Overwork - DBO Forums

Any interest I had in Red Dead II was killed when the 100 hour story came out, and their PR mitigation was contradicted by accounts.

This is a problem in the film industry as well, and why we fought so hard for reasonable turn around times with IATSE's new basic contract negotiation. This stuff literally kills people and shortens lives.

The only way this will change is if developers unionize, or if people stop buying the games of abusive studios. Clearly people don't care (Detroit was Quantic Dream's fastest selling game), but I do ask anyone here to consider not supporting this type of behavior in the industry.

I realize it's hard to know exactly which TV shows, Films, and Games rely on abusive work hours. But if you do read or hear something, please do not simply ignore it. Your life will go on without one piece of entertainment, and you may help in a small way to make other's lives better.

Thanks.

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As someone who's worked in the game industry for 5 years, and done a fair amount of OT during that time, this whole rockstar debacle is overblown.

Every studio does this.

Every single one.

It's not a big deal. Games have to ship. Deadlines have to be met.

Stop acting like Game Devs don't know how to look after themselves.

I'll be playing RDR 2 when my copy arrives.

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As someone who's worked in the game industry for 5 years, and done a fair amount of OT during that time, this whole rockstar debacle is overblown.

Every studio does this.

Every single one.

It's not a big deal. Games have to ship. Deadlines have to be met.

Stop acting like Game Devs don't know how to look after themselves.

I'll be playing RDR 2 when my copy arrives.

I would go as far as to say companies from all industries do this. When its PHYSICAL LABOR jobs, there is definitely a real problem. Not saying working 100 hours a week at a desk isn't a problem.

Maybe Cody is just trying to say you shouldn't be overworking workers just to add black bars to cutscenes after they have already been done.

Nothing is worse than doing a good job, then someone coming back through making you do it MORE and in a CRUNCH just because some bigwig thought it MIGHT be a good idea. I think they will be a nice touch for sure, but if I knew it was going to cost 50 people a few 100 hour work weeks (illogical guestimation), I could live without it.

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It's not a big deal. Games have to ship. Deadlines have to be met.

Stop acting like Game Devs don't know how to look after themselves.

I'll be playing RDR 2 when my copy arrives.

And this is why it keeps happening. It's not an excuse.

Movies have to be made too, but now we have some protection thanks to the new contract.

It's not an issue of looking after yourselves. Sometimes people have no choice other than to quit and starve.

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Everyone does it, so it’s fine? Sorry, that’s reddit-tier completely asinine logic right there, and it’s not helpful towards actually changing anything. Don’t tell someone who is advocating for positive change to stop.

Ultimately, though, this isn’t a consumer issue. A boycott will not work, and will only further hurt those developers by denying them bonuses if it does work. The only way to fix this is to support and vote for folks that will push for better labor laws.

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Everyone does it, so it’s fine? Sorry, that’s reddit-tier completely asinine logic right there, and it’s not helpful towards actually changing anything. Don’t tell someone who is advocating for positive change to stop.

Ultimately, though, this isn’t a consumer issue. A boycott will not work, and will only further hurt those developers by denying them bonuses if it does work. The only way to fix this is to support and vote for folks that will push for better labor laws.

Boycotts are the only thing that WILL work. Money rules everything. The minute it becomes more expensive to abuse workers is the moment it will stop.

A boycott of purchasing.
A boycott of labor.

Either one will do the trick, but both in tandem are killer. I expect nobody cares enough for the former, so the latter (or the treat of one) is the only real option. But at least I won't contribute to the problem by buying the game.

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Most game developers are out there telling people not to boycott this game (or at least not to do it just to feel helpful), because doing so would hurt the developers you’re trying to help. They may be counting on bonuses that will come from thie game’s almost assured spectacular sales.

That isn’t to say you should just go buy it. If you don’t feel right buying and playing this game because of this issue, you shouldn’t. But that also means you should sell your PS4, because this is mostly just how games are made.

The more effective way to instigate change is to go vote for people that will push for better labor practices. Do what we’re doing now, talk about it. Bring the issue to light. Push for change.

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Every large company is out there doing horrendous shit through labor exploitation or pollution and waste or countless other things. Boycotts can’t fix all these things, because our society is built so that we must consume. The best way to fix these issues is through legislation and policy changes—we can’t boycott everything.

The newest Waypoint Radio podcast dives into this and is a really great starting point for looking into this I think.

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Most game developers are out there telling people not to boycott this game (or at least not to do it just to feel helpful), because doing so would hurt the developers you’re trying to help. They may be counting on bonuses that will come from thie game’s almost assured spectacular sales.

Then the game sells well and nothing changes. Strikes and Boycotts 'hurt' workers in the short term, but not the long term.

That isn’t to say you should just go buy it. If you don’t feel right buying and playing this game because of this issue, you shouldn’t. But that also means you should sell your PS4, because this is mostly just how games are made.

Some crunch is okay, I mean it happens. Unless I hear about something beyond the norm I won't assume anything.

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But at least I won't contribute to the problem by buying the game.

In the article you linked, they asked the employees about this, and even the ones that had the worst things to say about Rockstar apparently felt people should still buy the game, both so that their hard work is appreciated, and that they get bonuses that reflect that work.

This is an employee-side problem. As one employee points out in the article, any one of them could easily get a good 9-5 job at another non-games company. If you don't want to work 60 hours a week, leave or complain. There's no human right to getting to do something you love, exactly the number of hours you always want to be doing it.

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But at least I won't contribute to the problem by buying the game.

In the article you linked, they asked the employees about this, and even the ones that had the worst things to say about Rockstar apparently felt people should still buy the game, both so that their hard work is appreciated, and that they get bonuses that reflect that work.

I think those people are seeing the trees and not the forrest.

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But at least I won't contribute to the problem by buying the game.

In the article you linked, they asked the employees about this, and even the ones that had the worst things to say about Rockstar apparently felt people should still buy the game, both so that their hard work is appreciated, and that they get bonuses that reflect that work.

I think those people are seeing the trees and not the forrest.

As long as you're aware you're telling them that the new pain you will inflict (in lost income and, secondarily, the appreciation of their work) is for their own good.

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But at least I won't contribute to the problem by buying the game.

In the article you linked, they asked the employees about this, and even the ones that had the worst things to say about Rockstar apparently felt people should still buy the game, both so that their hard work is appreciated, and that they get bonuses that reflect that work.

I think those people are seeing the trees and not the forrest.

As long as you're aware you're telling them that the new pain you will inflict (in lost income and, secondarily, the appreciation of their work) is for their own good.

I would have no problem saying it likely would be in the long run.

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I would have no problem saying it likely would be in the long run.

The long run doesn't matter even a little if you can't pay rent or feed your kids.

That's my entire point. The system is broken. It's the way it is almost explicitly to prevent the little guy from being able to take a stand, because the little guy needs the fucking money too much.

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Everyone does it, so it’s fine? Sorry, that’s reddit-tier completely asinine logic right there, and it’s not helpful towards actually changing anything.

Yes. It's fine. Nothing needs to change. That's the point of my post. You want to get paid to work in games, you need to actually finish the games. If your company has crappy management, and you have to consistently crunch to meet deadlines, you should self-evaluate whether the work is worth your pay.

This story has been circulating for weeks, and I'm sick of it.

