that Bungie is keenly aware of that kind of problem and has taken rather dramatic steps to make progression more natural through normal gameplay.

Yeah I have to agree with this. I think this is done intentionally to make the player's leveling more of a natural increase as you complete missions and to discourage farming. Bungie has shown a desire to discourage farming in the past, repeatedly. If it worked how the community would like then farming an area would be the most efficient way to level up. This encourages players to play an activity, get some engrams and rewards, then go get the engrams decrypted and purchase from a vendor with the rewards received, rather then sitting in the same area shooting the same group of enemies over and over (hmm... that sounds familiar).

It may make farming the most efficient way to level, but it would only be slightly more efficient than just running through a handful of missions or strikes and then turning everything in when you're done. With what we know about the current system, the most efficient path will be to drop into the area with the shortest path to the best group of enemies to kill for engrams, run back to the Cryptarch, rinse and repeat. And God help us all if someone determines that the first part of a strike turns out to be the quickest route to an engram. It sounds like a terrible way to play, but if it's the fastest way to level, people will do it and complain about how grindy the game is.

This is only really going to be annoying if leveling is painfully slow in the game when it releases, something we don't have any idea of at the moment (and if some of you do for some reason, don't let me know, I'd rather find out on Thursday night).

100% agree. I REALLY hope that it turns out that the engrams have very little impact on how we level up. I'd love to see us level up more from end of mission/strike rewards, and only see maybe one or two engrams per mission. I'm crossing my fingers that this whole conversation turns out to be completely meaningless come launch day.

-Disciple

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It may make farming the most efficient way to level, but it would only be slightly more efficient than just running through a handful of missions or strikes and then turning everything in when you're done. With what we know about the current system, the most efficient path will be to drop into the area with the shortest path to the best group of enemies to kill for engrams, run back to the Cryptarch, rinse and repeat.

And the truth is we don't know how often engrams drop, or what decrypts on its own without a crytarch. If how often engrams dropped has decreased then it could be just as efficient to just finish the activity, especially since I'm guessing that actually finishing an activity will yield better drops just as they did in D1. You might be able to get a handful of rares by just killing a group of enemies early in a strike, but how likely are you to get legendaries and exotics? And even better, if rares decrypt on their own (which would be a change that fits with this system since then rares wouldn't fill up your limited engram slots) then it would pretty much always be a good thing to wait until the end of the activity.

Obviously lots of unknowns, I'm excited to find out next week!

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I don't see how Bungie ever discouraged farming. Mainly because their entire endgame is based around farming. They even added modifiers to increase your drops if you stayed in the strike playlist. That seems like encouraging farming.

FWIW, I think the new way sounds dumb, but I'll reserve judgment until we see it in action, and it won't bother me too much either way.

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Generally I consider farming staying in one location or fighting the same enemy or enemies over and over. You didn't get a bonus that encouraged farming, you got a bonus for playing the activities as intended and not dropping out because you were trying to get a strike that dropped X (whether that's good design or not is a whole different conversation).

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Generally I consider farming staying in one location or fighting the same enemy or enemies over and over.

So staying in the same playlist and playing strikes over and over is any different?!

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Generally I consider farming staying in one location or fighting the same enemy or enemies over and over.

So staying in the same playlist and playing strikes over and over is any different?!

Yes in my opinion. I mean I'm surprised you're saying they're the same honestly. Shooting into a cave or killing the same 3 groups of enemies in one small location is WAY different than playing strikes. Farming or grinding is playing in a way I don't like to increase my level/get items. If I don't like an activity I don't play it. And you know what's SUPER boring? Staying in one location so that I can "level faster."

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Generally I consider farming staying in one location or fighting the same enemy or enemies over and over.

So staying in the same playlist and playing strikes over and over is any different?!

Yes in my opinion. I mean I'm surprised you're saying they're the same honestly. Shooting into a cave or killing the same 3 groups of enemies in one small location is WAY different than playing strikes. Farming or grinding is playing in a way I don't like to increase my level/get items. If I don't like an activity I don't play it. And you know what's SUPER boring? Staying in one location so that I can "level faster."

It absolutely is not on a conceptual level any different.

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So staying in the same playlist and playing strikes over and over is any different?!

Yes in my opinion. I mean I'm surprised you're saying they're the same honestly. Shooting into a cave or killing the same 3 groups of enemies in one small location is WAY different than playing strikes. Farming or grinding is playing in a way I don't like to increase my level/get items. If I don't like an activity I don't play it. And you know what's SUPER boring? Staying in one location so that I can "level faster."

It absolutely is not on a conceptual level any different.

We should just stop talking because I can't think of anything to say aside from that is the stupidest thing I've ever read.

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So staying in the same playlist and playing strikes over and over is any different?!

Yes in my opinion. I mean I'm surprised you're saying they're the same honestly. Shooting into a cave or killing the same 3 groups of enemies in one small location is WAY different than playing strikes. Farming or grinding is playing in a way I don't like to increase my level/get items. If I don't like an activity I don't play it. And you know what's SUPER boring? Staying in one location so that I can "level faster."

It absolutely is not on a conceptual level any different.

We should just stop talking because I can't think of anything to say aside from that is the stupidest thing I've ever read.

Playing a strike over and over in hopes of getting loot.
Shooting dudes in a cave over and over to get loot.

1. Both repetitive
2. Both motivated by reward
3. Both done with efficiency

The exact same thing, one is just disguised better.

