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Music Respawn! (Podcast featuring Mike Salvtori) (Destiny)

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, October 12, 2017, 10:30 (2438 days ago)

This floated across my Twitter feed today and I think its gonna be good. I’m only a couple of minutes in, but the interviewer already knows her stuff and Mike seems to know her and is nice and friendly (as in this ain’t just some forced promo stunt).

Go give it a listen when you get a chance. :)

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Music Respawn! (Podcast featuring Mike Salvtori)

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, October 12, 2017, 11:55 (2438 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Interview was pretty good, and my first impression was correct, the interviewer really knew her stuff. There's also multiple long clips of D2 music that space apart the interview. It was nice to hear Mike talk about a piece then get to hear it immediately without having to switch to the soundtrack myself.

Also, absolutely zero mentions of Martin O'Donnell.

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Marty

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, October 12, 2017, 14:08 (2438 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Thanks for posting this. Definitely going to give it a listen at work tomorrow.

I'm glad Marty didn't come up--the music in Destiny 2 is astounding on its own merits, and not everything has to be brought back around to Marty leaving.

For those craving more Marty, though, scroll back through previous episode to July 24th's for an episode featuring Marty about Echoes of the First Dreamer.

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+1 Thanks for the referral.

by SteelGaribaldi @, Sol system, Thursday, October 12, 2017, 17:50 (2438 days ago) @ cheapLEY

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Marty

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, October 12, 2017, 19:23 (2437 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by Cody Miller, Thursday, October 12, 2017, 19:29

I'm glad Marty didn't come up--the music in Destiny 2 is astounding on its own merits, and not everything has to be brought back around to Marty leaving.

Here's the thing: Marty's contributions at Bungie weren't just music / audio related.

Marty has a really solid grasp on video games. He knows what's fun, what works, and what doesn't. He worked with designers and programmers. He was on the board of directors for a time. He wasn't just the music guy.

His absence will affect Bungie beyond just what comes out of your speakers.

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Marty

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, October 12, 2017, 20:19 (2437 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I understand that.

That’s not what that podcast is about though, so it’s not really relevant in this context.

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Marty

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, October 13, 2017, 13:23 (2437 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I understand that.

That’s not what that podcast is about though, so it’s not really relevant in this context.

Well, the music doesn’t start and stop at the right time in Des2ny, something that Marty figured out a long time ago. So even if it’s good, if it plays at the wrong time and that’s bad.

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I agree except...

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, October 13, 2017, 13:33 (2437 days ago) @ Cody Miller

it's not global problem in D2. Sometimes the music plays at precisely the right time, and it's wonderful.

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I've had very few issues with that

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Friday, October 13, 2017, 13:34 (2437 days ago) @ Kermit

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I agree except...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, October 13, 2017, 13:37 (2437 days ago) @ Kermit

it's not global problem in D2. Sometimes the music plays at precisely the right time, and it's wonderful.

This was pretty much never a problem in Halo or in Destiny. Even TTK and Rise of Iron were good here. Bungie was batting .995 in this area until now. Why it has suddenly slipped I don't know.

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Marty

by cheapLEY @, Friday, October 13, 2017, 14:38 (2437 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I agree with that. Even that is drastically outside the context of what this podcast is about, which is the actual music itself. So again, I’m glad Marty didn’t come up. That’s the past, and irrelevant to what they were actually discussing.

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Marty

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, October 13, 2017, 14:44 (2437 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I understand that.

That’s not what that podcast is about though, so it’s not really relevant in this context.


Well, the music doesn’t start and stop at the right time in Des2ny, something that Marty figured out a long time ago. So even if it’s good, if it plays at the wrong time and that’s bad.

I saw the Angry Joe video you linked, and though he said the music sometimes misbehaved, he did not provide any examples. No, him brushing his teeth on camera to Destiny music is not a real example.

My feeling is that during actual missions and Strikes and other planned combat, the music and loops are as good as ever. It starts and stops when it should in turn with the the major combat triggers.

Where things are a bit different are places that the Halo series never really had: In the open world on Patrol. There the music does kinda have to do some guess work if you're just roaming along so the battle music might not cut out as dramatically as in a mission, but it still does keep track of when you kill the last enemy nearby and transitions to quiet or general Patrol music after a short while.

Music during Public Events does start and stop pretty well from what I remember, for instance. But that should be pretty easy because those have clear victory and defeat conditions.

Really, it's just the nature of the open world and, from my impressions, Destiny 2 is no worse than something like Skyrim or Witcher 3 in that regard, both of which could and would fire up the most dramatic loop for... killing a long wolf, and keep it running for several seconds afterward, especially if another enemy was anywhere nearby even if it wasn't actively attacking you.