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Everyone does it, so it’s fine? Sorry, that’s reddit-tier completely asinine logic right there, and it’s not helpful towards actually changing anything.

Yes. It's fine. Nothing needs to change. That's the point of my post. You want to get paid to work in games, you need to actually finish the games. If your company has crappy management, and you have to consistently crunch to meet deadlines, you should self-evaluate whether the work is worth your pay.

And then you quit if it's not? Where do you go? To another studio that does the same thing? Get a job in some other field even though your only work experience is in video games?

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Everyone does it, so it’s fine? Sorry, that’s reddit-tier completely asinine logic right there, and it’s not helpful towards actually changing anything.

Yes. It's fine. Nothing needs to change. That's the point of my post. You want to get paid to work in games, you need to actually finish the games. If your company has crappy management, and you have to consistently crunch to meet deadlines, you should self-evaluate whether the work is worth your pay.

And then you quit if it's not? Where do you go? To another studio that does the same thing? Get a job in some other field even though your only work experience is in video games?

Look, I'm not about to judge someone if they're in a bad financial situation, but anyone working in the industry is familiar with what's reasonably expected of you, and if you're smart enough to work in games, you're smart enough to work in other tech/media industries.

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Everyone does it, so it’s fine? Sorry, that’s reddit-tier completely asinine logic right there, and it’s not helpful towards actually changing anything.

Yes. It's fine. Nothing needs to change. That's the point of my post. You want to get paid to work in games, you need to actually finish the games. If your company has crappy management, and you have to consistently crunch to meet deadlines, you should self-evaluate whether the work is worth your pay.

And then you quit if it's not? Where do you go? To another studio that does the same thing? Get a job in some other field even though your only work experience is in video games?

Look, I'm not about to judge someone if they're in a bad financial situation, but anyone working in the industry is familiar with what's reasonably expected of you, and if you're smart enough to work in games, you're smart enough to work in other tech/media industries.

It was reasonably expected of actresses to sleep with directors and producers back in old Hollywood. So that should continue just because that's the way it is?

What if what's reasonably expected of you is not so reasonable?

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It was reasonably expected of actresses to sleep with directors and producers back in old Hollywood. So that should continue just because that's the way it is?

What if what's reasonably expected of you is not so reasonable?

Really? You think these being forced to sleep with someone is the same as staying late to meet a deadline? That these are at all comparable?

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It was reasonably expected of actresses to sleep with directors and producers back in old Hollywood. So that should continue just because that's the way it is?

What if what's reasonably expected of you is not so reasonable?

Really? You think these being forced to sleep with someone is the same as staying late to meet a deadline? That these are at all comparable?

No, and that's not even close to what I was saying…

Your principle of 'do what they want you to do and if you don't like it gtfo' is why stuff like that was / is a thing.

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It was reasonably expected of actresses to sleep with directors and producers back in old Hollywood. So that should continue just because that's the way it is?

What if what's reasonably expected of you is not so reasonable?

Really? You think these being forced to sleep with someone is the same as staying late to meet a deadline? That these are at all comparable?

No, and that's not even close to what I was saying…

Your principle of 'do what they want you to do and if you don't like it gtfo' is why stuff like that was / is a thing.

Well... if people choose to do it...

I’m not AT ALL defending immoral/exploitive actions. But nobody’s life depends on being an actor, nor does it depend on working in the games industry (the actor thing is actually a bit murkier, because there are occasionally people who have virtually nothing but manage to turn their lives around through talent as an actor... but to work in gaming absolutely requires specific training in a technical skill, and almost none of those skills are exclusively useful in the industry).

At the end of the day, I can’t control whether or not other people are skumbags. What I can control is my own behaviour and decisions when I come face to face with scumbags. Part of the reason all that creepy stuff has gone on in Hollywood for so long is that there are too many people willing to go along with it. If more people had said “no, I won’t do that”, then those creeps would have been SOL (and in case it needs to be said, I’m clearly not referring to those who forced anyone into any situation directly against their will). With the games industry, there are too many people who have put themselves in the mindset that they MUST work in games, as if their lives depend on it. They have a talent and passion for it, and downplay in their own mind the working conditions that LITERALLY EVERYONE remotely involved knows about. If more people were willing to say “no, I won’t work for a company that does that”, THEN the studios would be forced to change and treat employees better.

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I just don't like that line of reasoning. It's really close to victim blaming.

You can like a job and love the work you do at that job, while also acknowledging the exploitative labor practices and wanting to push things forward towards positive change. "This is just how it's always been" and "if you don't like it, leave," are extremely shitty and unhelpful lines of reasoning that just allow these companies to continue getting away this horseshit. It's especially unhelpful, because, as Cyber so helpfully pointed out, this is the norm at many large game companies. So your option is to put up with it and continue to do the thing you actually love, or get out of the industry and do something else.

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I just don't like that line of reasoning. It's really close to victim blaming.

This is absolutely, in no way, "victim blaming". Somebody walking down the street who gets ambushed is a victim. A free adult who goes to school, applies to a bunch of companies, goes off to an interview, accepts a job, all the while knowing full well that the company and the industry at large routinely overwork their employees is NOT a victim in any way, shape, or form.

You can like a job and love the work you do at that job, while also acknowledging the exploitative labor practices and wanting to push things forward towards positive change. "This is just how it's always been" and "if you don't like it, leave," are extremely shitty and unhelpful lines of reasoning that just allow these companies to continue getting away this horseshit.

No. It's not about letting them get away with it, its about realizing that the people who willingly choose to work in the industry are equally responsible for creating a solution. Screaming for other people (customers or the government) to step forward and force studios to change is not the right way to go. Employment is a 2-way relationship. Developers are not captive. They entered this relationship willingly. It is ultimately up to them to change the nature of that relationship if they are unhappy with it (and again, I fully agree that they are being treared unfairly).

I think we both want the same thing here. I'm just pointing out that people have individual responsibilities when it comes to the relationships they choose to enter.

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I just don't like that line of reasoning. It's really close to victim blaming.

This is absolutely, in no way, "victim blaming". Somebody walking down the street who gets ambushed is a victim. A free adult who goes to school, applies to a bunch of companies, goes off to an interview, accepts a job, all the while knowing full well that the company and the industry at large routinely overwork their employees is NOT a victim in any way, shape, or form.

You can like a job and love the work you do at that job, while also acknowledging the exploitative labor practices and wanting to push things forward towards positive change. "This is just how it's always been" and "if you don't like it, leave," are extremely shitty and unhelpful lines of reasoning that just allow these companies to continue getting away this horseshit.

No. It's not about letting them get away with it, its about realizing that the people who willingly choose to work in the industry are equally responsible for creating a solution. Screaming for other people (customers or the government) to step forward and force studios to change is not the right way to go. Employment is a 2-way relationship. Developers are not captive. They entered this relationship willingly. It is ultimately up to them to change the nature of that relationship if they are unhappy with it (and again, I fully agree that they are being treared unfairly).

I think we both want the same thing here. I'm just pointing out that people have individual responsibilities when it comes to the relationships they choose to enter.

In the world that exists today, there are rarely any systems in place that aren't abusing people. The type of choice you believe exists is mostly an illusion. Right now, workers are less valuable than employers. You can choose to go into an industry that doesn't, but you might hate it, and that's not your fault but still your burden to bear? Sounds to me like there's one side of this equation with a win-win and the other with a lose-lose.