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Playing a strike over and over in hopes of getting loot.
Shooting dudes in a cave over and over to get loot.

1. Both repetitive
2. Both motivated by reward
3. Both done with efficiency

The exact same thing, one is just disguised better.

You as usual ignored THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of what I said to make your point work.

"If I don't like an activity I don't play it."

The difference is in what's fun and what isn't fun to the individual. I honestly don't know how anyone could play 100s of hours of this game if the only thing they enjoy takes up 10% of that time. Enjoying a well designed strike or a well designed PvP system is what I enjoy. The fact that those activities ALSO give me loot that levels me up is awesome! Shooting into a cave to get leveled up is NOT FUN TO ME. So it is NOT THE SAME. You literally dismissed the MOST IMPORTANT aspect of any video game.

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Talking about Destiny is surely a form of purgatory. We've been having the same exact conversation for three years now and accomplished nothing for it.

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Talking about Destiny is surely a form of purgatory. We've been having the same exact conversation for three years now and accomplished nothing for it.

I know it's really driving me nuts.

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Playing a strike over and over in hopes of getting loot.
Shooting dudes in a cave over and over to get loot.

1. Both repetitive
2. Both motivated by reward
3. Both done with efficiency

The exact same thing, one is just disguised better.

You as usual ignored THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of what I said to make your point work.

"If I don't like an activity I don't play it."

And you ignore the point that, at least in rise of Iron, that was not an option if you wanted to raid. I have to play activities I don't like to do Raids and Trials. Rather than improve since TTK, that aspect got worse.

Nothing should hold me back from choosing the challenges I want to tackle. Nothing that is, but myself and my ability.

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And you ignore the point that, at least in rise of Iron, that was not an option if you wanted to raid. I have to play activities I don't like to do Raids and Trials. Rather than improve since TTK, that aspect got worse.

Nothing should hold me back from choosing the challenges I want to tackle. Nothing that is, but myself and my ability.

I didn't ignore that I actually addressed it directly in my post "I honestly don't know how anyone could play 100s of hours of this game if the only thing they enjoy takes up 10% of that time." You have every right to not like the vast majority of the game, but you KNOW what the game is at this point. YOU CHOOSE to play something you don't like. Bungie isn't holding a gun to your head forcing you to play it. Trying to say that playing strikes and the loot cave are objectively the same is ridiculous. I could train a monkey to shoot into the loot cave for me for hours. Having to negotiate a strike and actually participate in combat is not AT ALL the same. You can dislike it as much, but that's not the same thing.

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I didn't ignore that I actually addressed it directly in my post "I honestly don't know how anyone could play 100s of hours of this game if the only thing they enjoy takes up 10% of that time."

And I have explained this repeatedly in the past.

Mod edit. Removed inappropriate comment.

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See, you're right about that.

Xenos is still right that strikes != loot cave or such farming. They can be the same to you, but it doesn't make them the same in concept; it is specifically the context of what you like that makes them similar to you.

Which cuts both ways; someone probably finds Strikes obnoxious but fucking around on one Patrol area enjoyable, and the latter might be made less effective in the name of farm prevention. But, I feel like that kind of person might generally care less about level? Well, I guess I can't say that.

The point being, you can dislike it but it isn't correct to equivocate it, but also you're right in that slogging through most of the game for great bits at the end isn't ridiculous; though Xenos can of couree personally think it odd I guess.

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The point being, you can dislike it but it isn't correct to equivocate it, but also you're right in that slogging through most of the game for great bits at the end isn't ridiculous; though Xenos can of course personally think it odd I guess.

Oh yeah, like I said he has every right to do it or feel anyway he wants about it, it's the fact that he's deemed it's worth his time to do it AND that he constantly complains about it that is the most ridiculous part to me. It's not changing, it's literally a huge part of the game design.

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The point being, you can dislike it but it isn't correct to equivocate it, but also you're right in that slogging through most of the game for great bits at the end isn't ridiculous; though Xenos can of couree personally think it odd I guess.

But it's exactly equivalent. The 'what' doesn't matter. You could be doing an epic quest spanning an entire game. But the moment you are asked to repeat that as part of investment based progression, it becomes the same thing. Strike playlists and the loot cave are different in degree, but not different in principle.

Understanding this is the key to understanding the poison of investment systems.

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The point being, you can dislike it but it isn't correct to equivocate it, but also you're right in that slogging through most of the game for great bits at the end isn't ridiculous; though Xenos can of course personally think it odd I guess.

But it's exactly equivalent... Strike playlists and the loot cave are different in degree, but not different in principle.

I do not think you understand what the words "exactly equivalent" mean. Stating that degree doesn't matter is so incredibly reductive that's it's pure nonsense. Which means I'm done. Have your final say that I'm sure you'll respond with explaining to me how logically the degree doesn't matter, but I'm not wasting any more time reading you warp your own opinions into "facts".

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The point being, you can dislike it but it isn't correct to equivocate it, but also you're right in that slogging through most of the game for great bits at the end isn't ridiculous; though Xenos can of course personally think it odd I guess.

But it's exactly equivalent... Strike playlists and the loot cave are different in degree, but not different in principle.

I do not think you understand what the words "exactly equivalent" mean. Stating that degree doesn't matter is so incredibly reductive that's it's pure nonsense. Which means I'm done. Have your final say that I'm sure you'll respond with explaining to me how logically the degree doesn't matter, but I'm not wasting any more time reading you warp your own opinions into "facts".