So, Cody, when you say the music doesn't start or stop at the right times... what are you actually talking about? Angry Joe provided no real examples. Do you have any?

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This is exactly the post I was going to make...

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Friday, October 13, 2017, 15:45 (2437 days ago) @ Ragashingo

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Marty

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, October 13, 2017, 16:51 (2437 days ago) @ Ragashingo
edited by Cody Miller, Friday, October 13, 2017, 16:56

So, Cody, when you say the music doesn't start or stop at the right times... what are you actually talking about? Angry Joe provided no real examples. Do you have any?

It happened often enough, and egregiously enough, that it was noticeable. It happened most frequently during downtime in missions (music not stopping), and between missions (music playing when it shouldn't).

Also when you leave the city and are following the bird… the epic music plays and plays and plays… even as seemingly nothing is happening after you kill all the enemies.

Destiny did not have this problem. The blame is not on patrol mode.

The nature of a dynamic music system means I can't give specifics beyond that.

I noticed this my very first playthrough and was put off. I can only speak for my own experience.

Marty

by marmot 1333 @, Friday, October 13, 2017, 23:21 (2436 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Also when you leave the city and are following the bird… the epic music plays and plays and plays… even as seemingly nothing is happening after you kill all the enemies.

That was most definitely a conscious artistic choice, one I believe was the right one. That music section is an emotionally powerful string quartet playing while there is close-to-little gunplay. (Played by the Kronos Quartet, possibly the most famous string quartet in the world.)

It's designed to set a mood: When else do you remember ever hearing a string section by itself in Destiny? (I don't think that ever happened in the entirety of D1's OST, although someone please let me know if I'm wrong.) It highlights the fact that you fell from power, lost your abilities, and you're on your own. Even if you turn left and fall off the cliff (like I did the first time) the music keeps playing continuously.

I haven't noticed any other times during gameplay when music seemed inappropriate, as you describe. Perhaps they were trying to accomplish something different with the sound design than what you expected.

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Be like Marty

by Pyromancy @, discovering fire every week, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 00:31 (2436 days ago) @ marmot 1333
edited by Pyromancy, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 00:52

Also when you leave the city and are following the bird… the epic music plays and plays and plays… even as seemingly nothing is happening after you kill all the enemies.


That was most definitely a conscious artistic choice, one I believe was the right one. That music section is an emotionally powerful string quartet playing while there is close-to-little gunplay. (Played by the Kronos Quartet, possibly the most famous string quartet in the world.)

It's designed to set a mood: When else do you remember ever hearing a string section by itself in Destiny? (I don't think that ever happened in the entirety of D1's OST, although someone please let me know if I'm wrong.) It highlights the fact that you fell from power, lost your abilities, and you're on your own. Even if you turn left and fall off the cliff (like I did the first time) the music keeps playing continuously.

I haven't noticed any other times during gameplay when music seemed inappropriate, as you describe. Perhaps they were trying to accomplish something different with the sound design than what you expected.

These are great points Marmot. Some of it partially deduced from the interview of Mike with Kate Remington from WSHU/NPR? I know personally I don't think I really put it all together until I heard the interview.

I noticed the issue with music not triggering a stop in a number of other places during my playthrough. Yes, my first and only playthrough so far and no sorry I do not do video capture or have any proof.
I was not in any particular hurry to beat a level (nor finish the game). Instead I stopped to 'smell the roses'. I love audio, I enjoyed the scenery, gawked at sky-boxes, looked at visual details, tried to find my way out of levels and break the game, shoot windows walls and textures, find secrets, destroy environment pieces, discover alternate paths, reach the highest point in the city, etc. If you stop or explore, the music tends to not stop, quiet down, or adapt to you and your gameplay.

I've been looking for a video/interview and I can't find it. I couldn't find it so I decided not to stick my nose into the other topic a week ago regarding this issue.
Anyone remember an interview with Marty where he talks about the active music timing out in response to your game action or after a set amount of time of 'inactivity'. Was it called "The Marty Timer" or something like that? (or maybe somehow I made that up?)

This was something close I could find through rudimentary search:
Remember The Stripey Room? :)

Timestamps 5:18-6:43; 7:18-7:36; 11:30-End





Timestamps 0:56-2:46;

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Be like Marty

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 09:37 (2436 days ago) @ Pyromancy

I noticed the issue with music not triggering a stop in a number of other places during my playthrough. Yes, my first and only playthrough so far and no sorry I do not do video capture or have any proof.
I was not in any particular hurry to beat a level (nor finish the game). Instead I stopped to 'smell the roses'. I love audio, I enjoyed the scenery, gawked at sky-boxes, looked at visual details, tried to find my way out of levels and break the game, shoot windows walls and textures, find secrets, destroy environment pieces, discover alternate paths, reach the highest point in the city, etc. If you stop or explore, the music tends to not stop, quiet down, or adapt to you and your gameplay.