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I just don't like that line of reasoning. It's really close to victim blaming.

This is absolutely, in no way, "victim blaming". Somebody walking down the street who gets ambushed is a victim. A free adult who goes to school, applies to a bunch of companies, goes off to an interview, accepts a job, all the while knowing full well that the company and the industry at large routinely overwork their employees is NOT a victim in any way, shape, or form.

You can like a job and love the work you do at that job, while also acknowledging the exploitative labor practices and wanting to push things forward towards positive change. "This is just how it's always been" and "if you don't like it, leave," are extremely shitty and unhelpful lines of reasoning that just allow these companies to continue getting away this horseshit.

No. It's not about letting them get away with it, its about realizing that the people who willingly choose to work in the industry are equally responsible for creating a solution. Screaming for other people (customers or the government) to step forward and force studios to change is not the right way to go. Employment is a 2-way relationship. Developers are not captive. They entered this relationship willingly. It is ultimately up to them to change the nature of that relationship if they are unhappy with it (and again, I fully agree that they are being treared unfairly).

I think we both want the same thing here. I'm just pointing out that people have individual responsibilities when it comes to the relationships they choose to enter.

In the world that exists today, there are rarely any systems in place that aren't abusing people. The type of choice you believe exists is mostly an illusion. I think I'm coming to this from a more pessemistic view than you might think I am :)

It's not "today"... there have never been systems in place that didn't abuse some people. But that's where I'd point out that the systems we have now are the least abusive systems we've come up with. Still loaded with problems, still exploiting people, still in major need of improvement, but it is simply wrong to believe that things have ever been better anywhere or anytime. Yes, the choice I'm referring to has all sorts of limitations placed on it (the need to make a living wage, and potentiall provide for a family, just to name a couple), but that choice is more real now than it ever has been before.

Right now, workers are less valuable than employers. You can choose to go into an industry that doesn't, but you might hate it, and that's not your fault but still your burden to bear?

Of course its your burden to bear... who else's would it be? The vast majority of people across the vast majority of time have hated their jobs, if they were even lucky enough to have one. This idea that you have to "love" your job is just so bizare. It's called "work" for a reason. Yes, a very tiny and lucky few will manage to find jobs that they truly love. But in my personal experience, the years that spent focusing on how much I hate my job and obsessing over finding one that I could love were the most depressed and hopeless years of my life. It wasn't until I decided to find meaning in other areas of my life that I started viewing my job not as a source of happiness, but as the sacrifice that allows me to persue ACTUAL sources of meaning and happiness. And the cool thing is, I actually no longer hate my job now that I've learned to appreciate it for what it actually is.

Sounds to me like there's one side of this equation with a win-win and the other with a lose-lose.

The only way that it can be a win-win for 1 side is if the other side behaves like captives. Luckily, they aren't. Devs are speaking up, and have been doing so for years. This is good. They've spread awareness of the horrible practices that many studios have engaged in. That has, slowly, begun to change the way people look to get into the industry. This is the mechanism by which things have changed and will continue to change for the better.

Finally, I'm totally on the same page as you when it comes to the imbalance between employers and employees in general. Automation is making workers less and less valuble every year. It's a big problem. So far, the gaming industry is not nearly as effected by these changes as other industries, because so many of the disciplines involved in game development are creative in nature. Luckily, that's one thing that automation hasn't replaced yet.

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It's not "today"... there have never been systems in place that didn't abuse some people. But that's where I'd point out that the systems we have now are the least abusive systems we've come up with.

I'm aware. Though that may be true I still find us at unacceptable levels.

Of course its your burden to bear... who else's would it be? The vast majority of people across the vast majority of time have hated their jobs, if they were even lucky enough to have one. This idea that you have to "love" your job is just so bizare. It's called "work" for a reason.

Not only do I disagree, but there are people working right now to prove that idea wrong. Humans love to work. Play actually is work. Great read right here.

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It's not "today"... there have never been systems in place that didn't abuse some people. But that's where I'd point out that the systems we have now are the least abusive systems we've come up with.

I'm aware. Though that may be true I still find us at unacceptable levels.

Of course its your burden to bear... who else's would it be? The vast majority of people across the vast majority of time have hated their jobs, if they were even lucky enough to have one. This idea that you have to "love" your job is just so bizare. It's called "work" for a reason.

Not only do I disagree, but there are people working right now to prove that idea wrong. Humans love to work. Play actually is work. Great read right here.

But reality is the ultimate game…

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It's not "today"... there have never been systems in place that didn't abuse some people. But that's where I'd point out that the systems we have now are the least abusive systems we've come up with.

I'm aware. Though that may be true I still find us at unacceptable levels.

Of course its your burden to bear... who else's would it be? The vast majority of people across the vast majority of time have hated their jobs, if they were even lucky enough to have one. This idea that you have to "love" your job is just so bizare. It's called "work" for a reason.

Not only do I disagree, but there are people working right now to prove that idea wrong. Humans love to work. Play actually is work. Great read right here.

But reality is the ultimate game…

Indeed! Which is the entire premise of the book. :D

The author, Jane McGonigal, wrote this little ditty about a certain old ARG she worked on...

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It's not "today"... there have never been systems in place that didn't abuse some people. But that's where I'd point out that the systems we have now are the least abusive systems we've come up with.

I'm aware. Though that may be true I still find us at unacceptable levels.

Fully agree. I hope I'm not making it sound like I think everything is fine.

Of course its your burden to bear... who else's would it be? The vast majority of people across the vast majority of time have hated their jobs, if they were even lucky enough to have one. This idea that you have to "love" your job is just so bizare. It's called "work" for a reason.

Not only do I disagree, but there are people working right now to prove that idea wrong. Humans love to work. Play actually is work. Great read right here.

I'll check that out, thanks :)

I will say that from what I know (and I am SO NOT an expert, so I could be absolutely wrong lol), play and work are fundamentally different things, both developmentally and psychologically speaking.

"Play" is esentially a learning mechanism. When children play, they are building and testing their ability to model the world. If a child is pretending to be a cat, that's their brain trying to figure out and understand what a cat is, and therefore, how to interact with one. When kids play group games together, they are modeling the world of collective goals, social interactions, morals within competition... all that stuff. Now, that is all stuff that applies to the modern "work" environment more often than not. Many jobs are like games. But that is not their primary function. Work. fundamentally, is the price we pay for knowledge of the future. We don't just sit around doing nothing until we're hungry. We know we are going to be hungry in a few hours, and again tomorrow, and the next day, etc. We learned over time to trade rest or other short term pleasures for work that secures resources for the future. It is quite literally a sacrifice. We give up our time and energy now so that we have what we need in the future.

All that said, things are blowing apart in a whole bunch of different directions right now. Society has advanced so quickly, we're actually running out of work that needs doing. Not on a global level, but on an individual level. Most of our fundamental needs are so effeciently taken care of that the average person in western civilization doesn't need to do that much. We still need to make money, obviously. And money is ostensibly traded for things of value. But most people don't actually have much of true value that they are contributing within the workforce. Most of the truly valuble things are already taken care of. So there's this rise of somewhat pointless busywork jobs that many people end up in as a way to pay the bills, all the while knowing that the job they're doing doesn't need to exist. And that, I think, has lead to a sudden need for people to get out of those jobs and instead find a "meaningful career that they love". And I'm not knocking that idea one bit. It's just that in my view, those jobs and the people who can do them are exceedingly rare. And it's a relatively new phenomina because up until very recently, most work was inherently meaningful because the thriving of civilization and even the survival of the species literally depended on it.