I am sorry the discussion ended this way.

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Wait, wait. So, by this logic, should it matter if the actions are restructured, or reordered, if they are at their core repeated? This is where we get to the disconnect between your emphasis on mastering skills vs. most everyone else's emphasis on fun. And I'm not knocking your priorities!

But sometimes you want to repeat actions to gain mastery, and sometimes you want to repeat actions to have fun.

There is a difference between the game encouraging you to repeatedly play a segment of the game, and to repeatedly play a different segment of the game.

Which differ in many ways, but the two relevant things here are accessibility, and fun. Strike playlists and farming one area of Patrol are both pretty accessible, so we can put this one aside.

The difference here is which people find which fun. The difference is calculated to be better for that number of players who like Strikes more than farming, which is probably a substantial amount of the playerbase.

It doesn't seem any different to you because you don't like either, and you're opposing the investment system in its entirety. But you can still recognize that they are different, and one could be better than the other, even if you think they are both bad.

You don't need to equivocate them, which is at worst just wrong and at best something that will be opposed instead of your actual intent, to make your point. You think being incentivized to repeat something is bad, right? Because you should only repeat it if you want to do the thing again for its own sake?

Just say that. It will be a lot less inflammatory, although what am I saying arguments will inevitably happen.

For my two cents, I'm okay with investment systems. They aren't perfect, and Destiny definitely isn't, but what is?

If you could magically make every piece of gear with every perk available for someone to take and customize as they see fit, would you have a better game? I'm not sure.

I play Magic: the Gathering, a competitive trading card game. I'm a filthy casual, and so I build ridiculous decks that are all about fun, more than efficiency. (You may have noticed a pattern.) They tend to be good at doing what they want to do, and some are easier or more difficult to stop, but there tend to be few dedicated tools to stop people from stopping me. Sometimes, I want to play in an environment where everyone can access all the cards. (Maybe not all of MtG's cards, that's too many cards, but that's beside the point.) That would work great for me, and my More Fun style shenanigans.

Only, I would run into no end of decks that win immediately. You can start culling and tweaking cards to mitigate that, but blah blah metagames. Now, you obviously still have to deal with that without unlimited card access, but- as shallow as it is- rarity is a balancing mechanism. It's one of the worst ones, in my opinion, but it makes things easier for the casual player to find a fair match nonetheless.

Not a solution, but at least a mitigation of the problem. Back when the Vex Mythoclast was broken, how many people used it? Imagine if everyone had had one?

Now, had everyone in development had one, it probably wouldn't have shipped so broken. Which is more my point than false balance.

Without the investment system, would they have pushed such a lovely amount of customization and a system where gear is personal, or cut down to archetypes and made something more like Halo, or I don't know Call of Duty? Do you have to unlock guns and mods in that? I only know local co-op Black Ops II, which I don't really like.

Anyways,

I guess my actual point is I like Destiny the way it is, and some of the worse parts of investment systems are part and parcel with that, as are the good parts, like the feeling of progression and whatnot.

And you're free to disagree, but I'm going to disagree right back, and it's not because I haven't had the enlightenment moment where I recognize the evils of investment systems that were there all along. Because I have recognized their faults, and decided, you know what? I'm okay with that.

(I did later play a CCG where you buy a box and that has all the cards and you can build several decks out of it to play against each other. It wasn't as fun for me, because the tempo and style of play was different, and it lacked depth and room for shenanigans. The devil you know, I guess.)

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Oh man, I am the same kind of player as you. I had a Myr deck a few years back that was literally unstoppable if you got just the right cards. Did terrible against anyone that followed the meta, but it was hilariously fun to go from having 2 Myr down to almost 20 in two turns.

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Oh man, same. My Myr deck is one of my favorites, if not most favorite. It's such a sweet spot of ridiculous, powerful, and effective with the right cards and possible enough to stop to not be miserable to play against, even though it was stocked with some bullshit.

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They are, by far, the most fun I've had playing MTG, even when people don't let me use Heartstone and basically have infinite +infinity/+infinity Trample slivers.

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Wait, wait. So, by this logic, should it matter if the actions are restructured, or reordered, if they are at their core repeated? This is where we get to the disconnect between your emphasis on mastering skills vs. most everyone else's emphasis on fun. And I'm not knocking your priorities!

But sometimes you want to repeat actions to gain mastery, and sometimes you want to repeat actions to have fun.

Investment systems focus on what you have. Mastery is about what you know.

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Yep, that's totally representative of the broader points I was making.

I'm not even annoyed, but. I brought that up to point out that what you're annoyed by isn't repetition- it's the underlying investment system! Once we get there it's basically just "Here's where we agree to disagree" because it's been literal years.

I know investment systems are about having things. I can't say anything to being told that.

If you want to talk about investment systems in some more depth, I made a (admittedly pretty weak) argument further down the post. Other than that, I've got nothing.

My real point is still that this whole discussion was you taking a reasonable position, couching "It's a problem that they're incentivised to repeat something for rewards, whatever they're repeating" as "There is no conceptual difference whatsoever" was really dumb. Because that's only true from a certain perspective, which is hardly how the conceptual properties of things work.

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The point being, you can dislike it but it isn't correct to equivocate it, but also you're right in that slogging through most of the game for great bits at the end isn't ridiculous; though Xenos can of couree personally think it odd I guess.