Yes, this is largely what I am talking about. However, I did not try to go nearly as out of the way as you. I did detour and linger, but nothing as abnormal as trying to get out of the map. Certainly within expected behavior.

Be like Marty

by marmot 1333 @, Sunday, October 15, 2017, 09:53 (2435 days ago) @ Pyromancy

These are great points Marmot. Some of it partially deduced from the interview of Mike with Kate Remington from WSHU/NPR? I know personally I don't think I really put it all together until I heard the interview.

No, I haven't heard that, actually. I'll have to find it.

I was just really struck by that music the first time I played through, and paid special attention the other two times. I thought the music was perfect for the section.

When I beat the campaign the first time I was watching the credits and saw Kronos Quartet listed and got really excited, then connected the dots. I saw them perform in Seattle last year and it was a fantastic performance, highly recommended.

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Great analysis and Conclusions

by Pyromancy @, discovering fire every week, Sunday, October 15, 2017, 23:54 (2434 days ago) @ marmot 1333

This floated across my Twitter feed today and I think its gonna be good. I’m only a couple of minutes in, but the interviewer already knows her stuff

That was most definitely a conscious artistic choice, one I believe was the right one. That music section is an emotionally powerful string quartet playing while there is close-to-little gunplay. (Played by the Kronos Quartet, possibly the most famous string quartet in the world.)

It's designed to set a mood: When else do you remember ever hearing a string section by itself in Destiny? (I don't think that ever happened in the entirety of D1's OST, although someone please let me know if I'm wrong.) It highlights the fact that you fell from power, lost your abilities, and you're on your own. Even if you turn left and fall off the cliff (like I did the first time) the music keeps playing continuously.

I haven't noticed any other times during gameplay when music seemed inappropriate, as you describe. Perhaps they were trying to accomplish something different with the sound design than what you expected.

These are great points Marmot. Some of it partially deduced from the interview of Mike with Kate Remington from WSHU/NPR? I know personally I don't think I really put it all together until I heard the interview.

No, I haven't heard that, actually. I'll have to find it.

I was just really struck by that music the first time I played through, and paid special attention the other two times. I thought the music was perfect for the section.

When I beat the campaign the first time I was watching the credits and saw Kronos Quartet listed and got really excited, then connected the dots. I saw them perform in Seattle last year and it was a fantastic performance, highly recommended.

Well great analysis and conclusions then!

You will not have to look too far to find it or have to search too far for it, the interview is in the Original Post for this thread and was the original Topic of discussion. I quoted it in this post ^, definitely give the whole thing a listen.


If you can't listen to everything here are some relevant time stamps to your remarks:
:00 - :30 Intro
:56 - 3:31 Background Info
3:32 - 10:44 Track from Game & OST - Journey (feat. Kronos Quartet)
10:45 - 12:55 More Background info

21:23 - 25:00 Track from Game & OST - Lost Light (feat. Kronos Quartet)
25:01 - 27:55 More bits of info about Kronos Quartet

Your analysis is spot on and is confirmed through good observations and questions from the interviewer and great answers from Mike S.
Who knows maybe you were even at the same Kronos performance with Mike!

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That’s one of my favourite musical moments in any game...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 07:11 (2436 days ago) @ Cody Miller

... and I also happen to think it is very “Marty”-esque in its delivery.

Also when you leave the city and are following the bird… the epic music plays and plays and plays… even as seemingly nothing is happening after you kill all the enemies.

So here’s something that I’ve noticed about Marty’s music, and the way he and the team implement it; Marty is not afraid to take the bull by the horns and lead the player, through Music, to the emotional point he wants you to be in anticipation of what is going to happen next. It’s a sign of a real master. Movie soundtracks often fail to do this, and video game soundtracks pull it off even less.

Usually, soundtrack implementation in games comes down to “something sad happens, cue the sad music”. It is too often a direct reflection of what the player sees onscreen. But think back over the Halo games, and think about all the times that your feelings during a specific mission or setpiece were actually established by the music, rather than simply being reflected by the music.