There's a book about all this that you might like: https://www.amazon.ca/Bullshit-Jobs-Theory-David-Graeber/dp/150114331X

But reality is the ultimate game…

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I think we both want the same thing here. I'm just pointing out that people have individual responsibilities when it comes to the relationships they choose to enter.

I don't disagree with that at all. But that's exactly what is happening. Developers are not advocating for anyone to boycott this game, as the thread has pointed out. They are doing their jobs, but they are bringing the issues they face to light, in an effort to get these companies to better their own labor practices.

I do think this is explicitly what the government should be doing. This is what government is for--to look out for the well-being of its citizens. The US should absolutely have better labor laws. Forced (or pressured) overtime without pay should absolutely be illegal. We're talking about making game, not trying to save a life. And this is also Rockstar. They're not hurting for money, they can afford to tackle these issues.

I was in the military, I know what it's like to be overworked and underappreciated. I worked 12-16 hour shifts with no days off for over a month at a time several times a year. And I didn't have a choice. Sure, I signed that contract willingly, but there's no backing out. There was no quitting. It fucking sucks. We can talk about whether its necessary for a military to operate like that, ostensibly in the name of getting the job done and protecting citizens, but there is absolutely no good reason for a video game company to operate under those conditions, especially one as large and with pockets as deep as Rockstar's.

This isn't just a video game problem, though. That's why I advocate so strongly for better labor laws. I recognize that sometimes there is a job that has to get done, and it requires a time sacrifice. But that sacrifice shouldn't only be at the expense of employees. If you want an employee to stay later than they are supposed to, you should have to pay them for it.

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I think we both want the same thing here. I'm just pointing out that people have individual responsibilities when it comes to the relationships they choose to enter.

I don't disagree with that at all. But that's exactly what is happening. Developers are not advocating for anyone to boycott this game, as the thread has pointed out. They are doing their jobs, but they are bringing the issues they face to light, in an effort to get these companies to better their own labor practices.

I do think this is explicitly what the government should be doing. This is what government is for--to look out for the well-being of its citizens. The US should absolutely have better labor laws. Forced (or pressured) overtime without pay should absolutely be illegal. We're talking about making game, not trying to save a life. And this is also Rockstar. They're not hurting for money, they can afford to tackle these issues.

I was in the military, I know what it's like to be overworked and underappreciated. I worked 12-16 hour shifts with no days off for over a month at a time several times a year. And I didn't have a choice. Sure, I signed that contract willingly, but there's no backing out. There was no quitting. It fucking sucks. We can talk about whether its necessary for a military to operate like that, ostensibly in the name of getting the job done and protecting citizens, but there is absolutely no good reason for a video game company to operate under those conditions, especially one as large and with pockets as deep as Rockstar's.

This isn't just a video game problem, though. That's why I advocate so strongly for better labor laws. I recognize that sometimes there is a job that has to get done, and it requires a time sacrifice. But that sacrifice shouldn't only be at the expense of employees. If you want an employee to stay later than they are supposed to, you should have to pay them for it.

I don't disagree with any of that. I don't know what the answer is... but I'm nervous and cautious when it comes to any additions/tweaks to government-enforced labour laws, because there's such a tricky balancing act going on. I'm greatful for the labour laws that we have here in Canada (fairly similar to America's labour laws, all things considered). But these laws, these standards, are a large part of why so many jobs have been driven out of our respective countries. That doesn't mean I want the laws gone either... I don't know nearly enough to be able to make any helpful suggestions on those lines. But there are a few truisms that I tend to return to again and again. For example, when a government brings in new laws (labour laws, in this case), the intended outcome and the actual outcome are almost never the same thing. The government could step in and put more restrtictive laws on US developers, and then the next thing we know, studios all over the country might just move or outsource. Instead of exploitive games industry jobs, there might be no game industry jobs.

I'm not saying that is what would happen... I'm just trying to explain why I think these sorts of imbalances are best solved by negotiation between the 2 parties directly involved (employee and employer). Perhaps Cody's idea of a union is decent idea.

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So many people want to work in games (or movies), that there is always someone out there who will put up with more than you. So take a stand, and you’re out on your ass and replaced. Unless of course it is part of a larger organized push, which is what both boycotts and collective bargaining allow.

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So many people want to work in games (or movies), that there is always someone out there who will put up with more than you. So take a stand, and you’re out on your ass and replaced. Unless of course it is part of a larger organized push, which is what both boycotts and collective bargaining allow.

True, and that's exactly the reason why the games industry has gotten away with it for a little while. But, like every industry, experience is valuable. And studios that are able to keep their most talented developers over the long term are stronger and ultimately more profitable. I agree that taking a stand as a group may be what is needed in order to force change more quickly. That's why I'm potentially in favor of some kind of union. I have my reservations about unions in general, but at least it would be a path that the developers themselves can take to give themselves more leverage in negotiating with the studios.

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Then why are there so few older people in games? Oh I know, because when you get old you want have families and a life and stuff so you fucking leave. If they value experience they should make it easy to be a long term career.

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Then why are there so few older people in games? Oh I know, because when you get old you want have families and a life and stuff so you fucking leave. If they value experience they should make it easy to be a long term career.

That's exactly my point. The games industry didn't value experience properly, and is only recently beginning to do so properly, in some cases.

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Everyone does it, so it’s fine? Sorry, that’s reddit-tier completely asinine logic right there, and it’s not helpful towards actually changing anything.

Yes. It's fine. Nothing needs to change. That's the point of my post. You want to get paid to work in games, you need to actually finish the games. If your company has crappy management, and you have to consistently crunch to meet deadlines, you should self-evaluate whether the work is worth your pay.

And then you quit if it's not? Where do you go? To another studio that does the same thing? Get a job in some other field even though your only work experience is in video games?

Yes, yes, and yes. Not every developer treats their employees the way Rockstar supposedly does. Rockstar’s reputation in this regard is long known and well established (a high profile industry veteran once said to me “Rockstar games are like the Pyramids... we [game developers] all look at them and say ‘why can’t we make something like that?!’, and then we remember that the pyramids were built by slaves”).

We live in a free society (or at least the most free that human beings have ever achieved in all of history). It’s up to each of us as individuals to decide what career we work towards. Want to work in the games industry? Maybe do a little research about what the conditions are like for developers. Don’t like the industry trends? Then go do something else, or start your own company that makes games the way you want to make them. Most disciplines within game development can transfer quite easily to other industries.

“Crunch” has plagued the industry since just about the very beginning. It’s destructive and harmful, and it needs to change. No argument about that. But it’s not catching anyone by surprise, either. Nor is it the role of government to step in with legislation. Successful boycotts certainly do get attention, but as Cheapley pointed out they directly harm the developers you’re looking to help. Ultimately, this is a struggle between employer/employee. Maybe a union is the solution... I’m not sure about that. They seem to cause almost as many problems as they solve.