But it's exactly equivalent. The 'what' doesn't matter. You could be doing an epic quest spanning an entire game. But the moment you are asked to repeat that as part of investment based progression, it becomes the same thing. Strike playlists and the loot cave are different in degree, but not different in principle.

Understanding this is the key to understanding the poison of investment systems.

How are you being poisoned? If it's poison to you, don't drink it. If you're voluntarily drinking poison you're going to find it hard convincing people that you're so much smarter than them that only you've figured out that this stuff is poison.

Repetition as a method of creating sustained engagement is absolutely unavoidable until technology reaches the point where content can be created more quickly than it can be consumed.

If you want a traditional shooter with traditional level progression go play one-- there are lots! Frankly I don't find the rotation of Destiny's activities to be anywhere near as tediously repetitive as competitive multiplayer is, and yet people do that quite a lot because they like it. And previously that was the only possibility for long term engagement when you're done consuming the campaign content and are just waiting for the next release.

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I didn't ignore that I actually addressed it directly in my post "I honestly don't know how anyone could play 100s of hours of this game if the only thing they enjoy takes up 10% of that time."

And I have explained this repeatedly in the past.

Would you not jerk off because the ten second orgasm is not worth the 10 minute trip to the store for lube?

That's a pull quote for a book's dust jacket if I ever saw one.

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Playing a strike over and over in hopes of getting loot.
Shooting dudes in a cave over and over to get loot.

1. Both repetitive
2. Both motivated by reward
3. Both done with efficiency

The exact same thing, one is just disguised better.

You as usual ignored THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of what I said to make your point work.

"If I don't like an activity I don't play it."

And you ignore the point that, at least in rise of Iron, that was not an option if you wanted to raid. I have to play activities I don't like to do Raids and Trials. Rather than improve since TTK, that aspect got worse.

Nothing should hold me back from choosing the challenges I want to tackle. Nothing that is, but myself and my ability.

The Vanguard has no place for prima donnas who want the glory of the raid without putting in the hours doing regular patrols.

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2063 views

Playing a strike over and over in hopes of getting loot.
Shooting dudes in a cave over and over to get loot.

1. Both repetitive
2. Both motivated by reward
3. Both done with efficiency

The exact same thing, one is just disguised better.

You as usual ignored THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of what I said to make your point work.

"If I don't like an activity I don't play it."

And you ignore the point that, at least in rise of Iron, that was not an option if you wanted to raid. I have to play activities I don't like to do Raids and Trials. Rather than improve since TTK, that aspect got worse.

Nothing should hold me back from choosing the challenges I want to tackle. Nothing that is, but myself and my ability.

The Vanguard has no place for prima donnas who want the glory of the raid without putting in the hours doing regular patrols.

Then meet me out in the wild, baby.

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Playing a strike over and over in hopes of getting loot.
Shooting dudes in a cave over and over to get loot.

1. Both repetitive
2. Both motivated by reward
3. Both done with efficiency

The exact same thing, one is just disguised better.

You as usual ignored THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of what I said to make your point work.

"If I don't like an activity I don't play it."

And you ignore the point that, at least in rise of Iron, that was not an option if you wanted to raid. I have to play activities I don't like to do Raids and Trials. Rather than improve since TTK, that aspect got worse.

Nothing should hold me back from choosing the challenges I want to tackle. Nothing that is, but myself and my ability.

The Vanguard has no place for prima donnas who want the glory of the raid without putting in the hours doing regular patrols.

Then meet me out in the wild, baby.

That's where the patrols are.

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So staying in the same playlist and playing strikes over and over is any different?!

Yes in my opinion. I mean I'm surprised you're saying they're the same honestly. Shooting into a cave or killing the same 3 groups of enemies in one small location is WAY different than playing strikes. Farming or grinding is playing in a way I don't like to increase my level/get items. If I don't like an activity I don't play it. And you know what's SUPER boring? Staying in one location so that I can "level faster."

It absolutely is not on a conceptual level any different.

We should just stop talking because I can't think of anything to say aside from that is the stupidest thing I've ever read.

Playing a strike over and over in hopes of getting loot.
Shooting dudes in a cave over and over to get loot.

1. Both repetitive
2. Both motivated by reward
3. Both done with efficiency

The exact same thing, one is just disguised better.

That is so ridiculously reductive it could apply to ANY game with almost any progression system whatsoever OTHER than one that uses a linear progression with no repetition, no randomization.

You can always find enough commonalities and draw a wide enough circle to encompass a huge range of things and say, "these things are essentially all the same" but that doesn't mean you've said anything meaningful.

It's sort of like walking around complaining about how boring the Earth is because all its life is based on carbon.

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That is so ridiculously reductive it could apply to ANY game with almost any progression system whatsoever OTHER than one that uses a linear progression with no repetition, no randomization.

If you had said "Investment system" instead of "progression system", and left out everything after 'whatsoever', you'd be 100% correct.

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That is so ridiculously reductive it could apply to ANY game with almost any progression system whatsoever OTHER than one that uses a linear progression with no repetition, no randomization.

If you had said "Investment system" instead of "progression system", and left out everything after 'whatsoever', you'd be 100% correct.

As I put in the other thread, if you get reductive enough you can make a description of progression system that applies even to a game that appears to have no such system whatsoever. The parts of the system that apply to the term "investment" but not to the term "progression" have nothing to do with raid prerequisites. You can make games that have progression, investment, both or neither.