My favourite example is the Silent Cartographer. When the scene fades in, we are looking at a peaceful, serene ocean. It’s quiet, and beautiful. But what is the music doing? Pounding, thunderous drums. It’s battle music, before there’s any battle. It’s brilliant, because it actually changes what the player does next. I didn’t creep out of the Pelican, and stealthily flank the enemy as if been doing all the way through the previous mission. I hit the beach running straight at the covanent and hit them with everything I had. That skirmish is always one of the most exciting and frantic in the entire game, and a huge part of that is because Marty grabs the player before the fight even starts and gets us pumped up.

Back to that moment in D2...

I think Salvatori and the rest of the team are doing the exact same thing that I described above. They’re not letting the player dictate the mood in that moment (which is exactly what happens when you have music that reacts directly to the player’s actions). In that point in the campaign, our guardians have suffered a crushing defeat. They’re traumatized, and lost. Those kinds of feelings are so overwhelming when they hit someone, they can feel all-consuming. You can’t escape them quickly or easily. So OF COURSE the music doesn’t fade out after a minute or two. Of course it doesn’t change to battle music when the dogs attack. Because even through the fight, or exploring the scenery, the loss of the city is all our guardian can think about.

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That’s one of my favourite musical moments in any game...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 09:38 (2436 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I think Salvatori and the rest of the team are doing the exact same thing that I described above. They’re not letting the player dictate the mood in that moment (which is exactly what happens when you have music that reacts directly to the player’s actions). In that point in the campaign, our guardians have suffered a crushing defeat. They’re traumatized, and lost. Those kinds of feelings are so overwhelming when they hit someone, they can feel all-consuming. You can’t escape them quickly or easily. So OF COURSE the music doesn’t fade out after a minute or two. Of course it doesn’t change to battle music when the dogs attack. Because even through the fight, or exploring the scenery, the loss of the city is all our guardian can think about.

Perhaps then I simply don't agree that the music creates the appropriate mood.

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That’s one of my favourite musical moments in any game...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 10:56 (2436 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think Salvatori and the rest of the team are doing the exact same thing that I described above. They’re not letting the player dictate the mood in that moment (which is exactly what happens when you have music that reacts directly to the player’s actions). In that point in the campaign, our guardians have suffered a crushing defeat. They’re traumatized, and lost. Those kinds of feelings are so overwhelming when they hit someone, they can feel all-consuming. You can’t escape them quickly or easily. So OF COURSE the music doesn’t fade out after a minute or two. Of course it doesn’t change to battle music when the dogs attack. Because even through the fight, or exploring the scenery, the loss of the city is all our guardian can think about.


Perhaps then I simply don't agree that the music creates the appropriate mood.

Totally possible, and totally fair. That’s the risk that the artist/composer/designer takes when they are a bit more forceful with guiding the feelings of the viewer/player/whatever. Sometimes to run into a wall or an emotional mismatch and it just doesn’t work for some people. In this specific case, I think it would totally depend on the player’s investment in the plot at that point, and or their willingness to “go along for the ride” at that moment. If someone is feeling less engaged with the plot, then the music can almost get in the way.

I don't think I can express how much I love this discussion.

by Claude Errera @, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 14:42 (2436 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

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:)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 15:06 (2436 days ago) @ Claude Errera

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+1

by Robot Chickens, Sunday, October 15, 2017, 08:59 (2435 days ago) @ Claude Errera

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That’s one of my favourite musical moments in any game...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 15:48 (2436 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Totally possible, and totally fair. That’s the risk that the artist/composer/designer takes when they are a bit more forceful with guiding the feelings of the viewer/player/whatever. Sometimes to run into a wall or an emotional mismatch and it just doesn’t work for some people.

I mean, music is literally half of the sensory experience in games / films. It's not just there to "guide the feelings". It's an integral part of the work. It's only a risk insofar as the act of expression through art is itself a risk.

Music can completely drive a scene:

But so can lack of music:

Knowing when to use music and when to not is super important. And while I'm walking through an area because I don't yet have a sparrow, I don't think I should be hearing epic music.

Just my opinion man.

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That’s one of my favourite musical moments in any game...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 16:24 (2436 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Totally possible, and totally fair. That’s the risk that the artist/composer/designer takes when they are a bit more forceful with guiding the feelings of the viewer/player/whatever. Sometimes to run into a wall or an emotional mismatch and it just doesn’t work for some people.


I mean, music is literally half of the sensory experience in games / films. It's not just there to "guide the feelings". It's an integral part of the work. It's only a risk insofar as the act of expression through art is itself a risk.

Music can completely drive a scene:

But so can lack of music:

Knowing when to use music and when to not is super important. And while I'm walking through an area because I don't yet have a sparrow, I don't think I should be hearing epic music.

Just my opinion man.