The gaming industry is still relatively young, and for some reason it got up and running without remembering some of the core lessons that just about every other industry has learned, such as “talent that stays healthy and happy is more productive and profitable in the long run”. There are studios out there who are finally learning this lesson. Slowly but surely, those studios are attracting more and more top talent. It’s not like it’s easy to get a job at Rockstar. You have to FIGHT to get there. Anyone who’s joined Rockstar in the past 10 years should have known what they were getting into. But people still fight to get in so they can have their name in the credits of the next GTA. Do I think that’s wise? No. But people made these decisions freely.

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Maybe a union is the solution... I’m not sure about that. They seem to cause almost as many problems as they solve.

Not from where I am standing. It would be awful working the film industry without Unions.

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Maybe a union is the solution... I’m not sure about that. They seem to cause almost as many problems as they solve.

Not from where I am standing. It would be awful working the film industry without Unions.

That’s totally fair. You’d know way better than I would on that point.

I am paying particularly close attention to the way Ubisoft has shaped their development cycles. They’ve adopted many of the strategies used in the film industry (moving smaller teams within studios off one project and on to the next as they’re needed, keeping everyone working all the time rather than hiring people for 1 phase of 1 project, then firing them as soon as they’re done), but without relying on unions to act as enforcers.

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Healthcare is a huge benefit.

Because you move from project to project, you get coverage through the MPI Health plan in the movie business. So you can quit a shitty job and not lose your healthcare. Can you do that in the games industry if your studio is mistreating you?

Whoops my spouse / child has an issue that would bankrupt us without healthcare. Can't afford to quit! Perpetual crunch it is.

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Healthcare is a huge benefit.

Because you move from project to project, you get coverage through the MPI Health plan in the movie business. So you can quit a shitty job and not lose your healthcare. Can you do that in the games industry if your studio is mistreating you?

Whoops my spouse / child has an issue that would bankrupt us without healthcare. Can't afford to quit! Perpetual crunch it is.

I wanted to support a family and spend time with them...

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All software companies do this. Mine does. The problem becomes when the "crunch" becomes hte standard not the every 6-12 months thing (which Does happen alot). And when you are paid on salary, and they can fire you, such as in my state of Mass, just because you didn't work the overtime they demanded for free, something is a bit wrong. I don't know the full story, but as Cyber said, it's pretty usual. If you don't like it, you can leave. I do agree that their should be better conditions and it should not become the standard as it seems to be more and more with fellow Computer Science people I know.

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All software companies do this.

No they don't.

Source: the one I work for doesn't.

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It's not a big deal. Games have to ship. Deadlines have to be met.

Stop acting like Game Devs don't know how to look after themselves.

It's a big deal if the industry is regularly churning through talent stunting the growth of the industry as more experience devs because they, checks notes, "want a better quality of life".

If the only people who make games end up as worn out husks of humans, I both think the product suffers and that it's simply not worth it.

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It's not a big deal. Games have to ship. Deadlines have to be met.

Stop acting like Game Devs don't know how to look after themselves.

It's a big deal if the industry is regularly churning through talent stunting the growth of the industry as more experience devs because they, checks notes, "want a better quality of life".

If the only people who make games end up as worn out husks of humans, I both think the product suffers and that it's simply not worth it.

Guys, it's Rockstar. They made the most profitable media title of all time. If they don't have the political/financial clout to demand better working conditions, I don't see who does.

And as for the product suffering...

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Guys, it's Rockstar. They made the most profitable media title of all time. If they don't have the political/financial clout to demand better working conditions, I don't see who does.

Wait what? You think the people who made all that money are going to demand better conditions? That's not how it works. The people who make those people the money have to demand the conditions. And alone they have no power.

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It's not a big deal. Games have to ship. Deadlines have to be met.

Stop acting like Game Devs don't know how to look after themselves.

It's a big deal if the industry is regularly churning through talent stunting the growth of the industry as more experience devs because they, checks notes, "want a better quality of life".

If the only people who make games end up as worn out husks of humans, I both think the product suffers and that it's simply not worth it.

Guys, it's Rockstar. They made the most profitable media title of all time. If they don't have the political/financial clout to demand better working conditions, I don't see who does.

And as for the product suffering...

The quality of a game like RDR2 is hardly comparable to anything else because so few games are made at that scope over 7 years by massive teams. It's pointless to point at review scores and act like that means anything.

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100 hour story?! Awesome!

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100 hour story?! Awesome!

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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100 hour story?! Awesome!

The thought of this makes me nauseous

#videogamesAreTooLong

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100 hour story?! Awesome!

The thought of this makes me nauseous

#videogamesAreTooLong

There’s two types of long game.

The kind where the length is a positive part of the experience, such as Persona 5, where much of the hundred hour story is spent building relationships with the huge cast of characters, and improving your performance as a team...

And games like Assassin’s Creed Odyssey, where filler quests, level gating, and padding like an oversized map and tons and tons of grind detract from the experience.

When you don’t have time for either, though, that’s a whole other thing...

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The kind where the length is a positive part of the experience, such as Persona 5, where much of the hundred hour story is spent building relationships with the huge cast of characters, and improving your performance as a team...

And games like Assassin’s Creed Odyssey, where filler quests, level gating, and padding like an oversized map and tons and tons of grind detract from the experience.

Hmmm which one is Destiny?

:-p

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The kind where the length is a positive part of the experience, such as Persona 5, where much of the hundred hour story is spent building relationships with the huge cast of characters, and improving your performance as a team...

And games like Assassin’s Creed Odyssey, where filler quests, level gating, and padding like an oversized map and tons and tons of grind detract from the experience.

Hmmm which one is Destiny?

:-p

I feel like Destiny belongs as the example instead of AC:O. At least AC:O has a story with a beginning, middle, and end that I can get through and move on from. I want to love Destiny 2 but man once the grind sneaks back up I get so mad :(

When will I learn to stick with my backlog instead of Always Online games with grind wheels?

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The kind where the length is a positive part of the experience, such as Persona 5, where much of the hundred hour story is spent building relationships with the huge cast of characters, and improving your performance as a team...

And games like Assassin’s Creed Odyssey, where filler quests, level gating, and padding like an oversized map and tons and tons of grind detract from the experience.

Hmmm which one is Destiny?

:-p

Neither, as it’s not a particularly long game, so it’s unrelated to the topic.

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The kind where the length is a positive part of the experience, such as Persona 5, where much of the hundred hour story is spent building relationships with the huge cast of characters, and improving your performance as a team...

mfw Persona 5

[image]

I have so many games I've yet to start and so many I've started and have yet to finish, and yet I would gladly spend another 100 hours playing through Persona 5 yet again.

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The kind where the length is a positive part of the experience, such as Persona 5, where much of the hundred hour story is spent building relationships with the huge cast of characters, and improving your performance as a team...

mfw Persona 5

I have so many games I've yet to start and so many I've started and have yet to finish, and yet I would gladly spend another 100 hours playing through Persona 5 yet again.

TEMMMMY!!!

I haven’t played p5 but the only way I could consume that is on switch.

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The kind where the length is a positive part of the experience, such as Persona 5, where much of the hundred hour story is spent building relationships with the huge cast of characters, and improving your performance as a team...

mfw Persona 5

I have so many games I've yet to start and so many I've started and have yet to finish, and yet I would gladly spend another 100 hours playing through Persona 5 yet again.