For instance, as I wrote in the other post-- if you imagine Halo like an RPG, each player starts playing the 1st level and has a "player level" of 1. Each level completion grants an additional "player level" and each level has a minimum required level equal to its number in the level sequence.

I realize you don't like investment systems but fer crissakes that ship has sailed. Destiny is a game that has one-- no, more than has one, is damn near built around it, and despite years of shouting that you're running away from home, you're still playing. I think it's possible that further statements on the subject are no longer elucidating.

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For instance, as I wrote in the other post-- if you imagine Halo like an RPG, each player starts playing the 1st level and has a "player level" of 1. Each level completion grants an additional "player level" and each level has a minimum required level equal to its number in the level sequence.

Your 'level' does not have any effect on avatar power. So in principle it is different.

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For instance, as I wrote in the other post-- if you imagine Halo like an RPG, each player starts playing the 1st level and has a "player level" of 1. Each level completion grants an additional "player level" and each level has a minimum required level equal to its number in the level sequence.

Your 'level' does not have any effect on avatar power. So in principle it is different.

You can't spend your entire time in the argument being ridiculously reductive and then retreat to minutiae when it suits you.

In terms of player progression through content, the above are equivalent. The moment-to-moment experience of "how much damage am I doing to this enemy and why" are separate. Destiny has the usual curve where you start out underleveled, surpass your enemies, you're OP for a little bit, and then you advance to the next area where there are tougher enemies. Halo does not do this but it still unlocks the next area only when the previous one is complete. The difference would be that the relationship between player and enemy power in Destiny is expressed as an average or a median, whereas in Halo it is a constant, and encounter difficulty is modulated entirely by enemy number and placement.

Neither of those are relevant to the discussion, though, and you knew that when you posted it.

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I'm just disappointed that it's looking like the system is specifically designed to prevent us from progressing to raid-ready levels naturally by just playing through the game instead of having to game the system.

Wait, what?!

"Gaming the system" is having to juggle gear while decrypting engrams to climb the light ladder! It seems to me that Bungie is keenly aware of that kind of problem and has taken rather dramatic steps to make progression more natural through normal gameplay.

Then why isn't engram power set at the decrypt stage? This is literally the superior solution with no downside, and no need to game the system. Again, I noticed that is immediately, so there must be some stupid reason they did not design the system like this.

If engram power is set on decide, and if the check is in place to scan all your gear and determine your best level, then the optimal thing would be to simply decrypt engrams period.

With the new system, it is optimal to decrypt an engram as soon as it drops and never carry more than one.

With the old system, swapping gear was required.

These workarounds should just be automatic. Eliminate the need for them in the first place. It's similar with 3 of Coins. Get rid of them. It's just an extra step to use them, and you always have them. Make their drop rate be the default.

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I'll probably regret this, whenever I post something like this on the internet I just end up being a target... but, here it goes anyway.

I understand being upset about the "optimal upgrade path" problems the new engram system creates. I've been somewhat upset about it too after reading that they don't take current engram levels into account. But then I had a thought, what if I have my eye on the wrong target. What do I mean? Read on...

What really matters (or at least should matter to me) is the speed of upgrade, or time/light (TPL). Does this new system slow down TPL from where it is presently? Now don't get distracted by the fact that if they did it Different we could level faster, if we're going to get upset about that then we might as well be upset that we can't hit max light instantly, that'd be faster (better?) too #cody ;-) :-). What we should really be concerned about is the TPL. If it ends up being no Different than previously then this is clearly a better system in that it will eliminate the equipment shuffle at the cryptarch. I suspect Bungie has looked at the TPL with this new engram system and ensured it's at the rate they desire. Also, I'd bet that our TPL will be slower if we go to the cryptarch every time we get an engram. I bet the optimal path will be to play a few missions/strikes, then go decrypt.

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Eh. Thing is, it sounds like you can game the system to increase the intended TPL, but that requires some really big effort for small-ish returns, like going to the Cryptarch EVERY TIME an engram drops. I think that's what folk is concerned about here. Back in D1, we also gamed the system to increase the intended TPL, but it was a minor effort for a noticeable return.

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I'll probably regret this, whenever I post something like this on the internet I just end up being a target... but, here it goes anyway.

I understand being upset about the "optimal upgrade path" problems the new engram system creates. I've been somewhat upset about it too after reading that they don't take current engram levels into account. But then I had a thought, what if I have my eye on the wrong target. What do I mean? Read on...

What really matters (or at least should matter to me) is the speed of upgrade, or time/light (TPL). Does this new system slow down TPL from where it is presently? Now don't get distracted by the fact that if they did it Different we could level faster, if we're going to get upset about that then we might as well be upset that we can't hit max light instantly, that'd be faster (better?) too #cody ;-) :-). What we should really be concerned about is the TPL. If it ends up being no Different than previously then this is clearly a better system in that it will eliminate the equipment shuffle at the cryptarch. I suspect Bungie has looked at the TPL with this new engram system and ensured it's at the rate they desire. Also, I'd bet that our TPL will be slower if we go to the cryptarch every time we get an engram. I bet the optimal path will be to play a few missions/strikes, then go decrypt.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think it really matters how it compares to the current (D1) situation. The new system may be an improvement over the old system, but it still seems like they've unnecessarily divided your upgrade options into either the fun path (play the game, turn in stuff when you're done) or the optimal path (pause the fun to run to the Cryptarch after every engram) instead of letting the fun path BE the optimal path.