Yeah, both great examples. And everything I was talking about with regards to D2 was in relation to that 1 sequence, immediately after leaving the city. You and others have mentioned having issues with loud m, epic music playing on loop while out on patrol... I haven’t noticed that myself (which is strange, now that I think about it. I don’t remember it happening, but I don’t remember it not happening either.).

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Nailed it.

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Monday, October 16, 2017, 13:17 (2434 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

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Marty

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 08:32 (2436 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Wait, just to make sure we’re all on the same page, are you talking about this track that plays during the transitions as you move further and further from The City, fight the dogs, and fail to make the jump?

If so, as the others have said, that is absolutely not a bug or flaw! If your really basing all your comments about Bungie slipping on that then wow. You pretty much need to send the D2 audio team a heartfelt apology. I’m facepalming so hard for you right now. Seriously, it’s embarrassing if you made that big a mistake.

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Marty

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 09:42 (2436 days ago) @ Ragashingo
edited by Cody Miller, Saturday, October 14, 2017, 09:46

are you talking about this track that plays during the transitions as you move further and further from The City, fight the dogs, and fail to make the jump? If your really basing all your comments about Bungie slipping on that then wow.

Stop trolling. That was ONE OF SEVERAL POINTS I brought up. Go back and look at my post again. There is even agreement here about what I am saying when it comes to music improperly playing during 'downtime'.

That particular moment I mentioned did not work for me. I felt it was too 'big'. Others do not. It's not a mistake to think either way.

In my opinion the implementation of the music was not as well done as in Halo or Destiny. You are free to disagree. I am not apologizing to anyone, because I am free to have and express that opinion.

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May I rescind my partial agreement with you?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 16, 2017, 12:30 (2434 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Chalk it up to misreading my inputs and misremembering. There were some tracks that underwhelmed me initially, and it's difficult to tease out my opinion of a piece with whether a moment was appropriately or artfully scored, which was the point I was granting you.

This weekend I played a sizable chunk of the campaign and adventures with a new character on the PS4, and maybe the soundtrack has grown on me, but I couldn't identify a moment when the music wasn't pretty great and appropriate to the moment. (I also highly recommend playing adventures on each planet as a chunk--especially on Nessus).

Marty has an uncanny talent for evoking emotion with music, and the weakest music in D2 is not as evocative as Marty's weakest scores, but that said, when D2's soundtrack is great, it's really great. The Kronos Quartet pieces and their use in the game are absolutely stellar IMHO. And I had no problem with the interstitial music. It seemed up to Bungie's established high standard.

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May I rescind my partial agreement with you?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:18 (2434 days ago) @ Kermit

Marty has an uncanny talent for evoking emotion with music, and the weakest music in D2 is not as evocative as Marty's weakest scores, but that said, when D2's soundtrack is great, it's really great. The Kronos Quartet pieces and their use in the game are absolutely stellar IMHO. And I had no problem with the interstitial music. It seemed up to Bungie's established high standard.

I am not really talking about the quality of the actual music so much. I am talking about when it is played.

I very much like the variation of the main theme in the tower for example.

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May I rescind my partial agreement with you?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 16, 2017, 15:25 (2434 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Marty has an uncanny talent for evoking emotion with music, and the weakest music in D2 is not as evocative as Marty's weakest scores, but that said, when D2's soundtrack is great, it's really great. The Kronos Quartet pieces and their use in the game are absolutely stellar IMHO. And I had no problem with the interstitial music. It seemed up to Bungie's established high standard.


I am not really talking about the quality of the actual music so much. I am talking about when it is played.

I very much like the variation of the main theme in the tower for example.

I know you were, which is why I talked about the blurred line between judging the music on its merits vs. judgments about when it was played. This playthrough I was attentive for moments when I could say, "yeah, Cody's right--this is an example." Didn't happen for me, which was a surprise.

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May I rescind my partial agreement with you?

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Tuesday, October 17, 2017, 12:00 (2433 days ago) @ Kermit

Well FWIW, I will confirm that it does or has happened to me. But it was never a big enough deal that I bothered to grab video or anything, so all you get is my word. :) It wasn't very often, maybe twice at most out of 3 story playthroughs? I don't think it was consistently at a certain point, either. I played through on my 3 characters close enough together that I think I would have noticed an exact repeat.

I'm not counting the falcon bit, I too think that one was an intentional choice, and it worked for me.

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Why Would They Mention Him?

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Thursday, October 12, 2017, 18:15 (2438 days ago) @ Ragashingo

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LOL

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Thursday, October 12, 2017, 22:08 (2437 days ago) @ Morpheus

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Definitely bookmarking this

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Thursday, October 12, 2017, 12:17 (2438 days ago) @ Ragashingo

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