TEMMMMY!!!

I haven’t played p5 but the only way I could consume that is on switch.

It sucked me in and bolted me to my couch for pretty much a month and a half.

A. I don't normally do that.
B. I like having my Switch as a portable gaming apparatus.
C. I wouldn't have played P5 any other way.

I believe you that despite these personal anecdotes you may still feel that way and may even be right, but I'll say that P5 is just so...different to anything else I've ever played.

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100 hour story?! Awesome!

The thought of this makes me nauseous

#videogamesAreTooLong

Really? I'm playing Halo Wars 2 and I'm going to complete the campaign in under 8 hours... I like to get my moneys worth. Mind you, you should delay the story just for the sake of extending the hours.

But like the Witcher 3 I put in about that many hours.

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100 hour story?! Awesome!

The thought of this makes me nauseous

#videogamesAreTooLong

Really? I'm playing Halo Wars 2 and I'm going to complete the campaign in under 8 hours... I like to get my moneys worth. Mind you, you should delay the story just for the sake of extending the hours.

But like the Witcher 3 I put in about that many hours.

When you do is there a way to send a save file?

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We're critiquing a complex system here of which we're a part. We want bigger and better games and we tend to want them around the end of the year. We are a force exerting pressure. We can't boycott and get what we want--boycotting games for practices most studios engage in would, in fairness, require us to boycott AAA gaming full stop. Sure, unionize, and see game development move to more flexible locales. (It's why film crews often move to right-to-work states.) Game development isn't tied to geography by history or climate or anything else. People would move to Antarctica for the opportunity to work in games.

The problem is crunch, and it exists in many industries because we're mere mortals, and we don't always know exactly what will happen. You don't know how hard things will be, you don't know what demand is going to be in our industry, and you often have hard deadlines that can make or break your success. And especially in creative endeavors like making games, years can go into trial and error while you figure what it is you're making. By the time you figure it out, you've got a lot less time/money to make it than you would prefer, so compromises have to be made. So choose: quality or time? You can't have both.

I keep hoping someone will figure out crunch, and I expect/hope that as the industry matures, the expertise necessary to effectively anticipate and schedule will reduce it. I’m sure some studios already do it better than others. At a certain level, though, obsessive commitment is very nearly an absolute requirement of creative masterpieces. Similarly, in my experience coding is the type of work where more can be done during sustained periods of focus than when you break it up. I suspect if crunch didn’t exist, some would do it anyway.

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I also pre-ordered. I'm excited for Red Dead Redemption 2. I'm going to be playing it in a few hours.

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Sure, unionize, and see game development move to more flexible locales. (It's why film crews often move to right-to-work states.)

No. The reason is that these states often have tax incentives for large productions. Filming is still covered under the union contracts.

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Sure, unionize, and see game development move to more flexible locales. (It's why film crews often move to right-to-work states.)

No. The reason is that these states often have tax incentives for large productions. Filming is still covered under the union contracts.

You're the expert. Tax incentives are a big draw. Perhaps things have changed since the 80s in NC, when several friends of mine got jobs working on productions because they weren't union--at least that was what I was told.

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Sure, unionize, and see game development move to more flexible locales. (It's why film crews often move to right-to-work states.)

No. The reason is that these states often have tax incentives for large productions. Filming is still covered under the union contracts.

You're the expert. Tax incentives are a big draw. Perhaps things have changed since the 80s in NC, when several friends of mine got jobs working on productions because they weren't union--at least that was what I was told.

A lot of lower budget films go halfway where the actors are SAG but all the below the line is non union, so perhaps it was that type of situation.

That being said… there are some exceptions. Like, if you can't find a qualified local union hire you can go non union in a right to work state, so perhaps that's what your friend's situation was.

A few years ago, there were no qualified local union assistant editors for a film I worked on in Boston, so one was flown in from LA. MA has no right to work law.

But tax incentives are the biggest influencing factor in where to shoot other than a bona fide script requirement. Most give you huge portions of your budget back and save you more than anything else would.

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Similarly, in my experience coding is the type of work where more can be done during sustained periods of focus than when you break it up. I suspect if crunch didn’t exist, some would do it anyway.

I write hot garbage if I code for longer than 6 hours a day. I've worked 80-120 weeks before and looking back on it, it was such a mistake.

In the past 4-5 years I've focused on managing my hours, estimating appropriately, communicating effectively with stakeholders, and taking care of myself. My code has become easier to maintain and I no longer have nightmares about late night emergencies.

The myth that a bunch of exhausted coders would somehow out perform healthy alert coders is one of the oddest things ingrained in our society.

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Similarly, in my experience coding is the type of work where more can be done during sustained periods of focus than when you break it up. I suspect if crunch didn’t exist, some would do it anyway.

I write hot garbage if I code for longer than 6 hours a day. I've worked 80-120 weeks before and looking back on it, it was such a mistake.

In the past 4-5 years I've focused on managing my hours, estimating appropriately, communicating effectively with stakeholders, and taking care of myself. My code has become easier to maintain and I no longer have nightmares about late night emergencies.

The myth that a bunch of exhausted coders would somehow out perform healthy alert coders is one of the oddest things ingrained in our society.

I'm not meaning to evoke some myth about exhausted coders outperforming rested coders (a myth I've never heard of).

I'm referring to the fact that when I've worked on coding problems, often I've realized it would take me more time to get back into the headspace I'm in, where all the variables are clearly visualized, than it would to continue working until I've figured out the problem.

Conversely, and in support of your point, there are those mornings where you wake up after a good night's sleep with the solution fully formed, as if you'd dreamt it.

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Conversely, and in support of your point, there are those mornings where you wake up after a good night's sleep with the solution fully formed, as if you'd dreamt it.

And sometimes we just need a good shower to remember that we can all count to six. (:

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I'm referring to the fact that when I've worked on coding problems, often I've realized it would take me more time to get back into the headspace I'm in, where all the variables are clearly visualized, than it would to continue working until I've figured out the problem.

Interesting. I am the opposite. If I am struggling to solve a problem, I go home and go to bed. The next morning, it usually seems easy to solve and the solution jumps out at me.

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I'm referring to the fact that when I've worked on coding problems, often I've realized it would take me more time to get back into the headspace I'm in, where all the variables are clearly visualized, than it would to continue working until I've figured out the problem.

Interesting. I am the opposite. If I am struggling to solve a problem, I go home and go to bed. The next morning, it usually seems easy to solve and the solution jumps out at me.

Did you...finish his post? The second half of his post...is this. He defines a spectrum...and you say, huh, one end you mentioned (and which I quote) doesn't apply to me...the other end (which I don't quote or acknowledge, but I'll rephrase here as if you never mentioned it) does though.

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Similarly, in my experience coding is the type of work where more can be done during sustained periods of focus than when you break it up. I suspect if crunch didn’t exist, some would do it anyway.

I write hot garbage if I code for longer than 6 hours a day. I've worked 80-120 weeks before and looking back on it, it was such a mistake.

In the past 4-5 years I've focused on managing my hours, estimating appropriately, communicating effectively with stakeholders, and taking care of myself. My code has become easier to maintain and I no longer have nightmares about late night emergencies.

The myth that a bunch of exhausted coders would somehow out perform healthy alert coders is one of the oddest things ingrained in our society.