-Disciple

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I get what you're saying, but I don't think it really matters how it compares to the current (D1) situation. The new system may be an improvement over the old system, but it still seems like they've unnecessarily divided your upgrade options into either the fun path (play the game, turn in stuff when you're done) or the optimal path (pause the fun to run to the Cryptarch after every engram) instead of letting the fun path BE the optimal path.

I guess the optimal path will depend on the legendary drop rate (off of non-bosses), how long it takes to complete a mission, and how long it take to go to the cryptarch.

At present we can only compare to D1... so that's what I'm going to go off of. Legendary engram drops from enemies rarely happen (excluding bosses). So, typically, you'll get legendary engrams after defeating a boss at the end of a mission and you'll just head to the cryptarch then, which is pretty normal behavior at present. What DOES concern me is that raids will turn into a disjointed-everyone-go-to-the-cryptarch-after-each-boss experience. This could be fixed by having the raid bosses only drop actual gear, never engrams.

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I get what you're saying, but I don't think it really matters how it compares to the current (D1) situation. The new system may be an improvement over the old system, but it still seems like they've unnecessarily divided your upgrade options into either the fun path (play the game, turn in stuff when you're done) or the optimal path (pause the fun to run to the Cryptarch after every engram) instead of letting the fun path BE the optimal path.

I guess the optimal path will depend on the legendary drop rate (off of non-bosses), how long it takes to complete a mission, and how long it take to go to the cryptarch.

I might be totally cool with this if legendaries only dropped from bosses. That way you would only need (for the optimal leveling path) to head to the Cryptarch after you're already done with the mission or strike, anyway.

At present we can only compare to D1... so that's what I'm going to go off of. Legendary engram drops from enemies rarely happen (excluding bosses). So, typically, you'll get legendary engrams after defeating a boss at the end of a mission and you'll just head to the cryptarch then, which is pretty normal behavior at present. What DOES concern me is that raids will turn into a disjointed-everyone-go-to-the-cryptarch-after-each-boss experience. This could be fixed by having the raid bosses only drop actual gear, never engrams.

I would LOVE this. I kind of wish the engram system wasn't a thing anyway. I liked the idea of "every weapon will tell a story of your Guardian's achievements." But in D1, most of those "stories" were, "I decrypted an engram and got this cool thing. It might have come from that big boss fight, but it might have been from that Dreg I killed on the way back. I dunno. They're all mixed together now."

-Disciple

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I get what you're saying, but I don't think it really matters how it compares to the current (D1) situation. The new system may be an improvement over the old system, but it still seems like they've unnecessarily divided your upgrade options into either the fun path (play the game, turn in stuff when you're done) or the optimal path (pause the fun to run to the Cryptarch after every engram) instead of letting the fun path BE the optimal path.

I guess the optimal path will depend on the legendary drop rate (off of non-bosses), how long it takes to complete a mission, and how long it take to go to the cryptarch.

At present we can only compare to D1... so that's what I'm going to go off of. Legendary engram drops from enemies rarely happen (excluding bosses). So, typically, you'll get legendary engrams after defeating a boss at the end of a mission and you'll just head to the cryptarch then, which is pretty normal behavior at present. What DOES concern me is that raids will turn into a disjointed-everyone-go-to-the-cryptarch-after-each-boss experience. This could be fixed by having the raid bosses only drop actual gear, never engrams.

Also, I wanted to mention this:

Daniel: Destiny 2's Engrams are pretty cool, because they'll tell you right on the tooltip what the power they dropped at is. This is the minimum power that will come out of the engram.

Minimum power, who's to say it doesn't take into account your current if you've increased in light before decrypting? We don't know, they haven't said, but I hope this is the case.

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Also, I wanted to mention this:

Daniel: Destiny 2's Engrams are pretty cool, because they'll tell you right on the tooltip what the power they dropped at is. This is the minimum power that will come out of the engram.

Minimum power, who's to say it doesn't take into account your current if you've increased in light before decrypting? We don't know, they haven't said, but I hope this is the case.

I would be OK with this, but I interpreted it as being the same way a minimum power is set in the current system at the time of decryption to ensure that your item is at or above your current power level, but is also capped at a few levels above your current power level.

If the minimum is set at pickup, and then possibly adjusted upward at the time of decrpytion, then cool beans. I would assume it's more likely to work like D1 where both the minimum and maximum values are set at the same time. I would love to be wrong, though.

-Disciple

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Also, I wanted to mention this:

Daniel: Destiny 2's Engrams are pretty cool, because they'll tell you right on the tooltip what the power they dropped at is. This is the minimum power that will come out of the engram.

Minimum power, who's to say it doesn't take into account your current if you've increased in light before decrypting? We don't know, they haven't said, but I hope this is the case.

I would be OK with this, but I interpreted it as being the same way a minimum power is set in the current system at the time of decryption to ensure that your item is at or above your current power level, but is also capped at a few levels above your current power level.

If the minimum is set at pickup, and then possibly adjusted upward at the time of decrpytion, then cool beans. I would assume it's more likely to work like D1 where both the minimum and maximum values are set at the same time. I would love to be wrong, though.

Yeah, I dunno. I can hope! :)

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This could be fixed by having the raid bosses only drop actual gear, never engrams.

I'd be surprised if that's NOT how it works since that's what currently happens in D1 Raids. The only engrams that drop are from the chests between bosses.

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Again, it helps to take a look at the purpose of avatar leveling systems in games to see why they are not nessesary in an FPS.

Keep in mind that leveling and upgrade systems are not the same. Upgrade systems like in Deus Ex kick ass and make the the game more challenging, more interesting, and more diverse. What we are talking about are systems that deal with traditional power levels. Systems where your power is directly tied to a level. This is different than acquiring weapons and skills as you progress through the game.

The purpose of such systems is to decouple effectiveness from player skill. The reason being in tabletop games was that you as a player weren't actually swinging a sword or shooting a bow or whatnot, so there was no way for "you" to get better. Thus, leveling was a way to allow your character to become more adept in world, as they would as they progress on their adventures.

RPGs kept the leveling system because at their core they are very simple games that don't have a lot of depth and are easy to master. The systems are not very dynamic, and thus players could master them very quickly. Play a Final Fantasy game and see what I mean. Attack, heal, repeat. You could finish the game very easily. So to give the illusion of progression and difficulty, your avatar had a power level as did the enemies.

It should be obvious the FPS is a genre that is pretty deep and diverse with plenty of room for player skill to grow, and for challenges to strain the players. This on principle, there is absolutely zero reason for an avatar leveling system to exist in Destiny. None. The game would be far better suited if players acquired skills and weapons as they play without such a system.

There is a reason for the system, and that is time. It's designed to hold you back even if you are ready skill wise. Because Bungie wants you to constantly play Destiny, without realizing that no game can sustain that without either an insanely expensive conveyor belt of content, or time wasting grinding.

It's a solution to a non problem.

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More grind = more play time.

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This is more question based, and I know I've not received all of the information, I've avoided watching any of the EDZ footage and such.

Are we assuming this new system will be worse based on the engram drop rate from D1? I just finished the Destiny Community podcast and they discussed this and mentioned that all engrams go into general "holding area" and we can only hold limited engrams at a time.

In D1, engrams drop willy nilly random tandem. Perhaps in D2 engrams don't drop as often or randomly but yield better gear.

So instead of picking up 15 engrams that we toss aside for weapon parts or armor material, we get fewer engrams, but more worth keeping.

eh?

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Definitely a potential factor, I did see someone mention it but it hasn't really found its way into the discussion at large.

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Before: Collect a ton of engrams, decrypt first engram, equip new item so your new power level is used to determine the level of the next decrypted item, decrypt next engram...

Now: Pick up engram, stop what you're doing and go back to the Cryptarch so your new item will be used to determine the power level of your next engram, return to activity, pick up an engram, stop what you're doing and go back to the Cryptarch...

One step forward, two steps back.

-Disciple

Okay, lets run the three scenarios of leveling in Destiny.

1. Running the campaign: Light isn't really that important, lots of content to chew through, no real need.

2. Campaign finished, early end game: Technique is useful here to generate a lot of blues to level you up, but it's not really necessary as you still have quests and such to help level up.

3. Late End game/ Nightfalls/Trials/ Raids/faction packages: You don't level up from engrams, you drop the equipment immediately and get one thing at the end of the activity. Also, Faction package rewards are a big part of this, and we've seen faction packages are playing a bigger role.

There are some other things we know that also kind of undercut the value of this.

1. More in Level decryption. We've seen auto decrypting blue engrams in the patrols.
2. More focus on end of activity rewards
3. Faster trips back to the farm

I think moving to a "Light on acquisition system" has some tangible benefits too.

1. More information available on pick up.
2. No need to Horde a shitload of engrams/ reduce the number of weapons you carry into the field.
3. much less time fiddling around at Rahool

I think overall, moving away from playing "Engram to level up faster kludges" is a positive here, and is going to result in overall dramatically improve the quality of life of leveling.

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I think overall, moving away from playing "Engram to level up faster kludges" is a positive here, and is going to result in overall dramatically improve the quality of life of leveling.

Also, the fact that a minimum light level being determined at drop is a good thing for leveling alternates. When your primary character is at a high light level it can pass off engrams to your lower light characters who will, when decrypting armor, get armor with a light level that is guaranteed to be higher than their current light.

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I think overall, moving away from playing "Engram to level up faster kludges" is a positive here, and is going to result in overall dramatically improve the quality of life of leveling.

Also, the fact that a minimum light level being determined at drop is a good thing for leveling alternates. When your primary character is at a high light level it can pass off engrams to your lower light characters who will, when decrypting armor, get armor with a light level that is guaranteed to be higher than their current light.

I guess it depends on what attributes are locked in at the same time the minimum power level is set. Right now I'm imagining everything that happens in D1 at decryption, happens in D2 at pickup. If that means the class type is set at pickup, then that would kind of suck. If the class type isn't set at pickup, then your new level 1 guardian could potentially be max light after one trip to the Cryptarch if your alt has been hoarding engrams.

Man, I feel like a serious Debbie Downer today. I've got a potential negative for every positive. Maybe my subconscious is trying to crush my expectations so that I can be blown away by D2 awesomeness next week :p

-Disciple

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I guess it depends on what attributes are locked in at the same time the minimum power level is set. Right now I'm imagining everything that happens in D1 at decryption, happens in D2 at pickup. If that means the class type is set at pickup, then that would kind of suck. If the class type isn't set at pickup, then your new level 1 guardian could potentially be max light after one trip to the Cryptarch if your alt has been hoarding engrams.