I'm not meaning to evoke some myth about exhausted coders outperforming rested coders (a myth I've never heard of).

I'm referring to the fact that when I've worked on coding problems, often I've realized it would take me more time to get back into the headspace I'm in, where all the variables are clearly visualized, than it would to continue working until I've figured out the problem.

Conversely, and in support of your point, there are those mornings where you wake up after a good night's sleep with the solution fully formed, as if you'd dreamt it.

I took what you said and expanded/twisted it. You got STRAWMANNED!

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Similarly, in my experience coding is the type of work where more can be done during sustained periods of focus than when you break it up. I suspect if crunch didn’t exist, some would do it anyway.

I write hot garbage if I code for longer than 6 hours a day. I've worked 80-120 weeks before and looking back on it, it was such a mistake.

In the past 4-5 years I've focused on managing my hours, estimating appropriately, communicating effectively with stakeholders, and taking care of myself. My code has become easier to maintain and I no longer have nightmares about late night emergencies.

The myth that a bunch of exhausted coders would somehow out perform healthy alert coders is one of the oddest things ingrained in our society.

I agree. The funny thing is, in my head I still feel like I'm writing good code. It isn't until I start working the next day that I realize how riddled it is with bad code. And then I spend a couple hours fixing the stuff I did.

I recently was developing something by myself and putting in 12-14 hour days. It was amazing how I could just keep going because I was in that "mind space" that Kermit mentions, but the problem was that I wasn't actually coding well. But that is also me and not someone else. Although I did get a lot of work done, I also made mistakes I had to fix the next day. Overall though I got more work done than I would have if I worked 8 hours.

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YOU CAN TURN OFF THE COMPASS AND ORIENTEER LIKE IN REAL LIFE. [image]

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YOU CAN TURN OFF THE COMPASS AND ORIENTEER LIKE IN REAL LIFE.

I read that as "RDR2 has real sky people. This is not a drill."

And then I thought, wait... I thought RDR2 was like a western style game? Are they pulling a Cowboys vs Aliens on the second one?

ohhhhh, Commas are important.

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YOU CAN TURN OFF THE COMPASS AND ORIENTEER LIKE IN REAL LIFE.

I read that as "RDR2 has real sky people. This is not a drill."

And then I thought, wait... I thought RDR2 was like a western style game? Are they pulling a Cowboys vs Aliens on the second one?

ohhhhh, Commas are important.

Sky People, This is a good DLC idea.

They did Undead nightmare for RDR1. It was the same world, but in its own bubble of Zombie DLC. Something about riding into town on an apocalyptic horse killing Zombies and saving damsels in distress really hit home.

You could even hunt the Chupacabra!

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Just wanted your guys input after seeing all this discussion. Sure there are other reviews, but I like to hear your guys perspective on things.

Graphics look sweet, but hows the story?

Is eating/gathering getting in the way of you having a good time?

Do you feel like an outlaw?

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I've been playing four and a half hours and haven't had any fun. 10 minutes into RD1 I was having fun. https://t.co/ZYcbsWgxI6
— Film Crit Hulk (@FilmCritHULK) October 26, 2018

Just like every other stupid open world game nowadays.

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While I understand his struggle having a kid/time management, that doesn't mean it cannot be fun to other people. You can have fun by being immersed in a huge world, even if its slow. Perspective is key.

Also I asked for DBO people opinions, not the rest of the worlds, and you just gave me a twitter reaction.

Don't hate on the game because of the practices you are against.

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While I understand his struggle having a kid/time management, that doesn't mean it cannot be fun to other people. You can have fun by being immersed in a huge world, even if its slow. Perspective is key.

Also I asked for DBO people opinions, not the rest of the worlds, and you just gave me a twitter reaction.

Don't hate on the game because of the practices you are against.

Hulk is a giant fan of Red Dead 1. He said he'd played 2 for 4.5 hours and had not had fun yet. He had fun in the first 10 minutes of RD1. That has nothing to do with kids or anything else I talk about.

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He’s also not a member of DBO. His thoughts aren’t even in the same universe as being relevant to the question that was asked.

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I've been playing four and a half hours and haven't had any fun. 10 minutes into RD1 I was having fun. https://t.co/ZYcbsWgxI6
— Film Crit Hulk (@FilmCritHULK) October 26, 2018

Just like every other stupid open world game nowadays.

Except Horizon Zero Dawn, which has virtually no filler quests in the story (except that whole Dervahl questline, if you want to get technical). Or God of War, which, while not fully open world, was filled with tons of fun-focused content. Or Spider-man, which, ya know, Spider-man.

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Except Horizon Zero Dawn, which has virtually no filler quests in the story (except that whole Dervahl questline, if you want to get technical). Or God of War, which, while not fully open world, was filled with tons of fun-focused content. Or Spider-man, which, ya know, Spider-man.

I will be totally 100% honest: I didn't really enjoy much of my time with Horizon Zero dawn. There were STORY moments that got to me, but the game itself wasn't engaging to me.

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Except Horizon Zero Dawn, which has virtually no filler quests in the story (except that whole Dervahl questline, if you want to get technical). Or God of War, which, while not fully open world, was filled with tons of fun-focused content. Or Spider-man, which, ya know, Spider-man.

I will be totally 100% honest: I didn't really enjoy much of my time with Horizon Zero dawn. There were STORY moments that got to me, but the game itself wasn't engaging to me.

Sounds like you were approaching it like one of those Tearblast Toddlers that hang around these parts (cough). The game is super fun gameplay-wise if you use the dozen tools or so that become available to you. Starting it on Hard difficulty helped me enjoy the gameplay even more, because you’re constantly having to readjust your strategy as the fight gets worse, or you discover enemy weaknesses or strategies. I love Witcher 3, but it’s definitely one of the less “fun” open world games. HZD completely fixed that one nagging issue for me, and the story starts off strong, but somehow constantly gets better and better. I definitely recommend that you push through. You can beat the main story in about 30 hours or so, 50 with side quests (which all help flesh out the world, cultures, politics, etc.), and maybe 55 with collectibles and viewpoints, which often tell some great stories too.

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I played the first hour of RDR1 for the first time the other day.

It's been interesting so far but I wouldn't say any of it was "fun."

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I played the first hour of RDR1 for the first time the other day.

It's been interesting so far but I wouldn't say any of it was "fun."

Well I though megaman 11 looked like ass, but when you see it in motion it’s ok. Sometimes you never know how you’ll feel about a game till you play it.

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I played the first hour of RDR1 for the first time the other day.

It's been interesting so far but I wouldn't say any of it was "fun."

Well I though megaman 11 looked like ass, but when you see it in motion it’s ok. Sometimes you never know how you’ll feel about a game till you play it.

My point is that I played 50 minutes past when Hulk found RDR1 fun without finding it fun. Tastes differ.

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Story is good so far. You're an outlaw in a gang of outlaws, lead by a relatively nice outlaw feller.

The world is immersive, but it's still the same GTA3 format we have been playing for nearly 20 years. Open world, steal horses and kill dudes, get wanted, evade the cops, go to a big F on the map for Frank's missions, which launches a small standalone cutscene and a minor story which has humourous and dramatic elements. You shoot the same as you always shoot.

You still have to go to an ammunation or whatever for bullets and shit, the store for other stuff.