Yeah, I expect that the level requirements still exist, so that level 1 guardian will have to wait until its experience hits level 20 (or whatever level they need to be to use legendaries) then they could pretty much be at instant max light... assuming class isn't locked on pickup, but if you're running multiple of the same class then that doesn't matter.

Man, I feel like a serious Debbie Downer today. I've got a potential negative for every positive. Maybe my subconscious is trying to crush my expectations so that I can be blown away by D2 awesomeness next week :p

Fight the hype. :) I'm TRYING to keep my expectations tempered, but it's hard.

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since the power level is determined at the time of drop, it will no longer be advantageous to hoard engrams prior to an expansion in the hopes of speed leveling.

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- Don't want us speed leveling.
- Releases raid 1 week after launch.

If they held off on the endgame releases for a couple of weeks, there wouldn't be as much of a rush to level up.

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I get what you're saying, and I completely agree. I'd love for the raid to have been released after a month instead of a week.

But we're all still assuming a Destiny 1 styled rush to the raid. It's totally possible that the story will lead you exactly to the raid in terms of both plot/motivation and light level. That's what I'm hoping for. Granted, if there really is as much content to get through as they say, it stills seems like a week is a big rush to get there, but it'd still be a major improvement.

I'm hoping that hitting max light isn't the chore that it was in Destiny 1, and that doing the story and raid will basically get you there, and from that point getting engrams will be purely about equipment variety and not light level grinding.

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I get what you're saying, and I completely agree. I'd love for the raid to have been released after a month instead of a week.

But we're all still assuming a Destiny 1 styled rush to the raid. It's totally possible that the story will lead you exactly to the raid in terms of both plot/motivation and light level. That's what I'm hoping for.

You're hoping for Destiny 2 to feature only a week's worth of content at launch?

The only thing I can hope for is the idea that they've put in enough roadblocks to progress that it won't actually matter-- that the gap between the highest light player and the lowest is such that it won't really be possible (or perhaps at least not so easy) for people to get spoiled by seeing a lot of raid content long before they're ready.

For instance if the best level up opportunities are keyed to weekly activities, then it doesn't matter how many crazy hours the bleeding edge of players and streamers are putting in, they'll still be just as raid-unready as you when it drops. So assuming you're even high enough light to launch the activity on day 1, you might as well go in because you wouldn't be seeing much less of it than anyone else who tries.

I think the problem comes where speed leveling makes it possible for those who spend a lot of hours to hit max light before the raid drops (which might be 20 points over the minimum for the raid) whereas others may be 10 or even 20 points under at the same time, and unable to even join the activity.

I'm guessing it's not that aggressively gated, though, which means lots of people will end up seeing raid content before they play it.

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Raid: 10 AM PT, September 13
Trials: 10 AM PT, September 15

Jeez, both so soon. I sure hope leveling up is reasonable (although that engram thing sounds...pretty dumb).

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Raid: 10 AM PT, September 13
Trials: 10 AM PT, September 15

Jeez, both so soon. I sure hope leveling up is reasonable (although that engram thing sounds...pretty dumb).

Yea. One week seems rather short to me as well. Yet when I checked how long we had intill the Vault of Glass was unlocked, it was only one week too! (September 16, 2014. Destiny launch was September 9, 2014).

It's all such a blur.

RIP PC raiders trying not to get spoiled on this raid.

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Raid: 10 AM PT, September 13
Trials: 10 AM PT, September 15

Jeez, both so soon. I sure hope leveling up is reasonable (although that engram thing sounds...pretty dumb).

Yea. One week seems rather short to me as well. Yet when I checked how long we had intill the Vault of Glass was unlocked, it was only one week too! (September 16, 2014. Destiny launch was September 9, 2014).

It's all such a blur.

RIP PC raiders trying not to get spoiled on this raid.

That's actually going to be a pretty huge deal. It's the first introduction to the game for a lot of PC people, so they are being sold short unless they try extra hard to not be spoiled or play with those who do. Worse, if they are new they won't know how important this is when it comes to enjoying the raid maximally.

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That's actually going to be a pretty huge deal. It's the first introduction to the game for a lot of PC people, so they are being sold short unless they try extra hard to not be spoiled or play with those who do. Worse, if they are new they won't know how important this is when it comes to enjoying the raid maximally.

i would guess that a large portion of PC gamers have raided in some form or fashion in other games.

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RIP PC raiders trying not to get spoiled on this raid.

Yup, I have a coworker who will be playing it on the PC, but he decided he needs to play through the raid on his xb1 so he doesn't get spoiled.

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GET READY BITCHEZ!!!

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Fair. I was out of town for my anniversary, so I didn't really spend much time on it. Seriously though, there's zero news in this THAB. The movies were cool.

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THAB 08/31/17 (Destiny)

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

No light levels

No light levels

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

Rock on!

Rock on!

Also willing

Also willing

Also willing

Also willing

I would love to try it blind

So, they actually made the engram situation worse?

No, not really.

Not worse, just different.

Not worse, just different.

Not worse, just different.

Not worse, just different.

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

LOL

LOL

Yar! Acursed we be!

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

MTG tangent

MTG tangent

Sliver dekcs ftw

Natural progression

Natural progression

Natural progression

Dust jacket

Patrols

Patrols

Patrols

Ridiculous

Ridiculous

Investment

Investment

Irrelevant