As for eating: it so far doesn't matter much. It says it does, but I don't do it very often. I sleep when I want to go to the bathroom or grab a drink. If I didn't eat or sleep basically nothing happens.

There was one point when I had a 2 hour long phone call, and just parked my guy on top of a train and didn't eat or sleep for like 5 game days. I then completed a mission; no major effect.

You really do feel like an outlaw. One of the first things you do is rob a train, which is totally boss, and you get a choice on whether to spare the witnesses or threaten them or kill em. I shot em all because we were trying to lay low.

Lots of good fun in the game. Killing dudes after ambushing their hideouts and stuff. It's easy as butts, like most GTA games, but stupid behaviour will get you wasted.

It's a game that's so fun, you WANT to do the extra stuff just to stretch it out. I want to hunt the bear, not for any reason other than viciously murdering and butchering one of God's creatures, and to maybe spend more time with the game. I almost never feel this way about a game.

Bias: I love westerns and cowboys and shit.

EDIT: I will say the prologue is more boring than it is fun. Lots of tutorial, slogging through oppressive forests and waist deep snow with more story than fun. I actually don't know how they left that thing in because I was considering it a 7.5/10 game with a low mark being the plodding pacing and few and far between moments of fun.

The very moment the prologue is done and you set up camp in the real world, it's right up to 9-10/10. Fun wherever you want it, however you want it. The prologue is just much more dull. Bad first impression, but if you get through the first few hours (!) you'll love the game.

By the way, this isn't the acquired taste thing of Destiny, where if you buy into the systems it's fun. It's more like, if you wait in this 1 minute line, you get to ride Pirates of the Caribbean. Except Pirates is 35 minutes long. So it's really almost nothing in the grand scheme of things. That's why the reviewers love the game and initial reactions are sometimes tepid. They think the line is the game.

But again, why the hell would Rockstar leave that line in?

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I was too tired to play much last night.

It’s slow. Like really slow. There is an animation for literally everything. No skipping them. There are meters to manage. I don’t know how intensive that will be. Walk speed is slow.

This really does feel like a game that’s not meant to be “fun” in the traditional way, but is designed to be an experience that you sink into.

It works for me (so far). This is very much how I played The Witcher 3. I can see lots of people not liking it. If you’re not into that stuff, the game will absolutely feel like it’s just getting in its own way, I think. If you fight this game’s pace, you will absolutely hate it.

A good test—how did you feel about the unskippable animations for skinning animals in the first game? Because that is cranked up to eleven.

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I agree on parts of that.

There are animations which can be speed up, but everything is animated and a good chunk of time is spent waiting for your dude to do shit.

However, I consider all of that stuff skippable. I do not need to skin animals, I do not need to cook meat. I don't even really need to eat. I don't need to loot bodies. I can usually press A to run.

That stuff with the annoying animations I consider supplementary, and if I find myself becoming bored with it, I just loot one guy and leave. Nbd.

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You could be totally right. I’m not far enough to judge the necessity of any of that. I’m eager to play more.

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Just wanted your guys input after seeing all this discussion. Sure there are other reviews, but I like to hear your guys perspective on things.

Graphics look sweet, but hows the story?

I'm still early. It's good so far. Interesting. I want to see where it goes. Arthur Morgan (the character you play) doesn't have a whole lot going yet. There are hints all over that he's questioning the sort of life he's leading. We'll see if that goes anywhere.

Dutch is a really interesting character. His voice actor is great and plays him perfectly. He's super compelling as a charismatic leader of this gang that feel like they're mostly doing right by people and just searching for the promise of freedom.

Is eating/gathering getting in the way of you having a good time?

It doesn't really seem super necessary, so no. But, even if it was, I don't think it would, personally. I am really enjoying engaging with those systems. I love hunting and fishing, and the fact that you are doing those things to provide food for your camp makes it compelling in a way that it hasn't been in most other games (Like Far Cry or the recent Assassin's Creed games).

I like spending time in camp, sitting by the camp fire, chatting with the gang members, listening to people sing or just talk.

I am really loving the slower pace of this game. Getting around the world is like 90% of the game. It's a lot of long rides through pretty country, and I love it. I think a lot of folks are going to be put off by that stuff--it's a game that refuses to get out of it's own way. More than most other games, it demands to be played at its pace, and if you fight that, I imagine it will get very frustrating very quickly.

Do you feel like an outlaw?

Absolutely. I don't know how much it really matters in the end, but they set it up well enough to make it feel like it's necessary to sort of lay low and avoid being witness doing bad things. It seems like as the game goes on, you can ignore that stuff more and more, but early there is definitely a tension there, even if it's ultimately a sort of fake one.

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Any interest I had in Red Dead II was killed when the 100 hour story came out, and their PR mitigation was contradicted by accounts.

This is a problem in the film industry as well, and why we fought so hard for reasonable turn around times with IATSE's new basic contract negotiation. This stuff literally kills people and shortens lives.

The only way this will change is if developers unionize, or if people stop buying the games of abusive studios. Clearly people don't care (Detroit was Quantic Dream's fastest selling game), but I do ask anyone here to consider not supporting this type of behavior in the industry.

I realize it's hard to know exactly which TV shows, Films, and Games rely on abusive work hours. But if you do read or hear something, please do not simply ignore it. Your life will go on without one piece of entertainment, and you may help in a small way to make other's lives better.

I agree completely.

I don't think not buying RDR2 really helps anybody. I think it's probably going to be profitable no matter what.

The only thing that can be done is to encourage the actual creators-- the artists, designers, programmers, engineers, animators, testers, VO and mocap actors, rather than publishers and shareholders of developers and publishers, to unionize so we can have a more reasonable assurance that our money is going towards the people who actually make the things we enjoy.

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If the entire industry manages to unionize, the price to buy a new game will go up overnight. No way they let a petty thing like fair compensation get in the way of profits.

I’m totally okay with that. If that’s the cost for better working conditions, it’s a small one to pay. But that will absolutely be brought up to sway public opinion and paint the unions as the bad guys that made your games more expensive.

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Overwork (Gaming)

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Being a good ally.

Being a good ally.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Stop.

Also, I'm thankful for PTO, Weekends, etc...

Also, I'm thankful for PTO, Weekends, etc...

Part of the reason I left the industry

Stop.

Stop.

Not a big deal?

Not a big deal?

Not a big deal?

Yo

I pre ordered it because of this post.

I pre ordered it because of this post.

I pre ordered it because of this post.

I pre ordered it because of this post.

I pre ordered it because of this post.

I pre ordered it because of this post.

I pre ordered it because of this post.

I pre ordered it because of this post.

I pre ordered it because of this post.

I pre ordered it because of this post.

I pre ordered it because of this post.

I pre ordered it because of this post.

Good thread. I pre-ordered.

For whatever it's worth . . .

Best Post.

Good thread. I pre-ordered.

Good thread. I pre-ordered.

Good thread. I pre-ordered.

On coding

On coding

On coding

On coding

On coding

yeah, sorry

On coding

RDR2 HAS REAL SKY PEOPLE. THIS IS NOT A DRILL.

RDR2 HAS REAL SKY PEOPLE. THIS IS NOT A DRILL.

RDR2 HAS REAL SKY PEOPLE. THIS IS NOT A DRILL.

Lol

How is RDR2 so far?

Answer here

Answer here

Answer here